Letters, We Get Mail, CDXII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Christian ]

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:00:48 -0400     (answered 12 September 2014)
From: Christian Lefler
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: The cult checklist

Hi, I noticed this page on your site for identifying cults:

We recently published a similar article with a handy infographic that you may want to link to:

Thanks and hope to be a good resource.

Hello Christian,

Thanks for the link.

You may also like this web page:

  • The Heresy of the Twelve Steps

    Have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     What Frank Buchman demonstrated is that you can simply
    **     make up any kind of screwy philosophy and occult
    **     nonsense that you like and call it Christianity,
    **     and many people will accept it, or at least tolerate
    **     it, just because you call it Christianity, no matter
    **     how far removed from real Christianity it actually is.
    **     They stupidly assume that if you call it Christianity
    **     then it must be a good thing. There are many different
    **     flavors of "Christianity" now, and most of them do not
    **     adhere to what Jesus Christ actually taught.
    **     Economic cults like Amway teach that money equals virtue,
    **     and that making millions of dollars is the key to Heaven.
    **     That of course directly contradicts Christ's teachings
    **     about how difficult it will be for a rich man to get into
    **     Heaven.  FLDS, the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints,
    **     teach that getting four wives is the key to Heaven, and
    **     they still maintain that their church is "Christian".
    **     Other churches teach hatred of Gays and Lesbians, and
    **     yet they still claim to be Christian. And other churches
    **     teach hatred of various "others", like abortionists,
    **     or Jews, or Blacks, or Liberals, and they still claim
    **     that their teachings are "Christian". And other groups
    **     teach a very conservative militaristic philosophy that
    **     is basically fascism, and yet they too claim to be
    **     Christian.
    **     It seems like every Devil that comes around is Christian.

    [The previous letter from Patrick_D is here.]

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Patrick_D ]

    Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:35:59 -0400     (answered 12 September 2014)
    From: Patrick D.
    To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
    Subject: Now I finally See


    Your must have been a philosophy major. I am still very impressed with all of your research and your dedication in proving aa does not work. But your answer on what the answer is for stop drinking and using was self will. I was hoping for more. Especially from you. Your sobriety of not having a drink or a drug for over 13 years is impressive. Your point of saying alcoholism is not a disease is false. Why then does the American medical association think so? It really does not matter what they think either to me but they are pretty smart people too.

    For me why is it then that I could not stop after one drink? I am weak? Not strong? No will to control my actions? Is that all it is? I would argue I showed extreme will power in drinking everyday from sun up to sun down drive to where ever I needed to to get my drink no matter the cost. Get sick barf and pick up a drink within 30 secs since I just cleared room for more and who says drunks don't have will power.

    If you truly think alcoholism is not a disease the. Maybe you are or were just a heavy drinker. But I know for me once I take that first drink I react much different that normal casual drinkers. After 5 10 or 15 most people will stop not me there is never enough. Can I drink one drink today at the airport bar and not go nuts yes I have controlled my drinking many times but I have never wanted one in my life. Why is that? Would you not say my reaction to alcohol is abnormal? Maybe allergic? Or just lack of will power? I could control what I drank but I do not Want to why the only reason I drank was to get drunk and stay that way for as long as I could.

    If you do not understand that the. Maybe you are not one of us. Alcoholism is a disease just like cancer and the others but it can be worse because unlike cancer where you know you are sick and you feel sick alcoholism tells you you are not sick and you are okay only when it owns you do you realize you are sick and dying a slow death. Aa 12 steps are a simple guide on how to love life. Your arguments were false when you said just because there were bad people in church that did not make all religion bad. If that is true which it is the. The same hold true for aa there are bad sick people in aa that take advantage of new comers that is true but that does not mean aa is bad as. Whole. Maybe your higher power is your own will power? I do not know. Do you believe in some sort of god? Or does the world survive only on the sheer will power of the individual?

    Patrick D.
    Iron Mountain
    iPhone Reply

    Hello again, Patrick,

    Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

    Alas, you may not want to hear it, but will power really is a big part of the answer. Every time I refrain from taking a drink or smoking a cigarette or taking a hit of a drug, that is will power at work. And, as you noticed, that has been going on for more than 13 years now. Almost 14. Yes, "birthday 14" is coming up soon. Just another 5 weeks. So will power does work. The trick is to "set your intention", and set your will. More on that later.

    I quite agree with your comment about "Who says that alcoholics don't have will power?" Alcoholics often have enormous will power. I think it was Stanton Peele who first mentioned that alcoholics have steel wills. Alcoholics often overcome huge obstacles and difficulties to get another drink. When they want a drink, they pursue their goal with a single-minded determination that motivational coaches can only envy.

    "Alcoholism" is not a disease. (You have been believing too much A.A. dogma.) "Alcoholism" is not at all like cancer or tuberculosis or strep throat or Ebola. Or Yellow Fever or Bubonic Plague. You cannot stop having cancer or tuberculosis or Ebola just by refraining from eating or drinking something. But you can stop having "alcoholism" just by not drinking any more alcohol.

    "Alcoholism" is behavior. The act of putting a glass or bottle or can to your mouth and drinking a liquid is behavior, not a disease.

    There is no such thing as a "spiritual disease." And you do not require God to get in there and take away your "spiritual disease". That is as silly as claiming that after a witch or voodoo witch doctor puts a hex on you, you must get God to remove the hex.

    The AMA is very dishonest about "alcoholism". They did not really say that alcoholism is a disease. What they did was let a committee of two A.A. front groups write the definition of "alcoholism" for them — "The Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine". The definition that the committee produced is so goofy that it does not even say that alcoholism is caused by drinking alcohol. The A.A. pundits left the door open for "spiritual" causes of alcoholism, like that you got some spiritual cooties by rubbing shoulders with an alcoholic.

    The AMA is not really an authority on medicine. They pretend to be, but what they really are is a private club for doctors whose primary purpose is to get more power and money for itself and its members. The AMA has a very sordid history. Morris Fishbein, the president who built the AMA up into the powerful organization that it is, was busted for racketeering. He wouldn't allow the AMA to endorse any medications or drugs unless the pharmaceutical company paid big bucks for full-page ads in the JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association). Yes, drug approval in trade for money.

    Right now, the declaration that "alcoholism" is a disease is just a stunt to get more money for "treatment centers" from insurance companies.

    We have discussed all of this before. Look here:

    1. Two A.A. front groups wrote the AMA definition of "alcoholism".

    2. More on that goofy AMA definition of "alcoholism"

    3. More on the AMA and "alcoholism".

    4. And more.

    5. Rehashed again.

    6. Here are links to some more articles on the corruption of the AMA

    In the beginning, the AMA said (in cleaned-up language) that A.A. and its Big Book were bullshit. But then they got bought off.

    By the way, notice how the AMA rejects the idea of "codependency". The AMA says that there is no such disease, or actually, more often, dodges the question and refuses to say anything one way or another. The AMA does not in any way endorse the A.A. ideas of codependency or spiritual diseases. They just approve of A.A. members jabbering about "the disease of alcoholism", and the treatment of it for big $$$. So the AMA is rejecting two out of three of the major A.A. tenets.

    Also notice that there is no medical research that shows that alcoholism is a disease. The AMA is just blowing hot air, based on nothing, just like how they endorsed cigarettes as wonderfully refreshing back in the nineteen-fifties — at exactly the same time as they declared that "alcoholism" was an "illness". There was no research or clinical tests that supported either policy statement. They just said what the cigarette companies or A.A. members wanted to hear.

    Also note that the APA, the American Psychiatric Association, totally rejects the "disease of alcoholism". They won't even use the word "alcoholism" because it is poorly defined and politically loaded. Every so often, the AMA tries to divert questions about the disease of alcoholism over to the APA, claiming that the APA agrees that alcoholism is a disease. That is totally wrong, and very dishonest. The APA recognizes two mental illnesses that are caused by drinking too much alcohol, Alcohol Abuse, and Alcohol Dependency. Then they recognize half a dozen mental illnesses that are side effects of excessive drinking, like insomnia, sexual impotence, alcohol withdrawal, and alcohol-induced anxiety.

    Here is the relevant page from the DSM-IV, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association:

    APA page on alcohol abuse

    There is no mental illness or disease of "alcoholism".

    Your line about "maybe you were just a heavy drinker" is a false dichotomy. A.A. uses that propaganda trick to try to explain away the alcoholics who quit drinking without Bill Wilson's cult religion. That is completely untrue. The truth is that the intensity of alcohol abuse is all a continuum, an unbroken range of shades of gray. There is no "real alcoholics" versus "heavy drinkers" dichotomy. Besides, as one pundit pointed out, "heavy drinker" is what rich alcoholics like to call themselves. "I'm not an alcoholic, I'm merely a heavy drinker, having a good time."

    Your rap about drinking out of control is very familiar. I can match you horror story for horror story. I drank until I lost my job (self-employed, and I still lost it), and lost my home and was starving and homeless and eating out of Dempsey Dumpsters, and I still didn't want to quit drinking. Finally, a doctor said, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one." and I finally concluded that the party was over. I decided that I was not going to die that way.

    I think that most of us alcoholics or addicts get that choice, somewhere along the line. Some people decide to live, and some decide to keep on partying until they die. And that's just how it is.

    Then you asked,

    But I know for me once I take that first drink I react much different that normal casual drinkers. After 5 10 or 15 most people will stop not me there is never enough. Why is that? Would you not say my reaction to alcohol is abnormal? Maybe allergic? Or just lack of will power? I could control what I drank but I do not Want to...

    No, it is not an allergy. It is a love affair. You want that high more than anything else in life. The sentence about "you could control it but did not want to" sums it up very nicely. That's the thing.

    Now why do you want the high that much? That is the big question. There are many causes, ranging from brain damage caused by child abuse to bipolar disorder, or anxiety disorders, or PTSD, or ADD, or thyroid disorders, or dysthymic personality disorder, clinical depression, or Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, or Schizophrenia, or other mental illnesses. There is also killing the pain that you are in, including the pain caused by drinking and smoking too much, and accompanying malnutrition. Obviously, you should see a real doctor for help in diagnosing your condition.

    There may also be the belief that the sober life is not worth living, too boring. "Anybody can quit smoking and quit drinking, but it takes a real man to die of lung cancer and cirrhosis of the liver." You can even romanticize it and convince yourself that heroic figures live lives of extreme outrageousness and adventure while ordinary people are just wage-slave losers who go to work every day and their boring lives do not amount to anything. The Lizard Brain line is, "Heck, we're all going to die eventually. In the end, all you'll have to look back on is how much fun you had, or didn't have because you missed out on all of it. So let's have some fun and go out in a blaze of glory."

    Some people also suffer from Nihilism, the philosophical belief that life is utterly pointless, so you might as well get drunk and have a good time. But note that ordinary Nihilists are not driven to commit suicide. Nihilists who drink themselves to death are usually also suffering from mental illness combined with their depressing philosophy. A healthy Nihilist can choose to be healthy and have a good time and feel good. Might as well, since it's all pointless anyway, just a tale told by an idiot, much lightning and thunder, signifying nothing.

    Now this is an area where I cannot tell you what is going on. Only you know what thoughts are going through your head as you take another drink. What you need to do is watch your own mind and find out what you are thinking as you take another drink.

    Now I have some suggestions, common excuses and lines that alcoholics tell themselves to rationalize drinking: old Lizard Brain's lines about how it's okay and will be fun... Most of them came out of my own demented little base brain, and the rest came from friends.

    UPDATE: 2014.12.22: I forgot to even mention the genetic factor. There is increasing evidence that there are at least three genes that modulate the risk of alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction. (Note that careful wording: "modulates the risk", not "causes alcoholism".) One of those genes affects the growth of the dopamine receptors in the brain, which controls how people feel. People with broken dopamine receptors just never feel quite right, they never feel quite satisfied, and they are at high risk of developing drug addictions as they try to self-medicate and fix what is broken.

    Check out these links:

    Then you wrote:

    If you do not understand that the. Maybe you are not one of us. Alcoholism is a disease just like cancer and the others but it can be worse because unlike cancer where you know you are sick and you feel sick alcoholism tells you you are not sick and you are okay only when it owns you do you realize you are sick and dying a slow death. Aa 12 steps are a simple guide on how to love life.

    Again, "alcoholism" is not a disease. It is behavior, just like eating a piece of bread or drinking orange juice, or smoking a cigarette. If alcoholism was really a disease, then you should go to a real doctor to get treated, not to the meetings of a cult religion.

    Alcoholism is not at all like cancer. I have a friend who is dying of pancreatic cancer right now, and he looks like he just got out of Auschwitz because of the chemotherapy, and believe me, if he could get healed by giving up alcohol or anything else, he would. Claiming that alcoholism is a disease just like cancer is a real insult to the people who are suffering from cancer. Have you ever seen someone die of cancer?

    The rest of that paragraph is standard A.A. bullshit. You have been listening to A.A. too much. There isn't a true sentence in there. When I was sick from alcohol poisoning, I knew it and said so to myself. I wasn't "in denial". The A.A. jabber about, "Alcoholism is the only disease that tells you that you are okay" is bullshit. My "alcoholism" didn't tell me that I was okay, it said that I was dying. I would wake up in the morning, sick, and a little voice would ask, "How long do you think you can keep on doing this before you die?" I guessed that I had about three years left. (That was 14 years ago. Good thing that I quit.)

    The 12 Steps are Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's cult practices for religious recruiting and indoctrination. They are brainwashing techniques, which Dr. Frank Buchman taught to both the Oxford Group members like Bill Wilson, Dr. Robert Smith, and Clarence Snyder, and also to the Chinese when he was a Lutheran missionary to China in 1915, 1916, and 1918. (Then the Chinese used them on Americans in the Korean War.) The 12 Steps are not guides for a happy life, not unless you love cult religion and the Nazi Party.

    Yes, I am "one of us", and yes, I do understand. Claiming that "he isn't one of us", and "he doesn't understand", are standard A.A. tricks to disregard things that A.A. members don't want to hear. A.A. is in denial.

    Obviously, you have learned a bunch of false ideas from A.A., and you will need to unlearn them if you wish to be sober and free and successful. That is one of the problems with cults: they make people believe all kinds of screwy things that are not true.

    Now then, here is the Big Lesson:

    What you need to learn is to Set Your Will. It's also called Setting Your Intention. That is, you need to consciously change your will. You need to deliberately change what you want. The problem is not that you have no will power. Rather, you have great will power, and your will is to drink more alcohol. You are doing a great job of it. You are quite successful in exercising your will power. You are doing precisely what you want to do, no matter what the consequences, no matter what the expense.

    What you want is to drink alcohol. You need to change that. You need to become as determined to not drink alcohol as you are now determined to get a dozen drinks in you. You need to change your will. You need to change your desires.

    Telling yourself that you have a disease over which you are powerless just makes things harder, and makes you fail more often. That is one of the reasons why A.A. raises the death rate in alcoholics. The first thing to get through your head is the idea that you are in control of your drinking and doing precisely what you want to do. You may say that you want to quit drinking, but as the drink is approaching your lips, you don't want to quit at all. You really want that drink.

    It is necessary to change that if you want to be healthy, and have a life that amounts to more than just getting drunk.

    Now you might imagine that you want to quit drinking. You may say that you want to quit. You usually say it the morning after, as you suffer through another hang-over. But you do not really want to quit drinking. That is why you do not quit.

    A friend used to say, "Nobody is holding you down and pouring the beer in your mouth. We aren't in college any more."

    So how to change your will? SMART teaches a couple of techniques for "enhancing motivation", which is another way of saying "become more determined to get and stay sober". That is, to change your will and desire to be sober. One technique is to compare the costs and pains of drinking with the joy that you get out of it. SMART teaches an organized way to logic your way through it. It's called a "Risk/Reward Analysis", or the name that I prefer is what accountants use, a "Cost/Benefit Analysis". That is described here and here and here.

    When you see that the pain caused by drinking is greater than the joy that you get out of it, that really takes the shine off of the idea of drinking. So you do that again and again until the idea that drinking is a drag soaks in. It won't happen instantly, but you keep working at it.

    One of the things that keeps me sober is remembering the pain and suffering that I went through, especially at the end of my drinking career. I shudder in horror at the thought of going back to that.

    Another technique that SMART teaches is how to straighten out your thinking and stop driving yourself crazy. It is easy to fall victim to irrational thoughts, and most of us have at least a few of them running around in our heads. The problem with irrational thoughts is that they can make us unhappy when we have no reason to be unhappy. A current example of that is the crazy fundamentalist Taliban guys who say that proper women SHOULD cover themselves completely, and never go to school, and SHOULD never be in the company of a man without a chaperone. When they see a woman with a free spirit, they become so unhappy that they shoot her.

    I emphasized the word "should" in the previous sentence because that is one of the magic words that signals an irrational thought. "Should" often indicates a belief in some moral standard that is just assumed and never closely examined. Most of those assumed beliefs fall apart when exposed to the light of day and rationally examined. Other such red-flag words are ought to, deserve, entitled, expect, and must. Be very wary of sentences that contain those words, because they often contain irrational beliefs.

    Back here in the USA, irrational thoughts can drive us to drink. We can work ourselves into a tizzy and flip out and drink because we believe some things that simply are not true. So it is good to work on your own mind and get rid of the irrational beliefs.

    Now again, please see a doctor. If you have a medical or psychiatric condition, trying to clear your head alone is very difficult. Doctors really can help, if only to tell you what your condition is. My doctor didn't give me much in the way of "treatment", no medications, just a half hour of talking and examining me, and then he said, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one." I thought it over for a while, and drank on it some more, and thought about it some more, and then decided to live. That was 14 years ago next month, and I haven't had a drink since. (Or a cigarette, or a hit of dope. If you are going to live, live healthy.) So yes, it is possible to just snap out of it and change your life overnight.

    By the way, the name for such a short "treatment" is Brief Intervention.

    And check out some SMART meetings. They can't hurt, and you might learn some useful things.

    Here is my standard list of better methods, organizations, and forums:

  • Sensible Evidence-based Recovery and Support Groups

    And here is my list of What works?

    Have a good day now, and a good life. And don't hesitate to write back if you have more questions.

    Oh by the way, I wasn't a philosophy major, I was a biology major who turned into a computer programmer. Go figure.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     When I "graduated" from the so-called "treatment program" at the
    **     local "treatment center" (because the health insurance funding ran
    **     out), they congratulated me for my continuous sobriety and for "achieving
    **     the goals" of the treatment program. That starkly contrasts with the
    **     A.A. dogma that says that you are powerless over alcohol. If I were
    **     really powerless, then I couldn't have chosen sobriety, and I couldn't
    **     have accomplished anything. The so-called treatment is contradictory:
    **     They demand that you go to 12-Step meetings and get a sponsor and
    **     join the 12-Step cult religion, and declare that you are powerless 
    **     over alcohol, but they also demand that you act like you have the situation
    **     totally under your own control, and abstain from drinking or drugging as a
    **     matter of choice.

    [A new letter from Patrick_D is here.]

    August 26, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

    Pondscape with backhoe
    Pondscape with backhoe
    The big dig goes on and on.

    Pondscape with bulldozers
    Pondscape with bulldozers

    Dabblers Marsh
    Dabblers Marsh
    They are drying up Dabblers Marsh, too. Normally, that old culvert piece is underwater.

    Female domestic duck
    The female domestic duck
    At least there is some water left in the eastern pond, although they are drying that one up too.

    [More bird photos below, here.]

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Randy_N ]

    Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:02:57 -0700     (answered 13 September 2014)
    From: Randy N.
    To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
    Subject: Why are you so angry?

    AA has helped millions of people. It's a program of spirtitual progress and not perfection. A large portion of us and helping people and getting better and most importantly living happier lives.

    You are free to write what you want of course but I hope someday your eyes are open. Because they clearly are not open now.

    Randy N.

    Hello Randy,

    Thanks for the letter. Alas, every single sentence in that letter is untrue, just more A.A. dogma.

    • I am not angry, although I do strongly object to a cult foisting itself on sick people and pretending to have a cure for a deadly condition. Claiming that I am angry is a standard A.A. dodge, and A.A. members imagine that if someone is angry, then the angry person is automatically wrong. Bill Wilson wrote:

      It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What about "justifiable" anger? If somebody cheats us, aren't we entitled to be mad? Can't we be properly angry with self-righteous folk? For us in A.A. these are dangerous exceptions. We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.
      Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 90.

      Bill Wilson was insane.

      Oh, and by the way, I am "better qualified to handle it."

    • A.A. has not helped millions. A.A. does not even have two million members in the whole world, and most of the A.A. members are not sober. The A.A. recovery rate is a disaster.

    • A.A. is not a spiritual program, it is a superstitious program. There is nothing spiritual about shoving quack cures and old cult religion on sick people, and lying to them about how well it works.

    • A large portion of the A.A. members are living in misery. You should read the A.A. horror stories that people send me: A.A. Horror Stories.

    • My eyes are open. I'm clearly seeing what is going on. You, on the other hand, are simply parroting some very old lies without checking the facts. And you are in denial about what is really happening.

    Since you believe that A.A. works and helps millions, please answer this simple question:

    What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

    Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
    Or even several years later?
    And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
    How about 11 years and 21 years?

    No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

    No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

    So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

    HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

    Please answer that one simple question while you are saying that A.A. works and has helped millions of people.

    Thanks, and have a good day.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
    **     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
    **     and that your will power is useless, is not
    **     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
    **     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

    August 26, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

    Greylag Goose
    Gus is getting something to eat.

    Greylag Goose
    Gus is getting some rolled oats

    Domestic ducks
    The three remaining domestic ducks

    Canada Goose family
    Canada Goose family coming to get some munchies

    [The story of the birds continues here.]

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Anonymous ]

    From: Anonymous
    To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
    Subject: Genius...
    Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:42:07 -0400     (answered 13 September 2014)

    I hope all is well.

    I came across your work and to is absolute genius. Not only does it confirm what I believed after participating in this cult for six months, it also expounds on key areas.

    My story: beautiful upbringing, beautiful family, privileged and spoiled. I alway had a love for gambling (it did get out of hand at a point), going to AC, gambling on sporting events, and card games with friends. A neighbor and "friend" soon convinced me I was a gambling addict and I must go to GA. I consented. I was 22.

    That first meeting my mind was telling me what does this have to do with a deck of cards? At the same time, I kept telling myself I was being a cynic because it seemed to be legitimate and I was young. The old timers sitting in the back bothered me too. It reminded me of how if your writing numbers and signing clients (I was working as a sports agent at the time), except these people were using "clean time as their track record.

    The coffee and the hugs were irritating to me as well. People would walk up and say let me hug you and I love you. My reply was always the same, "I don't know you".

    I left the GA and they said I'm gonna lose of my life saving and get cross addicted blah blah.

    I stopped gambling for good. Flash forword a few years: working for an investment bank. I was never a drug user and an occasional drinker. I started a relationship with the switch board operation who turned me onto cocaine by placing it over her bake body. I couldn't resist and loved t. Unfortunately, with the jet set life, too much time on my hands, and this woman I got hooked. I detoxed and haven't touched the stuff in 4 years.

    I soon got engaged at 28. Enter this vigilante neighbor who runs this out patient program ice again.

    Whenever I would see him at weddings, in the street, etc. he would privately talk to my fiancée. Little did I know this prick was corresponding with her that I was "a dry addict", that I would ultimately die (mind you I didn't gamble or drug for years), and that I needed to enter NA now.

    As a young impressionable girl — however intelligent — I was forced back into this shithole. At this point, I knew the program was for impressionable idiots who couldn't honk for themselves, however I was forced to go to appease her.

    Every time I would have a glass of wine with a steak she would shoot me a nervous look. I would ask her what the problem was finally. It turns out this asshole said I would have a cross addiction to alcohol.

    From there it went downhill. She postponed the engagement. Until I had significant clean time. Ultimately she broke off the engagement.

    I now am engaged to a wonderful girl (29 now) with a successful business independent of my father, and life is great if I appreciate it every day.

    Whenever I see one of these asshole on the street they'll ok at me with pity and tell me your doomed. I haven't gambled in over 5 years or touched cocaine in 3. When I see these people they fabricate stories that "I fell off the wagon" given the fact that I don't go to meetings and never believed in this garbage to begin with.

    The good thing is actions speak loud. I know I'm doing the right things to improve as a person and friends, my parents, and my fiancée do as well. That's what matters.

    On a side note: 4 people from the [Deleted] Foundation (the program I was recruited to initially for gambling) committed suicide or overdose in the last month — two being close friends.

    Keep spreading the word out. I'm still dealing with the fallout from this crap. Other people that are impressionable and/or have real issues and hard lives might not. so lucky.

    Great job sir, spreading the word on this evil cult and it how's it is ultimately detrimental for 99.9%of participants. It's tragic.

    Best regards,


    Sent from my iPhone

    Hello Anonymous,

    Thank you for the letter and the story and the compliments. I'm adding this letter to my list of A.A. Horror Stories.

    The way that A.A. busybody broke up your engagement is beneath contempt. Those people are insane, going around predicting that you will fail because you won't sing the praises of Bill Wilson's crazy religion.

    I hesitate to even say that it might be for the best, all that I can say is that I'm happy that you found another woman who isn't getting fooled by them.

    They say that they want to reduce the stigma of alcoholism, but then they constantly demean and bad-rap alcoholics and talk about how manipulative and selfish and evil they are, and how the alcoholic is in danger of immediate relapse, so you can't trust one, but he's in denial about it, and dishonest, and on and on... Obviously, that isn't removing the stigma.

    I'm happy to say that, eventually, they will stop predicting your downfall. A funny inversion happens after several years: Eventually they will change their attitude and run away from you. They won't want to have anything to do with you, because you are living proof that you don't need their cult religion or their 12 Steps. Your sobriety proves that they are wrong. They can't bear that thought, so they pretend that you don't exist.

    The Steppers used to constantly predict my imminent demise too, but after enough years, they stopped doing it. When you have several more years of sobriety than them, their attitude changes and they don't even want to think about you and your success. I'm actually hard-pressed to remember the last time one of them tried to put the hex on me that way.

    Now, instead of predicting my relapse, they claim that I was never really an alcoholic. (Because real alcoholics cannot quit drinking without A.A...)

    About the suicides, yes, that is a big problem in the 12-Step cult. That is one of A.A.'s dirty little secrets. Even the devoted A.A. promoter Dr. George E. Vaillant discovered that A.A. actually raises the death rate in alcoholics. A.A. kills more people than it saves.

    The list of stories of A.A. suicides is here: A.A. Suicides.

    Oh well, have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his
    **     own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for
    **     his nation, his religion, his race, or his holy cause.
    **     A man is likely to mind his business when it is worth
    **     minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own
    **     meaningless affairs by minding other people's business.
    **       ==  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Mike_B ]

    Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:13:22 -0500     (answered 13 September 2014)
    From: Mike B.
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Propaganda Hypocrisy

    A Orange:

    I was scanning your "Propaganda and Debating Techniques" page and it was pretty interesting reading until I ran across some propaganda of your own:

    "And then of course there is the recent example of the crazy Republican politician Rep. Todd Aiken who ranted about "legitimate rape", and claimed that women wouldn't get pregnant from "legitimate rape". (I guess only insincere rape gets a girl pregnant.)"

    Now the interview where Aiken used the word "legitimate" he was not perfectly clear, and that was not the best choice of words given his lack of putting enough context around it. But his meaning was still pretty plain. It's obvious that by "legitimate" rape he meant what one would have classically considered rape; i.e. a man grabs a woman who showed absolutely no interest in him and violently forces her, as opposed to some kind of "date rape" where she goes home with a man, takes off all her clothes, starts making out, and then claims she told him no and he didn't stop (which may or may not have been true.)

    His whole point is that pregnancy from "real" rapes (i.e. provable ones, not the he-said she-said drunken rape date thing) is very rare and that he believes that it is because the woman's body is less likely to get pregnant from rape due to stress or what not.

    Whether his ideas about the frequency of pregnancy from rape are true or not, he is not in any way "crazy" for believing what he believes or saying what he said. And your summation of his conversation is a lie: he never said woman wouldn't get pregnant from "legitimate rape" he said it would be rare. (I don't know much about Todd Aiken, but it seems his fault was he cravenly tried to apologize for his comments instead of explaining them.)

    Did you even read the quote in question?

    Even the adjective "rant" you used is propaganda. Did you hear the interview
    in question? Does it sound like he was "ranting"? Or do you not know what the word "rant" means?

    It's a shame that you resort to such propaganda. AA is a bunch of bunk; but when the person exposing the trash engages in his own propaganda, it detracts from the message.



    Hello Mike,

    Thanks for the letter and the comments. Apparently, that paragraph really gored your ox.

    Yes, Aiken is crazy when he believes that rape cannot result in pregnancy unless the woman secretly wants it. — Or "seldom" results in pregnancy, like you try to apologize for him. His mindset is so hateful and contemptuous towards women that there is no way that he should be allowed to vote on laws of the United States. He imagines that if a woman gets pregnant from rape, that it is her own fault because she secretly wanted it, so she should not be allowed to get an abortion.

    Aiken is grossly unrealistic. We have plenty of historical evidence that rape produces pregnancy, going all the way back to the Babylonians. When a conquering army captured a city, they would immediately kill all of the men and boys, and rape all of the women, so that the next generation of children would be the offspring of the army. That was common practice in those days. The Biblical story of Herod's army killing all of the baby boys was just one example of that, not something new or special.

    You try to rationalize what Aiken said by claiming that he wasn't "perfectly clear". Actually, he was perfectly clear. That is the problem. He clearly revealed his delusional unrealistic thinking, and that is what all the fuss is about. There is no way that insane man should be allowed to influence laws about women's health care or abortions. He isn't all here.

    Then you tried to minimize and deny,

    Whether his ideas about the frequency of pregnancy from rape are true or not, he is not in any way "crazy" for believing what he believes or saying what he said.

    It matters immensely whether his ideas about pregnancy from rape are true or false — he is trying to make national health care law based on his crazy ideas. And yes, he is crazy. He is disconnected from reality, ignorant of the facts, and lives in a bizarre world of his moral delusions and misinformation, and contempt for women, and he wants to shove those delusions on the rest of us through the laws of the United States of America. The guy should be impeached for insanity.

    Have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

    [A new letter from Mike_B is here.]

    August 26, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

    Pondscape with anada Geese
    Pondscape with Canada Geese
    That long line of geese is just one family swimming in formation. They had a lot of children this year.

    Pondscape with Canada Geese
    Pondscape with Canada Geese



    [The story of the birds continues here.]

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Larry_O ]

    Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 08:16:44 -0500     (answered 13 September 2014)
    From: "Larry.o"
    To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
    Subject: Your article about AA

    As someone who has spent many years in Al-Anon and seen the experiences of family and friends with both AA and Al-Anon, I hope and pray that very few people desperately in need of help fall for your anger fueled misleading depiction on AA.

    It is nothing like you describe.

    Do you have a home you need to sell?

    Let me tell you what I will do to sell your home!

    Larry O-C-L Realtors

    Hello Larry,

    Thanks for the letter. Well, a whole lot of other people who have written to me with their horror stories say that AA/NA/Al-Anon are exactly like that. See the A.A. Horror Stories, here.

    By the way, Al-Anon owns and runs Alateen. So why does Al-Anon allow old sexual predators to hang out at Alateen meetings? See:

    Why are known sexual predator groups allowed to host YP conventions? See: "Midtown group in DC won the bid for SERCYPAA, South East Region Conference of Young People in AA (in 2007). So these perverts will be running a Young People's conference sometime this year in DC."

    That is not what I would call a wonderful organization.

    Have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **  It is better to be alone than in bad company.

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Charles_H ]

    Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 18:47:52 -0400     (answered 13 September 2014)
    From: Charles H.
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: aa

    I have 2 questions. Are you alcoholic and have you read the big booK?

    Hello Charles,

    Thanks for the questions. And the answers are:

    1. Yes, I am, or was, an alcoholic, depending on what you think that word means.

      A.A. uses three or four different definitions of "alcoholic", and mixes them up, which really confuses the issue.

      The definitions are:

      1. An alcoholic is someone who habitually drinks far too much alcohol.
      2. An alcoholic is someone who is hyper-sensitive to alcohol, almost allergic to alcohol, perhaps a genetic alcoholic; someone who cannot drink even one drink or his drinking will spin out of control and he will become readdicted to alcohol.
      3. An alcoholic is somebody who cannot quit drinking — he is "powerless" over alcohol.
      4. An alcoholic is an insane sinner who is full of disgusting character defects and moral shortcomings and resentments and barely-contained anger, and is a prime example of self-will run riot and instincts run wild and selfishness and self-seeking and the Seven Deadly Sins, although he doesn't think so... etc., etc., ...

      When I call myself an alcoholic, I usually mean definition 2, and only occasionally definition 1, but never definitions 3 or 4.

      1. By definition 1, I stopped being an alcoholic more than 13 years ago.
      2. By definition 2, I will always be an alcoholic.
      3. By definition 3, I wasn't an alcoholic, because I could quit drinking, and I did. I was not "powerless over alcohol". I even quit drinking without any help from A.A., because I quit drinking two weeks before I was ever sent to an A.A. meeting.
      4. By definition 4, I was never an alcoholic. I was always a nice drunk. People liked having me at their parties because I was so much fun to have around when I got high. (But, as one friend said, "Even nice drunks die of cirrhosis of the liver...")

    2. Yes, I have read the Big Book. In fact, I feel like I have typed a huge chunk of it. Just read any web pages like:
      1. The Funny Spirituality of Bill Wilson and A.A.
      2. Recruiting Mind Games
      3. A.A. and Religious Faith
      and you will see that the Big Book is the most-quoted book on the whole web site.

    Have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     And the Lord our God spake, and He saeth: "Shall I give
    **     the alcoholic woman Susie a day of sobriety, just for today?
    **     Should I give her a one-day reprieve from her death sentence?
    **     Should I release her from the 'spiritual disease' of
    **     alcoholism today?
    **        "Well, how much has she been praying? How much has she
    **     been confessing? How diligently has she been working Bill
    **     Wilson's Twelve Steps?
    **        "Nah, I don't see why I should spare her. I mean, I've
    **     been enjoying tormenting her with alcoholism for 20 years
    **     already; there's no reason why I should change things now."

    [ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html#Jason ]

    Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:27:32 -0400     (answered 13 September 2014)
    From: John Doe
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Arete83 registration approval.

    Please approve my account for username arete83. Would you please send me some links that provide proof of the success rates. I'm not arguing the truth of them but if I get in a debate about it I want to have evidence to back it up. Thank you so much for your site. It may have already saved peoples lives. Seriously!!

    Sincerely, Jason

    Hello Jason,

    Thanks for the question and the compliments, and welcome to the forum.

    By "success rate" I assume that you must really mean the A.A. failure rate. There is much evidence of that. Most of it is in the file on The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment. That file is full of doctors' studies of A.A., as well as other evidence.

    Specific items include:

    1. Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking.

    2. Dr. Keith Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.

    3. Dr. Dianna C. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.

    4. Drs. Orford and Edwards, in London, England, found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.

    5. Dr. George E. Vaillant, who became a famous A.A. Trustee, found that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective, and just raised the death rate in alcoholics.

    6. Those sobriety coins given out show that barely one percent of newcomers get ten years of sobriety in A.A., and only one in a thousand newcomers gets 20 years. (And the precise numbers are actually lower than that because of 10-year and 20-year celebrants picking up multiple coins, and groups inventorying the coins.)

    7. Bill Wilson's success rate in the early days of A.A. was a disaster, no better than doing nothing for alcoholics.

    8. A spreadsheet from the Foxhall Group in Omaha Nebraska shows that A.A. has a terrible retention rate. Each year, they take in between 400 and 420 newcomers, and only 10 per year become sober long-term members. A.A. does not really have a retention rate, they have a churn rate. See the next two documents for a good mathematical analysis of that.

    9. The_Mathematics_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous_-_Part_1.pdf — Analysis of the mathematics of Alcoholics Anonymous, using A.A.'s own published documents

    10. The_Mathematics_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous_-_Part_2.pdf — Analysis of the mathematics of Alcoholics Anonymous, using A.A.'s own published documents

    Have a good day now.

    == Orange

    *             [email protected]        *
    *         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
    *          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
    **     'After all, facts are facts, and although we may quote one
    **     to another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman,
    **     "Lies — damn lies — and statistics," still there are some
    **     easy figures the simplest must understand, and the astutest
    **     cannot wriggle out of.'
    **       ==  Leonard Henry Courtney, the British economist and politician
    **          (1832-1918), later Lord Courtney, New York, August 1895.  

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    Last updated 27 December 2014.
    The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters412.html