Letters, We Get Mail, CCXLVIX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Royski_W ]

Date: Fri, July 15, 2011 12:26 pm     (answered 16 July 2011)
From: "royski w."
Subject: hi

hello again orange i heard that since 1992 AA has lost over 600,000 members it gladdens my heart to hear this ,

Hello again, Royski,

Thanks for the note. I think that number is about right. I've heard similar things too. That number is hard to calculate, and it depends on what you mean. Personally, at this point, I don't trust the numbers from the A.A. headquarters. I think they are fudging the numbers to cover up the decline.

Then we have the big question of what constitutes members, and members lost. The spreadsheet from Omaha, Nebraska, comes to mind. They have a "Foxhall Group" there, and a member produced a spreadsheet that purported to show what a great success A.A. was. That was a big mistake. The numbers really revealed that A.A. there was a collosal failure. Each year, year after year, they took in over 400 newcomers, and ended up only keeping about 10 of them each year. Worst yet, in the last year for which they gave complete numbers, they actually lost 14 oldtimers. So after a year of recruiting, and going to meetings and "working the Steps", and holding hands and praying, they had a net loss of 4 members. 421 new members came in, and they ended up with 4 fewer members.

So mathematically, the question is, "Did they lose 4 members that year, or 425?" It depends on how you look at it, and whom you count as a member, and how you count, and how long somebody has to be a member before they count as a member. The one thing that is for sure is that A.A. is shrinking, not growing, in spite of all of the illegal coerced recruiting.

Oh, and you should also see this analysis of the A.A. churn rate. Another fellow who was a member of A.A. for a long time noticed that A.A. did not even have a 5% retention rate; it just had a "churn rate" — many newcomers in, many newcomers gone. Check it out. His mathematical analysis is quite good, and he shows that if A.A. actually had even a 5% retention rate, that it would be growing, not shrinking. But it's shrinking.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "As a matter of fact, the successful worker [A.A. recruiter]
**     differs from the unsuccessful one only in being lucky about
**     his prospects. He simply hits cases who are ready and able
**     to stop at once."
**         ==  Bill Wilson, describing A.A. recruiting successes in
**          'PASS IT ON', The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A.
**           message reached the world, page 252.

[The next letter from Royski is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Fri, July 15, 2011 4:18 pm     (answered 17 July 2011)
From: Bob O.
Subject: Future generations

Mister T,

Thank you for all you do. I enjoy reading your site. I do not remember what you said you feed your birds or how you get it. Every Friday a church sends private cars and trucks to supermarkets and bagel stores who donate out-dated or soon to be expired bread and cake. The church then allows anyone who wants some to take two large bags each and at least one cake. I get there near the end of the two hours they are open and take some bread which I feed to the birds. Most of the year only small birds eat with me but if there has been a deep snow Seagulls like a bagel. You might ask locally for an old bread donation for your birds.

I do not remember if I asked you this but what do you think future generations will think of the 12-step cults, even after they are gone I expect they will have left debris?

Thank you again,
Long Island Bob O.

Hello again, Bob,

I have also scrounged bread for the geese at various give-away places like churches and charity places. After people have taken what they want, I take the left-overs, rather than let them go into the trash can. Also, places that feed the homeless throw away huge amounts of bread after each meal because they must discard the half-eaten loaves. Once it's been opened and touched by people, it's considered contaminated, and trash. So after the meal was over, I'd get the leftovers for the geese. The people there don't mind at all. They'd rather see the bread used than thrown into the dumpster.

The best bread for the geese is soft whole wheat. The bagels are a little hard for them to chew. They still eat them, but they have difficulties, and the little goslings really have problems with tough chewy bagels. Geese have no teeth, of course, and they actually have rather soft mouths. Their natural diet is soft shoots of fresh grass. So they like soft bread.

I am told that we should avoid giving the geese rye bread. Geese, I hear, are susceptible to ergotamine poisoning. That comes from the ergot fungus that likes to grow on rye grain, which produces blackened "smutty" rye. If some rye that was infected with ergot fungus got included in the rye that got made into rye bread, then it could sicken the geese. Personally, I think that the danger is very small, but it's still a better practice to avoid the rye, and just give them other grains. I've fed the geese rye bread, and they suffered no ill effects, but still, I'd rather not make a practice of pushing my luck.

If you don't have bread, oatmeal, rice, and cracked corn also work. The geese are really happy with just about any kind of grain. Grain is really just grass seed, when you come right down to it, and the geese know all about grass seed. They love to pick the seed off of the grass because it's a richer source of nourishment than just the blades of grass. And of course the geese have been sitting in swamps and eating the wild rice for about a million years.

The geese also like treats. The goslings really go nuts over sweet sticky cinnamon rolls. The goslings are no different from human children, and they love sweets and exotic tastes like cinammon. I don't give them a lot of junk food, but a little treat now and then doesn't hurt them.

I have heard that chocolate is toxic to them. [to some birds, that is.] I don't know if that is true, but that is what I have heard, so I'd steer clear of the chocolate too. But otherwise, the geese love all kinds of junk food, ranging from Fritos corn chips to popcorn to potato chips to cookies and cakes. They are only human, and they like tasty munchies too.

About the future legacy of A.A.: That's a good question. I suspect that eventually, A.A. will fade out and disappear. That's just my guess. There is no good reason for A.A. to continue to exist when it doesn't have a cure that works. A.A. could continue as a cult religion, but why? As a cult religion, A.A. isn't particularly attractive. It doesn't even have a complete theology that includes a guaranteed ticket to Heaven. I suspect that A.A. will join the ranks of the Dukhobors and the Shakers and such religious cults that we never hear of any more. For that matter, Dr. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group, aka Moral Re-Armament, aka Initiatives for Change, has already faded into obscurity too. And that's exactly the same theology as Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. will follow its father to the grave.

But I think it will still take some time. Right now we have the big problem that courts are still sentencing people to A.A. meetings, and parole officers even demand that parolees get sponsors. Never mind the fact that it's illegal and unConstitutional, it's still happening. So it will take some time to get rid of A.A. But I think it will happen. Eventually, A.A. will join the snake pit and bleeding as "treatments" for "diseases".

Now I think that there may be some lingering memes from A.A. that will take a long time to be refuted and discarded and pass from the public consciousness. Things like,

  1. Nobody can do it alone. You need a "support group".
  2. Support groups really work to get people over addictions, so every addict "needs a meeting".
  3. People are "powerless" over drugs, alcohol, addictions, and temptations.
  4. The individual people are too stupid to manage their own lives, and need a führer, leader, sponsor, or a "higher power" to supervise them.
  5. There is something wrong with you if you have a resentment or get angry.
  6. Criticizing people who do wrong things is also wrong. "Whenever you point a finger at someone else, there are three pointed back at you."
  7. Bad habits are "diseases".
  8. Nobody ever really fully recovers.
  9. People who suffer from mental illnesses or addictions have "spiritual diseases".
  10. Confessing your sins to a group of people will fix addictions and other mental problems.
  11. For every problem, there is a simplistic slogan that gives the answer.
  12. The practices of Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's cult religion have saved millions of lives.
  13. The same God that let you sit in a bar and blabber mindless drivel to other drunks for 20 years will immediately make you stop drinking when you go to A.A. meetings and blabber mindless drivel to other drunks.

So how will A.A. be thought of in the distant future? I don't think it will be thought of at all. It will be as utterly forgotten as the religions of the Sumerians and the Babylonians and the Aztecs. Those few scholars who dig through old books will probably regard Alcoholics Anonymous as just another ancient superstition and quack cure.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The principles of Washington's farewell address are still sources
**     of wisdom when cures for social ills are sought. The methods of
**     Washingtons's physicians, however, are no longer studied.
**         == Thurman Arnold

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23. continued:

Saturday Market
Saturday Market, Portland, Oregon
[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Daniel ]

Date: Sat, July 16, 2011 12:02 pm     (answered 19 July 2011)
From: "Daniel"
Subject: A.A in México

Hi Agent O greetings from Mexico

I've been sober for now 10 years and thank a.a. but lately my home group has been very very hostile and it's been hard for me when I got there it was never like this, and I've been reading your work for 3 yrs. and I think that the truth has to come out for the sake of the people who go to these places. I don't go now for 5 month because I have better things to do in my life and with my family and there is a life outside of a.a. but the people there say "If u don't come to your meetings don't ask why u slipped."

I think not and another thing, one time I was talking about bill "spiritual experience o awaking" it was the belladonna kicking in. You should have seen what they said to me (that's not true from our founder, that saint no way José) and all that shit. They don't what to hear something that is true about him and got almost kicked out of that group. Oh well I think that I'm free. don't know yet. I don't want to go back to that lie. now I have character to decide to say yes or no to the first tequila.

jaja well just wanted to hi and my 2 cent about a.a.



p.s do u have info about a.a. in México how it started who the first a.a. all the nine yards

Hi Danny,

Gracias for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Yes, they just don't want to know the truth, do they?

I don't know a lot about the organization of A.A. in Mexico other than the fact that there are two A.A. organizations in Mexico, and only one of them got legally approved by the corrupt A.A. leaders in New York City, which led to one of them suing the other in a court in Mexico. Some good-hearted people, who called themselves "Seccion Mexicana", were publishing their own books, reprinting old out-of-copyright first editions of the A.A. "Big Book", and giving them away or selling them very cheaply. The New York A.A. leaders and their chosen Mexican accomplices, "Central Mexicana", sued, and committed perjury, claiming that the Big Book was still under copyright, because it was written and copyrighted rather recently by a man named "Wyne Parks".

Here is the fraudulent copyright certificate: orange-AAWS-005.gif

You can read about the story here: AAWS perjury.

Part of the story is also explained here: orange-pamphlet2.html

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The art of government consists in taking as much money
**    as possible from one class of the citizens to give to
**    the other.
**       ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Boozer ]

Date: Sat, July 16, 2011 6:36 pm     (answered 19 July 2011)
From: "boozer"
Subject: Incredible

I ran across your site a number of years ago. An AA archivist friend of mine gave me the information. He said, "Take a look. I think you will find it of interest. Since then, I often refer AA people to your Orange Papers. Did so again today. I continue to do this because within your letters and research is a wealth of information. But, before referring people to your site I do forewarn them; "Don't be put off by the anger and hostility you find there. Read the information that has been researched and try to ignore the emotionally charged opinions."

I've been sober off of dangerous narcotics for Crohn's disease, along with alcohol for close to 28 years. I'm also a mental health-care provider who has been in the field for 26 years and I've published dozens of books in various fields of study. After all of these years AA is still a big part of my life.

There are those of us in the fellowship who agree with many of your analysis of the program and it's founders. Sadly, you appear to have "lumped" all AAs into the same category. We are not seen as anything other than narrow minded "cult" followers who are incapable of independent thought. After sharing an interesting observation, you then tend to judge anyone who admits to having found success in the program.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. Criticism is always important. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Bill W. was a very active tortured sexual addict with a bipolar disorder. Some of the best authors I know past and present, are sexually addicted bipolar sufferers. My concern is this "lumping" mentality. You accuse all AAs as being "all" or "none" thinkers, but isn't that what you are doing when you take away our sense of individuality?

When you do this you lose credibility with those of us who not only have found AA personally useful, but as archivists and researchers are interested in knowing the "whole" story about the program with the help of sources such as yourself.

Because I'm a somewhat public person I will not be giving my name.

Hello Boozer,

Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the compliments.

I really don't lump all A.A. members together, or stereotype them all. I work very hard at not stereotyping them, and claiming that they are all just the same, and have often said that we can't just stereotype A.A. members. Once again, just recently, I was congratulating a good-hearted A.A. member for being a member of the "Newcomer Rescue League". Look here.

Now you are right that I have some real hostility towards those people who knowingly deceive newcomers and foist quack medicine on very sick people, and lie to them about how great it works. That is really a crime. Above all, those sick people need the truth.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     I believe, if we take habitual drunkards as a class, their heads
**     and their hearts will bear an advantageous comparison with those
**     of any other class.
**           ==  Abraham Lincoln

[The previous letter from AnythingbutAA is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#AnythingbutAA ]

Date: Sun, July 17, 2011 2:46 am     (answered 19 July 2011)
From: "AnythingbutAA"
Subject: "unconditional love"

Hi Orange

I got up this morning and after coffee I checked my 'phone. On it was a message from someone I used to see quite regularly in the "rooms".

I quote:

"Hi Pal Hope ur ok and enjoying the rain. I'm off to Gatwick (airport) to drop off an Irish couple who stayed with us for a week. They're really old and good friends but sadly Paul is an active alcoholic. He got pissed last night so wife and I had to have a word today. Very eerie and unsettling as it reminds me of me. Will have no more contact unless he gets to meetings and accepts he is an alcoholic"

Aside from the fact that he doesn't extend the same courtesy to me as I haven't been to meetings for a good year or so, I thought this message was both interesting and revealing on a number of different levels.

The first thing that struck me was the lie they give you that you are the only one who can say you're an alcoholic. I was confused about what an alcoholic actually was after a couple of their meetings. They seemed to mean it being anything from an unfortunate victim with a disease to a morally bankrupt psychopath. However, I was reassured by the generally expressed view that you could decide for yourself. However, when I expressed the view that perhaps I wasn't an alcoholic I got some very disapproving looks. In addition, without even a cursory enquiry about my personal history I was constantly told :

You're better off "in here" pretending you are [an alcoholic], than "out there" pretending you're not.

The author of the text message attributes AA's opaque notion of "alcoholism" to his "old and good friend" without even thinking about it being a matter of personal choice whether someone wants to label himself an alcoholic or not. That's because it isn't a matter of personal choice to take that label, is it? It seems to me that anybody who walks in to the "rooms" is an "alcoholic".

The only people who aren't alcoholics are those that leave AA. Someone leaves and moderates his/her drinking they weren't alcoholics. If people give up drinking and don't kill themselves or go to prison they weren't alcoholics either. (Or you can declare them a "dry drunk", I suppose). There is also the hope that after someone leaves some disaster will strike them and they will drink themselves to death or end it all in some other miserable way. Then they were alcoholics, and that's what happens to alcoholics who leave AA (though if they stay and end it all, they just weren' t "working the programmme"). Funny how AA is never wrong and always the winner, isn't it?

Anyway, back to the text message. The callousness of his approach astounds me, especially coming from a member of an organisation claiming to espouse the principle of "unconditional love". He has an "old and good friend" to stay, knowing that the chap likes a drink, and then proceeds to humiliate him the next morning after he's had a few the night before. After a whole week! That doesn't sound much like an alcoholic to me. However, assuming he is an alcoholic, what is the AA's first reaction? It is to ostracise, humiliate and abandon his longstanding friend unless he tows the line. Does that sound like "unconditional love" to you, Orange?

It just seems "eerie" to me.

All the best and keep up the good work.


Hello AnythingbutAA,

Thanks for the letter. You make a bunch of good points there. Yes, the condemnation and ostracism of that fellow who drank a few too many is really obnoxious. If that dogmatic fundamentalist A.A. member really felt any kind of love, unconditional or otherwise, towards the drinker, he would never have considered cutting the guy off and not communicating with him any more. He would have thought about what he could do to really help the guy.

This slogan is actually new to me:

"You're better off in here pretending you are an alcoholic, than out there pretending you're not."
so I'm adding it to my list. That slogan is especially clever in teaching several false ideas and standard cult attitudes all in a single one-liner:
  1. Be dishonest. Pretend. It's good to do. (Never mind that much-advertised "rigorous honesty" and "Absolute Honesty".)
  2. Fear mongering: you will die out there.
  3. Separatism: there is an "in here", and there is an "out there".
  4. You will find the answer to your problems only inside of this cult, not "out there".
  5. We have the panacea (and "they" don't).

Your comments about the definition of an alcoholic are so true, too. We were talking about that before, so I listed the various definitions of "an alcoholic" here.

I have also been accused of not being a real alcoholic because I quit drinking, and stay quit, without A.A. It sure is funny how you can have everybody from your ex-wife to your friends to your doctor to A.A. members all telling you that you are an alcoholic, but the minute that you quit drinking without parrotting the religion of Bill Wilson, suddenly you were never really an alcoholic at all.

It's almost funny. I can almost laugh about it.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Wouldn't it be terrible if I quoted some reliable statistics
**     which prove that more people are driven insane through
**     religious hysteria than by drinking alcohol?
**        ==  W. C. Fields

[The next letter from AnythingbutAA is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Devastated ]

Date: Sun, July 17, 2011 4:14 pm     (answered 19 July 2011)
From: "Devastated in Denver"
Subject: could use some help

Dear Orange,

We have a son, about 20 years old. He is involved in SLAA. We are clear on the cult aspects of the situation. He is destroying his life and causing a great deal of pain in ours by exercising the prescribed "treatments". We feel that we are very close to losing him.

We are looking for former SLAA or other 12-step followers in the Denver, Colorado area who have escaped the influence and have moved on to successful and healthy lives.

Any information, resources, or referrals would be appreciated.


Devastated in Denver

Hello Devastated in Denver,

I don't know of any ex-SLAA members, but I'll post this letter and pass on any responses to you. Hopefully we will get a few responses.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    There are some remedies worse than the disease.
**      ==  Syrus,  42 B.C.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Mary_C ]

Date: Mon, July 18, 2011 10:04 am     (answered 19 July 2011)
From: "Mary C."
Subject: hi

Hi Orange,

I just discovered your site about AA by googling "bill w spiritual experience, atheist." I'm always interested in alternative views of the program. I have alcoholism in my family, and I go to Alanon. But I am a nontheist (I prefer that to the inflammatory atheist).

So, I take what I like, and leave the rest, as the program advises.

I am very intrigued by all of your writing and research.

I am sorry that there is such a sarcastic tone, though often funny. I get why; I imagine if you are struggling with these issues, it can make you angry. I was raised Catholic, and it took years for anger to go away.

The reason I am sorry for your tone, is because I feel that your work should have a higher profile.

I believe there are many people who need the program, or who come and leave, who are not buying the religious part. I myself have huge blocks. Even though they say "God as we understood Him" it really brings a Judeo-Christian God to mind. A male God.

Hard to get around that.

Anyway, you may have read Christopher Hitchens book atheism and religion God Is Not Great.

He has tons of good stuff in there, but his aggressive, polemic tone seems an unfortunate barrier.

It makes people see the writer as on the defensive.

Can you edit your online book and send it to publishers?


Hello Mary,

Thanks for the letter. About the sarcasm, I try to keep it down to a minimum, but I must confess that sometimes I do succumb to temptation and let the cult have it now and then. Considering the harm that they do with their lying about how great the A.A. program works, I think they deserve a few caustic remarks. I don't expect my attitude to change much.

And actually, if you dislike sarcastic put-downs, you should hate Al-Anon:

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."
How Al-Anon Works for Familites and Friends of Alcoholics, Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, 1995, page 195.

      Once upon a time there was an Enormous Thumb belonging to a woman with an Alcoholic Husband and Three Teenaged Children.
      The four of them lived under her thumb, so of course they couldn't do much growing up. ...
One Day At A Time In Al-Anon, Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, 1990, page 286.

I have to strongly disagree with your statement that some people "need" the Al-Anon program. I don't think that they need it any more than people need Scientology or the Moonies. All that Al-Anon teaches is completely untrue cult religion and very bad psychotherapy. Look here for some of the obnoxious Al-Anon teachings about how bad alcoholics' wives are.

And then look here for more.

Buchmanism is just not a good philosophy. Surely you can find another social group or "self-help" group that is less poisonous.

About Christopher Hitchens, yes, I love him and I think I've read "God Is Not Great". I know I checked it out of the library, but can't remember if I finished it before I had to return it, because someone else had a hold on it. It's a popular book. Yes, he makes a lot of good points and I agree with him on a lot of stuff. I find that I often enjoy the diatribes of atheists, because they at least try to make sense. They don't try to pass off stupid superstitions as "faith".

Oddly enough though, I am personally not an atheist. I got psychedelically blasted into other dimensions too many times and saw too much to ever be able to assume that this one tiny reality is all that there is. Of course I don't put much stock in the superstitions of some goat-herders who lived in the Sinai desert four thousand years ago, but that's another matter.

About the Orange Papers book, it's just a matter of work load. I've been asked to make a dead-tree edition of the Orange Papers several times, and have thought about it, and am still thinking about it. But basically it just looks like a ton of work.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I will realize that, even in doing nothing about my problems,
**     I am actively practicing the Al-Anon idea."
**       ==  One Day at a Time in Al-Anon, p. 143

[The next letter from Mary is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Zodiac ]

Date: Mon, July 18, 2011 12:03 pm     (answered 20 July 2011)

Did you get enough attention yet? who hurt you?
— zodiac

Hello, BIG DUMMY, or Zodiac,

(You picked that name; I didn't.) The real question is, do you feel better now? Does going into denial and ignoring the facts make you feel better? Do you really believe that the only reason why someone could criticize quack medicine and fraud is because they got hurt? What about the welfare of the sick people?

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
**         ==  Mark Twain (1835—1910)

[The next letter from Zodiac is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Andrew_M ]

Date: Tue, July 19, 2011 12:24 am     (answered 20 July 2011)
From: "Andrew M."
Subject: Was Carl Jung's ancestor an illuminatus?

Hi Orange

I know from your writings that you are familiar with the works of Richard Noll, such as one which (at least in the UK paperback edition) is entitled "The Jung Cult, Origins of a Charismatic Movement", which discusses proto-fascist neo-pagan movements and strands of Teutonic occultism that were strong influences on both Nazi ideology and Jungian psychology. I understand that you are a fluent German reader. Although you may consider it very tangential to the direction your own research has taken so far, you may be interested to know that a serious researcher has gone to the trouble of accessing the extant original documents of the Bavarian Illuminati, photographing them, translating them into English and making them available free on his website.

One of the subjects which came up was whether or not one of Jung's ancestors was a member of this secret society. Jung was certainly much given to indulging in magical and occultic thinking and encouraging the development of a myth-making cult with him at the centre. He has at least that much in common with the founders of AA.

You will recall that some of your correspondents have speculated on the possibility that Dr Bob Smith and Bill W may have been freemasons. It has been claimed that Smith was a member but was kicked out, then later reinstated, but I am not aware of any hard evidence. It is in the nature of secret societies that such evidence could be hard to find anyway.

Anyway, here's the link to that website:

Incidentally, I must apologise if you have received a spate of links to homeworking scams, ads suggesting you could meet hot young chicks in Colwyn Bay, North Wales, UK and penis enlargement devices etc. Some scumbag hijacked my previous email address and sent this garbage to everyone in my address book. Due to bipolar-related attention problems, I am finding it impossible to access that previous email account in order to delete it, so if you get any more of that please just mark it spam for now.

By the way, the JUST SAY NO TO 12 STEP BRAINWASHING posters with the link to your website are causing some interest and consternation. I was harangued by a posse of enraged steppers outside the Friends Meeting House for having pinned one to the gate before the midday aa meeting there, but I made good my escape. Discretion is the better part of valour. I must work on my timing. They must have spotted me through the window when they were putting up the icons of Bill and Ben and setting the chairs out.

Regards to the geese, goslings and ducks. The Afghan goats (now naturalised on the Great Orme headland and the seals of Angel Cove send you their best wishes

Andy M

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the information. I'll have to check that out. The stuff you mentioned about Carl Jung sure sounds accurate. Yes, he was really into magical thinking and the occult and finding mystical "universal archetypes" in people's minds.

About Dr. Bob being a Mason, that seems to be pretty well established. Apparently one of the high-ranking Masonic officials verified it. Ray S. sent:

It is not well known that Dr. Bob was a Mason. Suspended in 1934, he gained reinstatement after being sober for some years.[4] According to John Weldon, "The truth is that Masonry is a distinct religion that espouses teachings incompatible with Christian faith in the areas of God, salvation, and other important doctrines."[5]
4. Cedric L. Smith, PGM, Grand Secretary of Masons in Vermont
5. John Weldon, The Masonic Lodge and the Christian Conscience, CRI DM 166, pg. 1


Personally, it doesn't mean a lot to me. I don't know whether membership in the Masons really gives someone a weird non-Christian philosophy of life or not. I guess that Dr. Bob's obvious mental problems were much more influential on his thinking than the Masons were.

About the spam, don't worry about it. I get a ton of spam all of the time, and I would never even know if some of it came from a virus raiding your email address list. Just publishing my email address on my own website allows the spam-bots to glean the address and send me a ton of spam for everything from fake Viagra sold by a "reputable Canadian pharmacy" to Russian girls who really want to visit me if I will only send them the money for an airplane ticket. And then of course there sure are a lot of rich African Christian widows who just don't know what to do with their husbands' money. And then there are the deposed African dictators and their henchmen who want me to help move their stolen fortunes out of the country... And dishonest bank clerks who want me to help them steal money from a dead man's bank account...

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Jede Form von Süchtigkeit is von übel, gleichgültig,
**    ob es sich um Alkohol oder Morphium oder Idealismus handelt.
**    Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic
**    be alcohol or morphine or idealism.
**       ==  Carl Gustav Jung (1875—1961),
**           Erinnerungen, Träume, Gedanken (1962) ch. 12

[The next letter from Andrew_M is here.]

The Jung debate continues here: https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters286.html#Jung

[The previous letter from Royski is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Royski2 ]

Date: Tue, July 19, 2011 2:15 am     (answered 20 July 2011)
From: "royski w."
Subject: hi

hello again orange

its me your ally in the uk captain britain. ive been away from the collective a couple of years now and continue to stay sober due to my own efforts .

the internet is the best invention since the wheel and it allows the truth to get out out far easier than before .

i would like to ask your advice how do i get militant? i,d like to do more other than talk.

i live in quite a small town 100,000 and i was in the borg among the steptards for 7 years (i dont remember breaking a mirror) lol . i always questioned the programme and was told to shut up utilize dont analyze etc.

i was witness to many instances of predatory behaviour and the worst offenders were the long time sober cult members. its become that bad that the alcohol services in my town won't send women to AA .

i also exposed 2 paedophiles within aa in my town. one of them left but one of them is still there and the meeting he attends is right next to a primary school. thats children 11 and under .

is it my duty to inform the head of the school ? i was thinking of taking a picture of this monster and going to the press .

AA does nothing about these paedos and predators so in doing so it condones these monsters. i forget who said it. i think it may have been martin luther king (all it takes for evil things to happen is for good people to stand by and do nothing.

Well those days are gone orange. the anti cult movement is growing whilst the insidious 12 step cult is shrinking and dying. i read that aa has lost 600,000 since 1992. it seems people are taking control of their lives and realising that far from being powerless we are in fact powerful beautiful children of the universe. i'm not powerless and sure i have faults but i also have a heck of a lot of good things about me and most importantly i'm an individual free thinking human being .

I thankyou from the bottom of my heart for being there,
your friend (CAPTAIN BRITAIN)

Hello again, Captain,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Those are some good questions.

About activism: What seems to work best is publicity. A.A. has been using publicity to promote itself for 70 years now, and we need publicity the other way to inform the public about what A.A. really is. All that the public has ever heard is that A.A. is some great but slightly secret and mysterious organization that saves millions of alcoholics. People are genuinely surprised to hear that A.A. is a hoax and a fraud, and just another cult religion.

So the people need more information. And it is important that the information be accurate and substantial. Like you mentioned that health care professionals will not send women to A.A. meetings because the A.A. groups are so full of sexual predators. Get that documented. Get an exact quote from somebody important, and include it in your writings. That is actually very damning evidence.

Likewise, if you can get sworn statements from victims of sexual exploitation in A.A., that carries some weight. Get as much information as you can, and make it complete and substantiated. Names, dates, times, addresses, all of the details are important.

About the paedophiles: Yes, I would tell the school. But it is critically important that you must have irrefutable evidence. That's a heavy-duty charge, and you could be opening yourself up to a major lawsuit if you can't prove what you say. Rumor and bad reputation isn't good enough. Hearsay isn't good enough. So see if the guy has already been convicted of a sex crime. If so, then it's a done deal. Even if he sues you for defamation of character, all that you have to do is show the judge the previous court ruling, and it's over. Court adjourned.

Otherwise, proceed very carefully, and see what evidence you can gather. And if you discover something that the police don't know, then tell them. Speaking of which, you can ask the police what they have on him. Court cases are public records, so you are entitled to a lot of the information if he was ever charged with a sex crime.

In my case, the state made it easy for me. My child-raping Stepper counselor was arrested before I ever heard that he was a paedophile. That's how I found out. So the city and state legal system convicted him of Internet child pornograpy and criminal sexual penetration of minors, and I just heard about it second-hand. (For some odd reason, the TV news and newspaper didn't report on the case.) I still double-checked his public criminal record to make sure of what I was saying before I printed anything.

Now, about publicity: A.A. uses about every possible channel of information, and so should you. You can write letters to the editor. You can also write articles for magazines or newspapers or web sites. You can write letters to judges, informing them of why they should not send drunks to A.A. You can participate in the debates in the comments sections of online newspapers and web sites. You can also write to your member of Parliament and inform him of what is really going on. He is the man who controls funding for "drug and alcohol treatment", so he is especially important.

Speaking of Parliament: You know what would be fantastic? A law that requires that treatment centers prove that their so-called "treatment program" actually works and produces results that are worth the money spent on it. It is appalling that in the USA, Canada, and Great Britain, it is quite legal to sell quackery as "treatment" for drug and alcohol problems. If somebody tries that with cancer, he will go to jail in a flat minute. But the alkies and druggies get no protection from the law. Why is that?

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
**       is for good men to do nothing."
**         ==  Edmund Burke (1729—1797)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#John_M ]

From: "John M."
Subject: Brooke Mueller Heads To Mexican Rehab Center | The FABlife
Date: Tue, July 19, 2011 6:10 am     (answered 20 July 2011)

Funny, considering that Bill Wilson got sober on a hallucinogenic


Hello again, John,

Thanks for the tip. Now that's interesting. I've heard about using ibogaine for treating addictions before. I'm not sure how well it works. I've also heard of it being used as a sex aid.

Ibogaine is a funny drug. Traditionally, the natives in Africa would use it for fishing. A man can take ibogaine and go into a trance-like state where he can stand motionless for hours, standing in a river with a spear in hand, waiting for a fish to swim by, and he will still be totally alert, and respond instantly and spear a fish when one comes along.

I hear that ibogaine doesn't actually make people hallucinate. So it's a very odd psychedelic.

Alas, ibogaine is one of the few psychedelic drugs that I never got a chance to try (and I don't plan to now).

I have my doubts about using ibogaine in a sobriety program. Or at least, ibogaine alone. It just seems far too easy to simply stay stoned on drugs for a month in rehab, and then go back to drinking when she gets out. Now if she were to get some real earth-shaking, mind-changing visions and great insights from the psychedelics, something that would transform her whole life, that might do something. But ibogaine isn't like LSD. Well, we shall see.

I just don't see any substitute for deciding to never get high or stoned again. Choose life instead of death, for once and forever. I think that until people make that decision, they are going to be tempted to nibble... and then backslide...

By the way, "celebrities" are funny. I actually never heard of this "celebrity" before. Is she famous or something? On some TV program that I don't watch? In some movie that I never saw?

Oh well, have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?
**       ==  Stephen Fry

[The next letter from John_M is here.]

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

Saturday Market
Saturday Market

This picture was shot with a widener lens screwed onto the front of an already wide-angle lens, which makes it almost a fish-eye lens. You can see from the curvature of the buildings that the picture is getting distorted towards being a fish-eye picture.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#So_Done_With_AA ]

Date: Tue, July 19, 2011 3:01 pm     (answered 22 July 2011)
From: "So Done With AA"
Subject: Done! Woo hoo!
Cc: "[email protected]"

Dear Mr Orange,

Thank you so much for your site. I will have 10 years of sobriety on Sept 20, 2011 all of that in AA. I have spent a fair amount of time in AA offshoots as well. As you will see, I am done with AA.

What I have to tell you mirrors some of the "Horror Stories" you have posted from, for example, the Midtown Group. The information I list below is NOT EVEN the most damning of evidence illustrating the sickness within AA. Sexual misconduct is so pervasive and ignored in AA that young women are being hurt, abused, and becoming pregnant while newly sober. Go to ANY Young People's meeting in the country and you will find young women, some young men, and many older men who have no business at a YP meeting. You can guess why they are there. These men frequently "befriend" these young women in meetings but also online, and stalk them incessantly. I found this "practice" so abhorrent that I had to leave YP meetings for good. I will leave my tales of that to my own writing.

I have lived in 3 places "in sobriety."(AA vernacular) All towns were geographically very close to one another. All three AA fellowships in these towns would be considered, to most, more open-minded than others. I live in an area with a diverse population.

Nevertheless, in the city in which I first got sober, my "homegroup" meeting was so against medications that this guy would announce every week that those people on a certain medication should leave. At another meeting close by, I witnessed a newcomer shivering as he detoxed off an SSRI due to a sponsor's commandment. I witnessed this type of behavior and rhetoric at ALL of the regular AA meetings I attended.

In the second town, things were much worse. My sponsor there told me I had to get a job even though I am disabled, because "men either leave you or die." She also encouraged me to wear a long skirt to meetings "out of respect." Another member in this town asked my husband "what's wrong with putting on a tie?" when he came to a Sunday meeting. These people wanted us to change the way we dressed! I witnessed AA members asking their sponsor permission in order to date! At one meeting if I got up to pee at the wrong time I got glared at or lectured after the meeting.

I am now living in my third town "in sobriety." I got a new sponsor. She insisted that I go to more meetings before she even got to know me. When I told her it was too difficult for me to manage my health issues, take care of my pets and household, and go to 3 mtgs a week plus AA events, she said "just get rid of your pets and get on with your life."

That was the last straw. I am done with AA. I can no longer say that the above occurrences are isolated, coincidental incidents. The only LOGICAL conclusion is that AA as a WHOLE is so deeply dysfunctional as to be no help to me anymore.

By the way: when I was first introduced to AA, I was told my intelligence would be a liability to getting the program and therefore to getting sober. Now I realize that this was a ploy to get me to not think about the garbage they were feeding my ears and mind. Yeah, intelligence is a liability in AA, because you will see right through their smoke-and-mirror routine. It is not, however, a barrier to sobriety.

You have put together a wonderful body of work outing AA for what they are. The footnotes documenting what you say are crucial to getting more people to believe what you say. Say what you need to say in as few words as possible, be as objective as possible, and you will see more and more people coming around to your view. The tide is turning. Best of luck.

So Done With AA

Hello So Done With AA,

Thank you for a a very powerful letter. I can't really think of anything to add, other than to say that I'm adding this letter to the list of A.A. horror stories.

Congratulations on your sobriety, and your new freedom. Ten years is great, isn't it?

Oh, and come to think of it, the requirement for men wearing suits and ties, and women wearing long skirts, is one of the characteristics of Clancy's Clones, a.k.a. "The Pacific Group" of Clancy Imusland. (Doesn't that look for all the world like a fundamentalist Christian church, or Warren Jeffs' polygamist "Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints", where all of the men wear ties, and all of the women wear long skirts?) Clancy's Clones also tell their people not to take the medications that the doctor prescribes. There you were in California, the headquarters of Clancy. I suspect that you might have met some of them.

I hear that Clancy's Clones are the most aggressively recruiting and rapidly-growing subsect of Alcoholics Anonymous. They are also notorious for sexual abuse of women and telling sick people not to take their medications. And they are crazy fundamentalists. They have missionaries all throughout the United States now, from California and Nevada and Montana to Minnesota and Wisconsin and Omaha, to Washington DC and Maine. In the Midwest they call themselves the Foxhall Group. In Washington DC, it's the Midtown Group,. In Waukesha, Wisconsin, it's the Badger Group. And now they have chapters in London and Plymouth, England.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The only freedom worth possessing is that which gives
**     enlargement to a people's energy, intellect, and virtues.
**       ==  William Ellery Channing (1780—1842), Amer. Unit. Clergy
**     To have freedom is only to have what is absolutely necessary to enable
**     us to be what we ought to be, and to possess what we ought to possess.
**       == Rahel

[The next letter from So_Done_With_AA is here.]

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