Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXXIX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Elric ]

Date: Thu, December 5, 2013 10:37 pm     (answered 8 December 2013)
From: "Elric"
Subject: Nuremburg trials....

So, I'm reading the wiki article on Hans Bernd Gisevius, a German official and member of the German Resistance. If you don't know him, he served as a main prosecution witness in the trial Goering & as a defense witness for Hjalmar Schacht. He also was the diplomat in Switzerland who took meetings with Dulles and negotiations with the Vatican.

Anyways, at the end of the article, there are links for YouTube vids of the Nuremberg Trials footage. I have no idea if the Doctor's Trials footage is part of it, but there are at least 115 days worth of footage (I don't think it's highlights).

On a lark, you should type "Nuremberg Day" and the name (both or just last) of your target and see if anything pops. I'd do it, but I can't remember the guy's name.

Anyways. Thought you'd appreciate the idea.

Take care and I hope to see you soon.


The Jews, the Muslims & the Christians. They've all got it wrong. The people of the world only divide into two kinds. One sort with brains who hold no religion. The other with religion and no brain."
~~ Al-Marri (973 — 1057). Syrian Poet & Philosopher. Muslim.

Hello D.,

Thanks for the info.

To the readers: This is about the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials of the Nazi doctors who conducted horrendous "scientific" experiments on Jews and other prisoners. In particular, it's about the Karl Gebhardt who was mentioned earlier as testifying that Heinrich Himmler was taught about herbal cures, mesmerism, and homœopathy by his new wife, who had been working as a nurse in a Berlin clinic.

I got the book Croix gammée contre caducée — Les Experiences Humaines En Allemagne Pendant La Deuxieme Guerre Mondiale, by Francois Bayle, through an interlibrary loan. It verifies the previous statement about Himmler's wife, but doesn't say anything about Himmler getting converted to the Buchmanite religion. The author Gerald Reitlinger wrote in "the SS, alibi of a nation, 1922-1945" that "It was widely reported towards the year 1935 that she had converted Himmler to the Buchmanite movement."

Alas, the author did not seem to think that such "widely reported" information needed a footnote. Oh how I wish there was one, or several. I need to track down some of those widespread sources.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The one means that wins the easiest victory over reason:
**     terror and force.
**       ==  Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (1924), 1.2.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#causeandeffect ]

Date: Fri, December 6, 2013 4:58 pm     (answered 10 November 2013)
From: "causeandeffect"

(You can post this letter.)

Hi Orange,

I really hope you are feeling better. I know it's hard enough, especially in the winter.

I have to object to the letter by antidenial about me as posted in your letters section where she called me a bully, among other things. What she said makes it sound like I was the one being homophobic and nothing could be further from the truth. It borders on libel on a site that gets millions of hits per month.

Antidenial's letter also makes it sound like I might be anti-Christian. That's not true either. I also welcome all perspectives on AA, atheists and religious views alike. In fact, I initially defended Jim when he was being attacked for being a Christian. And I remained neutral about his plans until I knew more about them.

It was Jim Battle who was bashing, not only LGBT, but interfaith marriages, Buddhists (also in another post), certain churches and bashing other Christians he views as evildoers because they practice tolerance, saying they are lower than gang members who will kill you. He is talking about threatening the churches, exposing them as "evildoers", and even talks about suing them. The list goes on and on. This is offensive to good "Love Thy Neighbor" type of Christians. He's not going to get many friends like that. A spirit of cooperation would go a lot further than making the kinds of "demands" he's talking about. In fact, his approach could make people all the more defensive of AA.

Here's his post. Please note the time stamp of 11/20. The original post was on 11/13, as you can clearly see by the timestamps of the responses. Nobody changed his comments but him, and he was editing it for days, trying to make it seem more palatable. The original version specified the people he didn't think should be welcome in churches AT ALL, which he later changed to "members". You can scroll up to see what he was responding to. You can see this when Pennywise quoted him just below.

I simply object to Battlesetting himself up as our leader while refusing to share more about his belief system, when that system could be used to discredit him, and by association, discredit us. That's what my signature is about. There are others who feel this way, and they are in the majority, which is obvious if you read the thread. I also feel others who didn't see his original unedited post should know what exactly they are aligning themselves with and not run blindly into this thing. I'd also like to add that Battleis anti-psychiatry and anti-psychology, as well.


It's a 12 page long thread, but if you read even some of it, it will be clear that we were objecting to Battle's intolerance and simply stating that we weren't going to follow him.

Here's my first comment on that particular thread regarding the matter.

(Please note that my disclaimer wasn't added until much later.)

Here's where antidenial started with her personal attacks immediately after.

If you scroll down a bit you can also see that Avo tried to capture what Battle said by copy and paste, but this was only AFTER and BECAUSE we were aware that he repeatedly edited his original comment.

Here's Ben quoting Battle's attacks on churches

Then they had the nerve to accuse us of being intolerant and calling us bigots because we didn't want to tolerate Jim's hate. Nice reversal of reality. There's a load of projection going on here.

Here's more.

Here's where antidenial made this about being anti-Christian, rather than anti-hate, which has become a main theme for them:

The members of the forum repeatedly expressed that Battle has the right to his beliefs and to express them on the forum and elsewhere, but that we equally have the right to know what his positions are, and to not follow him based on our objections to those beliefs. Here's only one of many posts stating such:

The tactics they plan to use against churches were also objected to:

And here's Avogadno stating her objections as a Christian:

Battle's feeling that his hateful attitudes should remain unquestioned is a huge red flag. He wants a blind and unconditional following. His attitudes and other religious bigots he aligns himself with can be researched by anybody (they are referenced in his tract), just as people did on that thread, and can easily be used to discredit the cause of exposing AA. In other words, someone like Battlecan do this movement harm.

This isn't about Christianity or any other religion; it's specifically about hate-mongering forms of religion in general and it's a really bad idea to align yourself with hate-mongering.

Another problem I have is that Battle is speaking in a public arena and linking back to the Orangepapers, which links to the forum, which links to the rest of us personally. I have every right to distance myself from whatever I'm offended by and that's the reason for my signature. And it also reflects that the majority of the members of the forum feel the same way, as they expressed themselves on that thread and others.

The funny thing here is that I have REPEATEDLY asked antidenial why she still hasn't featured Battle and his bus on HER website. She has never answered that question. It would appear that even Battle's number 1 defender and cheerleader wants to keep a degree of separation from him, while attacking us for openly stating we don't support him. She wants this to all play out on your forum and not hers; even though she could delete any comments she wants to.


The claims that we are trying to silence anybody is patently absurd when you actually read the thread. Nobody is trying to stop them from what they are planning to do, either. And you should know personally that I've never called to have Battle or antidenial banned.

Since antidenial's letter has been published on your site, with no supporting evidence of her accusations, I hope that you will publish this one, since I have supported my claims. I have only written this in response since I found her letter on your site. I deserve the right to defend myself. And I have the right to defend myself from being lumped in with Battle. I'd also like to point out that you are losing a lot of members over this, and I can prove that as well if you wish. I have many posts saved if you'd like to see them.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to clear my name,

Hello again, Causeandeffect,

Yes, there is far too much bitterness and hostility in the forum right now. I really hope that people can calm down.

In particular, when we are confronted with ideas that we find repugnant, like narrow-minded homophobia, we don't have to go non-linear. My favorite response is to mention the fact that Jesus never acted in a bigoted or narrow-minded way. Think about the woman at the well, or the prostitute about to get stoned to death. Jesus was very tolerant of others' shortcomings. Also, it was the Jewish tradition to not enter the house of a non-Jew, lest the Jew be "defiled" by the "unclean" house. But Jesus entered the houses of non-Jews and sinners all of the time, and was even nice to Romans. I wish more Christians would follow that example.

I would like to think that the forum can survive one preacher espousing his version of Christianity. If not, is it a forum?

If the forum is nothing but a group of like-minded people who parrot their favorite sayings back and forth to each other, then that isn't a forum. It's an echo box.

Oh well, have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If the facts change, I'll change my opinion. What do you do, Sir?"
**       —  John Maynard Keynes
**     One of the interesting things about politics is that you don't have to
**     prove your theories. In politics, you can mouth off with lots of
**     long-winded opinions about economics or social order, and proclaim that
**     the world will be much better off if everybody does such and such...
**     But you don't have to come up with any real evidence to prove your point.
**     You can even ignore history where things didn't turn out very well.
**     Thus the Right-wing Fundamentalists can declare that everything will be
**     wonderful if we just post the 10 Commandments in all of the schools ...
**     (ignoring the fact that Moses, who wrote those commandments, was a racist
**     mass murderer and war criminal who delighted in robbing, raping, enslaving,
**     and killing everybody who wasn't Jewish). If we just force a bigoted
**     religion on everybody else, we can return to the glorious days of the
**     Dark Ages.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Bill_T ]

Date: Sun, December 8, 2013 7:53 pm     (answered 10 December 2013)
From: "Bill T."
Subject: Past email

I see you are not to active on your post. The last one I sent you is not up. You do not need to post it. I have been posting on the Forum. I am not sure if I am saying the right thing. But I am giving it a try anyway. I hope all is well with you. I think this is taking off pretty well. The Jim Battle thing is a bit odd. But it is generating more activity. I am not sure what his agenda is. There was a young guy in the rooms that was into the Christian evangelical thing. I tried to talk to him, but all he did was try to get me to accept Jesus. There was no give and take. It is all one way. Kind of like AA. Oh well, have a nice day.

Hello again, Bill,

I'm active in my posting, just slow. Events sometimes conspire to keep me from the library and posting updates, like sciatica and freezing weather. But I won't let it keep me down.

Some days, I just feel like hibernating. I think I still have some bear genes in me. It's December. What am I doing awake?

Yes, there has been quite a furor in the forum lately. Well, to a certain extent, I think that it's in the nature of forums. If it's a real free marketplace of ideas, then sooner or later you will have someone saying things that you don't like.

But I have my own kind of faith: I believe in freedom of speech. I think that we get the best outcomes when all ideas can be freely expressed, and we are free to judge, consider, disagree, criticize, or accept. Whatever. I am reminded of the Nazi regime and Communist countries where free speech and freedom of the press were not allowed. Or crazy Islamic or military dictatorships in the Middle East right now. One of the first signs that your country is going to Hell is when freedom of the press and freedom of speech, are curtailed by some "higher authority" (often for "good reasons").

Now, about religious proselytizing: One of the biggest problems that I have with evangelists is that they just want to make you agree with them. They want to "convert" you to their beliefs. Often, they need the emotional support of being surrounded by dozens of parrots who all say the same thing. And they don't want to learn the truth. They will vehemently insist that they already have the truth, so they don't need to learn the truth, and they will refuse to look at facts or evidence which might change their beliefs.

To anyone who even vaguely believes in science or reason or logic, it seems inconceivable for some people to reject the evidence in front of their eyes, and just "believe" something else. Indeed, it is a kind of insanity.

Nevertheless, I think it's better to hear them than censor them.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human
**     stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and
**     justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism
**     and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or
**     political idols.
**        ==  Aldous Huxley

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Mike_O.D ]

Date: Sun, December 8, 2013 11:02 pm     (answered 10 December 2013)
From: "Mike O'D."
Subject: I owe you orange

Hi Orange,

I have been meaning to write a letter to you for some time. A year and a half ago I googled "AA is a cult" and was linked to your site. I spent about three years in AA. During this time I was consistently told "what I needed to hear" which was often that I was "pathetic, crazy and worthless." I unfortunately believed that, devoted my life to the program and lost my motivation and some close friends. I frequently thought of suicide, yet sadly believed I could cure my unhappiness by listening to the terrible advice from other members. Anyway I lost it after a close friend died of an overdose and I became very depressed as I often do anyway in the late winter. I heard from members of the cult that "he was a loser who chose not to work the program" and that I shouldn't be sad in should see that "god killed him to save others." My depression was apparently from not working the program and not listening to the insulting feedback I was given. I was told meds were a relapse and unfortunately was brainwashed enough to listen.

Fortunately my shrink suggested I leave the program and I found your site. Anyway, a year and a half later I have an awesome group of true friends, got into graduate school and am finally happy after years of misery. Oh, and I tried moderate drinking and guess what? As I originally believed opiates were my problem not alcohol. And I now take medication that keeps me from becoming depressed. Thank you for helping me save my life and my sanity.

Also on a side note I wanted to say how powerful the brainwashing from treatment centers is. My sister has been to 10 or so rehabs and despite that I have shown my parents the studies on your site each time they visit her they become true believers who think that the problem lies in her not truly getting step one. My parents are smart, rational and successful people yet have become brainwashed repeatedly.

Anyway, thank you happy holidays.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Mike,

Thank you for the letter, and I'm so happy to hear that you are feeling better, and out of the madness (A.A. madness, I mean).

This letter really makes my day. It's very encouraging to hear that someone actually benefitted from reading the web site. Every so often, especially now in the gray winter, I think about retiring from the scene and letting others do it. But then I get a letter like yours and it tells me that this project is still worth doing.

About your parents, again, I'm reminded of the quote,
"Smart people are very good at rationalizing things they came to believe for non-smart reasons."

I don't know who said that, but it's so true.

About your parents' belief that your sister should "get" Step One: I'd ask them where you would be if you were really powerless over alcohol? Or powerless over drugs? You would probably be dead.

And I'd ask your parents why you succeeded in getting healthy only after you rejected the 12 Steps and all of the associated beliefs? You got better when you stopped believing that you were powerless over drugs and alcohol. You got better when you stopped believing that you were "pathetic, crazy and worthless." Now why is that?

Ask your parents how much they are paying for the quack medicine that your sister is getting. Then ask them how many lies old ex-convicts and drug addicts will tell to get that much money.

Lastly, I wonder whether your parents are getting fooled by the trappings of authority. (See Appeal to Authorities — Argumentum ad Verecundiam.) The people who run rehab centers prop themselves up as the "experts on addiction", real know-it-all authorities on the subject, which they are not. They are just crooks who sell quack medicine, and make a whole lot of money doing it.

Your parents should understand that the FDA does not regulate treatments for addictions. The field is wide open for all kinds of con artists and frauds. The FDA regulates medications. If the rehab center were to sell an unlicensed pill to cure alcoholism, then the FDA would be down on them like a ton of bricks. But the treatment center could take your sister to a roller-skating rink and make her skate around in circles as her "treatment", and that would be legal. Or they could sell her an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties as a cure, and that would be okay. It's completely legal.

Good luck. And have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If only Bill Wilson had gotten the right medications,
**     we wouldn't have the 12-Step quack cure killing people today.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Mike2 ]

Date: Thu, December 12, 2013 10:14 pm     (answered 16 November 2013)
From: "Mike O'D."
Subject: Re: I owe you orange

Hi again orange.

Thanks for your response. It made me smile to hear it made your day. You said that you're glad to hear someone was helped and I wanted to reply to let you know I think you've helped a lot of people. I didn't mention this in the previous letter but I have one friend who was being abused by an outpatient 12 step program. I sent him a link to your site. His parents saw the Vaillant study and immediately sent him to a non 12 step treatment which according to him was CBT based and he has told me he's off the hard drugs.

Another friend was in the cult longer than I was. He was very far gone, went to extremely intense and abusive men's only meetings and was very abusive toward me even after I left AA. In anger I sent him a link to the site and told him to read it. He has left AA, stayed completely sober and is now one of my best friends. He is more relaxed and has said he is very thankful he left AA. Don't give up, you make a huge difference.

As for my sister and parents I'm not sure anything at the moment will change their minds. I tried very hard to show them the studies after my sister was assaulted by a sex offender at her halfway house last year and even that didn't make a difference. Apparently the creep just wasn't working his program. Why they let ex con perverts in the halfway houses is beyond me. And putting myself in other members shoes had I seen your site 9 months prior to when I did you probably would have received a letter full of as hominem attacks by a true believer unwilling to see the truth. Oh well keep up the good work.


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the happy stories. They are good news. I'm sorry to hear about your sister. The way that some people can be so stubborn just amazes and appalls me. I scratch my head and ask, "What will it take? To get some people to wake up and see and change their minds?"

Oh well, have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?
**       ==  Stephen Fry
**     "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
**        ==  Abraham Lincoln

December 10, 2013, Tuesday, my back yard in Forest Grove:

bird feeder
Broken Bird Feeder
The plastic loop on the right, by which the feeder hangs, is broken. It's highly likely that a hungry squirrel did it. After eating all of the sunflower seeds on the ground, he or she still wanted more, so it climbed up the tree, out on the branch, and then down the feeder to get into it. The extra weight broke the weak, cold, brittle, plastic loop, and it fell. And the squirrel probably fell with it. Then the squirrel happily scooped out all of the sunflower seeds, and feasted.

A book that I have been reading about backyard bird feeders calls squirrels "destructive". I disagree, in spite of the breakage. The squirrels are just trying to get something more to eat. You can't blame them for that. Besides, the fix was easy. I just made a new loop out of stiff wire, and hung it back up, refilled with sunflower seeds. Oh, and I also put more sunflower seeds and rolled oats out on the ground, where the squirrel could get them.

bird feeder
Bird Feeders
The repaired feeder is on the left, and it's filled with sunflower seeds. The two middle feeders are full of mixed wild bird seed. The feeder on the right is a hummingbird feeder, and it's frozen solid.

December 11, 2013, Wednesday, my back yard in Forest Grove:

This might be the culprit. It's right underneath the sunflower seed feeder. Then again, it might be innocent. It doesn't matter.

Canada Goose goslings

[More bird photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Amy_R ]

Date: Sun, December 8, 2013 4:32 am     (answered 10 December 2013)
From: "Amy R."
Subject: What's good about AA: I was pleased to see this list. It adds credibility to your criticisms of AA because, as you point out, there must be some reason so many people hang out in "the rooms". You nailed the reasons I go to meetings: it's always there, it's something to do, and I've made friends with some sane and interesting women. I do have the ability to recognize cultish behavior, poor information, and toxic personalities, so I can ignore these things — or change up what meetings I choose to attend. In other words, give me credit for having done plenty of reading and research about addiction. Your inclusion of the "Good about AA" list on this site shows some respect for my intelligence. Thanks for that.

Hello Amy,

Thanks for the thanks. Yes, we have to consider both sides of any issue if we want to be fair and accurate.

And I know that not all A.A. members are insane or evil. I've met some good people there.

I even have the honorable "Newcomers Rescue League", which consists of sane, good-hearted people who go to A.A. meetings to rescue newcomers from bad sponsors.

Unfortunately, there is the other side: What's Not Good About A.A.?. And I do believe that A.A. does more harm than good.

Oh well, have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The Wizard's First Rule:
**     People will believe a lie because they want it to be true,
**     or because they are afraid it might be true.
**     The Wizard's Second Rule:
**     The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.
**       ==  The Legend of the Seeker

[The previous letter from Ted_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Ted_B ]

Date: Mon, December 9, 2013 9:52 pm     (answered 11 December 2013)
From: "Theodore B."
Subject: Re: Stephen King's new book Dr. Sleep

Great to hear back from you as always!

My parents, and everyone else I talk to when the subject of alcoholism comes up (which thankfully isn't often) thinks and says that AA is just a wonderful program. Here in Hawai'i and probably in many parts of the mainland, AA is really the only support group there is. If it were't for the internet and your website in particular, I would still be wondering why I felt so at odds with 'the program'...like 'what's wrong with me that I feel something is wrong with AA?'

Anyway, Happy Holidays to you and the goslings... and if you do write a horror novel based on AA that is scarier than AA itself, I'll buy it! Because THAT'S a horror story!!

Hello again, Ted,

About your parents, yes, a whole lot of people have been fooled by 70 years of A.A. propaganda. It's going to take some time to get the truth out.

About a horror story scarier than A.A.: now that is a real challenge. That would really require a lot of scary stuff, and maybe vampires and ghouls and...

Come to think of it, I didn't mention vampires before, did I? Now that would fit. There are lots of A.A. meetings at night, which a vampire could visit. He could groom his future meals there, and seduce tonight's dinner.

And ghouls? They feed on the flesh of dead people. That fits. Or even better would be spiritual ghouls, who feed on the minds and spirits of people whose minds and spirits are dead. Now I know I've seen some of them — both kinds, the dead spirits, and the ghouls.

Oh well, have a good day, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone approaches you at an A.A. meeting and offers
**     to be your sponsor, run — don't walk — for the door.
**     You just met a vampire.
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#disk ]

Date: Tue, December 10, 2013 5:21 pm
From: Dan
Subject: Available of Disk?

Dear Orange,

Is the Orange Papers website information available on CD/DVD? I would like to buy one if it is. If NOT then it should be in case something happens to the site or you.



Hi again, Dan,

Right now, it isn't available on disk. I might get around to burning a few copies eventually, but haven't done it yet.

What I recommend is that you burn your own disk. The web site is actually designed for that. You will notice that the entire web site is available in 148 archive files. You just download them, and uncompress them into a subdirectory, and burn a DVD of the whole thing, archive files and all.

It used to be a CD but got too big, so now it's a DVD.

If you don't have a DVD burner of your own, get a friend to do it.

Complete instructions for burning the DVD are here:

Just substitute "DVD" for "CD". Those instructions are old.

Have a good day again, and Merry Christmas.
== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
**     It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**     == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Rolf ]

Date: Sun, December 8, 2013 1:56 am     (answered 11 December 2013)
From: rolf
Subject: "Religion"

Hey Orange,

JR led me to a section of your letters where you were asked about your religious affiliations. I have to say, I think we're from the same planet! Your hippy response was priceless.

People always try to shove me into an agnostic or atheist box and neither of them fit and boy that pisses them off.

I was born in 61 so I just missed the summer of love although as an 8 year old, I was already "all in". I guess my sarcasm and cynicism is a result of growing up in the early 70's and the realization that the world just wasn't ready yet for those idealistic ideas. I miss the improv jams of those magical bands back from the day.

In terms of "religious" views, I kind of lean towards those "imagined" by John! :->

Peace out,

Hello Rolf,

Thanks for the letter, and of course I couldn't agree more. It isn't a question of either you are a true believer in a "standard-brand religion", or else you are an atheist. There is lot of room inbetween, and there are also other dimensions, like up/down, left-right. It sure isn't just a one-dimensional thing. Just the proliferation of so many slightly-different churches should teach people that.

By the way, it was Alan Watts who came up with that "standard-brand religion" phrase. I love that one. It says a lot. (I think it was in The Book, which is another good read.)

And then of course there are other philosophies like Buddhism and "Hinduism" (really properly named Vedantic teachings). Buddhism doesn't believe in a God who answers prayers and pulls puppet strings and makes miracles happen (if you are good enough, or do something to please God enough). So that would blow a big hole in the beliefs of a lot of the American people.

And yes, I miss the bands of the sixties too. That kind of music just isn't happening today, and I don't know quite why. I don't think the kids today are any stupider, so what happened? (Is it just different drugs? LSD and psychedelics stretch your mind out like taffey, so the songs get very long, while ecstacy, which is a kind of speed, makes you end the songs much sooner? Could be.)

And Lennon's Imagine is just classic. Imagine no religion. Imagine nobody getting killed for Allah, or Jesus, or Buddha, or whatever. Yes, imagine.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit.
**     If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
**     Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?
**       ==  Chief Red Jacket, "We Also Have A Religion", 1805
**       If a man speaks or acts with pure thought,
**     happiness follows him like a shadow that never leaves him.
**         ==  Buddha

October 6, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Pelican taking off
A Pelican Taking Off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

Pelican taking off

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

NEWS NOTE: 2013.12.14:

THE FIX is back up again. For the information of those who are not familiar with it, THE FIX is a web site that features news about addiction issues. For a while, it was dead and gone, but now it's back, which is a good thing. The latest issue of their newsletter has some interesting stories, including:

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Monica ]

Date: Tue, December 10, 2013 7:37 pm     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Monica R."
Subject: Fwd: New Trailer on youtube — 13TH STEP FILM AWARDED FISCAL SPONSORSHIP THROUGH THE IDA International Documentary Association

Dear Friends and family,


The 13th Step film has been awarded fiscal sponsorship through the International Documentary Association. This sponsorship has made the film eligible to receive tax deductible donations and grants to further our fundraising efforts.

Our first fundraising campaign through Indiegogo raised over $24,000. With those funds we have been able to hire a professional crew that includes a Producer, Director of Photography, Camera Operator, Documentary Film Editor and support staff. We are filming new footage using Canon 5D cameras. Below is a link to the new trailer that we have created with your generous contributions.


With our new fiscal sponsors through the IDA, we are now beginning our second round of fundraising to continue our efforts to create the finest film we are able to make.

If you wish to contribute further to our film, please follow the link below. Click on "make a donation" to pay via PayPal or credit card.


*Contributions are payable to IDA and are tax-deductible to the extent permitted by law.*

To send a check: make payable to IDA and send to:
3470 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 980
Los Angeles CA 90010

PLease put " The 13th Step " in the memo


I continue to receive sexual predatory stories on my blogs weekly, and am still seeking people who are willing to share their stories. If you would like to speak to me privately, please e-mail me at [email protected]


The 13th Step is about the criminal and sexually predatory behavior that occurs systemically in Alcoholics Anonymous. This behavior goes unchecked by A.A's world headquarters, despite repeated warnings from respect board members and longtime members. This behavior is exacerbated by the systematic sentencing of criminals and sex offenders to AA meetings without the knowledge of the AA members.

Hello again, Monica,

That is good news. I'm glad to hear that your project is continuing, and you are getting funding for the film.

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A great deal of time and intellectual force are lost in the world,
**     because the false seems great and the truth so small and insignificant."
**       ==  Maria Montessori
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.  

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Mickey ]

Date: Wed, December 11, 2013 7:13 am     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Mickey"
Subject: Tough spirituality

Hiya Orange,

Heard a guy sponsee share at an AA meeting years ago... "My home was broken into the other night and electrical goods were stolen, my sponsor said to me 'Well, this burglar must have needed the items more than you,' he made a fair point".

The abnormal sure becomes the normal in good ol' AA.

Keep up the good work.

Mickey UK.

Hello Mickey,

Thanks for the story. That is appalling, isn't it? The corn-pone fake spirituality of Steppism is really something else.

If a girl gets raped, is she supposed to say, "Well, I guess he needed sex more than I needed my virginity."

And if she gets AIDS from it, is she supposed to say, "Well, I guess he needed to freely give what was freely given to him. Pass it on."

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I don't know why we have to go around the world forcing our
**      way of life on other people at the point of a gun.
**      When you have something good, man, they will steal it."
**          ==  Dick Gregory
**      (The same is also true of A.A. using courts, parole officers,
**      treatment centers, counselors, and 12th-Steppers to force itself
**      on unwilling victims.)
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html#Tony_P ]

Date: Wed, December 11, 2013 10:16 pm     (answered 16 December 2013)
From: "Tony P."
Subject: In response to you blog.

Just had a read through your blog

You critic the philosophy — which you are entitled to do However you fail to engage in the facts that when people follow the actions outlined in the aa big book to the "best of their abilities" They are able to; and are; leading sober, productive, happy, enlighten lives.

The one glaring omission in your blog is Over 2 million people globally have "recovered" from alcoholism

The cult you speak of; has only one requirement for membership:- that is a "desire" to stop drinking.

I will close with the following:-
Whether attributed to Spencer; Poole or Pope makes no difference:- There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination.

Hello Tony,

Thanks for the letter. Alas, you are just repeating A.A. mythology. There is no truth to those statements. None whatsoever. A.A. does not make people sober. A.A. does not make people live happy lives. That is a fairy tale, just the propaganda of a cult religion, just like Scientology, which also brags that they sell meaningful happy lives to their victims.

I challenge you to show me any valid medical or clinical tests of A.A. that showed that A.A. produced good results.

In fact, one of your own Trustees, who just loves A.A. and who promotes it every chance he gets, tested A.A. for many years, trying to prove that it works, and he accidentally proved that A.A. kills.

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A increased binge drinking.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A increased the rate of rearrests.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that A.A increased the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.
  4. Drs. Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
  5. Dr. Vaillant, who went on to become an A.A. trustee, found that A.A. did not increase sobriety in alcoholics at all, not even a little bit, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.
  6. So what's the actual A.A. cure rate? The answers are here and here and here.

Also see

The simple undeniable fact is that A.A. does more harm than good.

Also, there are no "two million saved". That is just another standard A.A. lie. A.A. does not even have 2 million members in the whole world, and the vast majority of the membership is just visiting, soon to get drunk and drop out. All that A.A. really has is "churn" — hundreds of thousands of people are shoved into A.A., and then hundreds of thousands of people reject A.A. and leave. See the following for proof:

And actually, A.A. has many requirements for membership:

  • Do not criticize the program.
  • Do not tell the historical truth about A.A. or Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob.
  • Believe the nonsense that you are told.
  • Believe that it isn't at all crazy to say that you are insane, but an invisible ghost is going to fix your brain for you.
  • Do not reveal the fact that the A.A. Big Book is the ravings of a couple of lunatics — in particular, Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman and William Griffith Wilson.
  • Do not admit that A.A. is an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties that was founded by a minister who attended Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies and Sieg-Heil-ed Adolf Hitler.
  • Do not say that the A.A. program is heretical and anti-Christian.
  • Do not drink alcohol.
  • Do not take your doctor-prescribed medications because they might mess with "your sobriety" (but it's okay to smoke cigarettes).
  • Do not tell the police about the sexual predators at your meetings.
  • Do not talk about Jesus or Christianity in A.A. meetings. Only talk about "My Higher Power".
  • Do not complain about all of the contradictions and bait-and-switch tricks in "The Program".
  • Do not reveal the fact that A.A. doesn't work; and all that they are doing is stealing the credit for a few cases of normal spontaneous remission. That is, from the people who were going to quit drinking anyway.

Lastly, I am well aware of this quote, because I also begin my own web site with it:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation."


The above famous misquote1 was put in the Big Book by William G. Wilson, in Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience", in the back of the second and third editions. Bill Wilson was trying to imply that we should not dismiss his "spiritual cure for alcoholism" without first trying it.

That is curious, because in 1864 Herbert Spencer was actually arguing against fundamentalist religious beliefs and dogmatic blind faith, and in favor of Charles Darwin's new theory of evolution.

Nevertheless, that quote sounds like good advice. So let's really, honestly, investigate Alcoholics Anonymous, without rejecting criticism of A.A. before investigation of all of the facts...

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The preservation of health is a duty. Few seem conscious
**     that there is such a thing as physical morality.
**         ==  Herbert Spencer, Education
**    Hero-worship is strongest where there is least regard for human freedom.
**      ==  Sir Herbert Spencer, Social Statistics, IV
**     The belief which we find thus questionable, both as being
**     a primitive belief and as being a belief belonging to an
**     almost-extinct family, is a belief that is not countenanced
**     by a single fact.
**       ==  Herbert Spencer, Principles of Biology,
**         Volume 1, page 336, published 1864 to 1867.
**     The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly
**       is to fill the world with fools.
**         ==  Herbert Spencer (1820—1903)
**     Morality knows nothing of geographical boundaries or distinctions of race.
**       ==  Herbert Spencer (1820—1903)
**     Volumes might be written upon the impiety of the pious.
**       ==  Herbert Spencer (1820—1903)
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.  

[The next letter from Tony_P is here.]

October 13, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
What some people don't realize is, these big beautiful birds are also ferocious predators. They will eat almost anything that they can get down. Shades of Jurassic Park and Velociraptors.

Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
Beat the snake against the ground a few times to stun it, and then flip it around so that the head is in the heron's mouth, ready for swallowing. When the heron swallows the snake head-first, the snake's scales can't stick out and impede the progress down the throat. That orientation also makes it nearly impossible for the snake to crawl back out of the heron.

Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
Great Blue Heron with Garter Snake
Almost all gone. Also notice how neatly a snake fits down a heron's long narrow throat.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

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Last updated 6 April 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters379.html