Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXXXII

[The previous letter from Tony_P is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html#Tony_P ]

Date: Tue, December 17, 2013 6:04 pm     (answered 21 December 2013)
From: "Tony P."
Subject: RE: In response to you blog.

I have extensively read through your blog- and it appears you have highlighted the minority of; rather that the majority of: situations that have arisen I look at the core fundaments not the modified interruptions of the AA program. If you read the "black parts" of the aa big book I challenge you to find error. Not the actions of individuals that have a "distorted" interruptions.

The facts remains that I have first hand evidence of many members of aa with 10-20-30-40 plus years of sobriety.

AA is an individualist program.

In addition I see you talk of many of the early shortcomings of aa which were openly acknowledged by the founding men and women of aa

That is why the traditions in addition to the steps were added to the aa philosophical society


To those now in its fold, Alcoholics Anonymous has made the difference between misery and sobriety, and often the difference between life and death. A.A. can, of course, mean just as much to uncounted alcoholics not yet reached.

Therefore, no society of men and women ever had a more urgent need for continuous effectiveness and permanent unity. We alcoholics see that we must work together and hang together, else most of us will finally die alone.

The "12 Traditions" of Alcoholics Anonymous are, we A.A.'s believe, the best answers that our experience has yet given to those ever-urgent questions, "How can A.A. best function?" and, "How can A.A. best stay whole and so survive?"

On the next page, A.A.'s "12 Traditions" are seen in their so-called "short form," the form in general use today. This is a condensed version of the original "long form" A.A. Traditions as first printed in 1946. Because the "long form" is more explicit and of possible historic value, it is also reproduced.

The Twelve Traditions

One — Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
Two — For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Three — The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Four — Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
Five — Each group has but one primary purpose — to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
Six — An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
Seven — Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
Eight — Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
Nine — A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
Ten — Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
Eleven — Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
Twelve — Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

The Twelve Traditions (The Long Form)

Our A.A. experience has taught us that: 1. — Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.

2. — For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3. — Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4. — With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5. — Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose — that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. — Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business. Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well outside A.A. — and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind itself to no one.

7. — The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contributions of their own members . We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8. — Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform those services for which we might otherwise have to engage nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our usual A.A. "12 Step" work is never to be paid for.

9. — Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating leadership is the best. The small group may elect its secretary, the large group its rotating committee, and the groups of a large metropolitan area their central or intergroup committee, which often employs a full-time secretary. The trustees of the General Service Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A. contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principal newspaper, the A.A. Grapevine. All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness.

10. — No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues — particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

11. — Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us.

12. — And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

Hello again Tony,

Thanks for the letter.

I already have the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions listed and analyzed on my web site, here:

You wrote:

The facts remains that I have first hand evidence of many members of aa with 10-20-30-40 plus years of sobriety.

Actually, the fact remains that there is such a thing as normal spontaneous remission.

Of course you have seen some people with some years of sobriety. So have I, both in and out of A.A. People quit drinking when they want to quit. When they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, they quit their bad habits and improve their health and their lives. And A.A. has nothing to do with the process.

But A.A. is quick to steal the credit for anybody and everybody who quits drinking after going to a few A.A. meetings. Even if they quit drinking before going to A.A., which they often do.

Since you believe that A.A. somehow works and makes people quit drinking, please tell us:

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

This line is a complete reversal of reality:

AA is an individualist program.

No way, José. A.A. is a make-a-Bill-clone program. You all go to the same meetings and parrot the same 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, just like you did here. Then you all read the same Big Book, and quote it as if it were holy wisdom. Then you recite the same slogans over and over again. See the list of A.A. slogans here:

Then you recite the same goofy heretical theology, like that you can believe in any "higher power" that you like, and your home-made "god" will perform miracles on demand for you.
See: The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

Oh well, have a good day now. And a Merry Christmas. And please don't drink this holiday season. No matter how bad it gets, you don't have to drink over it.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[The next letter from Tony_P is here.]

December 15, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Dead Nutria
Dead Nutria
The winter takes its toll. Lots of animals die in the winter. Freezing and starving does them in. I saw one of the Coots pecking at the body. It's still meat, something to eat in the winter.

Pondscape with Egrets
Pondscape with Egrets

Ducks and open water
Ducks and open water
They are clustering in the small remaining strip of unfrozen water.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

DARWIN AWARDS WINNER OF THE DAY: 22 December 2013, Portland, Oregon:

While stealing gasoline by siphoning it from a car, the thief smoked a cigarette. You guessed it — the sub-genius set the car and himself on fire. It wasn't very difficult for the police to discern which smoldering figure was the miscreant, and they hauled him off to jail.

If you are so hooked on nicotine that you can't even refrain from smoking a cigarette while siphoning gasoline, then it's really time for you to quit smoking.

Speaking of which, the Multnomah County Jail, where the gas thief went, is a smoke-free facility. Prisoners are not allowed to smoke in there. Some inmates consider that a worse punishment than actually being kept in jail.

Oh well, have a Merry Christmas anyway. I will. He won't. So it goes.

RANDOM THOUGHTS, 2013.12.23:

      It's okay for children to believe in Santa Claus. We don't have to go around disillusioning children and destroying their faith in Santa. The same does not apply to the 12-Step religion and 12-Step-based drug and alcohol rehab, however. There, we need to tell the truth, because people's lives are on the line, and fairy tales don't help them.

      When a believer and a rational person talk about the truth, they are using the same word but they are talking about very different things.
      When a rational person says, "Two plus two equals four. That is the truth.", he means that we can clearly demonstrate the truth of that statement by adding things together. We can group objects together and see with our own eyes the truth of two plus two adding up to four.
      When a believer says that his beliefs are the truth — for example, insisting that everything in the Bible is The Truth, and the unquestionable Word Of God — he means something else. He means that he won't tolerate anyone refuting the validity of his statements or questioning the truth of those stories. He fervently believes that if he fervently believes that some things are true, that they will become true. (And if you don't believe, then you break the spell and ruin the magic.) Alas, all of those beliefs are false. Simply believing that something is true will not make it true. Two plus two will not add up to three or five if you believe it strongly enough, and "have faith".

      "The Progressive viewpoint is not a matter of dominating the conversation and allowing only one voice or one opinion; it is a fact-driven conversation where we seek to establish the truth by examination of all of the facts."
    == paraphrasing Jefferson Smith, who was talking about the soon-to-be-born X-Ray Radio station in Portland, NPR/OPB 2012.12.23, Monday morning.

      Surprise, surprise! If you shopped at Target and used your credit card, you are now the target.
(Which insecure operating system do you imagine Target's computers were running?)

      Smile! You are on Candid Camera! Big Brother is watching you. The walls have ears, and the NSA ears have big computer farms. Use encryption and anonymous browsing for everything, all of the time, even innocent things that you don't mind being public knowledge, just to annoy the NSA and make their snooping more difficult.

      Email huge files of encrypted random numbers to all of your friends. It will keep the NSA spies entertained, trying to decrypt the stuff and figure out what it means.

NEWS NOTE: 2013.12.23:

I just heard on the morning news that somebody lost $20 million worth of Bitcoins when some unknown person stole them out of his computer. Ooops! That's the fatal flaw in the Bitcoin system. Since there is no central bank, there is no one agency that can right the wrong, and get the money back. It's gone. All Bitcoins transactions are untraceable, by design. And all computers holding Bitcoins are vulnerable to getting robbed.

And I would bet that the robbed computer was running Micro$uck Windoze. That isn't a secure operating system. Windoze invites every virus and Internet worm and Trojan Horse around to come on in and make yourself at home. Anybody who would put $20 million in a Windoze computer and then connect it to the Internet needs his head examined. That guy is also another candidate for a Darwin Award.

Oh well, have a Merry Christmas anyway.

December 22, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus is coming to me for munchies, same as usual.

Canada Goose
This other goose followed Gus on over to get something to eat.
At the time, I didn't realize the significance of this. I thought that this was just another goose. No, it's Mrs. Gus. She is back. She isn't dead. The weasel didn't kill her.

Previously, I thought that the weasel got Mrs. Gus. (Weasel, or Ermine, or Mink, or whatever they are.) The Weasel/Mink/Ermine likes to ambush female ducks and geese who are sitting on their nests, incubating their eggs. He sneaks up on them at night while they are sleeping and jumps on them. Then he eats both the mother and her eggs. He has killed off all of the female domesticated ducks at the Fernhill Wetlands.

In this case, I guess that Mrs. Gus escaped from the weasel, but he still got her eggs. That freaked her out so much that she flew far away, and stayed away for the rest of the spring, and summer, and fall. She didn't return until the Winter Solstice. Which is a very strange time to return. You would think she would be flying south for the winter. But no, she returned to Gus instead.

Savannah Sparrow
Savannah Sparrow
This little guy is surprisingly tame. He knows the routine. I don't know how he knows the routine, but he does. He knows that I am putting out rolled oats for the birds to eat, so he is watching and waiting for me to move away from the pile of goodies. He isn't flying away in fear when I look at him, or even when I aim the camera at him. He's just waiting for his opportunity to get the goodies. Which he did, soon.

Now this sparrow had already watched while I doled out the oats for Gus and his mate. He saw that I didn't kill or eat Gus. He saw that Gus got on the pile of oats and started eating just as soon as I moved a few feet away from the pile. If the sparrow figured out that he could also get food by copying Gus's behavior, then this sparrow is really a quick study.

Like I've been saying, these wild creatures are far more intelligent than most people give them credit for.

Canada Goose
Mrs. Gus
Compare this picture with previous pictures of Mrs. Gus, here:

You can see how she has the same shapes of white markings on the sides of her head. (And the shapes on the left- and right-hand sides are slightly different. The shape on the right side is a little more bulging, like the shape of the rounded side of the head of a ball-pein hammer.) And then of course there is the simple fact that they are hanging out together, and Gus is very protective of her. Yes, it's Mrs. Gus.

What a Christmas present for Gus. Now he doesn't have to spend the winter alone. And his wife isn't dead and gone after all. Merry Christmas, Gus.

Gus the Greylag Goose plus his Canada Goose wife
Gus the Greylag Goose plus his Canada Goose wife

Gus the Greyland Goose plus his Canada Goose wife
Gus is protectively standing guard and watching me while his wife eats rolled oats.
It isn't that he doesn't trust me. Well, yes it is. He trusts me pretty much, and he will sometimes even eat out of my hands, but he still doesn't trust me with his wife. That's too much to ask.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

Dec. 24, 2013: Merry Christmas everybody. Enjoy the holidays, and be safe and sane and sober.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html#Mark_S ]

Date: December 23, 2013 at 2:09 pm     (answered 24 December 2013)
From: Mark S.
Subject: [The elites] . . .have things firmly in hand . . . and will not let this sucker go down.

The elities of the Assyrian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Egyptian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Babylonian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Macedonian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Roman Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Byzantine Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Carthaginian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Mongol Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Ottoman Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Inca Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Aztec Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Mayan Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Spanish Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Napoleonic Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Japanese Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the British Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Nazi German Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.
The elities of the Soviet Empire had things "firmly in hand" . . . until they didn't.

Oh Riiiigghhhttt . . . . . But This Time It Is Different . . .
The American Empire elites are . . . Special
and will Never Allow this system to go down. *

* People who line up outside the shopping malls at 07:00 pm immediately after Thanksgiving Dinner believe this.

To All,

Have a joyful Winter Solstice and a Happy New Year.

Mark E.

Hello again, Mark,

That reminds me of Frank Zappa's routine, "It can't happen here..."

Have a good day now, and a Merry Christmas.

== Terry

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Stupidity, like hydrogen, is one of the
**      basic building blocks of the universe."
**          ==  Frank Zappa
**     And they thought it couldn't happen here
**          ==  Frank Zappa

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html#Pete_H ]

Date: Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:39 PM     (answered 29 December 2013)
From: Pete H.
Subject: Re: Officer Tom Gow

Here is my blog post and submission about detective Tom Gow and his past crimes. Also submitted to the orangepapers. Let me know if you have any questions. Hope you like it!


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Pete H. wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete H.
> Date: Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Officer Tom Gow
> To: Stefanie McCauley <[email protected]>
> Thanks I have some questions I would like to ask him. I first would like
> to know from  the city of fife what manner of background checks, if any,
> were done  on Tom, including him swearing an oath under penalty of perjury
> if he ever committed the crime of statutory rape, or ever had inappropriate
> sex with a minor. The incident that I am aware of involved a 13 year old
> girl when Tom was 19. I would like a response from the city about what
> background checks were done on Tom. Tom can reach me at this address. I
> have further questions for him. He has offered no comment on past
> inquiries. Thank You,.
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Stefanie McCauley <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>>  Hello Mr. H.
>> Tom Gow is currently employed as a Police Detective.  His hire date with
>> the City is 8/16/2004.
>> Have a good day.
>> Stefanie
>> Stefanie McCauley, PHR
>> Human Resources Manager
>> Civil Service Secretary & Chief Examiner
>> City Manager's Office
>> Phone: 253.896.8605
>> Fife City Hall, 5411 23rd St E, Fife, WA 98424
>> [image: branding logo transparent.png]
>> www.cityoffife.org
>> *From:* Pete H.
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 20, 2013 3:24 PM
>> *To:* cityhall
>> *Subject:* Officer Tom Gow
>> Do you have a police officer there by the name of Tom Gow? I am an
>> investigative journalist who has some questions for him about a
>> relationship he had with a 13 year old girl when he was nineteen. Thank you!
>> —
>> Pete H.
>> Google: AE911truth

-- Pete H.

Google: AE911truth

Hello again, Pete,

Good luck on your work. Sexual predator cops are the last thing we need.

So have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Cy Cheze brilliantly points out the obvious: corporations
**     might be better called "irresponsibilitions."
**     Their sole purpose in existing is to allow people to be
**     able to commit crimes without being able to be held to
**     account.  "Limited liability" = "limited
**     blame-ability" = "limited responsibility"
**     = "irresponsibility"
**        ==  dark goob (Nov 11, 2011)

Date: Wed, December 25, 2013 8:53 am
From: "Pete H."
Subject: Re: Officer Tom Gow

Hey Stephanie is it OK if I refer officer Leon Outwater to apply at the Fife police department? I have admonished him that as long as he is sober and in AA, and his victims are 13 not 12, he can have a job with Tom Gow at Fife! Merry Christmas!


Pete H.

Google: AE911truth

December 22, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Island with birds
Island with birds
Left to right, they are: Two Northern Pintail Ducks, a Canada Goose, another Northern Pintail Duck, a Great Blue Heron, a Great Egret, and many more Northern Pintail Ducks.

Island with birds
Island with birds
Left to right, they are: Two Northern Pintail Ducks, a Canada Goose, another Northern Pintail Duck, an American Coot pecking at a carcass, and a Great Blue Heron.

Island with Egret
Island with Great Egret and Northern Pintail Ducks

Island with birds
Island with birds

Island with Egret
Island with Egret

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[The previous letter from Tony_P is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html#Tony_P2 ]

Date: Sun, December 22, 2013 2:09 pm     (answered 29 December 2013)
From: "Tony P."
Subject: RE: In response to you blog.

Hi Orange-

Seasons greetings to you also- I don't need to drink regardless of what happens Didn't drink when:

  • 1. I lost everything in a financial way
  • 2. "I" divorced my wife because of here actions
  • 3. My best friend passed on
  • 4. My Mother passed on
  • 5. My Sister passed on
  • 6. My Son passed on
  • And I can name a few other major events however I highlighted the major emotional events in my life.

Interesting "shallow" response-

Q. Why do you attack AA as a whole because of the actions of "some individuals"

AA big Book quotes

" Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us. Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you until then."


Hello again, Tony,

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Yes, I've also refrained from drinking alcohol, no matter how bad things got in the last 13 years. Once you really decide to live a different lifestyle, it's a done deal.

You asked:

Q. Why do you attack AA as a whole because of the actions of "some individuals"

No, it is not a matter of just some individuals. That is a standard dodge: Declare that it's just a few bad apples. No, it's the whole darned thing. Alcoholics Anonymous is a fraud and a hoax and quack medicine that does not work and has never worked, and Bill Wilson began lying about the A.A. success rate just as soon as he got A.A. going. Actually, those lies started even before A.A. started, because the Oxford Group also lied about their great success in sobering up alcoholics. Bill Wilson just copied the whole racket.

I notice that you dodged the question about the A.A. cure rate. You just called my response "shallow" and changed the subject. So come on, what is the A.A. cure rate? Out of each 1000 newcomers, how many get a 10-year coin for sobriety?

In your previous letter, you mentioned knowing a few oldtimers with "10-20-30-40 plus years of sobriety." You imagine that those people prove that A.A. works. No they don't. The truth is just the opposite. They prove that A.A. does not work. There are so few of them. If A.A. worked half as well as A.A. members like to claim, then you should have millions of members with more than 10 years of sobriety. Instead, you have a few tens of thousands of such oldtimers, who love to stand up and show off at A.A. conventions doing the "Countdown of Years".

And then you (both you and A.A.) have not ever done a proper survey to determine whether those claimed recoveries were recovery from alcohol addiction or from mental illness or from something else. And you have never sorted out the socialite hangers-on who merely use A.A. as a social club and a lifestyle.

I am reminded of a letter that I received about a youth who grew up in a "rehab" family and was in Alateen as a youth. Then, one evening, he drank one bottle of beer. The next day, he joined A.A. and declared himself an alcoholic and and picked up his beginner's coin, now he has more than 18 years of "sobriety". Eighteen years of "sobriety" after drinking one beer, and that is "an oldtimer recovering from alcoholism"? Gimme a break. Geez.

When you count the oldtimers, you make no attempt to exclude and not count such mental cases who are obviously not real recovery stories.

Thanks for Bill Wilson' deceptive Big Book statement. Alas, that is just another a bait-and-switch trick. Bill Wilson said many moderate-sounding things like that to lure the readers in. Later on, they found that the truth was something else. Bill started with:

Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, A Vision For You, page 164.

Perhaps you are not quite in sympathy with the approach we suggest. By no means do we offer it as the last word on this subject...
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, page 144.

And Bill Wilson rationalized his dishonesty this way, and blamed it on the other guys:

Fitz wanted a powerfully religious document; Henry and Jimmy would have none of it. They wanted a psychological book which would lure the reader in; when he finally arrived among us, there would then be enough time to tip him off about the spiritual character of our society.   ...   As umpire of these disputes, I was obliged to go pretty much down the middle, writing in spiritual rather than religious or entirely psychological terms.
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (1957), William G. Wilson, page 17.

"Lure the reader in"? And later on, he will learn the real nature of the organization? That is called Deceptive Recruiting, and it is a standard cult characteristic.

But then that generous, tolerant-sounding attitude morphed into:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

And the Table of Contents in the same book declares with Orwellian illogic:

Absence of coercion works because unless each AA follows suggested steps to recovery, he signs his own death warrant.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 12.

And the Big Book also says:

About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type [atheists or agnostics]. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life — or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up. Something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 44.

You need not be disconcerted. Coerced religious conversions aren't terribly painful.

And then Wilson wrote that you must conform to the A.A. program. So much for A.A. being an individualist program, like you said in your previous letter.

The AA member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies. At first he goes along because he must, but later he discovers a way of life he really wants to live. Moreover, he finds he cannot keep this priceless gift unless he gives it away. Neither he nor anybody else can survive unless he carries the AA message.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, Tradition One, pg. 130

Conform and obey, you slave, and then go recruiting and fool the prospects with talk about how you don't have to conform. "AA is an individualist program."

Here is a list of the relevant bait-and-switch tricks that A.A. pulls on the unsuspecting newcomers. You can click on each item to get the whole story.

Oh well, have a good day and a happy holiday season now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.  

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html#Ann ]

Date: Sun, December 22, 2013 7:19 pm     (answered 29 December 2013)
From: "Ann"
Subject: Google Search using 'Plea Bargain Alcoholics Anonymous'

Hi Orange,

I've been watching you guys from here in Canada and love everything you are doing. I did this search tonight and have hit the mother load of sites revealing the plea bargains that are including aa. So so many sexual assaults — particularly with minors — where the person is sent to aa.


I know you guys are up on how to search but this one works great.

The other one that works well is 'Petition Alcoholics Anonymous'.

Happy Reading. :-)


Hello Ann,

Thanks for the tip. I'll search those terms as soon as I'm back online.

  • 'Plea Bargain Alcoholics Anonymous'
  • 'Petition Alcoholics Anonymous'

Have a good day now, and a happy New Year.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "By the way, the quotation marks I so liberally resort to are
**     necessary to denote that in such a matrix of rackets things are
**     not what they appear to be but only what they pretend to be."
**       ==  James Howard Kunstler, Newsletter 2013.12.02

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Last updated 1 January 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters382.html