Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLVI

[The previous letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Randaron ]

Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 12:37 pm       (answered 4 June 2013)
From: "Randy R."
Subject: Re: FW: I hope this helps...

My apologize. I did forget to mention that 30 million book sales was over a period of 77 years and the natural attrition rate is due to natural death
And not suicide. Sometimes those looking for statistics will overlook simple truths and would rather state that they commitetd suicide because they drank against there will

Thank you

Hello again, Randy,

Yes, of course I knew that the A.A. book sales were over a 70-year period.

The fact remains that you do not measure the success rate of a treatment program for a "disease", as A.A. calls "alcoholism", by book sales. The numbers for book sales show that Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., in New York City, is a successful publishing house, just like Random House or Simon & Schuster. But that has nothing to do with curing a disease. The book sales are actually irrelevant when it comes to helping alcoholics. But A.A. members love to brag about book sales, as if that makes A.A. big and important and successful. (See the signature below.)

The A.A. attrition rate is not due to "natural death". It is due to dropouts who just quit A.A. The A.A. organization in Australia did a formal study of the problem and found that 95% of the newcomers were gone in a year. They did not all die; they just walked out. (And then some of them ceremonially burned their Big Book and 12X12. I've received several letters from people who did that. Photographs of it, even.)

**     "A well conducted professional study" (page 19) showed that
**     "some 5% of newcomers are still attending meetings
**     after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
**     Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'" (page 2)
**     == Dr. Ron Whitington, Chairman General Service Board,
**     AA Around Australia, Spring Edition No 90, October 1994
**     This quote was verified by A.A. in Australia. Look here.

About the suicides: I never heard of relatives claiming that someone committed suicide, to avoid revealing that someone drank too much. When people want to gloss over death by alcohol, they usually call it death due to complications from liver failure or renal failure.

Oh, and people who die from alcohol abuse are not "drinking against their will".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If you can't prove what you want to prove, demonstrate
**     something else and pretend that they are the same thing."
**       ==  Darrell Huff, How to Lie with Statistics, p. 74.

[The next letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Rick_D ]

Date: Fri, May 31, 2013 12:53 pm       (answered 4 June 2013)
From: "Rick D."
Subject: My story


I went to rehab in 1985 at the age of 24 (my decision), and was told to go to AA upon my return home. I went to meetings for 12 years, worked the steps, service, etc..

In 1997 I wanted a drink (my drug was heroin), and started drinking. I drank because I WANTED TO. I continued going to meetings, I believe due to my ego and not wanting to look like a loser due to the "brainwashing" that I had allowed to happen to me over the years.

I stopped going to AA in 2001 and started using heroin again, BECAUSE I WANTED TO. After a 4 year run, which destroyed my life, I put myself into a detox and returned to AA. Right from my return, I started to see things MUCH differently about AA. The same flowery BS was being spewed by the regulars who had some time and the constant whining and complaining by just about everyone. I knew within myself that "I" had made the decision to get clean again. I started sharing with brutal honesty how I felt about what I was witnessing. Needless to say, it wasn't received too well. I realized that no matter what I shared about my own experience it couldn't help anyone else, they had to do this on their own.

I stopped going to AA in 2006 and my life is incredible. I'm clean 8 years, have a wonderful wife and an amazing daughter. I have nothing to do with anyone in AA and have rebuilt old relationships with people that I lost touch with while in AA.

In my opinion (taken from personal experience), most of the people in AA are broken in one way or another (as I was), and by choice or coercion remain helpless and needy. I knew a gentleman who was clean over 12 years and still called his sponsor everyday to "check-in". And . . . AND, he went to school to get his counseling degree and let his very profitable business go under, because he "knew" that his experience could help others get clean.

I saw it all over the years; 13th stepping, molestation, control freaks, overblown egos, constant relapsing, the list goes on and on and on.. I AM HAPPY, JOYOUS, AND FREE, no thanks to the lunatics in AA.


Hello Duke,

Thank you for the letter and the story, and I'm glad to hear that you are healthy and happy now. Congratulations.

So have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A wise man should consider that health is the greatest
**     of human blessings, and learn how by his own thought
**     to derive benefit from his illnesses.
**       ==  Hippocrates (460 BC — 377 BC), Regimen in Health

[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Fri, May 31, 2013 10:21 pm       (answered 4 June 2013)
From: Meatbag
Subject: Re: Another Bullshit Comment from the Peanut Gallery

I got back from my 21st birthday party not too long ago. I had me two cocktails and two shots over the course of four hours. One of the shots was the free birthday cake shot. So I'm a bit tipsy. Probably can't take my Saphris tonight, but I'll be fine. I actually feel less drunk now than I did with drinking just one bottle of Redd's Apple Ale earlier in the week. I hear that's normal. People overestimate how drunk they are when they drink a little, then underestimate when they drink a lot. And whatever an alcoholic is, I don't think I'm one. I can set a limit to how many drinks I want in a night and stick to it.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Right. That doesn't sound like an alcoholic at all. And happy birthday, and welcome to adulthood. (Although you will find that it doesn't get you as much as you imagined.)

My tablet's still working pretty well, other than the mouse receiver finally dying. Poor thing was bare circuitboard. I just swiped the unifying receiver from my wireless keyboard and paired it with the mouse. It was easy to do, though I don't know if the software works under WINE. The receiver should still work with the keyboard, too. Logitech stuff is great.

Yes, I shall have to get one of those unifying receivers and try it. I have a couple of good Logitech wireless mice without receivers.

How's your tablet doing?

Fine. I finally got the updates figured out, so it is running Android 2.1 and working well. And I got FTP, SSH, and a root terminal window all working. So it really is like a tiny Linux computer. Next I want to repartition the internal SD card because they made the "system" partition far too small. Only 150 MB out of 4 GB. I could use much less "book storage" space and much more system space, because the system space gets full fast when you install a bunch of apps. The tricky part of that is that the card is not removeable, so I need a bootable program that will repartition and reformat the card with three file systems (swap, ext3, and FAT32) all in one go.

And to be fair to human children, goslings do have the advantage of not having grown-ups manufacture and market food to them that are specifically designed to be tasty, but lacking in nutrients. I wonder what this country would look like if advertising during children's programming stayed illegal.

Really. Goslings are not bombarded with TV commercials that teach them to eat bad food. I think that a lot of food company executives should be shipped off to Leavenworth for what they have done to our children. Like High Fructose Corn Syrup in everything. They have literally killed a lot of people. Like with diabetes.

Drunk though I may be, I believe I can still reason better than Randaron. Last I checked, nobody's painting Sigmund Freud like a religious figure. Nobody's making pilgrimages to wherever Freud came from like AAers do with Akron or wherever Bill Wilson came from (cannot be bothered to check). And there's been several decades of advancement in the field of psychology since Freud. Can't say the same for AA.

Yes, really.

Besides, what exactly are people like me supposed to do without psychiatrists? Spend the rest of my life miserable and hallucinating while locked up like a hardened criminal? No thanks. I don't wanna be like you, Randy.

I find it curious how some mentally-ill people just rave about how psychiatrists are so bad, and all wrong, and evil. Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, comes to mind. He was a raving lunatic — a paranoid schizophrenic — who claimed that he had died and returned to life twice. (He's really dead and gone now. Third time is a charm, I guess.) And he died screaming that he was plagued by interplanetary cooties that he couldn't get off of his body. Hubbard taught that we are all bothered by memories of injuries that we suffered in previous lifetimes on other planets, but if you only give him $100,000 or $200,000, he will help you with that problem. And psychiatrists are wrong about everything, and they are just trying to keep human minds enslaved.

Oh yeh, right. Now there's a church that will restore you to sanity. (Not!)

Anyhow, that's enough of that. Did you hear about that Google Wallet thing coming out where you can attach money to an email? I think I'll finally be able to send a few bucks.

Yes, I did hear about it, and I set up an account. And it worked in the sense of I still have not figured out how to set up accepting donations. Their web pages are not at all clear about that. My Google email address is [email protected].

(But people, please do not email to that address. I never check it. It's just a spam bucket. A friend emailed me there and I didn't see his letter for a month. The reason that I don't use Gmail is because Google reads our email to figure out what advertisements to show us next. No privacy whatsoever.)

Last year, they froze my debit card one Saturday when I bought two disk drives online and deactivated the card. I discovered that the card was not working when I tried to pay for a purchase at Goodwill and it was declined.

Worse, the only way to get the card turned back on was to call a particular phishing). But I didn't have a phone. I emailed them and they said that I must call the number. That there was no other way to resolve the problem. Another help line guy said that he would try to fix it, but that didn't happen. That went on for many months and was never really resolved. They just issued me a new card the next year.

of my identification and email them the images. (Enough documents for identify theft.) A friend said that that was illegal. That sudden, arbitrary demand came purchased thousands of dollars of goods, like computers and cameras. Suddenly they didn't believe who I was and I had to prove my identity.

good competing online payment systems so that no one company can dominate the market and become arrogant and demanding.

Now I'm gonna loaf around with Alley, then get some sleep. Some feral cat bit Alley's tail last week, and she has an abscess on it now. We took her to the vet. They shot antibiotics and painkillers in her, and they're both supposed to last for two weeks. I appreciate not having to give a sneaky cat pills, but where's that option for humans? And her butt is staying inside at least until she gets vaccinated. Couldn't vaccinate her during that visit because she had a fever.

I hope your cat recovers okay.

Have a good day now, and a good night.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Good night, good night! parting is such sweet sorrow,
**     That I shall say good night till it be morrow.
**       ==  William Shakespeare  (1564 — 1616)

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]

May 27, 2013, Monday, Memorial Day: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 5

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 5, looking at me expectantly

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 5, eating rolled oats

Canada Goose goslings
6 of the Family of 12
Yes, there is now a family that has 12 little ones. And that 12 number isn't produced by putting two families together; this one mother did it all by herself. I could only get half of the babies in this picture.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Keith_G is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Keith_G ]

From: "Keith G"
Subject: Re: Wow
Date: Tue, June 4, 2013 11:09 am       (answered 5 June 2013)

AA it self sends NO ONE to AA. What courts and probation officers do are not part of AA.

Hello again, Keith,

That is a standard A.A. trick. The A.A. promoters constantly publish articles in professional journals, encouraging the criminal justice system and the rehab system to send people to A.A., telling lies about how good A.A. is at sobering up alcoholics, and then, when people get coerced into A.A., the promoters claim innocense. "We didn't force anybody to attend A.A. meetings."

Brainwashed...really??? I was drinking 2 quarts of alcohol a day (in the end) call it what you will but I am no more religious than I was previously. I have now been sober for several years, I had time before but I never let go of fighting AA on everything, Including Bill Wilson's activities

The fact that you were drinking suicidally immense quantities of alcohol, until you finally chose to quit drinking rather than die, does not in any way show that A.A. makes alcoholics quit drinking. Congratulations on your several years of sobriety. I'm glad you decided not to commit suicide after all. I made the same decision too.

The fact that you broke down and "stopped fighting A.A." just means that you were desperate enough to surrender your life, your will, and your mind to the cult. And that is why you won't be honest and realistic about the facts now.

Yes there are crazy people in AA, at the Ford factory, in the medical field, living next door so what! That is part of life on this planet.

And that is minimization and denial. Denial that A.A. is fatally flawed. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Arguing that A.A. is okay because there are crazies and perverts everywhere is as bad as arguing that because there are pedophile perverts in the Catholic Church, it should be okay to have perverts teaching in our schools, preying on our children. No, it isn't okay. And it isn't okay to have a criminal organization exploiting sick addicts.

The bottom line was it works. There is no more effective way of treating alcoholism for one who has lost the choice whteher he drinks or not.

No it does not work. That is the Big Lie of Alcoholics Anonymous. We have been over that again and again and again, but brainwashed A.A. members will not stop repeating that lie.

Even a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous — Dr. George E. Vaillant — proved that A.A. does not work at all, and just raises the death rate in alcoholics.

Since you have several years in A.A., you should be able to answer these simple questions:

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

Charles Bufe wrote a book "AA Cult or Cure" where he determined the political structure was wonderful and he also did not determine it to be a cult. As a member AA is an offer not a demand. I tell people AA may not be for you I don't know. I tell them I really don't care if they do it or not. My expereince is that it does work. No one at anytime EVER tried to talk me into believing in any scripture or what God was ...it was entirely a personal affair.

Wrong. You are ignoring the second edition of the book. In the first edition, Charles Bufe was hesitant about calling A.A. a cult. But then the Steppers attacked him mercilessly for even mild criticism of their favorite cult, and then a Stepper torched his garage to destroy his files on Alcoholics Anonymous. In the second edition, Charles Bufe was not so reluctant to call A.A. a cult.

A.A. is not an offer when people are forced into it. A.A. is not an offer when a treatment center pulls a bait-and-switch trick and sells A.A. instead of real treatment.

The fact that no one tried to talk you into believing in Bill Wilson's god does not change the fact that lots of other people have had it happen to them. And it wasn't just talk, it was pressure and coercion. I just received a letter from a fellow who is suing for that:

Then check out the A.A. Horror Stories for lots more stories of such abuse of A.A. newcomers:

Especially check out:

  1. Gay sponsor is brainwashing 22 year old newcomer to AA — HELP!   ...   He now prays about EVERYTHING and expects a message or sign from God.

  2. After I gave birth I had severe postpartum depression. I had not healed from the birth and my sponsor told me not to take any medication. ... My sponsor had said that god would heal me and when god wanted me to sleep I would.

  3. As soon as I divulged that "The God of my understanding" is God Almighty (God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit) — I noticed a HUGE change. I experienced being ostrasized, I was keenly made aware that I was the "joke in the room".... people laughed when I "shared" anything. I saw people in the room nodding their head, rolling their eyes at the ceiling, snickering, putting their finger up to their nose and looking in my direction.

  4. I believe I have a very real Faith in God and what goes on in those rooms is at best, a very diluted version of Christian Principles in action...... and at worse, nothing short of evil.   ...   ....I still heard recently that I was thought of, by an 'Elder Statesman' as a very sick man.

Why you attack something that has saved the lives of a countless amount of people is baffling. If you don't like it leave it be.

A.A. has not saved countless lives. A.A. does not work. A.A. kills more people than it saves.

That has been shown over and over again:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A increased binge drinking.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A increased the rate of rearrests.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that A.A increased the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.
  4. Drs. Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
  5. Dr. Vaillant, who went on to become an A.A. trustee, found that A.A. did not increase sobriety in alcoholics at all, not even a little bit, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.

The fact that you see a few sober people with several years of sobriety at meetings only shows that some sober people are attending the meeting. You don't know what made them get sober. The truth is, they quit drinking because they chose to. The fact that they yammer about how A.A. saved their lives shows that they have been hoodwinked and indoctrinated into believing and repeating falsehoods. Yes, they have been brainwashed.

Then of course there is the status thing. When someone with several years of Time speaks at a meeting and delivers the standard rap about A.A. and God saving him, he gets status and group acceptance and Brownie Points and admiration of the newcomers. If he tells the truth, and says that he got himself sober by determinedly sticking to the decision to not drink any more, and that the 12 Steps and God didn't do anything for him, he gets hated and ostracized and maybe even attacked. So which do you hear more at meetings?

What would you do if lets say your son or daughter was drinking and couldn't stop..just tell them to not drink no matter what? And lets say they couldn't do that...what would they have to lose?

I would talk to them about the damage that alcohol does, and remind them that alcohol is one of the worst of drugs. And I'd send them to SMART and SOS. And have them read Jack Trimpey's books, like The Small Book and Rational Recovery. Heck, I'd have them read my entire "Top 10" list of books.

Then I would point them to the discussions of how I and others quit: How did you get to where you are?

In addition, they are not powerless over alcohol... "just couldn't stop". Addiction is a choice.

Even Carl Jung believed that alcoholics of the hopeless variety need to have some sort of spiritual expereince and he was a man of science and medicine.

Bullshit. That is one of the lies that Bill Wilson made up. Carl Jung never said any such thing. That whole story about Carl Jung telling Rowland Hazard that he must have a spiritual experience or he would die was just Bill's Bull, another scarey fairy tale intended to fool and frighten people into joining Bill's cult. "The Big Bad Booze Bogeyman will get you unless you believe in Bill's religion."

If you think that Jung said it, find the quote in his writings. It isn't there. Lots of us have been searching The Collected Works of Carl Jung for years, searching for anything like Jung proclaiming that alcoholics must have a spiritual experience, and Jung never said that.

Scaring patients with threats of death was what Dr. William Silkworth did, not Carl Jung. That was not Jung's style.

Then came that little man that we who live in this area saw so much, him with the kind blue eyes and white hair, Doc Silkworth. You'll remember that Doc said to me, "look Bill, you're preaching at these people too much. You've got the cart before the horse. This 'white flash' experience of yours scares those drunks to death. Why don't you put the fear of God into them first. You're always talking about James and The Varieties of Religious Experiences and how you have to deflate people before they can know God, how they must have humility. So, why don't you use the tool of the medical hopelessness of alcoholism for practically all those involved. Why don't you talk to the drunk about that allergy they've got and that obsession that makes them keep on drinking and guarantees that they will die. Maybe when you punch it into them hard it will deflate them enough so that they will find what you found.
Bill Wilson, speaking at the Memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952

We have discussed this issue before too, several times. Look here:

  1. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters2.html#Carl_Jung
  2. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters13.html#Rowland
  3. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters16.html#Rowland
  4. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters67.html#Rowland
  5. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters245.html#Rajiv_B
  6. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters249.html#Andrew_M
  7. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters286.html#Jung
  8. http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters343.html#Jung

UPDATE: In response to this letter, I went to the library and got a bunch of Jung's books, to see what he really said. Here is: What Carl G. Jung really said about treating alcoholism

What do you believe would be better for the person who can't stop? And lets say they have tried what you suggested?

I already listed better things above.

Again, you are repeating Bill Wilson's bull about "just can't stop". That isn't how it works. People drink when they wish to, and stop when they really want to.

The single biggest factor in whether someone will quit drinking (or doping or smoking) is MOTIVATION. People do not quit bad habits until they really want to quit doing it. Just saying, "I want to quit," is not good enough. As soon as the withdrawal and the cravings hit, the guy changes his mind and goes back to indulging his addiction. He is doing just what he wants to do at that minute. He is not powerless. He is making a choice. People need a really strong reason to quit an addiction; they must be strongly motivated to override a bad habit that they have had for years.

I was in the same boat. I supposedly just couldn't quit drinking and smoking, I had failed repeatedly, and backslid on smoking more times than I could count, and it was killing me. I had been drinking for 20 years and smoking for 30.

Then the doctor told me to quit drinking or die, choose one. And I was so sick that I could believe him. I thought it over for a while, like a month, and got some more alcohol and drank on it and thought about it some more, and then I decided to live, so I quit everything. All at once. Just like that. Now I have 12 years off of alcohol, tobacco, and drugs. And I am so much healthier and happier. Life is good.

Addiction is a choice. Drinking is a choice. It's a bad choice, but it's a choice. So is cigarette smoking (which Bill Wilson never quit). So is taking drugs (which Bill Wilson also did, after he got "sober").

And millions of people have quit those bad habits without joining a cult religion.

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "You don't realize how strong you can be until it is your only choice."
**       ==  Avogadno

May 31, 2013, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Mongrel Ducks
3 of the Mongrel Ducks, eating bread
These guys are my regular customers, and tame as can be, and come running for munchies whenever they see me.

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 2, eating bread

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 2

Canada Goose goslings
An older Family of 2

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Donald_L ]

Date: Mon, June 3, 2013 7:45 pm       (answered 7 June 2013)
From: "Donald L."
Subject: [Orange Papers] Sent to a 12 Stepper, they will probably 'delete'....

Donald L. posted in Orange Papers

Sent to a 12 Stepper, they will probably 'delete'....

I spent 19 years in the 12 Step Program of AA and a year in NA. I was a co founder of NA in Spanish in 1988 in Guatemala City, as local Guatemalan AA meetings it was forbidden then to speak of drug use. In New York City I was active in chairing Beginners Meetings using "Living Sober" instead of the Big Book, more common sense, that was squashed by the powers that be. I also sponsored several ex convicts from the Bowery Residence Program as I had been homeless myself. I volunteered with AA World Services and brought the first AA literature to then Communist Poland in 1982 to be translated and we donated literature in Spanish to groups unable to afford them and in 1992 our English language AA groups in Mexico City sent literature to the first Cuban AA group. Was proud of all this of course, made many friends in AA.

However by 1994 could no longer tolerate much of what I heard and saw in AA meetings. The last straw was all that I had shared in confidence in my home group was spread all over town and at one point my life was threatened. I no longer COME, I CAME TO BELIEVE THAT I WAS EMPOWERED AND NOT 'POWERLESS' AND I CAME TO, AWOKE TO THE FACT AA WAS NOT FOR ME!!!! I am Abstinent and Atheist, Moral without 'prayer' and coping with life without listening to either Psycho or "God" BABBLE.

Best to all of you, the 5 to 10% who stay in AA, and to others, do not drink and drive, you will be remanded to AA, a Religion!

Reply to this email to comment on this post.


(click on image for enlargement.)

Hello Donald,

Thank you very much for the history. I find it incredible that even an old-timer is not safe in A.A.

Oh well, have a good day now, and welcome to freedom.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast;
**     a wild beast may wound your body,
**       but an evil friend will wound your mind.
**         ==  Buddha

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#JG ]

Date: Wed, June 5, 2013 7:19 pm       (answered 7 June 2013)
From: "JG"
Subject: Thank you for the gift of sanity

I wrote a letter long ago. But I did just want to drop a note — you saved my sanity. I had spent years drinking way too much and finally thought that I'd had enough. Sadly, I was ignorant of what AA truly was. I relied on the fallacy of their public face. I thought that I would find support in a welcoming environment to help me be a better person. How wrong I was.

I entered a sober living facility in december of 2011. I was required to attend 5 meetings a week, and to attend house meetings twice a week. I soon discovered that these were not healthy people I wanted to emulate — but a social circle of self congratulating hypocrites who quickly showed their true colors. My activities were closely monitored and made a discussion piece for the other roommates. I was instructed to only take 1 class a semester at the local junior college (I was returning to school after a long hiatus), since anything more might damage my sobriety. (Also, because that's how the house owner ran his sobriety, and thus it's the best possible way.) I was instructed to find a god, but when I attempted to rekindle an interest in Buddhism was told that I should instead give the program a chance first since I did not know best. I had a sponsor, who was a friend of the landlord, thrust upon me — and was castigated when I did not regularly call him at 6pm sharp even though my job usually happened at those hours.

Speaking of my job — I had sought out many better office jobs, but was told that I needed a low level starting job for my sobriety. So I became a bagboy at a supermarket. I was told that this would give me the skills for sobriety I needed. I was told not to rush my improvement. How wrong they were. This held me back and kept me trapped in their home.

Your site was a saving grace during that time. It was reassuring to see the misgivings I held private put into writing. I truly think you saved my life and sanity during those days. I am intellectual by nature, and never trusted AA's war on intelligence. My first sponsor dumped me because of that and I am ever thankful — too many people give up resilience and free will to this cult. I don't malign current practitioners — anything that gives their life improvement should be celebrated. I merely hope they will one day see that they are the keys to their own destiny.

These days I'm free. I live my life unburdened by their threats of "Jails, hospitals, and death". Any time I see one of them on the street I get to say I'm doing great and watch them desperately rationalize that I'm either in denial, damned, or soon will be.

And I wouldn't trade places with a single one of them.

(If you publish, which you can, just put me as JG)

Hello JG,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and congratulations on your freedom and sanity. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. And I'm really happy to hear that you escaped from the madhouse.

I'm adding this letter to the list of A.A. Horror Stories. It's a fair warning of what can happen in "half-way houses".

The sentence about "watch them desperately rationalize that I'm either in denial, damned, or soon will be" gave me a laugh. Yes, I know that experience too. I can't count how many of them have said that I'm going to relapse real soon now because I'm not practicing the 12 Steps, and I dare to criticize A.A. and Bill Wilson: "You will still relapse. Somebody with a resentment as big as yours can't help but go back out."

(Although I'm not hearing that so much lately. After 12 years, I think they got tired of waiting.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth
**       is not worth many regrets.
**         ==  Arthur C. Clarke

BLOG NOTE: 2013.06.10: There is a very interesting thread over in the forum, about ASAM. ASAM is the "American Society of Addiction Medicine", a club for fallen doctors who have lost their licenses to practice medicine because of drug and/or alcohol problems, and who have "recovered" through the 12 Steps, and who are now scheming to foist their religion on everybody else. There is an scholarly paper listed there that is well-documented, and it explains how ASAM has weaseled itself into a position where it can pass judgement on other doctors as the judge and jury for all addiction issues in medical personel. See:

May 31, 2013, Friday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A Gosling of the Family of 2, begging for more bread.

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4 starting to eat rolled oats

Canada Goose goslings
Another Family of 4, grazing, eating green sprouts

Canada Goose goslings
A Canada Goose pair, eating bread. The seagull is trying to figure out how to get in there and get it.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Andre_P ]

Date: Fri, June 7, 2013 9:19 am       (answered 11 June 2013)
From: "Andre P."
Subject: [Orange Papers] Bill Wilson's 10 COMMANDMENTS.

Andre P. posted in Orange Papers

Bill Wilson's 10 COMMANDMENTS.

1. Thou Shalt Not Fall in Love With The Old Timer:

This is the most common newcomer mistake. The thing to remember is that this is a sexual release for the Old Timer/Sponsor. Their goal is to get as much sex from the newcomer as possible in the shortest amount of time so they can move to the next Newcomer. Most Sponsors/Old Timers take the emotional attention/declarations of love the wrong way. Just because he says you are cute doesn't mean that he wants to marry you. Sponsors/Old Timers will tell a newbie anything she wants to hear to get laid. They are there dominate and that's it. Don't let it go to your head.

2. Thou Shalt Not Spend Your Rent Money:

Whenever you go to a meeting, it's a good idea to budget how much you plan to spend. If you can afford 100 bucks, that's all you should bring to the meeting. You don't want to be put out on the street because someone confessed on how he is struggling financially and you couldn't stop handing him/her money. The Sponsor/Old Timer is not going to return the money and is not going to feed your family. And seriously, do you really want to explain to your wife that you can't take her out to eat because your Sponsor took your last 200 bucks? I think not. Be smart about it and don't spend more than you can afford.

3. Thou Shalt Not Touch The Old Timer in the meeting:

However, some Old Timers/Sponsors will let you touch them. But most will not. A good rule of thumb to follow is to let the Old Timer/Sponsor take the lead. If a 13 stepper is sitting 5 feet in front of you, his body language is saying "hands off bitch" Then you have the ones that will grind down directly next to you or grab your hands and put them where he wants them. Those are my personal favorites because an interactive meeting is the best meeting. Sometimes he will put your hand near his crotch, but don't fall for that age old trick and do not under any circumstances touch it in the meeting. That will get you kicked out the meeting pretty damn fast and probably earn you a good serenity rant as well. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

4. Thou Shalt Not Pay Attention To Those Who Question The Dogma:

At just about every meeting I've been to, the Angry Person talks shit. Don't let that affect your good time. While he makes his gay jokes and berates the Old Timers for not thinking straight, stay focused on the reason you came: Sex. After all, you are in recovery and you can do whatever you want. Don't let the fear of embarrassment cause you to get pressured into not kissing your Sponsor's arse.

5. Thou Shalt Not Get Drunk:

A Old Timer/Sponsor getting drunk at a meeting is a risky prospect. Firstly, the alcohol may cause you to pay attention to an ugly or fat Newcomer. You know what they say about lowered inhibitions. Secondly, if you are in an inebriated state, you are far more likely to do something stupid like touch the your previous sponsee. You don't want to go that route. Finally, the money that you will spend on drinks could be put to far better use by buying the pretty newcomer that coffee. Some Old Timers would suggest drinking beer because it costs less than liquor and you have a much greater chance of staying sober. A side note I feel I must add is that LSD and Belladonna does not make you drunk!

6. Thou Shalt Not Use Plastic:

Another common Old Timer/Sponsor mistake I see way to often. Don't bring your credit or debit card into a meeting. All that's going to do is create an electronic trail of your whereabouts. Imagine your wife's surprise when she gets the monthly bill and sees a $500 charge to a jewelry store for jewelry she did not get. Don't think you'll be out of the doghouse anytime soon. Hit up the ATM before you even get near the meeting. It's just smarter and also more fun to use cash. You can't tip a prostitute with a credit card receipt, nor will they take your plastic, all of them prefer money in the color green for all transactions.

7. Thou Shall Pick Wisely:

This one is very important. You know what you like. If you like short girls, get one. If you like big booties, by all means pick that one. Nothing sucks worse than hitting a newcomer you are not attracted to in the first place. They are going to ask you for a advice, but please listen to the little voices in your head and politely decline to be their sponsor. And if your dream girl is on the other side of the meeting, don't settle for the closest thing to you. You will not be satisfied. It also is not a good idea to sponsor a newcomer because she reminds you of your girlfriend or wife, really bad mistake. You can see that at home, you are 13th Stepping an newcomer to give you a brand new experience. Once you become a 13 Step pro like I am, you can spot the girls that are going to be the freakiest. Make sure that's the newcomer you hit on every single time. You can also sample a variety of different skin tones and body types without repeating yourself. So pick wisely. As I have said in the past, AA meetings are very similar to a "meat market" leaving the Old Timer/Sponsor with many choices and combinations.

8. Thou Shalt Not Infringe On Another's Sponcee:

One of my pet peeves about meetings Old Timers/Sponsors who don't hit on their own Sponcees. These characters will sit up in the meeting all night and hit on your meat. It is well within your right to do this, but if I am spending my precious time on a Newcomer, don't stare at your Sponcee. Keep your eyes on the stage; this is my table dance. And please, do not talk to me during my dance. I can't count how many times I've heard someone buzzing in my ear about one thing or another while I was getting a dance. I know she's hot, that's how come I'm paying. Leave me alone and get your own dance.

9. Thou Shalt Not Use Your Last Name:

No good can come from using your real name. I've seen Sponsors/Old Timers give out their last name, phone number and place of employment to newcomers. Why? This serves no purpose other than to potentially mess up your happy home. If a 13th Stepper would have used a fake name, he could have at least chalked all coincidental situation up to mistaken identity. This also goes for email lists. Don't give them your real email address or you will be getting messages from crying newcomers for the rest of your natural life. For some reason, you just can't unsubscribe from a newcomers mailing list no matter how hard you try. Bottom line is this: newcomers are encouraged not to use their real names so why should you?

10. Thou Shall Hand Your Friend A Newcomer:

There are unspoken rules when going to meetings with a friend. You have to get him a newcomer, especially if this is his first time. This is mandatory even if he has more girls than you. This shows that he is your friend and you will look out for him. The newcomer has to be super dirty too. If you organize him a shag from the obligatory ugly girl at the meeting, you are really sending the wrong message altogether. If you get your friend a newcomer, and he doesn't do the same for you, he is a moocher, y'all should part ways, because you're better off going to the meeting by yourself.

So, in review, follow these commandments and your next 12 Step experience can become your best 13th Step experience. One other thing to remember is that there will be many female Old Timers/Sponsors at the meeting, usually they are there just to have a good time, and not to find a man. Leave them alone and focus on the girls that you know will be taking their clothes off. If you are looking to meet women, you should check out a dating service. But if you are looking to have a good time at the meetings and shag as many newcomers as possible, follow Bill's 10 Commandments.


Hello Andre,

Thanks for the laugh. Oh, and I thought I was cynical.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Tom Powers, co-author of Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, said,
**     "This sex thing ran through the whole business.
**     It wasn't just an episode."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html#Jim ]

Date: Sun, June 9, 2013 9:09 pm       (answered 11 June 2013)
From: "Jim"
Subject: Hi

I read many of your pages online tonight. I disagree with your fundamental premise, that people do not have a spiritual component and I believe this flaw in your logic undermines your entire treatise. You can not prove there is no god and neither can I prove that one exists.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless Device

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the letter.

My "fundamental premise" is certainly not that humans do not have a "spiritual component". I never said that there is no spirituality or no God. What I said is that there is no Santa Claus, and you cannot get what you want by praying or begging a ghost or fairy or stone idol or "god" to give you the goodies.

Personally, I have been studying and loving spiritual things since the nineteen-sixties. That is why I object to criminal frauds, like cult leaders, selling fake spirituality to the young people. If I didn't love spirituality, I wouldn't care so much about the con artists cheating people in the name of God.

I have actually been talking about spirituality all through my papers. I do not try to push it, because I'm not trying to sell any religion, but I never denied spirituality or its existence. What I have said is that Bill Wilson did not have any, and he was a lying fraud who exploited sick people, and that is unforgiveable.

Some of the things that I said in my pages are:

One Indian judge said, while ruling on a dispute between two brothers, both of whom claimed to be "The One And Only Perfect Master", that "There is no lower crime than deceiving men in the name of God", and I feel the same way. (It turns out that the judge was quoting Mahatma Gandhi.)

And Mahatma Gandhi said,

I know of no greater sin than to oppress the innocent in the name of God.
== Mahatma Gandhi, April 1947.
All Men Are Brothers, Mahatma Gandhi, page 73.

(Please click on those links for the whole story.)

The web page that deals most with the false religion and fake spirituality of Alcoholics Anonymous is this one: The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     For me to sit with a new guy and tell him he needs God and he needs
**     to work the steps in order to save his life is tantamount to murder
**     or at least some form of assisted suicide.
**       ==  posted by Rant at 9:37 am, Monday, November 5, 2012, on
**         http://moynihaninstitute.blogspot.com/2012/11/aa-kills-more-drunks-than-it-helps.html

[The next letter from Jim is here.]

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Last updated 2 August 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters356.html