Letters, We Get Mail, CCXLI

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Tom_H ]

Date: Sat, May 28, 2011 10:26 am     (answered 30 May 2011)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Let's Forgive Orange for his Anger

I have been one of the most critical and verbally expressive about Agent Oranges attitude and anger on this site for many, many years. I have thrown bricks and stones and insults at Terry from the beginning. Trust me the guy can take a punch. But to no avail. My frustration at Orange is that he is shooting himself in the foot with his endless anger which he attempts to blame on the abuses of A.A. and how A.A. is "foisting voodoo medicine on desperate, vulnerable alcoholics." I happen to agree that A. A. is in fact, fucking up most people that walk in the doors to meetings. BUT, Oranges anger is not JUST with A.A. but numerous issues ranging from child abuse to the right wing conspiratal therories of our government. We are dealing with one angry mother-fucker that has lived in the woods and tripped on acid and is extremely lonely. Once again, my frustration at Terry is his enormous potential abilities to make changes to help his fellow alcoholic brothers and sisters.

But the dude cannot help himself from throwing verbal bombs and going all out radical. It's just the way he is wired.

Now let's chat for a second about what is good about Agent Orange from Portland, Oregon okay ?

Orange's heart is in the right place and he is truely attempting to help others. He is good about feeding ducks and being kind to other human beings. I also dont think, in years past, Terry would have fucked another person on a dope deal and I believe he would have been a pretty mellow guy even when fucked up on alcohol. Overall I think Terry would be the kind hippy, guru type next door that would be bring home little baby ducks to take care of them.

Okay, enough about Terry's personality. His library onsite here, is of course, biased toward the elimination of A.A. and I happen to agree almost entirely with his views and postings. I am extremely well educated with the history and workings of A.A. ( and formally educated) and have double digit years of no drinkee booze. I was a shit in your pants alcoholic who took this malady to the bottom. And what a ride it was. My sympathy towards the suffering alcoholic is tremendous. I think A.A. is much more dangerous than even Agent Orange discusses. But Oranges site has assisted me with some good stats. And for that I am grateful for his work. My hope and prayers are that the medical field will continue with advances much faster than they are doing now and they can help alcoholics with this MEDICAL problem. A.A. needs to get the fuck out of the way of medicine and scientific research so the alcoholic suffering can eventually be eliminated. I continue to be flabberghasted at the lack of realistic knowledge within the rooms of A.A. meetings by its "members" of what the "fellowship" is really all about. It simply blows my mind.

In closing, please trust me that I am not some secret agent for Terry attempting to recruit money for him at all. But if the people writing in sent Terry even five bucks once in a while through his paypal site it would really help. This dude is living hand to mouth at best. It takes goofy fuckers like him to help make necessary humanitarian changes.

Take care and bless you people.

Hello again Tom,

Thanks for the compliments, and of course you know I disagree with the criticism.

You know, it just does not matter whether I am angry. That will not change the A.A. success rate or failure rate by one single percentage point. My "mental problems", or the lack of them, have nothing to do with the fact that A.A. is a failure and a hoax and just another cult religion, and "treatment" for drug and alcohol problems is an expensive fraud.

As far as mixing issues goes, yes, I do mix in issues like child abuse. That is highly relevant. Lots of children of alcoholics get abused, and they often go on to become alcoholics themselves, just killing the pain. Child abuse is not "an outside issue".

As far as right-wing conspiracies go, I don't really get into conspiracy theories much. I prefer facts. And the facts are pretty grim. Wall Street just wrecked the economy by gambling with the entire world's finances. Wall Street operators committed massive fraud, and not a single person has been prosecuted for it and sent to Leavenworth. Bernie Madoff doesn't count there because he was doing something else, running his own Ponzi scheme, and he turned himself in. But what is Attorney General Holder doing about the massive crimes committed on Wall Street? Nothing.

We know that Goldman Sachs is so corrupt that they even sold deals to investors, telling them that it was a great deal, while secretly buying credit default swaps against the deal, betting that it would fail and the investors would lose billions. Where are the prosecutions? Why is Attorney General Eric Holder the most inactive Attorney General in recent memory?

And conspiracy? Have you noticed how many campaign donations Goldman Sachs gave out? Both George W. Bush and Barrack Obama got them. That is not a conspiracy theory, that is facts.

Now, in the Citizens United decision, the Supreme Court just ruled that corporations can donate unlimited amounts of money to political candidates. That is actually nothing new, but previously, the corporations had to do it surreptitiously, by laundering money through sham committees and PACs. Now the corruption can be blatant. Heck, in America, there is very little difference between big business, politics, and organized crime. And the big criminals just don't get prosecuted.

Now, many Senators and Congressmen, mostly Republicans, refuse to fix the regulations governing how Wall Street operates. They actually believe that Wall Street can govern itself and regulate itself. And you think that I am nuts?

Heck, we can go all the way back to Enron. Here in Portland, Oregon, we have an electric company called PGE (Pacific Gas and Electric). Well, Enron bought PGE (with worthless Enron stock) and then made PGE into an energy trading desk, so that the two of them could trade energy contracts back and forth and jack up the price until they bled California dry. Do you remember the tape recording of two PGE energy traders talking on the phone, laughing about how they were stealing Grandma's life savings in California, and hell would freeze over before she got her money back? Ha-ha. Those guys were never prosecuted. The only guys actually prosecuted for the Enron crimes were Ken Lay and Andy Fastow, the CFO who turned state's witness. Then Ken had the good sense to drop dead while appealing his conviction, which means that people cannot sue the estate and get their money back, because, since Ken Lay is now dead and cannot defend himself, the appeal was never properly finished and the conviction was never finalized. So it doesn't count. So the Enron criminals get to keep their stolen money because fraud has never been "proven". How convenient. If you want a conspiracy theory, why don't you ask what somebody put in Ken Lay's morning coffee? His death sure was profitable to a lot of people.

Okay, enough of politics and organized crime. You will notice that I actually do not talk about that stuff much. I mention it in passing, just now and then. I cannot remain totally silent on the subject. But still, the major interest of this web site is alcoholism and drug addiction, and recovery, and the hoaxes that don't cure drug and alcohol problems, like A.A.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If you ain't angry, you ain't paying attention."
**        ==  Mumia Abu Jamal

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Saundra ]

Date: Fri, May 27, 2011 6:35 pm     (answered 30 May 2011)
From: "Saundra R."
Subject: I'm writing a term paper on alcoholism

Do I need your permission to quote you?

Actually, legally, you don't need permission to quote anybody. It's called the "Fair Use" clause of the Copyright Act.

But I don't mind if you quote me, anyway.

So have fun and good luck with your paper.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
**     It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**       ==  Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued:

Canada Goose Family
The family with the adopted orphan (or orphans)
The orphan is the small one front and center, behind its bigger step-brother.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

FORUM LINK: 2011.05.31:

People were asking for some hyperlinks to this stuff, because it is so good:

JRHarris wrote:

I just found the Arid site where Mark D. Baum (a.k.a. dr. bomb) tried to give his acceptance speech Five-Year Coin Acceptance Speech and was practically attacked because he was leaving and being very critical of AA. It is worth the read:

Actual speech he was not allowed to finish:


Interesting links to other stuff that was going on in AA around 2006 in Pennsylvania:


The discussion thread is at:

Have a good day now.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Tony_C ]

Date: Mon, May 30, 2011 11:03 pm     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: "Tony C."
Subject: Laugh a minute

Having just being informed about your website, started reading the gumph, one must admit that you have a keen sense of humour.

How to begin, (start), after being in recovery for many years there is always doubt about the recovery trip. but reading your website and and seeing the numerous doubt that goes on around soceity, can one blame any one thing at all.

As you have mentioned in some posting that yes AA does promote the twelve steps of recovery, and yes it works for a very small amount of people, but one has to ask is AA to blame or the amount of rubbish that is shared outside of AA meetings.

Although recovery centers will show the road, 90 meetings in ninety days, it is still up to the individual to make a decision, and most choose to revert back to the old ways of socialising. Soceity once deemed Alcohol a bad thing (Prohibition) and henceforth anything bad is always great.

When looking into relapse reasoning and how most recovery centers work towards helping even though a small minority of people, there is success.

Looking at Your pick up rates of badge collectors, its great for an archie comic.



Hello Tony,

Thank you for the letter.

Starting at the top, I do not say that the 12 Steps work for a few people. I say that they don't work to make anybody quit drinking. The effective A.A. success rate, above normal spontaneous remission, is zero. As you said in your later paragraphs, people have to make the decision themselves. Practicing Frank Buchman's fascistic old cult religion has nothing to do with quitting drinking or developing a positive, balanced lifestyle, and Buchmanism does not make people quit drinking or even help them to quit drinking.

Your remarks about the numbers of coins given out for various sobriety times seem to indicate that you don't believe my numbers. Heck, you don't need my numbers. Go to A.A. meetings for a while and see the truth with your own eyes. People are forever picking up the 1-day coins, or 30-day coins. Or 60 or 90. But the numbers of people picking up 3-year or 7-year or 10-year coins are miniscule. The truth is self-evident.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
**     over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
**        ==  Richard Feynman

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Denise_O ]

Date: Sun, May 29, 2011 12:42 pm     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: "Denise O."
Subject: you have a point!

Hi Mr. Orange,

I wrote to you about twenty days ago telling you I was doing great in AA. Which I'm still sober, but I had a recent rather nasty experience with my sponsor. She totally surprised me by her actions. So much so that since last Sunday, I have not returned; am still sober. (That particular Sunday, after she totally lashed out on me for not attending more than one meeting a day — I went to the noon meetings each and every day!) she bitterly said I am not sober, but a ?dry drunk?.

But that wasn't anything compared to the other horrors she shrewed out at me.

I didn't get to read all of what you researched as it is very lengthy, but given the time it would be nice.

Personally the twelve steps in and of themselves are quite noble. And I do believe in God, and seriously find Him to have helped me. Following those twelve steps (except for the first one where we admit to failure) (that can't be good?) has helped me to better myself as a person. I'm a better person now, if that makes sense to you, which I hope it does!

But some of these cult-like members take it to extreme. I have to admit you really have a point!

So thanks for sharing.


Hello Denise,

Thank you for the letter and congratulations on your sobriety.

I have no problem with people doing things like honest self-examinations and seeing what is right or wrong with them. But that is not what the 12 Steps really do. The 12 Steps are merely Bill Wilson's rewrite of the practices of Frank Buchman's cult religion, the "Oxford Group". And the Steps are very negative and really mess with people's heads.

One of the core beliefs of Buchmanism is that you have been defeated by sin and are powerless over it. That is Step One, of course. Bill Wilson merely substituted the word "alcohol" for "sin" when he wrote down Frank Buchman's Oxford Group practices as the 12 Steps. Buchmanites claimed that the best hope for anybody was to "surrender to God" and hope that God would make a properly-behaved little puppet out of him, a robot who was constantly "guided by God" and made to do the right things:

      What we want to do is get in touch with Him and turn our lives over to Him. Where should we go to do it?
      At once the lad replied:
      "There is only one place — on our knees."
      The lad prayed — one of those powerful, simple prayers which are so quickly heard by Him who made the eye and the ear: "Oh Lord, manage me, for I cannot manage myself."
For Sinners Only, A. J. Russell, (Harper & Brothers, New York and London, 1932), p. 62.

Another core belief of Buchmanism is that people are separated from God by unconfessed sins. That is why every meeting is a confession session where people are supposed to confess what they have done lately. That is of course not compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Neither is the idea of being controlled by God. What Jesus taught is that people should get control of themselves and stop doing wrong things and actively do the right things. Jesus never said anything like that God would make a good little robot out of you if you confess and surrender enough.

Please read the file The Heresy of the Twelve Steps. In there, I talk about a lot of the ways in which the A.A. theology is unChristian, and often, just the opposite of Christian.

Lastly, we must consider what "Working The Steps" for many years actually does to people. I am reminded of what a 20-year oldtimer wrote to me several years ago:

"Old timers in AA are often an angry lot: a mask of serenity with a seething cauldron underneath."

It's just like how your sponsor lashed out at you. Please ask yourself, "Do you really want to become like her?"

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     What is the difference between surrendering your Will
**     and your life to "Higher Power" in Step Three, and
**     selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Gabriel_T ]

Date: Wed, June 1, 2011 12:22 pm     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: "Gabriel T."
Subject: Serious question!!

Hey i was just wondering if it would be possible to sue the state for making me go to a program(AA) that "brainwashed me" into believing i have no chance of recovery and will eventually either die or end up in prison, made me hopeless and led to suicidally intense binges that caused all my legal problems and suffering over the past few years. i mean really, thats literally what it did. i drank a little before i was ordered to attend AA but then i wasnt ready to quit and started believing it was pointless to continue living and drank myself into oblivion which led to arrests for dumb things i would have never done sober. Do you think its even worth attempting to sue the state of Ga?

Thanks — Gabriel

Hello Gabriel,

Thanks for the letter. That's a really good question.

First off, let me say that I'm not a lawyer. All that I can do is give you my first impression. And here it is:

It would be very difficult, nearly impossible, to sue for mental damage caused by A.A. You would need several psychiatrists who would all testify that you were in great mental shape before you went to A.A., and then they really messed up your head. Without such solid documentation of the facts, the defending attorney will just argue that you drank before A.A., and you drank after A.A., so it isn't A.A.'s fault.

But there is one thing that you can sue for: being coerced into the A.A. religion. The case of Inouye v. Kemna established that the individual officials who coerce religion can be sued. That includes judges, parole officers, prison officials, counselors, and any other person in a position of authority who forced someone to go to A.A. meetings. Legally, it does not matter whether you were harmed. All that matters is that you were forced into a religious service against your will.

For some more discussions of that case, look

  1. here and
  2. here, and
  3. the Inouye v. Kemna case.

Oh, and you might ask the ACLU if they would like to take the case.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man
**     shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious
**     worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be
**     enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body
**     or goods, or shall otherwise suffer, on account of his
**     religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be
**     free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their
**     opinions in matters of religion, and that the same in no
**     wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
**     == from the Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia,
**          authored by, among others, Thomas Jefferson

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Renee ]

Date: Wed, June 1, 2011 8:14 am     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: Renee
Subject: ANGER??

[Quote from the previous letter from Tom: ]

Oranges anger is not JUST with A.A. but numerous issues ranging from child abuse to the right wing conspiratal therories of our government. We are dealing with one angry mother-fucker that has lived in the woods and tripped on acid and is extremely lonely. Once again, my frustration at Terry is his enormous potential abilities to make changes to help his fellow alcoholic brothers and sisters.

Sorry Orange.... I really was not going to write ANOTHER letter to you, but I cannot ignore Tom's recent letter to you. I would like to ask Tom a few simple questions. What is wrong with being angry about child abuse?

What is wrong with being angry at the recent criminal activity of the oligarchs who wiped out completely the wealth of millions of people, in this country and around the world?

What is wrong with being angry with AA? Why even you Tom, think it has done more harm than good....or do you....really?

You are wrong Tom....Agent Orange has done what it seems no one has been able to do. He has exposed AA for the fraudulent enterprise that it is. In fact I suspect you are just another AA troll who is deeply afraid of the truth. I used to be like you.....trapped in a lifestyle of hopelessness, yet always ready and willing to defend it to the death. For over 25 years I was a true believer. I remember defending AA on various message boards. I argued with deep venom and hatred in my heart towards anyone who would question the "simple program" as outlined in the first 164 pages of the sacred Big Book. Problem is Tom, I was miserable and unhappy.... I sponsored many women, most of whom needed a shrink, not a sponsor. I cringe when I think about the untold damage I may have done to them. Damage, not unlike that which was done to me by various sponsors over the years. No Tom....you are wrong. Orange has opened the flood gates of truth. There is no going back to the way things were. Terry has opened the eyes of too many people. People like me, the hopeless AA true-believer. A person who lived each day in a fog created by AA. I was silently suicidal because I felt like a fraud in AA. I was an old-timer who pretended she "got it" ....I saw those around me who seemed to be happy.....little did I know, most of them felt as I did. They, like me were "faking it" til we "made it." Some have left AA since I left, some died, and sadly many are still there, with the plastered on smiles and the fake spirituality that AA pretends to provide. No Tom....Orange has saved lives, in fact he saved mine.

No Tom, the only ANGER I detect is yours. Another angry AAer....defending AA to the death. It takes one to know one.....

Renee.....the one who got away.

Hi again, Renee,

Thanks for the compliments.

Actually, I don't think that Tom is really pro-A.A. I think he just has some anger issues of his own to deal with. Tom reminds me of the great line from Archie Bunker: "I ain't prejudiced. I hate everybody equally, regardless of their race, creed, color, religion, or country of national origin."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties
**      than standing armies."
**         ==  Thomas Jefferson

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Gerald ]

Date: Wed, June 1, 2011 5:29 pm     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: "Gerald S."
Subject: letters #240 and #24-


I think 240 should be written in roman numerals as "CCXL" and 241 as "CCXLI". Can't have same 4 letters in a row. Crazy Romans.

Hi Gerald,

Quite right. Thanks for catching that. I just slipped into the monotony of adding another 'X', and overlooked the fact that it was time to slip an 'L' in there.

Yes, Roman numerals are a real bitch. A friend tells me that the Romans never produced a single mathematics genius. It's easy to see why. Can you imagine trying to do square roots in Roman numerals?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**         A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems.
**          ==  Paul Erdos

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Jennifer ]

Date: Thu, June 2, 2011 2:18 pm     (answered 2 June 2011)
From: "Jennifer"
Subject: Re: abuse in aa

This is a long one so bear with me??

To begin I started going to aa when I was 19. It was 1992. I was convicted of a dui and was sentenced to a treatment center and going to 2 aa meetings a week was in the contract for a deferred prosecution.

I was very naive and innocent although I had been a partier I was sheltered in many ways. I had been through a lot of abuse and trauma so I was a prime candidate for what happened in aa. The women were very mean to me but I just figured that was how women were. I was in extremely good shape I worked out everyday. Let me just put it this way as far as the men go' I felt like a piece of meat literally.

I started going to a Saturday night meeting and had lost my license so I was offered many rides. I finally accepted and I met a man named Paul. I was 19 and he was 42. I thought of him as my father. My father died when I was 4 and it was so nice (or so I thought) to have a man be my friend. He started taking me the meeting every Saturday. After about 8 months or so one night he told me when he was dropping me off that he was in love with me. He was married and I would never (and still don't) date men more than 6 yrs older than me. I was shocked. He was not my type in the least. I didn't know what to do so I told him I wasn't interested. The really sick part is when I told my sponsor she told me that I should have never taken rides from him and what was my part in it? She said because of the way I dressed (I dressed like a normal 19 year old) that I probably tempted him and that I should dress differently. My sponsor was my god. Everything she said I did.

Time went on and I met my sons father. He was 24 and tall and handsome. We started dating. Well before long his sponsor hits on me (he was 34). When I told my son's father he defended him. I ended up getting pregnant. I chose to have the baby by this time I was 21. My son's father was still in aa but wanted nothing to do with my son. After I gave birth I had severe postpartum depression. I had not healed from the birth and my sponsor told me not to take any medication. So I didn't. I still wasn't healing and my family called the Dr. and he actually came to my mother's house after hours to talk to me. He told me if I didn't take any medication I would develop an infection. I also was only sleeping 3 hours or so, every 3 days. My sponsor had said that god would heal me and when god wanted me to sleep I would. My Dr said that sometimes god gives us a parachute and he was my parachute. I took his advice and took a very mild pain medication for 3 days that was all I needed to heal. I also took a mild antidepressant medication to help me sleep ( I was becoming increasingly suicidal from the pain and lack of sleep). I was afraid to tell my sponsor. After about 5 days of sleeping I told her. She fired me on the spot and said she will not sponsor a zombie. I apologized profusely and immediately stopped taking the antidepressant. Within 2 days the insomnia came back and I chose sleep. She fired me and I was lost.

I felt ashamed that my son's father had left me and was starting to question aa. I then slowly started going back. I got a new sponsor and after about 6 months found out that she was best friends with my son's father's new girlfriend. I was appalled she was defending him and telling him what was going on with me. I said it was a conflict of interest and fired her. I was pretty disgusted with aa at this point.

I started drinking (I was 23 at the time). Shortly after I got another dui. You see I believed that I would never be able to responsibly drink. So every time I drank I went on a binge. I once again went to treatment this time inpatient. I went to a 21 day treatment center. There was a guy there who was probably 30 or so. I would sleep all the time and he would come in my room and watch me. I would say hey dude get out of here and his response was something like, "Playing hard to get, I see." This happened 3 or 4 times. Nothing ever happened. Meaning he didn't force himself on me, but its wrong. Later when I went to an outpatient treatment center I found out that he had slept with 4 of the girls that were in treatment with me. I was disgusted.

I ended up going back to aa, even though I told my counselor at the treatment center that I didn't feel comfortable and everything that happened to me. She was a hardcore member and said the old, "What was your part?" The same thing happened all the time. The men were rude and crude to me and my sponsors always said it was my fault. This went on for a couple of years. Once I could drive again, I went to college and started doing well. I left aa and stupidly within a year got in a wreck and got another dui. Every time I drank I got a dui, seriously. Went to another treatment center. At this one my counselor was male. When we would have our 1X1 he would light candles and play funky music and tell me how beautiful I was. I so wish I would have filed complaints about all these men but I was forced to go and was scared because the courts were involved. I would today. But back then I was very vulnerable and quite frankly had no backbone. Because of the dui I was forced to go to aa meetings again. I was drinking on and off and called my sons father (he was trying to get back with me at this time) I would call him drunk and ask if he could help out. This happened 3 or 4 times. I had absolutely no interest in him anymore and he had stayed in the program. He came over on those occasions and had sex with me when I was passed out. He openly admits to doing this and says, "Well you shouldn't have put yourself in that position." No, the truth is the only way you can have sex with me is when I am unconscious. That is rape and what a good program he must have been working. I struggled for years feeling alone. It was around this time that I found aadeprogramming on the internet. It felt so good to finally have a place that stated how I felt for so long.

During those years I had a friend from aa who was my age. Her father was a treatment counselor and when we would go over to his house he would (this man was 60 or so) say to me, please just let me see those breasts. Please let me feel that firm ass. My friend thought it was funny. Come to find out her daughter had been molested by one of the aa creeps she ended up with. Another lost friendship. Oh one of my sponsors made up outrageous lies about me and when it was exposed that she was lying she threatened to commit suicide. Lots of mistrust I have to this day because of what happened in aa. There is much more but that is a good beginning. I am 36 now and really want aa exposed for what happened to me, continues to happen and should be held accountable for. I like to say I never met more rapists or pedophiles until I joined aa. I would feel safer at a bar than an aa meeting any day.

The psychological abuse is a whole other set of horrid experiences. I had sponsors, sponsor me that had no business telling a young woman how to live her life. Once I had a old-timer man convince the group of women at the meeting I went to that I needed a man sponsor. He was so sick he would try and find out about the abuse I went through when I was young. He would tell me hey maybe I will buy you some boobs. He was married and like 65 or something, disgusting. He sponsored me like a week and I got drunk and told him off. Then of course the women blamed me.

I have to say that at this point I have more anger at the women and that they knew what was happening and covered up for the predators. We all know it is still happening. Being told that I was selfish, egocentric, self-centered and used my beauty to get ahead in life. Let me tell you I never felt attractive, I was really submissive, insecure, thought of others first, and always put myself around men and women that put me down because I didn't know anything else. I never had any power unlike the founders of aa. Bill and Dr. Bob were white men that had a lot of power (it was the 30's after all) and lost it because of their drinking. I never had power and then I am told I am powerless. Narcissists is who aa works for. Being told not to feel, and that us alcoholics have no right to feel anger. How misled I was.

When I was 26 I started seeing a therapist after I told her about my experience in aa she said you don't ever have to go back, you don't ever have to be around those kind of people again. She said you get to choose what you want to do with your life. Nobody has the right to tell you how to live it especially when they can't handle their own lives. You have the answers you need. I not only couldn't trust anybody but I also could not trust myself she taught me how to. And it took years of therapy for me to realize that I was smart, attractive, and very giving. This is still a process because of what happened in aa as well as the other abuse I suffered I have ptsd as well as depression. Sometimes I do very well and other times I get very depressed but I have leaned that it will not last forever and I am now starting to treat the self imposed depression as me abusing myself. She taught me that it was up to me to find my answers because her or anybody just cannot possibly have them. That was when I officially left aa. I still would go on and off although I never again felt safe and I'm talking about once every two years.

I haven't been to an aa meeting since 2008. I tried na a year ago and even though the book wasn't as bad the people were pretty much the same. In na though at least in my experience they didn't discount abuse and the women were still catty but they would admit there were predators and to watch out for them. I never understood why in aa the women are so catty and jealous and then I realized that is what aa attracts. Insecure women that try and control somebody else because they have such a mess of a life. I am aware that many of the women are predators themselves. I am so happy I finally took the time to write this and I know more memories will come up as I do this. It's almost as if I blocked out these memories but I needed to get them out.

Also you know what is weird. I feel the abuse I went through before aa I have come to terms with and moved on from. But the aa crap seems to have effected me on a whole other level. Any thoughts of why this is? What I have came to the conclusion is because it is still going on, they say what is your part, and just it seems there is no place to go in aa where you can file a grievance. Wondering what you think?

Thx — Wanting Accountability

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you for a very moving story. I'm sure it was hard to write. I'm glad to hear that you escaped from the madhouse and are free now.

Well, your last question first. Right, there is no place in A.A. to file a grievance. Literally. Nowhere. Remember the first two standard cult characteristics?

Well, according to them, A.A. is always right and you are always wrong, so of course there is no place for you to file a grievance against A.A. or its sponsors. You are not entitled to have a grievance. A.A. is perfect, and if you have a complaint, it's your fault. Find your part in it.

Yes, that is a cult.

The way that so many sponsors tried to take sexual advantage of you is beneath contempt. Good doctors don't screw their patients. Real healers make the welfare of the patient their first concern. But obviously, A.A. sponsors are not real healers.

About the A.A. stuff still working on your head — yes, it takes some time to detox and get all of that garbage out of there. They put so many wrong ideas in your head, hammered in with slogans and years of repetition. And most of it was very negative put-downs, always talking about what is wrong with you and how defective you are. It really does take some time to deprogram. But on the bright side, you are doing it. You are winning. You will get there.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued:

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings of the family that adopted the orphans, the girl on the left, and one of her brothers on the right
What you are seeing in the gosling on the right is his underwater eyelid. Geese have two sets of eyelids. One set, the outer set, is just like ours — thick and opaque. The inner set is thin and translucent, and the geese use those for seeing underwater. The geese have built-in goggles. Some people have remarked that they think the underwater eyelids make the geese look really spooky.

And again, this picture shows us the differences between boys and girls. The girl is very clean and neatly groomed, downright fastidious. The boy looks unkempt, and he needs to take a bath and brush his hair.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#Tom_H2 ]

Date: Fri, June 3, 2011 10:47 pm     (answered 6 June 2011)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Dear Renee

Dear Renee,

This is the Tom you are referring to in your recent letter to Orange. You are mistaken if you think I am a secret AA stepper. My goal is to help as many projects to catagorically shut down the fellowship of A.A.

I think A.A. is quite dangerous and adds to the suffering to the desperate alcoholic. The early stage alcoholic is being hurt the most in my opinion at these crazy, dominated, narrow minded, meetings which lenghten the suffering alcoholics journey to sobreity, This concerns a medical and not a spirital remedy concerning alcoholic addiction. recovery.

And yes, I am angry at Terry for his lack of a feel good public relations approach to this site. I would like to see him receive at least a few thousand dollars per month for his time and effort and expenses via paypal. This site costs money to operate and the last I heard Terry was not driving a Mercedes Benz.

But everyone is spooked by his writing style, But it is his site, And I back him 100% and even got a good laugh at being catagorized with Archie Bunker, *L*

Thanks for sticking up for Terry.

Hello again, Tom,

Personally, I don't think my writing style is "spooking" my audience. Now I know that there are other, more official, writing styles. If I were writing for a medical journal, I would have to leave out all emotion or personal comments, and just report the dry facts. But that style of writing is generally pretty boring and loses more audience than it attracts. I'm more comfortable with a conversational writing style. If the audience can't handle it, oh well, so it goes.

As far as the Mercedes is concerned, coincidentally, I just bought a used bicycle two days ago. For the last 20 years, I've just been on foot. But I finally bit the bullet and got some wheels — an old, slightly-rusty, 18-speed bike. So I've been riding it for two days, and I ache a little here and there, but I'll get back in shape and loosened up soon. It sure does speed up the trek to the wetlands.

You know, if you and Renee move the debate to the letters section of the forum, then you can debate without me getting in the middle. I'll create a starting point for you, here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Better to write for yourself and have no public,
**     than to write for the public and have no self.
**       ==  Cyril Connolly

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html#John_McC ]

Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 12:23 am     (answered 6 June 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: John McC. shared a link on your Wall.

Secular Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Toronto Have Been Kicked Out of AA


Alcoholics Anonymous is a religious organization. We've known that for a long time. These are the infamous "Twelve Steps" (PDF) you must overcome to cure yourself of alcoholism, according to AA (emphases theirs): We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.

Date: Sat, June 4, 2011 11:22 pm     (answered 7 June 2011)
From: "Doug"
Subject: Toronto story


Just something you might find of interest...


Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 6:32 am
From: "John M."
Subject: Atheists kicked out of AA
To: [email protected],[email protected]


Hi John and Doug and John,

Thanks for the tips. That is quite outrageous. The organization that vehemently insists that it is not a religion excommunicates people for failing to parrot the holy scriptures to the satisfaction of the high priests.

So much for Tradition 3, which says that the only requirement for membership in A.A. is a desire to quit drinking.

And so much for the claim that the 12 Steps are only "suggested" as a program of recovery. Obviously, if you fail to reprint the "suggestions" correctly, they kick you out. If you have your own suggestions, they kick you out.

Some of the comments are outrageous as well. This is my favorite excuse for the A.A. policy:

It is not OK for atheist groups to hijack religious groups. Even if it is easier. We cannot be lazy.

Hmmm... The "spiritual, not religious" organization called Alcoholics Anonymous is suddenly a religious group that is being "hijacked" by atheists? Very strange.

Then there is this contradictory rationalization:

Let me make a couple of points to add to this discussion. For one thing, AA is not an organization. It is a loose fellowship of groups. There is no top down authoritarianism. This is both a strength and a weakness, a weakness in that is extremely difficult to change the AA culture — which very much needs changing.

Oh yeh, right. Alcoholics Anonymous is not an organization. There is no such thing as Alcoholics Anonmymous World Services, Incorporated, or The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous. And A.A. President Greg Muth did not sign papers authorizing the A.A. organization to sue A.A. members in Mexico and Germany for reprinting old out-of-copyright versions of the Big Book. No authoritarianism. Right. Tell that to the people who got sued.

How can an anonymous organization be a religion; you people have become as ridiculous as some of the fundys down south.

Well, these "anonymous" saints of the A.A. religion are pretty well known: William Griffith Wilson, Doctor Robert Holbrook Smith, Dr. William D. Silkworth, Clarence Snyder, Jim Burwell, Dr. Harry Tiebout, Mrs. Marty Mann, Henrietta Seiberling, Rev. Samuel Shoemaker Jr. and Father Edward Dowling, S.J.

Alcoholics Anonymous can be a religion just like how the church of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young has become a religion. Both have their holy founders, and a new holy book, and claim to have a new message from God. And they both have their dogma that you must believe and parrot correctly, or else you get excommunicated.

The second article has one glaring error:

In 1961, Wilson, whose early thinking on AA was influenced by the British evangelical Oxford Group, ...

Dr. Frank Buchman and his "First Century Christian Fellowship" and "Oxford Group" were as American as Princeton and Yale. And Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder were not just "influenced" by the Oxford Group, they were true-believer members of it for years, and they took it and made it into the Alcoholics Anonymous religion.

I also linked to this story over in the forum, here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Every identity has its fundamentalists — the gatekeepers
**     of what is and isn't permissible for those who share that
**     identity.  Since we all have access to multiple identities —
**     race, religion, nationality, ethnicity, class — these
**     fundamentalists usually have their work cut out trying to
**     keep everybody in line.  As the guardians of authenticity,
**     their job is to deny complexity and impose uniformity."
**     == Gary Younge, "To Fight These Reactionaries We Must Tackle
**     the Crisis That They Feed Off", in The Guardian/UK, August 21, 2006
**     http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0821-22.htm
**     http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329557728-103677,00.html

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Last updated 7 August 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters241.html