Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLV

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#NoName ]

Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 1:01 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "NoName"
Subject: My experience with AA


I just wanted to add my experience with AA. I started attending when I was just 16 years old. I had a lot of personal problems and hung around a bad crowd. I was doing drugs and drinking, I overdosed once on drugs and was in the hospital with alcohol poisoning at a young age. I was arrested numerous times due to my drinking, etc. You know the story. Anyway, after a 30 day court ordered treatment program, I began going to AA.

As soon as I began going, I was approached by numerous older men. I was very promiscuous at a young age due in part to abuse from my childhood. To make a long story short, I took these men up on their offers. I'm lucky I didn't catch any sort of disease. I left home at 17 to move in with one of them — a 50 year old man. He was a fairly popular AA guy and I looked up to him. He had turned his life around, quit drinking and seemed to "talk the talk". I was young, naive and desperately searching for a savior.

Shortly after I moved in with him, this man became verbally and physically abusive to me. The police were called by a neighbor who overheard my cries. Shortly there after, I became pregnant. At first, I planned on keeping the baby but partly due to family pressure and because of my own fears, I terminated the pregnancy. I've dealt with a lot of shame and guilt over this choice, but I never regret it.

Anyway, shortly before I turned 18, I started escorting — all the while attending AA meetings and financially supporting myself and my 51 year old boyfriend. It came to a point where I had enough of providing for the both of us and I kicked him out although continued to help him financially. Finally, at 18, I broke off all contact with this man. He had long since stopped going to AA. I stopped for a while too, but continued over the next few years. I was sober the entire time but living a life of shame, denial and abuse. There wasn't one meeting I went to where a man didn't try to hit on me afterwards. It got to the point where I put up a very hard front, giving dirty looks to any of the halfway house creeps who sat around the table staring at the women there.

I met many many people who seemed to be in desperate need of therapy and medical intervention. People who wouldn't take medication because they thought it would ruin their sobriety. Backstabbers who would smile at your face and then dish out the latest gossip once you left — I was guilty of that, too. So called "friends" who want nothing to do with you if you ever leave the program. I had a friend who dated a man from the program and he nearly killed her. She had to sit next to him once at a meeting afterwards. Nobody knew the "real" him because of the manipulation and persona he created. There are so many AA personas there that aren't real but made up to impress the others. And yes, I've also witnessed business owners recruiting newly sober people to work for them.

I don't really know where I'm going with this. The 51 year old man I moved in with died a few years later. He was found unconscious in a park; drinking again, he finally died from esophageal cancer. I was relieved I wouldn't see him anymore, to be honest. He told many people in AA about the abortion and attempted to further tarnish my reputation. I found a home group and made a lot of friends, nice genuine people. By the time I was 20, I was still going to AA and instead of falling for people's lies and abuse, I watched it happen around me. One young girl hung herself. She had been going to AA regularly and I remember her calling me for a ride to a meeting but I was unable to, I had to work. Not long after she committed suicide and I don't know what was going on in her life although I'm sure she dealt with her share of sexual propositions, too. Another guy hung himself a few years later. I just wish someone in AA or in their family could have helped them. So many times I went to AA depressed and broken and the meetings did nothing for me, the people ignored me and didn't seem to care... it was a lot of "politics" and fitting in with the long timers crowd.

I found a nice man a year or so ago and we became engaged. He has never been to AA and is a social drinker. My sponsor didn't think I was ready for a relationship even though I had been sober for 5 years, earning my university degree, working, etc. She stopped phoning me, we grew apart. I decided to have a drink one day over the holidays. Lo and behold, I stopped at one drink. I was an irresponsible, reckless teenager suffering from unresolved personal problems... I'm now a smart, competent, responsible woman. I've gone to therapy to resolve my personal issues. I find no problem with drinking occasionally and although I realize it's not the healthiest choice of refreshment, I can have just one and I have never been "drunk" since I quit drinking at 17. AA surrounded me with some great people but at an impressionable age, I was taken advantage of and used. I'm grateful for AA teaching me how to live sober but I really wish I had never fallen for so many lies.

So that's my story... thanks for your website. :) Please don't publish my name or e-mail.

Hello NoName,

Thank you for the horror story. I'm glad to hear that you have gotten your life together and are doing well. I'm adding this story to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

Honestly, I seriously doubt that A.A. taught you how to live sober. I'm sure that some good people encouraged you to stay sober, but you did the learning and the work and the staying sober. And you survived what A.A. did to you. It sounds like A.A. hurt you more than helped you.

Oh well, have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Underage binge drinking occurs more frequently if child
**     maltreatment such as neglect, physical and sexual abuse
**     is experienced, U.S. researchers said.
**        ==  UPI, March 4, 2009

[The previous letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Randaron ]

Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 6:35 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: All psychiatric evaluations since before 1935 results could not get in alcoholics sober

It is plain to see that you are dead set against Alcoholics Anonymous, And anyone who might believe that it works. So it would certainly stand reason that Anybody with resentment too the tune of yours Should reevaluate his entire position in life. People Usually have researched information as to their choices I went to many a psychologist and psychiatrist and in the end I would have pulled the trigger rather than get sober 20 years ago when I stopped drinking. It was not Alcoholics Anonymous nor the people in it that got me sober. Nor was it by choice no one on this planet no one in the psychological field not even Dr carl jung can induce a spiritual experience into another human being. most psychologists will blindly follow the Ravings of a madman called Sigmund Freud it would also seem that drug addict cannot fix a normal human being simply by giving them more drugs and yes I do understand that some people have a chemical imbalance not all people psychiatrist in self is one that is exempt to any mental issues according to you and your kind. at no time in my life have I never seen a psychologist work in anybody's life. but I have seen people that psychologists destroyed I also know how many that committed suicide after visiting the psychologist many people because there only interest is money

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Hello again, Randy,

Your subject line doesn't make much sense. If you are trying to say that psychiatrists could not sober up alcoholics before 1935, that is wrong. That is just A.A. propaganda, just some more of Bill's Bull, where Bill Wilson falsely claimed that A.A. was better at sobering up alcoholics than the organizations that came before it. Wrong.

Bill Wilson also declared that A.A. was better at sobering up alcoholics than "doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists". That is also wrong, just an outright lie.

Bill and A.A. experienced massive failure to sober up alcoholics, and Bill lied and said that A.A. worked great. Bill even claimed that A.A. was "the miracle of the century", and "probably one of the greatest medical and spiritual developments of all time."

But occasionally, when it suited him, he told the opposite story and revealed the truth, like when he was bragging at Dr. Bob's memorial service about how hard he and Dr. Bob had to work to establish A.A.:

You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait.
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

The truth is that the recovery rate from alcohol abuse has been relatively steady for a couple of centuries. A.A. has made no improvement whatsover. Perhaps you have heard of the Washingtonian Society, whom President Lincoln praised for their good work in sobering up alcoholics? And there were plenty more: The Keeley League, The Women's Christian Temperance Union, Keswick, The Emanuel Society, The Salvation Army, and more. You can read about them here:

You started off the body of your letter with the logical fallacy of assuming that I am wrong because I am against Alcoholics Anonymous. That is standard cult fare, "You are automatically wrong because you disagree with the Guru and his teachings."

The rest of your jabber about psychiatrists doesn't make much sense.
You imagine that all followers of Sigmund Freud are crazy?
Psychiatrists never help anybody?
People just commit suicide after seeing a psychiatrist?
Psychiatrists are only in it for the money?

Those sure are some sweeping generalizations. And all untrue.

Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 6:38 pm       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: And by the way

One person might not be able to set stand for a per-capita but one man's article is not the opinion of a half the world one man's article is only his opinion of what his observance is anybody can muck the numbers and I'll bet you're 100 percent successful at it every thing you do but yet will you ever admit to harming another human being with her mental exploits

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Randy, that doesn't make much sense either. Apparently, you are trying to dismiss facts that you don't like by using the Escape via Relativism propaganda trick: "It's just one man's opinion."

Date: Thu, May 23, 2013 1:56 am       (answered 27 May 2013)
From: "Randaron"
Subject: How much do you charge to get people sober

What is your success rate how many people at the end of their lives left your name on there tombstone. why was the book Alcoholics Anonymous said to be one of the 80 books changed human history the bending twisting of thought it's not for an alchemist many of the people in your peoples profession think they can bend and twist thoughts in order to repair a simple lie when the lie most people tell themselves long before they get to a psychiatrist. if in fact people come to you wanted to get better then why would they need your help so either or you're saying that a person that wants to stop drinking can without AA and a person that wants to think properly can do so without the help of a psychiatrist

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Randy, I do not charge people money. And I do not ask that people put my name on their tombstone. I don't even ask that they die.

The fact that the A.A. Big Book has influenced the failing "recovery industry" is not a good thing. It's just like how TIME magazine grouped Bill Wilson in with Adolf Hitler as two of the 100 most influential men of the 20th century. Yes, they were influential. But not for the good.

You are rambling. What "lie they tell themselves before they get to the psychiatrist" are you talking about?

This is illogical:

"if in fact people come to you wanted to get better then why would they need your help so either or you're saying that a person that wants to stop drinking can without AA and a person that wants to think properly can do so without the help of a psychiatrist"

I am not running a rehab center, so no, people do not come to me for a treatment program, "to get better." I am just telling the truth about a big mess.

Yes, people can and do quit drinking without A.A. The vast majority of success stories do it without A.A.

Whether someone needs to see a psychiatrist depends on the individual person. You can't generalize something like that.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.

[The next letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Craig_J ]

Date: Mon, May 27, 2013 8:43 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Craig J"

Why spend so much time slamming A.A. imagine you really would have something to whine about if 2 million of us collectively returned to drinking, ....driving, doing crime, taking up state and federal resources because we could not take care of normal things. Try reading all the text...with an open mind. The reality is that the world is a better place because of us. What do you bring to the table? Are you just taking up space...always looking for differences...a waste of skin? I used to be. So, what see you gonna do?

Hello Craig,

I did read the Big Book with an open mind, and I also went to A.A. and N.A. meetings with an open mind, really looking for something that would help me to quit drinking and stay sober, and I learned that A.A. was a load of bullshit, just another harmful cult religion. There is a huge difference between having an open mind and being gullible.

No way will 2 million of you collectively return to drinking, because there are not 2 million sober A.A. members in the whole world. The majority of A.A. members are already drinking — actually, never quit — and they will drop out of A.A. soon, and they will be replaced with more coerced people from the courts and treatment centers who will also never quit drinking and soon drop out.

And no, the world is not a better place because of A.A. Read the list of A.A. Horror Stories to see what A.A. is really doing to people.

I do offer better alternatives to A.A. Read this: How did you get to where you are?

Lastly, the slogan about not looking for the differences is just another standard cult characteristic — "Stop Thinking" — don't see the contradictions. No thanks, I'll keep my thinking mind anyway.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Keeping an open mind is a virtue,
**     but not so open that your brains fall out.
**       ==  James Oberg

[The next letter from Craig_J is here.]

May 19, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Unknown bird
A birdwatcher told me what her name was, and I promptly forgot it.

Canada Goose goslings
A gosling

Canada Goose goslings
Two goslings eating whole wheat bread

Canada Goose goslings
A mother and two of her babies, eating whole wheat bread

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Jeff_F is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Jeff_F ]

Date: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:14 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Jeff F."
Subject: Attachment

I did have this PDF attached. Hope it gets through this time. It is a narrative that I wrote for an attorney interview, so he could better understand what these folks put me through. My counselor, Liz (Nurse Ratched) Beach represented herself as an LADC but the NH licensing agency tells me, that although she has a partial application in, she is not, nor has she ever been licensed in NH. She used her power to intimidate, abuse and ultimately hold me against my will in that 12 step holy house of horrors. I am counting down the days until I can depose that bitch. She has no idea the shit storm that is headed her way.

Thought you might enjoy the story.

Jeff in NH
Size: 18 k
Type: application/pdf

Date: Sun, May 26, 2013 10:38 am       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Jeff F."
Subject: Rehab

They spent 52 days trying to unsuccessfully trying to convince me that there is a god. The fact that my counselor turns out to have misrepresented her professional credentials, suggests that perhaps there is, after all.

Your web site has been very helpful, especially in tracking down case law.


Hello again, Jeff,

Yes, got the story this time. Thank you. That is quite a tale, and it sounds like you have a very good case. An unlicensed "LADC" foisting her favorite religion on people and further imprisoning them when they won't convert to her beliefs? Outrageous. And snitching you out to your parole officer for not sharing her religious beliefs is also defamation of character and slander, as well as false imprisonment.

Also, it seems like your parole officer is guilty of incompetence as well as false imprisonment and coercing you into a cult religion. He sentenced you to more imprisonment without even checking the credentials of the so-called "LADC" who was demanding that you be imprisoned longer, so that you would "get" her religion. Since when is it okay to sentence someone to more imprisonment on the say-so of a stranger who has no credentials and who is guilty of misrepresenting her qualifications?

The case of Inouye v. Kemna established that the INDIVIDUAL officials who coerce religion can be sued, not just their department. That means that the individual civil servants have to pay for their own lawyers, and pay the damages themselves. It's a very different thing from the state department being sued, and a state-paid lawyer handling the defense, and the state's insurance company paying the damages. The individual coercing bureaucrat is on the hook for everything.
For more details, look here and here.
And here: the Inouye v. Kemna case.
And here: the Inouye v. Kemna case.
And here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6773570865128492755&q;=504+F.3d+705&hl;=en&as;_sdt=2,6

Now that case occurred in a different Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, but it established a precedent.

Yes, please keep me informed about how this case is progressing. You know, this is all it takes to destroy the 12-Step empire. If enough people sue and win, the treatment centers will drop the coerced 12-Step religion faster than a hot potato. After all, they are only in it for the money.

Courts and parole officers will also drop their demands that people attend A.A. meetings when they find out how much it can cost them.

Then A.A. will shrivel up to nothing because coercive recruiting is the only thing that is keeping it going.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.
**       == Leonardo daVinci

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Steve_H ]

Date: Sat, May 25, 2013 6:10 pm       (answered 29 May 2013)
From: "Steven Hassan"
Subject: Latest list of media interviews of Steve Hassan re: Marathon Bombers and radicalization

NPR- Here and Now Sacha Pfeiffer filling in for Robin Young 4/26/13

PBS TV WGBH Greater Boston with Emily Rooney

CNN Erin Burnett OutFront Link 4/23/13k:

CNN Erin Burnett OutFront Link 4/24/13:

Wall Street Journal Live

NECN interview 4/25/13

FOX 25 Morning Segment link:

Radio interview with Lisa Evers 4/28/13

Ted Corless Radio 4/28/13

My latest book, Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults and Beliefs is available on Amazon.com and other online booksellers as paperback and e-book

Steven Alan Hassan M.Ed. LMHC, NCC
Freedom of Mind Resource Center Inc.
716 Beacon St. #590443
Newton MA. 02459


Twitter: http://twitter.com/cultexpert

Facebook: http://freedomofmind.com/facebook

Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenhassan

"I know but one freedom & that is the freedom of the mind" Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Hello again, Steve,

Okay, I'll post this and let people know.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within
**     the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person
**     distrust his own self.
**    ==  Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.
**    And that describes Alcoholics Anonymous exactly.

May 19, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7

Canada Goose goslings
Two Goslings eating rolled oats

Cackling Geese
Cackling Geese
There are still some of these guys hanging out here. They don't seem to be eager to fly back to Alaska just yet.

Cackling Geese
Cackling Geese

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Keith_G ]

Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 6:39 am       (answered 1 June 2013)
From: "Keith G"
Subject: Wow

What a waste of energy. Your blasting of AA is not unique I have seen many take irrational and hateful stands and paint a picture that wasn't based on facts but appeared more to be a large emotionally charged rant.

I could point by point destroy your entire stance. But I won't waste my time. You seem to be convinced your are absolutely correct and there is no chance that there is any openness to another point of view.

I have never in 20 years had ANYONE try to convince me to join a religious body or tell me what "God" is. AA really has no desire to have anyone become a member that doesn't want to be. It is NOT promoted. Bill Wilson made clear he didn't have all the answers and that AA was not for everyone. He states "We only know a little" The whole of AA is an offer not a demand.

As to accusation that it is a "haven" for freaks AA is not perfect, there are a few (a very few) loose cannons that do not follow through with the steps. There are humans in AA as anywhere else. Look around you'll find them everywhere. Sick behaviors are not unique to AA.

I used to attend meetings with a certain antipathy, I enjoyed the company and discussions but did not care for the use of the word God. I was finally beaten up enough to lay my guns down and quit fighting the God word as alcohol beat me down badly once again. No one told me I had to believe in a certain way. I know letting go of old concepts of how the world ought to be and how others ought to treat me and following the directions in AA saved my life. I am not Christian nor do I practice any organized religion. HOWEVER something shifted in me that I cannot account for. God? Physic change? who knows but I know for a fact it wasn't I that did it on my intellect

Keith G.

Hello Keith,

Well, you started off with the standard A.A. ad hominem attack — attack the messenger, rather than the message. You offer no facts to support your attack, rather you claim that you can't be bothered with refuting my information.

If you really can refute my statements point by point, please do. Let's get the truth out on the table for all to see. Find something that I said that you don't like, and prove it false. Of course, your supporting evidence and information must be better than mine.

  1. Your claim that no one tried to convert you to their religion does not invalidate all of the horror stories that I have received where sponsors did just that to their sponsees.

  2. You wrote:
    AA really has no desire to have anyone become a member that doesn't want to be.

    Baloney. See the official A.A. document about "cooperating" with the courts in getting more people sentenced to A.A.:

    Almost two-thirds of the new A.A. members are forced, sentenced, pressured, cajoled, or blackmailed into attending A.A. meetings. Look here: The previous two A.A. triennial surveys have revealed how many unwilling victims were coerced into A.A.

  3. It is NOT promoted.


  4. Bill Wilson made clear he didn't have all the answers and that AA was not for everyone. He states "We only know a little" The whole of AA is an offer not a demand.

    Also untrue. Bill Wilson talked out of both sides of his mouth on many issues, including that one. He also declared that A.A. was the only way, and that A.A. knew more than doctors or psychiatrists or ministers or priests. Then it turned into "Work the Steps or Die!"

    First, in order to sound reasonable to prospects, Bill wrote:

    Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, A Vision For You, page 164.

    Perhaps you are not quite in sympathy with the approach we suggest. By no means do we offer it as the last word on this subject...
    The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, page 144.

    It would be a product of false pride to claim that A.A. is a cure-all, even for alcoholism.
    As Bill Sees It, quotes from William G. Wilson, published by A.A.W.S., page 285.

    But then Bill wrote:

    Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 35.

    For most cases, there is virtually no other solution.
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 43.

    ... you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.     ...
    At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life — or else.
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 44.

    "Or else", indeed.

    And Bill Wilson put this self-congratulatory lunatic babbling in the Big Book:

    Here was a book that said that I could do something that all these doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists that I'd been going to for years couldn't do!
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 473.

    Finally, Bill Wilson wrote that you must do all of Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps all of the time, or else you are "signing your own death warrant".

    Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

    There is much more of that listed under this bait-and-switch trick: First, Bill Wilson declared that Alcoholics Anonymous was only one of many ways to achieve sobriety, then he declared that it was The Only Way.

  5. About A.A. being "a haven for freaks", actually, I never said that. You did. What I said was that there are a lot of mentally-ill people who should be seeing a psychiatrist, and there are a lot of criminals whom the judge or parole officer sentenced to A.A. meetings. And there are sexual predators who like the supply of fresh meat that A.A. meetings provide. And there are narcissistic people who like lording it over the new sponsees. And there are the con artists who find cloudy-headed newly-detoxed people to be easy victims.

  6. Then you repeated the standard A.A. slogan about "letting go of old concepts of how the world ought to be..." What old concepts? Like the concepts that people should not lie or steal or rape or kill or exploit others? Those old concepts? Are you getting rid of them?

    So what old concepts are you getting rid of? Please be very specific.

  7. Lastly, "what shifted in you" was your mind. The A.A. brainwashing took effect after a while, and you started repeating the A.A. slogans in an unthinking manner.

Now if you really believe that A.A. works, please tell us what the A.A. success rate really is. You say you have 20 years in A.A., so you should certainly know the answers to these questions:

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Time's glory is to calm contending kings,
**     To unmask falsehood, and bring truth to light.
**       ==  William Shakespeare  (1564—1616), The Rape of Lucrece, Line 939

[The next letter from Keith_G is here.]

May 27, 2013, Monday, Memorial Day: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
3 of the Family of 4, eating bread.
One of the goslings wasn't missing. (You can see the tip of the tail of the 4th one on the left edge of the picture.) I just had a telephoto lens on the camera, which had such a narrow field of vision that I couldn't get all four babies in the picture at the same time.

Canada Goose goslings
2 of the Family of 4, wanting more bread.

Canada Goose goslings
3 of the Family of 4.

Canada Goose goslings
The almost-black mongrel duck. He is also one of my regulars. He comes running for munchies when he sees me.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Monica_R ]

Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 10:09 am       (answered 2 June 2013)
From: "Monica R."
Subject: Reviewing AA on Yelp


please review AA on yelp if you want and lets get the word out!


Ah, what a good idea. And if I'm not mistaken, that is near the headquarters of Clancy Imusland, the new A.A. cult leader.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Alcohol Abuse doesn't need people like you besmirching its reputation."
**       ==  Randy Rhodes, spoofing a Congressman who went after young boys
**           and then blamed it on alcohol — a comedy routine on the
**           Randy Rhodes Show.

[The previous letter from Randaron is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Randaron2 ]

From: "Randaron"
Subject: Re: All psychiatric evaluations since before 1935 results could not get in alcoholics sober
Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 5:53 pm       (answered 3 June 2013)

As I. All I am doing is blowing out of proportion the statements other people make. And of course much of it sounds irrational. in regards to the psychological field they do much good work even though it stems from a philosophical Group in France much like the Washingtonians back in 1867, so there for the psychological field is relatively new in itself, and in itself it cannot claim perfection, neither can AA I personally do not recruit anybody I am not your idea of standard AA. When I do talk to them I asked them if they go to a psychologist or psychiatrist if in fact they are on medication I tell them absolutely nothing about it For it is not my field Nor is it my privilege I am NOT a doctor nor do I intend to become one I will not become a drug & alcohol counselor because I'm not qualified for it just because I used drugs and drank a lot. I am not married nor am i a sexual predator on the new comer. I personally don't believe in that. I do not force my beliefs down anybody's throat nor do I sway them in any of theirs it is not my perogative, I also know that alcohol in itself is not addictive if it were the entire world would be addicted to it since it has been around for 10 thousand years give or take. it really doesn't matter to me about anybody else's money and yes I did babel quite a bit about a variety of things. nobody on this world is perfect in any way shape or form and if perfection of any kind did walk the face of this world. the remainder of the human race would certainly destroy it, we've come a long way in a couple hundred thousand years and just think no matter how we twist in bend our Minds with whatever drugs, drink oxygen as we know it is the greatest mind altering drug there is. In the absolute and none of it really going to matter anyway so enjoy destroy it all who cares

Sent from my Motorola Smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

Hello again, Randaron,

I'm glad to hear that you don't practice sexual exploitation of newcomers and that you don't try to act as a doctor. Thank you.

Actually, alcohol is very addictive, but you have to drink a lot of it to get addicted. That's why most people are not addicted to alcohol in spite of drinking alcohol during every football game. But once addicted, quitting alcohol cold turkey can be fatal. Hard-core, badly-addicted alcoholics who stop drinking alcohol suddenly can go into shock, they can go into convulsions, their hearts can stop, and they can die.

A fellow who worked in a detox center told me that they put the junkies and cocaine addicts through cold turkey withdrawal and get them off of the stuff fast, but that you cannot do that with alcoholics. They can die from that. "They will go into shock, their hearts will stop, and they will die on you. You actually have to give them alcohol in the hospital and wean them off of it slowly. Sometimes it takes months."

About this statement:

In the absolute and none of it really going to matter anyway so enjoy destroy it all who cares

Well I care. I know that Buddhists and Hindus say that on the highest level of reality there is only the pure Void, crystaline undisturbed Consciousness, so nothing can really be destroyed, and there is nothing to get uptight about, but down here on this level we are supposed to work to make things better. Down here on this level we are supposed to care.

Baba Ram Dass made the statement in his book about "How Can I Be Of Service" that you cannot give it all up until you have it all together.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     During the height of the Cold War, the spiritual teacher
**     Ram Dass was asked whether the world was facing a nuclear
**     Armageddon or, as some were prophesying, a "new age"
**     of peace and love and deeper awareness.
**     Ram Dass said,
**     "I used to think I should have an opinion on this. But
**     as I examined it, I saw that if it's going to be Armegeddon
**     and we're going to die, the best thing to do to prepare for
**     it is to quiet my mind, open my heart, and deal with the
**     suffering in front of me. And if it's going to be the new age,
**     the best thing to do is quiet my mind, open my heart, and
**     deal with the suffering in front of me."
**     Is the moral calculus any different today?
**       ==  From Sy's notebook, 'The Sun' magazine, October 2009

[The next letter from Randaron is here.]

[The previous letter from Craig_J is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters355.html#Craig_J2 ]

From: "Craig J"
Subject: Re:
Date: Wed, May 29, 2013 9:06 pm       (answered 3 June 2013)


again, just more negative, diluted, self-serving b.s. what really amazes me is how angry and cynical those are (like yourself) that come to A.A. looking for help, do not truly try to change, and poke holes in everything suggested. How you can spin even the simplest philosophy like, "look for similarities and not the differences" and turn it into an ugly thing. Stop thinking? really? if you spent the energy you do on positive helpful things instead of trying desperately to deface a movement that helps people, you might actually be of some importance. I bet you find the bad in everything and call it thinking and insightful. Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean every single person in AA is bad and that the entire entity is a cult.

Hello again, Craig,

The fact remains that A.A. does not work. It harms more people than it helps.

And my message is not negative. I say that people can save themselves and improve their own lives and be happy by using their own intelligence and will power.

The slogan "look for similarities and not the differences" is still an appeal to stop thinking critically and not see that the A.A. dogma has huge problems, and it is illogical and fatally flawed.

you are fucking unbelievable, i just read that ridiculous and dangerous "program you outline for a sober life/recovery. You remind me of that douche bag that wrote a million little pieces. you shamelessly just take what AA has already outlined as a part of the recovery process and make it your own, while in the previous breath you slam bill wilson for being a liar and plagiarizing others....geez dude.

What are you talking about? "What A.A. has already outlined"? Please be specific.

And no, there is little similarity between what I advise, and what A.A. teaches. About the only similarity is that we all advise people not to drink alcohol.

  1. I don't teach people that they are powerless over alcohol. I tell people that they are powerful and can get a grip and take charge of their lives.
  2. I don't tell people that they are insane, but Bill Wilson's "Higher Power" will restore them to sanity.
  3. I don't tell people that their will power is worthless. I tell people to build up their will power.
  4. I don't tell people to stop thinking and just believe. I tell people to think very carefully, and critically, and don't believe anything that Bill Wilson wrote.
  5. I don't tell people that they have to waste their time and mess up their minds by listing and confessing all of their sins, "moral shortcomings", wrongs, and "defects of character".
  6. I don't teach people that sin is the cause of all of their problems and that confession is the cure for sin.
  7. I don't tell people that they must find God or else.
  8. I don't tell people that they must beg God to "remove their defects". I tell people to fix themselves, and to get a doctor's help if they need it.
  9. I don't tell people to conduct a séance and channel God or some spirits and get secret messages and work orders and the power to carry them out.
  10. I don't tell people that Bill Wilson was carrying a message from God.
  11. I don't tell people that they must go to meetings all of the time.
  12. I don't tell people that they should get a sponsor.
  13. I don't tell people that they must get rid of ego.
  14. I don't tell people that they must go recruiting if they wish to stay sober.
  15. I don't tell people that they cannot ever leave my organization or else they will die drunk in a gutter.
  16. I don't tell people that they cannot ever graduate from "the program".
  17. I don't tell people that they cannot ever recover and be normal.
  18. I don't teach an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties.
  19. I don't teach irrational illogical magical thinking, like that ghosts or spirits or gods will grant your wishes if you pray and beg hard enough.
  20. I don't yammer 900 slogans at newcomers.
  21. I don't tell people that the 12 Steps are "principles" for recovery that Bill Wilson got from God. I tell people that the 12 Steps are Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion recruiting and conversion practices that Bill Wilson copied from the Oxford Group.
  22. A.A. has not "outlined a recovery process". Practicing Bill Wilson's chosen cult religion does not work as a cure for alcohol abuse.
  23. I am not "plagiarizing" the lunatic scribblings of Bill Wilson. Why would I want to copy the ravings of a seriously mentally-ill man?

Well, I obviously am no pillar of stability as I am considering fronting you off for what you really are....a sad, lonely, lost, pathetic and angry little man that didnt have the balls to man up when YOU failed...you dump it in AA's lap, then go on to outline how rad you are. I wish you get everything you want in this life bro, sincerely. But dont drag people into your cynical and hypocritical bullshit. It isn't cute, impressive, or attractive. Bitching and whining about AA, trying to come across as way more intellegent and insightful than you really are just isnt working. You are so obvious and predictable. I

I have not failed. I now have 12 years off of alcohol, tobacco and drugs, and without any A.A. theology or the 12 Steps or A.A. meetings or believing in Bill Wilson's tyrannical "Higher Power".

Typical of a dry drunk.

"Dry drunk"? Now that accusation is typical of a well-indoctrinated A.A. cult member. Any sober person who criticizes A.A. is supposedly a "dry drunk". Don't bother yourself with discussing the real facts, like what is the actual A.A. cure rate, just attack critics with slurs like "dry drunk".

I hope you make it back here. you obviously have some pretty cool energy levels that could really help people. If you "program works so well....spend more time talking about it, less time talking shit on others....

No, I'm not going back to A.A. I wouldn't go back there, even if I were to start drinking again, which I don't think I will do. Been there, done that. I'm doing other things with my life now.

cya, wouldnt wanna be ya.....

Oh really? You wouldn't want to have 12 years of sobriety and enjoy playing in the sunshine and feeding the cute little fluff-ball goslings? Does that sound like Hell to you? How many years of sobriety do you have, anyway?

Now I know that pulling rank like that is a low, vile A.A. trick, but I'm going to throw it back at you and ask, honestly, how many years of sobriety do you have and how well is your program working? And where is that "serenity" that A.A. members love to talk about? And why don't you do something about that resentment?

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "People say I give 'em hell. I don't give 'em hell.
**      I just tell the truth on them and they think it is hell."
**        ==  Harry Truman

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