Letters, We Get Mail, XXII

Date Thu, September 2, 2004 12:38 pm
Subject hello

thanks for your orange papers; particularly about the bill w. womanizing bit.

I have long grappled with the hypocrisy (sp) of many aa members for so many years... and mostly as a mental anguish-type thing... (I'm a 38 yr. old female with 17 years) until finally some nice (male) old-timer (here in nyc) told me he'd heard some of the california gossip I'd witnessed and that people were just human, etc. although he very much sympathized with me... aa is filled with all kinds of people whose behavior can be quite human and, of course, disgusting.

I will be sure to emphasize this to my sponsees (who are little angels and can be quite dissappointed by human frailty as I can be) and refer them to your pages if they don't believe me... it's a valuable lesson (to me) to learn to accept people as they are, and your bravery in putting up your website is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.


Hi Regina,

Thanks for the letter. Your letter provides a nice counter-point to the many complaints that I've gotten lately, accusing me of killing people by telling the truth.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Sun, September 5, 2004 9:12 pm
Subject Something strange that happened to me!

I am about to share something with you that I am often embarrassed to tell. On the few occassions I have told someone I either get ridicule or the person roles her eyes. Whem my mom was attending the twelve step group, she would work these techniques on me when I would see her at home. I was 27 at the time. One time, she pointed and said "You can't relate to others!" For months afterwards, I would hear those words repeat in my right ear. (Please, don't make fun of me?) I know this sounds crazy, but it's what I experienced. After that, I would start having panic attacks, even to this day.

Sincerely, Andrew.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm not laughing.

I want to thank you for opening up another can of worms that nobody talks about — the bad effects that cults have on the other family members who don't even join the cult.

In the Big Book, Bill Wilson gave us a few hints of that when he talked about how "Father" turned into a raving lunatic and religious maniac after joining A.A., a fanatic who constantly demanded that his family become just like him.

But in general, nobody even thinks about what A.A. is doing to the other family members, unless they join Al-Anon, in which case the damage is obvious.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Tue, September 7, 2004 3:21 pm
Subject Your AA doesn't work site

You should be very ashamed of yourself.

You and Mike Moore are two of a kind .... only you kill people.

Martin D.

Hi Martin,

That's an interesting case of reversal of reality you have going there. A.A. kills people, and you claim that I'm killing people by telling the truth about it...

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Wed, September 8, 2004 8:07 am
Subject Just a thanks

Hope you get this and are the fellow/gal who put the stuff out there RE: Rational Recovery, AA.

I wasted 17 years in hell (AA) trying to believe the unbelievable. Why? Desperation.

Now I know. Not being a drunk has worked for several years now.

Love your pages. Thanks.

Leland H. and Judy H.

Hi, Leland and Judy,

Glad to hear you are feeling better now. And thanks for the thanks.

Have a good day.

== Orange

Date Thu, September 9, 2004 12:01 pm

Wow are you really angry at AA! Going to any lengths to discredit the fellowship. Apparently you really have some overstated and exaggerated information!

Hello, Lenora,

Actually, it is Alcoholics Anonymous that has the overstated and exaggerated information, like Bill Wilson's claims in the Big Book that A.A. had sobered up hundreds or "thousands of alcoholics", when there were only 40 or 50 A.A. members in the whole world. And the deception continues. A.A. claims to be a successful program for saving people from alcoholism, but it is not.

CORRECTION: In the manuscript for the first edition of the Big Book, Bill wrote "more than one hundred men and women" recovered. In the second edition, Bill changed that to "thousands".

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

From: [email protected]
Date Thu, September 30, 2004 12:01 pm
Subject update

I have continued to browse through your impressive online manuscript. I am very curious about your personal AA experience and what happened to energize you to do all the research. It is also very amazing to me that your perception of AA is so diametrically opposed to my own. I am a rather rebellious person, and I have found nothing to rebel against in the anarchy of AA. Like you, I have observed chicanery and hypocritical behavior at times, but I just consider the people I am dealing with and follow a bit of advice that has stood me in good stead these past 25 years: I stick with the winners. I continue to find that the fellowship is a source of amusement and inspiration. I believe AA is a rare example of how people of various religions can share a common purpose with one another. Reading your opinions, I got the impression that you believe AA 's are anti religious or sac-religious (i.e. your ranting about meetings being held in the very churches that the cult of AA oppose). My experience has been the opposite. I would enjoy corresponding with you about our different perspectives.

Hello James,
Thanks for the letter.

About all I can say is that sometimes different people see different things. I know that you can go to some A.A. or N.A. meetings that are very mellow and encouraging, which make A.A. look like a good thing. But behind it all there are still the problems that the A.A. beliefs, dogma and tenets about alcoholism are just plain wrong, and the theology is self-defeating and downright harmful. And A.A. still lies like a rug about its success rate (it doesn't have one).

I notice from your email address that you work with the medical branch of the Veteran's Administration. The veterans in recovery particularly interest me as I am a veteran (in recovery) myself. I see how much the VA pushes AA and ignores SMART, and I find that very disturbing (not to mention illegal). That seems to happen mostly out of inertia, and also out of ignorance.

When you say that your "perception of AA is so diametrically opposed to" mine, I can't help but wonder what exactly you are looking at. If you are a professional in any way involved with trying to save veterans from alcoholism, you cannot help but have noticed the staggeringly high failure rate of 12-Step programs. The usual A.A. answer is that they "didn't work the program right". My answer is that when penicillin fails to clear up an infection, the doctor does not say that the patient didn't work the program right; a competent doctor switches treatments.

I am very willing to correspond about A.A. programs. Please do, and have a good day.

*                 Agent Orange                *
*            [email protected]       *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Being surrounded by a group of people who keep telling
**  you that you are powerless over alcohol, and that your
**  will power is useless, is not getting "support".
**  It is getting sabotaged.
**  With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

Date Fri, October 1, 2004 7:00 am


I have included a letter below that needs your permission to send, as I not only mention you, but actually have the balls to suggest that 48 Hours CONTACT you. I need your permission, obviously, before I do this. Please reply with your thoughts/criticisms/applause/permission at the earliest convenience.

My name is S. C. email: [email protected]



To all at :

I want to write to CBS's 48 Hours and request that they do a show exposing AA for what it really is.

After drafting the letter, I realized that I would be giving CBS links to not only our group here at EFTCoaa, but to many others as well. I decided I should ask permission of the group members (and I will cc to other groups and site owners mentioned for permission) and wait for feedback before proceeding. Please be free with your thoughts: applause and criticism equally welcomed.

Following is the entire body of the email minus my personal contact information, which I would include on sending.


Subject: 48 HOURS Investigate AA and 12 Step — Harm is increasing

Dear CBS, 48 HOURS team:

"DALLAS — Authorities on Saturday were trying to figure out why a man shot and killed two people at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting before staging a four-hour standoff with police." source: http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2203335

A.A., N.A. and many other 12 step groups are much worse than just "ineffective", (though a story on that could easily be done) they are downright damaging. There are 3 United States District Courts who have ruled that A.A. is RELIGIOUS and coerced attendance is unconstitutional. Yet thousands of courts across the country continue with the practice of court-ordered A.A. attendance. This is due to lack of information. The courts, the people of the United States, have been duped into perhaps one of the biggest ruses of our time: that Alcoholics Anonymous is a "helpful" and "non-religious" support group for alcoholics. This is a bald faced lie. The truth is, A.A. is a damaging religious cult, who's effectiveness rate on alcoholism is no greater than no program or support at all, and furthermore has a growing mass of people fleeing it. Why?

I am the "owner" of only one of many online groups for people who are leaving 12 step groups, especially AA, and seeking help in dealing with the damage that they suffered at the hands of such groups. I am an "escapee" myself, after 17 years in the "rewms" of AA. It has taken a year, to reclaim my own thinking and feeling processes and I'm not fully out of the woods yet. I still struggle, more frequently than I would like, with catching the AA brainwashing and have to consciously stop the chant in my head just to focus on rational thinking. I am not as damaged as others I have talked to. One gal in my group had a complete breakdown, delusions and all, with no chemicals of any kind in her body, after 3 or more days of being forced to stay up with no sleep by 12 steppers. I myself, have heard more than a handful of stories of people I KNEW in AA over the last 17 years, who, on the advice of their sponsor, stopped taking medication and as a result committed suicide because their depression was untreated. A.A.er's hardly blink at this: they claim the person simply was not working the steps right. This smacks of the horror stories we sometimes hear of parents belonging to a religious sect that doesn't believe in medication refusing medical treatment for their dying child. However, most of those belong to an identifiable religion. A.A. claims it is not religious and the majority of Americans, A.A. attendees and non- attendees believe it. The reason for this is simply that the facts about A.A. have not been disseminated by the press. I believe no other news show could do as excellent a job of informing America about this danger than 48 HOURS. Simply put, 48 HOURS was created to cover such things.

There are many groups for people fleeing AA and it's sister groups, and many stories like the above. My highest recommendation for intensive facts and cross-referenced information on this movement to leave AA/12 step and the reasons for it can be found at:
This is a highly researched, well cross-linked site specifically focused on AA, it's history, it's founders, where it went wrong and EXACTLY how it IS a cult. Included are horror stories, and the author of the orange-papers site may well be pleased to be contacted by 48 Hours for interview. He has put countless hours into this site to expose AA for what it really is: a court-defined RELIGIOUS group, a cult, generated from an old and extremist religion called the "Oxford Groups" which had their heyday in the 1930's.

If you need more background and evidence of the growing population of unrest from within the ranks of AA, I recommend the following links:

This one has many links to other anti-aa groups. These people are far from extremists: they are, in fact, searching for release from extremist lifestyles they have been forced into within the now- hallowed AA in the United States. The author of this particular site says that Australia is the only country he's run into where AA is NOT abusive. That might be an interesting line of investigation, as it might show what has gone wrong in the U.S. and European countries with the whole 12 step movement.

This is an ex-stepper group on MSN. It's not much different than the many others, but I included it for the MSN community.
UPDATE: They moved. The new URL is:

This is a large yahoo group of ex-AA and ex-"XA" (meaning any "anonymous" program based on the 12 steps originally created by AA) people. It is very open to debate and free thinking, but it's main point is for those needing to be free of the 12 steps.

This group is called Escaping From The Cult of AA. I run this group, and despite only one membership "drive" has continuously grown over a year's time.

This site is dedicated to deprogramming from the damaging brainwashing of AA.

Penn and Teller recently did their own investigation of AA's effectiveness. While palatable, perhaps, for the Showtime demographic, 48 HOURS is more classy and anything you put together would be digestible for the general public. {hope, hope}

Stephen Hassan, ex-Moonie and author of "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds" is a man who knows a lot about cults, what drives a cult, how to tell what one is, how to help a family member who is in one, and how to get out of one.

Hopefully, this will give 48 Hours staff a good beginning into investigations. Besides AA's effectiveness being clocked at a mere 5% only (by their own report in 1989 *), it isn't any higher than having no "program" at all when quitting drinking. Furthermore, there is a growing population of escapees, who's stories defy the normally accepted "helpful" view of AA most of American's have.

Please feel free to contact me via email and have an individual ask for further contact information from me if you decide to pursue this at all.

Thank you for your time and attention.


* The graph below is taken directly from a study done by one of AA's own: Around 1990, they published a commentary on the surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed, published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only. It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate. Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded these numbers:

81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year.


Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.


"People unfit for freedom — who cannot do much with it — are hungry for power. The desire for freedom is an attribute of a "have" type of self. It says: leave me alone and I shall grow, learn, and realize my capacities. The desire for power is basically an attribute of a "have not" type of self." -Eric Hoffer

Hello S.C.,
Thanks for a great project, and sorry to take so long to answer your letter. I just read it in May 2005. I have been offline for a long while. I got the flu last fall, and just got tired, and let the email pile up. But I'm working my way through the stacks.

Actually, I suspect that what I've been going through might be called "recovery from recovery." After four years of recovery, I just got to the point where I found it more interesting and fun to go play in the sunshine and work on my suntan and feed the ducks and geese and play the guitar than to talk about alcoholism and recovery, so I went on vacation for a while — like for the whole winter.

Anyway, you have my belated permission to copy anything I've written, and I suppose I could talk to those TV guys, if they are interested. Alas, I tend to be pessimistic about that. TV news shows seem to be gutless wonders when it comes to anything "controversial", no matter whether it is annoying the politicians in power by telling the truth about them, or annoying the recovery cult by telling the truth about them.

Oh well, have a good day anyway, and thanks again for your work.

And if you don't mind, I'll post your letter to my web site.

== Orange

Date Sun, October 3, 2004 9:30 am
Subject a little feedback...

my name is a____ and i'm an alcoholic. (sorry, couldn't resist ;-)

i'm writing you because i was recently cruising the internet looking for dirt on the 'founding fathers' (i had heard that bill w. tried marijuana during his sobriety) and eventually tripped over your site. wow.

from what i've been reading and how i experience it, i feel like you're fullfilling a personal vendetta against 12 step recovery. yet i'm not so sure that's a bad thing. at least not for me, not at this time. for me it feels like the balance to the other extreme.

as i read thru your site i feel like howling in victory AND wanting to rail about how you're guilty of the same kind of self-serving, repetitive, perspective-shaping as you accuse AA of doing. there is no denying however, what a tremendous amount of research and writing you've done. i'm impressed and i do appreciate it.

i've been focusing on utilizing 12 step recovery with other compulsive patterns in my life and am currently having an attitude problem with long-term AA'ers around here. lately when i try to talk to them, i feel like they come across as 'they're all better' and appear to consider me arrogant and/or 'complicated' to believe there's more to recovery than 'not picking up the first one'.

i'm also tired of all the AA saints. i was taught that one doesn't use ANYbody's name during a meeting, including the 'founding fathers', because that attaches personalities with principles. but sure enough, if i don't hear about one of the local AA legends by name (who all seem to be white, male and some flavour of christian, btw), or what blah-blah shared during the meeting, i get to hear people invoke the presence of bill, bob, and ebby.

hell, i was raised catholic! been there, done that, ran in the opposite direction for many good reasons.

i stopped drinking, and have stayed stopped, since january 1st, 1992. i stopped using drugs earlier by default. i had lost my contacts, really didn't know how to get new ones, and alcohol was always easier to get.

daydreaming was my gateway drug, alcohol my gateway substance and my original 'identity anchor'. i also identify myself as an addict because of the ways i often think and/or act compulsively. seeing as i still choose to smoke that seems to validate my perception.

i say 'choose' to smoke because i believe that if i really wanted to give it up, i'd be committed to the actions that would support me doing so. i'm not saying i'm not addicted to cigarettes. i'm saying i'm not more addicted to quitting them. for now, i'm still content being a somewhat regulated smoker.

i didn't enter AA until april 22nd of 1999. i was going thru an intensely emotional breakdown, barely had anyone in my life at that point and couldn't quickly find any other avenues of support, professional or otherwise. i had been introduced to AA a few times in the past and though i wasn't ready to change when i was first introduced, i felt like there was something valuable there.

during that time of crisis, i still had a couple of friends who i was aware were in program. they listened, empathized, and supported me. they offered their perspectives on what they saw and gave me clear, simple suggestions when i asked for it; but they did not preach to me about going to AA. i liked how they looked at the things i talked about, and figured there might be a connection between their being in recovery and what i was hearing. ("attraction rather than promotion")

being a cynic, i came in cautiously and eventually embraced the fellowship. i'm grateful that i finally did, but now i'm in a disaffected frame of mind as i look for some way to continue building recovery, which i define as part of yet separate from sobriety. it seems i'm in another period of social dissassociation, now even with other 12 stepper's, and for a variety of reasons.

friends i've had who are not in a fellowship are difficult for me to emotionally connect with. either they 'don't get it' or their attitudes are the type that no longer work for me.

i've found and been a part of other rooms that work the principles and the 12 steps around other issues, but they tend to be less plentiful and more difficult for me to get to than AA. i try to stay close to AA hoping for support, but i feel frustrated in finding people with 'time' who can support me. the party line i tend to grapple with is that although 'practicing these principles in all our affairs' is important, any other 12 step fellowship than AA doesn't 'count'. and that 'as long as i didn't drink today i had a good day'. well, that line doesn't cut it for me in the areas where i continue to compulsively self-destruct.

i seldom tell my story because i feel like i might come across as undermining AA somehow. yet, it feels like my experience actually validates how AA, or 12 step in general, does work. or more specifically, the PRINCIPLES do.

when i finally stopped drinking i was in therapy, both individual and group, and was anxious to have the anti-depressants and therapy 'work' this time. i had basically had enough of being miserable (step 1). i chose to believe that therapy, my therapist, and the other people in my group could help me recover from being miserable (step 2), and chose to let them guide me out of the despair i was in (step 3). a thorough moral inventory (step 4) was important just so i could even find out what feelings i had never mind feel them, and my step 5 has been in choosing to reveal myself as often and as honestly as possible in places where i've felt safe, encouraged and intimate. i've found that those places and people can change over the years.

steps 6 and 7 are essentially repeat steps worked by my doing what i can each day to continue building my recovery. 8 and 9 i tend to avoid like the plauge until something is so blatant that i have no choice but to deal with it. step 10 for me overlaps with step 4, and seems to depend on time passed until i deal with a situation that's weighing on my heart.

for step 11, i work as hard as i can at staying in the moment as much as possible. this for me feels like the closest way for me to do whatever my hp's (god, the universe, the thread that connects us all, etc) will is. i've decided that i can never be fully sure that i know what that is. my step 11 is about accepting that i can't choose my emotions, that i can choose my actions, and that i feel better, and live better when i live my life as it is, rather than how i'd like it. it's something very internalized so i pray to bring it out of myself, and to get a better understanding of what the actions of faith may be for me in a given day.

my step 12? well, those results aren't mine to determine. the 'road to hell...' and all. i focus on doing as little harm as possible, and helping when i believe i can (which is no guarantee that i'm 'doing god's will' but hopefully, if i'm true to my nature and the moment, i'm doing okay).

none of the above can work effectively for me unless i choose to change how i operate. i don't have to change what i think or i feel. in fact it was thru a couple of sponsors in fellowship that i was given the perspective that i really couldn't, nor did i need to waste the energy trying to. i do have the choice of how i act in my life and that the more in tune with reality, "life on life's terms' that i was, that would do more to determine how i eventually felt or thought than anything else. faith, i was taught, had more to do with choosing to believe that things are the way that they are for good reasons, regardless of how they felt. that pain is actually guidance, disicipline is actually learning, and feeling better a state of divine grace always available to me when i'm ready for it.

as i reread that last paragraph, i feel like there is even more to grace, spirituality and living life better than i can state. yet, i was taught that it's 'okay' not to have all the answers. another aspect of grace and faith seems to be that i never have to be 'completely sure'. that it's okay, just as it is. i don't have to be perfect in action or emotion, aka "progress, not perfection". that everything evolves beyond my understanding and that all i need to focus on is living in my moment to the best of my abilities.

i too had a hard time with the concept of a micro-managing god, yet it was in the cult of religion and the cult of family that i first heard things like 'even the hairs on your head are counted' and that 'god knows everything', and that thinking it is as bad as doing it. when i hear things in program now like "if it's 'bad' it's because of my will, if it's 'good' it's god's will" it feels more like a continuation of what i grew up with rather than an original idea.

i prefer now to believe in a divinity that knows me and cares for me intimately, that is with me always, and cannot be defined by either prophet or heretic. i have developed a perspective that religion is human, spirituality is of the divine, and that the two link to each other in the individual rather than the group, though interaction is key to the individual's development of spirituality.

system of belief seems irrelevant to me. devout religionist, searching agnostic or dedicated atheist, i believe we use anything we can to create a tradition and a belief system we can follow and share, the risk being that we may shove those personal concepts down everyone else's throats so that we can feel somehow safe or empowered.

it seems to me that any group scenario carries it's own culture; politics, the military, science, academia, business, nationality, ethnicity, family, etc. yet even with all that cultural influence, i believe each individual has her/his own understanding of the truth. when driven by emotion and/or conviction, any of us may be inclined to proselytize. (hell, what am i doing right now?) the level of success seems based not so much on the presentation, or even the facts, as much as what an audience is looking for. from this point of view one aspect in your research of AA, or more specifically, the AA culture, does seem to escape you. we ALL look for some purpose, some function, some identity to define ourselves and our actions. when we feel we've found it, we tend to be reluctant to let go of that initial bond. i believe that in the pursuit of keeping a concept simple or accessible, we can forget that everything is always evolving, including ourselves. and that behaviour is ultimately sustained by an individual's commitment more so than a groups' influence.

i suspect that no one concept, group, idea, what have you, can have sway over us unless we choose to believe we are safer with it than without it. it's not until a method no longer works for us, in fact becomes harmful to us, that we may finally choose to try something else or do a thing differently. at least, that's my pattern. if i don't 'have' to change, i don't. i may have been moving towards a change without my realizing it but even then, if i don't wanna, fo'gettaboutit. this is not my parroting of doctrine. this is how i have witnessed myself to behave.

i believe that it is in perpetually hanging on to old ideas and definitions without challenging them that may not only prevent us from growing, but can make the good we've nurtured to stagnate, and die unfulfilled. i believe this often happens in 12 step and can be true in any facet in our lives. i believe that's part of what i'm currently struggling with in fellowship, and i wonder if in your case that could possibly make your own efforts eventually untenable.

which i believe would be a loss, just like i believe tossing out AA with the bathwater would be a loss. because you've been true to your own self, you have presented me with information that i sought, that supports much of my personal experience, and that i also find myself questioning. like anything else, how i process this information and your perspectives is on me.

i am thrilled that you state things i've experienced or think and that you can present evidence to support your position. i'm also frustrated and angry at the things in your site that i consider reverse extremism or plain, old sour grapes.

but your work helps support me clarifying what i do value, and what i can well do without. i thank you for your efforts. be well,

a. c.

Hi a. c.,

Thanks for the letter. Sorry to take so long to answer — I've been both offline and just tired out for a while.

I agree with you on almost everything you have written. I just have to comment on a few details: I plead guilty to being too repetitive, and often too harsh in tone. But I don't think I'm into a self-serving thing. I get nothing out of this. I don't sell anything — no book or program, or videotapes or treatment center — nor do I get any contributions (other than free web hosting; thanks Al).
[I may accept donations in the future — a friend is telling me that I'm foolish to not connect up a PayPal account to the web site to accept donations to defray expenses — but I haven't in the last 4 years.]

I too believe in some kind of spirituality, while I strongly object to goofy cult religions. They particularly irk me because I am a child of the sixties. Back then, when millions of young people went looking for real spirituality, to get something more in their lives than just materialism and war, a bunch of frauds came over from the Far East and out of the woodwork in the USA (Werner Erhard, L. Ron Hubbard), to lie to them and cheat them. It left a lot of people hurt, disillusioned, or dead.

One Indian judge said, while ruling on a dispute between two brothers, both of whom claimed to be "The One And Only Perfect Master", that "There is no lower crime than deceiving men in the name of God", and I feel the same way. (It turns out that the judge was quoting Mahatma Gandhi.)

So yeh, sometimes I get to be downright harsh in denunciation of phony spirituality and the con artists who sell it.

And I am also angered by stories like the girl in the introduction (here) who cried that she couldn't quite "get" the 12-Step program, and who just relapsed repeatedly until she disappeared. I have seen too many such stories.

Just a few days ago, I ran into my old housing manager from 4 years ago — the woman who ran the floor of the building that I was in while going through that program of "outpatient treatment". She told me that I was THE ONLY ONE from that whole period of time who had not relapsed. I was the only clean and sober survivor left, out of a lot of people. That pretty girl who cried was just one of many such cases.

Nevertheless, the treatment center that gave me a coke-snorting pedophile counselor to teach me how to be spiritual and sober is still in business, still sucking health care dollars out of the system to sell 12-step nonsense to confused victims. What a waste. The state health plan is broke — seriously out of money — but the 12-step cult promoters still get paid. Some really sick people can't get their medications because the money is being spent on such "treatment" of addicts and alcoholics.

I have to strongly disagree with your endorsement of the 12 Steps. — First you said:
"...my experience actually validates how AA, or 12 step in general, does work. or more specifically, the PRINCIPLES do."
... and then you proceeded to explain how you think they work. And then you stated that they don't really work after all:
"...none of the above can work effectively for me unless i choose to change how i operate."
That is the heart of the hoax. The Steps don't work. You have to do all of the work, and change your behavior and your lifestyle, and then you give the credit for your labors to some cult practices.

By the way, for the dozenth time, there are no PRINCIPLES in the 12 Steps. They are cult practices, not principles. Frank Buchman started the habit of calling his cult practices "spiritual principles", and Bill Wilson copied him. "List and confess your sins and shortcomings to your sponsor on your knees" is a cult practice. "Honesty is the best policy" is a principle.

Now I know what you mean by thinking that to totally discard Alcoholics Anonymous would be a loss. I agree that you just don't often find the same kind of understanding and acceptance and comeraderie outside of the recovery community. But that is mixing apples and oranges — something that A.A. is good at doing:
== A.A. is allegedly supposed to be a quit-drinking program, not a church. At least that's what they advertise.
== And A.A. is supposed to be a successful sobriety program, not a fun social club where you get comfort and sympathy while you die from alcohol anyway.

I can't help but feel that A.A. and N.A. are doing more harm than good, and that the good can be accomplished in less cultish ways.

For the social scene and moral support, I strongly recommend ANY of the other recovery groups like SMART, SOS, WFS, LifeRing, or whatever — just some nice club where you can tell the truth without other people freaking out and either thinking that you are an evil weirdo or complaining that you are violating the cult's holy dogma. And maybe even occasionally get some real honest information and helpful advice rather than slogans and simplistic canned answers and pseudo-religious dogma.

Thanks again for the letter, and have a good day.

== Orange

Date Fri, October 1, 2004 12:37 pm
Subject AA

Just so you no the steps of AA come right out of the bible itself. This program is the only place that a alcoholic can relate to people who have done some of the awful things we have done and even get the unconditional love that every human deserves.

No Church, No Wife, No Friend could have saved me. AA has helped me stay sober now for 10 years and I am just 37. It object is to give the alcoholic a chance to become a productive member of society. The disease of Alcoholism centers in the mind. I am either in recovery (in-contact with my God) or I am relying on self to do the right thing. And everytime that I wanted my way I had to lie, cheat, con, manipulate someone to get. Today, I can trust God to give me the strength to do the right thing.

How many times to you lie, tell a story that is all one sided.

You tell me who is the sinner that is throwing stones. Bill Wilson was a very spiritually sick man that God used to help me.

Just as God is doing for me he did for him. However, if I stop doing my part I will always go back to my I have to get my way attitude no matter whom I hurt.

Just because Bill may have used the Oxford Group to come up the Twelve Steps. You may need to study where in the Bible the steps come from. It may help you with your hate or distain for Bill Wilson

Hope you have a wonderful day.

God Bless You.
Jeff W.

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the letter, and congratulations on your sobriety. You did it, you did the quitting, nobody did it for you.

The 12 Steps did not "come right out of the Bible itself". We've been over that again and again here. The idea that the 12 Steps are somehow connected to the Bible is just another A.A. myth, often repeated, but still untrue. The Twelve Steps came from the fascist Oxford Group cult of Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman. Even Bill Wilson said so:

Where did the early AAs find the material for the remaining ten Steps? Where did we learn about moral inventory, amends for harm done, turning our wills and lives over to God? Where did we learn about meditation and prayer and all the rest of it? The spiritual substance of our remaining ten Steps came straight from Dr. Bob's and my own earlier association with the Oxford Groups, as they were then led in America by that Episcopal rector, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker.
The Language of the Heart, William G. Wilson, page 298, published posthumously in 1988.

(Bill Wilson used the name of Sam Shoemaker as the leader of the Oxford Groups because Frank Buchman, the real leader, was very unpopular because of his praise of Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and other Nazis.)

What saved you from death by alcohol was your decision to quit drinking it, and then really doing it and sticking to it. If you have been in A.A. for very long, then you have undoubtedly seen a bunch of the chronic relapsers, for whom the A.A. program is no help. They keep coming back and they keep drinking. Why? Shouldn't the program work and save them? (Now I know you are going to blame the individual alcoholics for "not working the program right", but that just means that the program does not work. You do the work. (Or you don't.))

God did not create the A.A. cult to help you. Please read the file on The Heresy of the Twelve Steps before you implicate God in that hoax.

Lastly, look at the self-contempt A.A. has taught you. (Which is typical of cults — they routinely keep people down by teaching them guilt and self-doubts.) You just prattle on and on about "everytime that I wanted my way I had to lie, cheat, con, manipulate someone to get"... That isn't a positive lifestyle. And such absolute language: "every time". Come on now, didn't you do at least one good deed in your whole life, just because you wanted to?

Andrew Meacham called such behavior "reverse denial". That's where you confess to everything imagineable to prove that you are not in denial. And you grossly exaggerate your sins and failures, and declare that you are a worthless piece of dirt, to show that you are being "rigorously honest". The only things you haven't confessed to are "being gullible", "indulging in wishful thinking", and "allowing yourself to be hoodwinked by a cult religion".

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Fri, October 1, 2004 1:43 pm
Subject AA and alternative help

I'm a bit overwhelmed at the moment, and hope that you might provide me with some practical advice. I came across your website (which I just spent an hour perusing) in search of AA info. Basically, I had some gut-feeling concerns with AA, and wanted to learn more before giving them a try. Your "Cult Test" quickly caught my attention, and increased my concern.

By way of intro, let me say that I have a cultic background (long-term member of the United Pentecostal Church, Int). Since leaving that denomination, now 5y ago, I have struggled to find my path. Unfortunately, drinking was a mainstay in my journey, and I admit now (not openly, but in anonymous email) that I am having problems from using drinking to help me through the day/week/life. I hesitate to use the word addiction, but this is how most would describe it if my lifestyle were to be exposed. I seem to daily choose controlled drinking as a help, while at the same time as recognizing that such help is becoming an increasing part of the problem. I don't want to say tat I need to drink, but neither am I stopping even when I desire to.

WHile I control my use of alcohol to work for me, and give the appearance to most that I'm fine — I am not completely self-deceived (though, I do deceive myself often that I'm fine, when I'm not...). My husband and children aren't deceived — they are increasingly aware, but either too young to know differently, or unwilling to see and uncertain what to do. I realize that this is all becoming the proverbial elephant int he livingroom — and I desire to stop this unhealthy cycle.

Anyway, AA is the only help I'm aware of. If they are themselves unhealthy, where do you recommend someone such as myself go? You seem to tear one thing down, but I don't see that you are giving an option of help in it's place — at least my quick work on your website didn't find such recommendation.


Hi Krista,
Sorry to take so long to answer this. I caught the flu, so my email box overflowed with spam, and I got way backlogged.

Anyway, the short answer is: The single most successful program in the world is:

*do it yourself*.

No joke. Now I'm sure you didn't want to hear that, because you imagine that you cannot quit by yourself. But you can, and that's how 80% of the successful quitters do it.

Now does that mean that you *have to* quit by yourself without help?
Absolutely not.
I particularly recommend SMART meetings. You can get some help and encouragement there.

As a woman, you might also like WFS — Women For Sobriety. I hear good things about them. They don't have groups in every city, but more and more are forming, so I'd ask around. For groups in your area call 1-800-333-1606.

I also recommend reading about the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. Understanding that has been a big help to me. Also check out the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. It is about the same thing, which he calls simply "the beast".

Also look at the recovery books in the "Top 10" list. There are some helpful books listed there. Especially look at

  • Many Roads, One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps, by Charlotte Davis Kasl, Ph.D.,
  • How Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me, by Marianne Gilliam,
  • The Culture Of Recovery; Making Sense of the Self-Help Movement in Women's Lives, by Elayne Rapping
— all three of whom give a woman's slant on things.

Take care of yourself, and have a good day.

== Orange

Date Sun, October 3, 2004 9:24 pm
Subject How Are You So Sure ?

Mr.(Mrs.) Orange,

I did search on BW and came up with the Orange Papers. I guess you have about two or three years of work represented there. The question in my mind is why would someone waste so much time? Even in your ten good points about AA you can't resist taking a shot or two. You seem to have a touch of what your accusing Bill W. of having. The histories are good and a lot of AA's are unaware, but your opinions and some mis- interpretations without the true investigations are over the edge.

Do some home work . I have 27 years invested in AA. I am not one of your stereo typical AA's. Some of your "data" seems bogus. I could guess you monitored meetings Down South but that's just a guess.

AA did not get things as wrong as you say. I wonder if you are an alcoholic or have any experience with live drunks? Long term sobriety is what I am talking about. How do we get data out of an anonymous program? Nobody polled me or anyone I know. What does Hazelton have to do with AA?

What do courts ? Counselors ? Etc.? You have not painted the masterpiece you believe! Like AA it is flawed.

Bedpan Bless You,


Hi Jerry,
and thanks for the letter.

Well, starting at the top, I agree that sometimes my tone is too harsh, but I try to avoid taking cheap shots.

But I don't think I have "a touch of what Bill Wilson had", because I do not declare that all of the alcoholics in the world will die if I don't tell them how to quit drinking. I don't claim to be the Messiah to the alcoholics. I don't claim to have a special hotline to God, or a special hotline to dead people, either. I don't set up a cult and demand that the followers support me in comfort for life, like Bill Wilson did. And above all, I do not hate people and ostracize them and exile them and send them to their deaths because they don't believe what I believe, like Bill Wilson did to Ed (see Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, pages 143-145), and like Bill and the other elders wanted to do to Jim Burwell. (See his Big Book story The Vicious Cycle, pages 246 and 247 of the 3rd edition or page 228 of the 4th edition.)

You ask, "I wonder if you are an alcoholic or have any experience with live drunks? Long term sobriety is what I am talking about."

You haven't read much of my web site, have you? You could start with the introduction, and then continue with my "treatment" program, and also another autobiographical story here. Also see the page on "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster" for one of my favorite techniques for staying sober.

You wrote: "Do some home work . I have 27 years invested in AA. I am not one of your stereo typical AA's. Some of your "data" seems bogus."

Congratulations on your sobriety. That is funny language, you know, "27 years invested in A.A."... Does that mean that you simply cannot afford to be critical of A.A. now, or you will lose your investment? Will you lose those 27 years if you quit A.A. and do something else with your life now? Are you trapped in A.A. because you don't want to lose your investment?

With 27 years, you must be one of the leaders of Alcoholics Anonymous. In Army terms, you are one of the 3- or 4-star generals. What are you doing to fix A.A.? Why don't you impeach and remove from office the entire leadership of A.A.W.S. for the crime of perjury and getting faithful A.A. members sentenced to prison for the 'crime' of "carrying the message" to poor alcoholics in Mexico and Germany? Surely you don't find that to be acceptable "spiritual" behavior, now do you? Do you really believe that the policy of the A.A. headquarters should be, "Profits come before matters of spirituality and honesty"? If you with your 27 years won't fix A.A. and clean out the corruption, then who will? Who else can?

How about the A.A. headquarters telling the real truth about everything? Why not open up those locked and sealed historical archives so that nosy people like me can see all of the old records and documents? If A.A. were really spiritual and rigorously honest, that would not be an issue. The archives would of course be open. But, like so many cults, A.A. is quick to demand that newcomers confess everything and be rigorously honest about their own faults and shortcomings, but as an organization A.A. feels no obligation to be open or honest or admit anything.

By the way, as a leader of Alcoholics Anonymous, what are you doing to end coercive recruiting? When will A.A. adopt an official national policy of telling judges not to sentence anybody to A.A., not ever again, because A.A. is supposed to be a spiritual program of attraction, not a program of promotion or coercion?

I have done a lot of homework, many years of it now, as you correctly guessed. (Look at the bibliography.)

You say that some of my data seems bogus. Please be specific. I research and quote very carefully. Please tell me precisely which statement on which page you believe is untrue, so we can examine the supporting facts.

How do we get data? Read the file on The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment. There are quite a variety of sources of data there, ranging from the Alcoholics Anonymous World Services' own triennial surveys and publications, to the book by A.A. Trustee Prof. George E. Vaillant, describing how he used A.A. on his alcoholic patients, and what the result was, to many other doctors doing studies and tests of A.A.-based treatment.

You say that they didn't ask you? Well by all means, let's have the A.A. headquarters, or even better, the NIDA or NIAAA do some better surveys, this time getting more facts. And let's do some real testing, valid medical tests with control groups, to establish once and for all what the A.A. success rate really is. (But A.A. supporters actually resist that. Project MATCH had no control group.)

What is Hazelden?

Hazelden is three things:

  1. A residential 12-Step treatment center at Center City, Minnesota,
  2. A publishing house,
  3. And it is also the biggest A.A. promoter in the world, and the biggest distributor of A.A.W.S.-published literature. Hazelden is such a fanatical promoter of the 12-Step cult religion that the California Supreme Court ordered Hazelden to remove both its literature and Alcoholics Anonymous literature from the California schools because Hazelden was pushing its own religion on the children.

See The Hazelden Coffee War for one story about them. Also see the bibliography for a list of some of their publications. Just tell your web browser to search for the word "Hazelden" and you will find a lot of them, many with links back to quotes from their books.

Lastly, you ask, "What do courts have to do with A.A.?"

The answer is, unfortunately, "Far too much."
Really now, you cannot possibly be ignorant on this point.
Please don't play dumb with me.
In your 27 years of attending A.A. meetings you have undoubtedly signed a huge load of those court-ordered attendance slips, haven't you?

Every day, people are sentenced to go to meetings of A.A. or N.A., or pressured in by some "treatment program", or "diversion program", which is illegal and unconstitutional, and many courts have so ruled, but that practice continues anyway, and A.A. does absolutely nothing to stop it. Nothing. They approve of coercive recruiting with a silent wink while the A.A. promoters and front groups like Hazelden openly encourage it. The centerfold of the November 2002 issue of the AA Grapevine summarized the results of the most recent triennial survey of the A.A. membership. It found that the vast majority of the A.A. members — 61% — had been "introduced" to A.A. by pressure or coercion from the health care system or criminal justice system. That is called coercive recruiting, something that no other cult in America can get away with.

You wrote, "My experience has been the opposite."
I understand that some groups seem pretty mellow; just a bunch of nice people talking about drinking and not drinking. But the pleasant little neighborhood meeting is just the tip of the iceberg, just the most visible part of what I call The Evil Empire. I think of the friendly neighborhood meetings as being the velvet glove that covers the steel fist of a coercive, oppressive, mind-controlling organization.

And no matter how nice the meeting is, they still begin the meeting by reciting the standard plastic-laminated dogma from pages 58 and 59 of the Big Book — Bill Wilson's lies about how great the program works, and how rigorously honest the program is... (Fake It Till You Make It..., Act As If..., Dole out the truth by Teaspoons, not Buckets).... No matter how nice the meeting is, newcomers will still get fed the standard misinformation about alcoholism and recovery, which hinders recovery more than it helps. And no matter how nice the meeting is, beginners will still get fed that fake spirituality where they can worship anything from a stone idol to a Golden Calf to a Group Of Drunks as their "God".

I would really love to see an A.A. meeting where people actually told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about Bill Wilson, the Twelve Steps, and the failure rate of "the program".

I strongly suspect that Hell will freeze over before that day comes.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Mon, October 4, 2004 3:45 pm
Subject AA


I have 7 years of sobriety and things have gotten better and better....... unfortunately in the last year since i have left AA...

AA is built on cliche afer cliche and lie after lie.....how anyone thinks that constant brainwashing and belittling can help a person is beyond me.........

i found a wonderful way to not drink... just say no ....

"AA is not a Religous program it's a spiritual program;" what a crock of shit.... it's worse for your spiritual health than any religion i'm familiar with........ Drinking is always a choice.. period.... powerlessness is a word invented by AA...

when i left AA my so called AA friends left me... I'm a threat to them..... i was at the point of pulling a charles whitman on them....... AA is not freedom it's slavery to cult group think.

well i spouted off enough... lol


Hi Tom,

Thanks for the letter. I agree.

== Orange

Date Tue, October 5, 2004 8:52 pm
Subject Could you please add this page to your link page?


I noticed that you have a link to healthyplace.com located on your site, on page: www.orange-papers.info/orange-heresy.html

My site features material complimentary to healthyplace.com. I was wondering if you would consider adding a link to it from your site. My site takes a very unique look at how music can be used as an outlet to help people express their feelings in a positive way. I feel that my site would be of interest to your visitors.

I imagine you are an extremely busy person, but could you possibly add a link to my site? I would really, really, appreciate it.

Thank you for your time, and best wishes with your site. I would be happy to reciprocate back.

Here is my link info:

URL: http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com

Title: Music Therapy and Using Music in Psychology

Description: Examines the power of using popular music, something people already listen to, as a way for people to express their feelings. Includes examples of therapeutic messages in popular music as well as original music by Freudian Slip, therapeutic rock band.

Thanks again,

Matthew J. Bush, MSW, LSW

Hi Matthew,
That sounds just wacky enough to be useful.

I also intensely love music and often use it to control my own moods. For the last 24 hours I've been on a big Neil Diamond binge.

I will add the link, but it will be a while before I get updates uploaded. But eventually.

Have a good day, and thanks for doing what looks like some interesting work. Every little bit helps.

== Orange

From: Michael 7th
Date Thu, October 7, 2004 9:39 am


How much time and effort have you spent trying to debunk AA? It looks like a lifetime...

I read alot of what you wrote. I don't know what your experience is with the program of AA ut you have clearly a biased and limited view of what it is all about...

I wish you the best.

Hello Michael,

Well, you could start with the introduction, and go from there to my "treatment" program...

Have a good day.

== Orange

Date Sun, October 10, 2004 8:37 am
Subject What an idiot

Sounds to me like you have a mental problem. We get some real crazies in our program. However we always welcome you back.

Bob T.

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the letter.

Heck, I might be still crazy after all these years, but that's beside the point. No matter how crazy I may or may not be, Bill Wilson was still a criminal fraud who sold cult religion as a quack cure for alcoholism, and Alcoholics Anonymous is still a hoax with a horrendous failure rate.

And you will welcome me back? How generous of you. You just don't get it, do you?

Even if I had relapsed (which I haven't), and needed help or encouragement to quit again, I would not go to Alcoholics Anonymous. I would go to SMART, or SOS, or any of the other non-cult groups that do not begin their meetings by reciting the lie, "RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path...".

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

[2nd letter from Bob T.]

Do you really think I would waste any more time on an extremely sick fuck like you? Sounds to me like you were dropped on your head or you did some time with Buba... did he use Vaseline?. hope he didn't. Yea put this on your web site also, I could give a shit idiot.

Bob T.

Ah yes, 12-Step Spirituality, isn't it wonderful?

"Let us love you until you can love yourself."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

Date Sun, October 10, 2004 7:51 pm

you are being selective. the book also says..... we have no monoply on getting sober. and if anyone can do the right about face and drink like a gentleman our hats are off to him.................. real alcoholics can not.

75,733 men and women died of alcohol 2001. it has the 3rd largest death rate of prventable diseases. it kills people and ruins families.......... why do you care how they get better........... not well, better............. as long as they do.

i know a lot of people who are all the things you say alcoholics are......... the recovering alcoholic IS trying to be a better person. that is a good thing. why are you going to such lengths to make it a bad thing.

at my group you are allowed to question. i have been reading all kinds of litauture to find out the truth. it is a spiritual program, and the other books and the world concensus on spiritual are all throught that book. bill did not write that book AA big book, the first 100 did, give or take a few. and yes, some of the stuff bill wrote and put out by himself 12&12 he even wrote the chapter To the wives in the big book like he was a wife............ there are plenty of AA members who do not feel that these writings are god inspired......... but bill's ego.

you need to talk to a large number of people to get the truth............... because your website is not it.

Hello, rchjr,

What you are describing in the Big Book, "we have no monoply on getting sober", etc., is just one more of Bill Wilson's bait-and-switch tricks. Bill routinely talked out of both sides of his mouth, using whichever side was convenient at the moment. When he wanted to sound liberal, tolerant, and broadminded, he declared "we have no monopoly" and "we know only a little".

Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Foreword, page xxi.

Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, A Vision For You, page 164.

But then Bill switched to declaring that disobedient A.A. members were signing their own death warrants, and that A.A. was the only way:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 35.

And a new member who believed Bill Wilson read the Big Book and then wrote for the next edition of the Big Book,

Here was a book that said that I could do something that all these doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists that I'd been going to for years couldn't do!
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 473.
Yeh, after a couple of years of indoctrination in cult religion, you will know more than all of the doctors and priests in the world. Yeh, right.

I agree totally about how bad alcoholism is, and how many people it kills, but that does not make A.A. a good organization. Remember that above all, A.A. does not work to cure alcoholism, or to make people quit drinking, or to save alcoholics from death. Also remember that Alcoholics Anonymous is the premier sobriety program in the USA [or self-help group — cult — church — religion — treatment program (chose your favorite term)], and in 60 years A.A. has not improved on those horrible statistics that you cited, not at all. (If anything, they have gotten worse as A.A. has usurped the field of alcoholism treatment.) So reciting the grim statistics about alcoholism is pretty pointless, unless you are arguing that we should dump A.A. and get a better program, one that won't produce such a high death rate.

Now if your group allows debate, questioning, and criticism of Bill Wilson, the Big Book, and the A.A. program, then good.
But why are you so quiet?
So why don't you publish your own Big Book that tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so that beginners can get something besides Bill Wilson's lies and propaganda tricks?
Why are the "open-minded" A.A. members so silent, except for a few rare exceptions like Dick B. and Mitchell K.?

By the way, I really have talked to a large number of people. You know what I routinely get? When I pull out the Harvard Medical School quote about the great numbers of people who recover alone, on their own, without A.A. or any 'support group', they say, "Hey! I've got to get a copy of that. My hard-core-Stepper counselor always says that A.A. is the only possible way to recover."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

[2nd letter from rchjr:]

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005
Subject: response

the truth is, i really don't care about all the other people. i tried to get sober by myself more than once, i always went back to drinking and i always lost everything again. i tried organized religion, unorganized religion, with help , without help, psychologist, doctors, (lawyers) i stayed in trouble, friends, family, husband, no husband, straight boyfriend i could add to list........none of that worked for me. what has worked for me ( a real alcoholic ) not a hard drinker, is AA.

Meaning: you tried to quit drinking alcohol several times, and it took you a while to learn the hard way that you can't both drink alcohol and stay sober. That was just a learning experience, and it had nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous or any other group of people or friends or family.

Do you realize how absurd some of your list sounds?
Did you go to friends and family and boyfriend and lawyer and say,
"Please tell me to quit drinking so that I will quit drinking",
and they said it, but it didn't work?

What the heck do any of them have to do with you just getting a grip on yourself and just not putting any more alcohol in your mouth?

How could they possibly "work for you" to make you quit drinking? What nonsense.

Undeniably, the way that you finally achieved sobriety was that you finally just quit drinking alcohol. Everything else is irrelevant, and everybody else is irrelevant.

i don't publish my own works, because everything has pretty much been said or written already about alcohol and spirituality. you can say it a hundred different ways, add a twist here or there, but since the beginning of time, it has all already been covered. none of what is in that book is original either, nor does it claim to be. AA puts out a list of all the books that the progam was pulled from. and once again, the meat of the program was not written by bill alone. 108 members (coming and going) contributed to that literature.

"The program" was "pulled from" the Oxford Group cult religion, but the A.A. headquarters does not list those Oxford Group books. But I do. Look here.

the problem i have is that you make it sound evil and bad. like i said, it is a resource. why not just leave it at that. it sounds like you have had a bad experience with AA?

"A resource"? A resource that spreads misinformation about alcoholism and increases binge drinking and kills alcoholics?

We really don't care if people join us or not, nor do we try and hold you there. that is one of the reasons i kept coming back........ no one forced me to believe anything and i could come and go as i pleased and there are no dues to pay and no one governs.

You may not be forced to go to A.A., but lots of other people are -- those who are illegally sentenced to A.A., and those who get conned into it when they agree to "treatment".

there are no leaders, bill and the board of trustees turned it over to the members a long time ago.

Oh no they didn't. The AAWS headquarters in New York is totally out of control — they have even rewritten the rule book to serve themselves — and they are even committing perjury and getting A.A. members sentenced to prison for the 'crime' of "carrying the message" to poor alcoholics in Mexico and Germany. Check out those links.

As one disgruntled A.A. member put it, the "trusted servants" have become "twisted serpents".

there is a reason why people from all kinds of higher education have studied this program............. because it should not work and no other organization in the world works the way this one does. not just on (staying) sober, but the fact that we show up cause we want to and do it all for free.

Lots of organizations work like how A.A. does — Scientology and the Moonies, just for starters. After all, A.A. is just another cult. Read The Cult Test.

THE twelve steps are found in all kinds of literature. maybe not in one set book or in that order, but they are tried and tested methods on treating the spirit thoughtout all kinds of religions and beliefs.

Yes, you can find the contents of the 12 Steps in other literature.

  • Many cults, including the Oxford Group, from which Bill Wilson got the material for the 12 Steps, say that you are powerless over sin and have been defeated by it, just like A.A. Step 1 does.

  • Scientology says that it can restore you to sanity, just like A.A. Step 2 does.

  • The Moonies say that you must surrender control of your will and your life to a Higher Power (like the Messiah Rev. Sun Myung Moon), just like A.A. Step Three does.

  • Many cults demand confession of sins, like A.A. steps 4 and 5 do. Even Red Chinese brainwashing programs demand such confessions.

  • All of the rest of the ideas for the 12 Steps — like "making amends" and conducting "Quiet Time" séances — came from the Oxford Groups. Bill Wilson said so. So yes, you can find the contents in other places besides Alcoholics Anonymous literature.
But the 12 Steps are most assuredly not "spiritual material"; they are cult material. And they are not "well thought-out" or "tried and tested", other than as an effective program for converting people to believers in a cult.

your against principles, not a program, cause that is really all that program is, principles.

No, there are no "principles" in the 12 Steps of Bill Wilson. The 12 Steps of A.A. are Oxford Group cult practices, not religious or spiritual principles.

I am against evil lying cults, not against spirituality. In fact, my love of honest and true spirituality is one of the things that motivates me to criticize cults. And I find people who lie in the name of God to be rather despicable.

By the way, your accusation that I am "against principles" is a standard cultish ad hominem attack. If someone criticizes A.A., accuse him of being against spirituality and against God. Well, A.A. is not God. Criticizing the dishonesty of A.A. is not being against spiritual principles.

bill is dead dude, he has no hold over us now, he can't even talk anymore.

Like hell he can't. Bill Wilson talks every day. At every A.A. meeting, someone starts the meeting by incanting his lies one more time:
"RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail..."
"constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves"
"born that way"
"...which are suggested..."
"a program of attraction, not promotion"
"should never be organized"
...and then they read some more of his crazy ravings out of the Big Book or As Bill Sees It for more "inspiration".

why not just be happy for the people that it has helped and made thier life better. the bottom line is, i can not go to AA. i can go to where alcoholics meet. i have to live the program of AA on my own, no one can do that for me, but i do like meeting with other alcoholics...... they are great people with great spirit. drunk or sober.


As usual, you are assuming facts not in evidence. A.A. does not have a great success rate, and A.A. is not a wonderful help to lots of alcoholics. A.A. has a clear record of killing more people than it helps.

And this is the best line of all: 'A.A. members are "great people with great spirit. drunk or sober."' ???

So you love the A.A. cult meetings, even if the program isn't working and the members don't get sober?

I agree that you will sometimes meet some nice people at some A.A. meetings, but that does not make A.A. a good organization or an effective way to cure alcoholism.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

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