Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXLIX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Paula_F ]

Date: Thu, March 14, 2013 7:11 pm       (Answered 19 March 2013)
From: "Paula F."
Subject: Who are u

Sent from my iPad

Hello Paula,

I just answered that question a couple of times, so I'll refer you to the answers here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "When a man says 'I cannot' he has made a suggestion to himself.
**     He has weakened his power of accomplishing that which otherwise
**     would of been accomplished."
**       ==  Muhammad Ali

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Kevin ]

Date: Sun, March 17, 2013 7:14 am       (Answered 19 March 2013)
From: "Kevin"
Subject: Im leading an aa meeting this morning

So i was looking for a topic for the meeting this morning and ran across your article on why aa doesn't work.

I ask people all the time if they have seen those fad diets on television, you know the ones, the south beach, p90x, body for life, the juicing thing. Usually they say yes. Then I tell them that not a single one of them are fad diets. They ALL work. I mean the proof is right there, beautifully sculpted bodies, fat people that are now thin. You really can't object. However, if you rad the fine print you get the rub; results not typical.

Well, the simple reason why the results aren't typical is that most people don't follow the program or those who do, stop after a fashion and return to their old self.

AA is no different. There is no magic other than doing the next right thing makes life flow so much better. prayer and meditation are simply a means to get into that flow.

If a person stops working their AA program or has never really worked it, they drink again. it really is that simple.

God or the universe removing my obsession with smoking is in fact a bonifide miracle in my book. More so than removing my obsession witth alcohol. Just FYI.


Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the letter.

When you claim that only people who "work the program" to your satisfaction really count, you are using the logical fallacy and propaganda trick that is called Observational Selection, also known as "Cherry Picking".

By the same illogic, someone could claim that Satan-worship has a 100% success rate as a program of sobriety: "Just worship Satan, and always do our Satanic practices instead of drink alcohol, and you won't have a problem with drinking. NEVER have we seen a person fail, who has THOROUGHLY followed our path."

But of course that doesn't mean that the Satanic program is any good for the average people who don't want to join a cult religion.

This line assumes facts not in evidence:

If a person stops working their AA program or has never really worked it, they drink again. it really is that simple.

Baloney. There is no truth to that. I stopped going to A.A. meetings 12 years ago, and I still have almost 12 1/2 years of sobriety now.

And in fact, the vast majority of the sober people do not go to A.A. meetings, and never did:

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

You believe that God is doing special favors for you, even while he ignores the plight of little sick and starving brown and black children in other countries:

God or the universe removing my obsession with smoking is in fact a bonifide miracle in my book. More so than removing my obsession witth alcohol. Just FYI.

Your belief is only evidence that you believe things. I also quit smoking over 12 years ago, but I won't be so egotistical as to claim that God waits on me hand and foot and does special favors for me.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Evidently God can cure cancer and tuberculosis, but cannot
**     grow a new leg...  This is blasphemy, but not mine — the
**     priests and faith healers are guilty of limiting God's powers.
**          ==   Abraham Myerson
**     The same goes for curing "alcoholism",
**      while failing to cure other conditions.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Kevin2 ]

Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 4:28 am       (Answered 21 March 2013)
From: "Kevin"
Subject: Re: Im leading an aa meeting this morning

The only thing you diod in this reply is put words in my mouth. I didn't say, "people who "work the program" to your satisfaction really count"n never would. I couldn't give a rip how anyone else works their program. The FACT is that those who work a program daily, HONESTLY, stay sober. Those who don't don't. When I stop doing it DAILY, I will most certainly drink because I'm an alcoholic.

Hello again, Kevin,

No, I did not put words into your mouth. You said,

...most people don't follow the program or those who do, stop after a fashion and return to their old self.

AA is no different. There is no magic other than doing the next right thing makes life flow so much better. prayer and meditation are simply a means to get into that flow.

So who decided whether people had "followed the program"? Who decided whether they "did the right thing"? Well, you did. It wasn't Genghis Khan, or Napoleon, or the Pope, or Jesus. It was you. You decided that the people who drank didn't work the program right, and those people who abstained from drinking did work the program right.

Then, by that false logic, you could declare that 100% of the people who were sober worked the Program right.

And again, you are judging people now, even while you deny doing it:

The FACT is that those who work a program daily, HONESTLY, stay sober. Those who don't don't.

And how do you decide whether those people are working the program HONESTLY? You pass judgement on them, even while you say that you don't "give a rip how anyone else works their program."

You decide that those who are drinking are not working the program HONESTLY, while those who don't drink are working the program HONESTLY.

God is doing me no special favors as again you like to attribute. I prayed and meditated and followed a PROGRAM of smoking cessation and because I FOLLOWED a program and continue to FOLLOW a program I remain smoke free.

You declared that it was a miracle that you quit smoking. "God or the universe removing my obsession with smoking is in fact a bonifide miracle in my book." A miracle is an event where God or Jesus or somebody with supernatural powers breaks the laws of physics and makes something impossible happen. So who or what performed your miracle for you? Was it God or Jesus or Gandalf? And how did you talk that being into doing you a big favor and making you quit smoking?

There is no magic to AA nor is God MAGIC fairly land. There IS a right way to live and a wrong way and the effects of living the right way can be felt almost immediately.

Now that statement sounds reasonable. That rules out A.A. of course. The practices of Dr. Frank Buchman's evil cult religion are not the right way to live.

If you're an alcoholic then I can almost guarantee that you are drinking or will shortly. I KNOW this because I am an alcoholic and I know how it goes.

Wrong again. Yes, I'm an alcoholic, and I have well over 12 years of sobriety now. I also don't take drugs or even smoke cigarettes. I have 12 years off of them too. And no, I'm not going to relapse soon. And no, I don't need A.A. or the 12 Steps to keep me sober.

What you are demonstrating now is the standard cult characteristic, 84. You can't make it without the group.

And the A.A. answer to that Cult Test question is here: 84. You can't make it without the group.

I use AA to keep me sober. I am not beholden to AA and AA asks me for nothing, so how does that make them a cult?


You use A.A. to keep you sober? But you just said that A.A. does not have any magic. Only right living counts. You can just as easily do the right living without belonging to a cult religion.

I also use right living to keep me sober, and that's why I don't join crazy cult religions, or do their mind-bending practices, or lie to newcomers to recruit them into the cult, or tell sick people that A.A. has a never-fails cure for what ails them.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Success is simple. Do what's right, the right way, at the right time."
**          ==  Arnold H. Glasgow

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#HAMS ]

Date: Mon, March 18, 2013 9:13 pm       (Answered 21 March 2013)
From: "Kenneth A."
Subject: [Orange Papers] Please share if you are a harm reduction HAMSTER!

Kenneth A. posted in Orange Papers

Please share if you are a harm reduction HAMSTER!

Photo attachment:

Hamster on wheel

Reply to this email to comment on this post.


Thanks for that. That's good.

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings.
**     Reject the insidious pressure in society that would blunt your
**     critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that
**     would caution silence in the face of injustice lest you
**     jeopardize your chances of promotion and self-advancement.
**     This is how it starts, and before you know where you are,
**     you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack.
**     The price is too high.
**       ==  Jimmy Reid

June 27, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Mallard Duck Family
A Mallard Duck Family

Bald Eagle Chicklet
Bald Eagle Chicklet
Finally, suddenly, the baby eagle appeared. You can tell that this is the child by its gray head. Bald Eagle chicklets take at least three or four years to get the pure white head of an adult. Also, the chicklet's tail is not pure white either, and the beak is also streaked with gray, while the beak of an adult is pure orange..

Bald Eagle Chicklet
Bald Eagle Chicklet

Mallard Duck Families
Two Mallard Duck Families

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Mat_R ]

Date: Wed, March 20, 2013 10:05 am       (Answered 21 March 2013)
From: "Mat R."
Subject: AA has no compassion!

Hello Terry,

I hope that you and all your friends, feathered and otherwise, are doing well.

As I irregularly dip into the pool of knowledge provided by various Buddhists I keep encountering the word "compassion". With a nagging thought, the likes of which can only be prompted by omission, I dd a word search of the pdf file of the Big Book provided by AA.org. Yeah, just as I thought, "compassion" is to be found nowhere in the Big Book or the Twelve&Twelve.

The saddest thing is that I wasn't surprised at all...


Mat R.

Hello Mat,

Thank you for the letter and the good wishes. And thank you very much for a really revealing observation. Somehow, the idea of searching for compassion in the Big Book never occurred to me.

And you are quite right. Not one reference to compassion? There are all kinds of lectures about how you must join A.A. or die, and lots of raps about how disgusting those alcoholics are, but no compassion at all.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Daily Dharma November 26, 2012
**     The Necessity of Love
**     There is no denying that consideration of others is worthwhile.
**     There is no denying that our happiness is inextricably bound up
**     with the happiness of others. There is no denying that if society
**     suffers, we ourselves suffer. Nor is there any denying that the
**     more our hearts and minds are afflicted with ill-will, the more
**     miserable we become. Thus we can reject everything else: religion,
**     ideology, all received wisdom. But we cannot escape the necessity
**     of love and compassion.
**       — H.H. the Dalai Lama, "Consider Yourself a Tourist"
**     http://www.tricycle.com/node/31900

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Tom ]

Date: Thu, March 21, 2013 12:55 am       (Answered 22 March 2013)
From: "Tom"
Subject: Letter From Kevin

It's been a couple of years since I've written you and I'm coming up on five years sober. The last three being entirely without AA. After a couple of years of meetings and having never done one single ridiculous step, the light bulb went on and I realized AA had nothing to do with my sobriety. It is indeed a cult whose motto should be, "Misery loves company. Keep coming back!"

When I encounter the few friends I made at meetings that are brainwashed enough to keep going back, they always ask — with raised eyebrow, "How are *you *doing?" And while I'd like to say "better than you" I take the higher road and just say "fine, thanks." I know deep down they truly believe I will fail and die because I'm not working a good program.

Which brings me to the reason I'm writing. I just read a letter you received from "Kevin" who wrote:

"If a person stops working their AA program or has never really worked it, they drink again,. It really is that simple."

"Kevin", I'm here to tell you...You. Are. Wrong. I never really worked it, stopped going entirely and I have never been happier or felt stronger about remaining sober ON MY OWN. In fact, I work a wonderful one step program...Step One — Don't drink!...It really is that simple. You fool.

I enjoy your work Orange. Have a great day.

Warmest Alohas,

Hello Tom,

Thank you for the letter. I have to agree. The funny thing for me is, when I meet the people whom I used to know from A.A. and N.A. meetings, or from the "treatment program", I hear that most all of them have relapsed, so they aren't too eager to lecture me about how to stay sober. When I met her on the streets years later, my former floor manager in rehab housing told me that out of my entire treatment center class of well over 100 people, I was the only one who had not relapsed.

I only know a few people from those days who are even still going to meetings. Most have decided that it's a waste of time. I recall one old guy sitting in the lobby explaining why he doesn't go to meetings any more: "I've heard all of their stories so many times that I can recite all of them. I just don't need to sit through any more of that."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life
**     through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the
**     certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely
**     drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be
**     dead indeed. With us it is just like that."
**       ==  The Alcoholics Anonymous "Big Book", pages 14-15.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Timothy ]

Date: Thu, March 21, 2013 2:39 am       (Answered 22 March 2013)
From: "Timothy"
Subject: Love the site

Mr. Orange,

Stumbled on your site a couple of weeks ago and have thoroughly enjoyed it.
I must say that the amount of work involved in collecting and collating such a vast amount of information is just beyond me.
I haven't read it all but I've made my way through a lot of it and will continue reading in the future.

I thought it was just me!
I thought I was the only one. The only one who saw that the Emperor had no clothes :-)

I was forced by court order to check myself into a rehab facility and then AA meetings for a year as part of a probation plea for my second DUI.
Did I have a drinking problem? Of course I did. Nobody without a drinking problem gets up two hours early to go to work and drinks 3/4 of a pint of Bourbon, snort some lines (At 6 A.M.) has three or four whiskey's at lunch, more coke and then a fifth before bedtime.
The only reason I didn't get fired from my job was because my boss knew I had a problem and wasn't willing to do anything about it.
I was the boss and I knew I had a problem.

DUI the 1st and I lied all the way through the alcohol/drug evaluation, secured the services of the best lawyer in town, who had the charge reduced to Reckless Operation, and done. Done. And all this for only $4500.00. It was never going to happen again.
DUI the 2nd eight months later and there was no avoiding some major consequences.
$6000.00 this time with Lawyer fees and fine, a year suspension of my license, a year of supervised probation (drug and alcohol tests are all it amounted to really) and no jail time if I'd commit to a 30 day Rehab. DEAL! Rehab lead me to AA where I was indoctrinated into the program and as part of my probation I went for an entire year.

I hated it.
I hated the cliche slogans, the pithy sayings, the pat answer that wasn't an answer at all. For every and any question you asked, these smug bastards seemed to have a Chinese fortune cookie answer.
I wanted to be sober and stay sober. I DIDN'T want to be told to "keep coming back" or that "it works when you work it."
I wanted to know what you did at 2:30 on a Thursday afternoon after working outside in 90 degree weather and the only thing you can think about is how good a tall ice cold glass of Bourbon and water would taste right about now. "Call your sponsor" Yeah, I tried that. The worthless shit said he'd call me right back. Then didn't. "You need to not be so selfish?" REALLY!?!?

I hated it.
I hated the 12 Steps, the "powerless over alcohol", the "searching and fearless" puke up that is the 4th step. I REALLY hated the reliance placed on that unprovable, childish and rather silly hypothesis that I call god.
(As if some omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent "god", the creator of the fucking universe, is going to change its plan just because I asked. I mean, if god has it all in control, why would he make someone an alcoholic drug addict in the first place? Then its going to change me because I'm sick of drinking all the time. REALLY!?!?

I started drinking again as soon as I cleared from the Department of Adult Probation. Worse than ever. No dope but twice the booze. Binge drinking now. It wasn't pretty and I could safely say it was the worst period of my life.
I went an entire week, I took vacation, and didn't draw a sober breath.
I told my sponsor I "slipped". He told me to work the steps.

I finally had enough when he told me I had to rewrite my 4th step. He told me I wasn't being brutally honest enough.
So I made up a total load of shit.
If I recall it involved 30 or 40 extra marital affairs, have you ever been really really drunk and coke wired out of your mind? Sex just ain't happening. Even if the will was there the ability is somewhere else. LOL
A murder in an alley, the molestation of sundry farm animals and a bank robbery.
Okay I'm making the last three up but I did pile on a load of crap to make my 4th step more "interesting" and, he told me to rewrite it one more time.
Sorry Rob, fuck you.

And I quit and then, in less than a month I quit drinking. Almost as soon as I quit going to AA!

I was watching the movie Little Big Man. Caught it late on a Friday night on a cable channel. Drunk, of course. Are you familiar with it? Dustin Hoffman, Faye Dunaway...anyway.
There's a scene in that movie where the Wild Bill Hickok character looks at Dustin Hoffman who is shit faced drunk in the street, wearing rags, covered in mud, sucking on a bottle of whiskey and Bill Hickok says to him "Hell hoss, I know any goddam fool can drink hisself to death."

I basically had the same type of experience as you did, Orange. I made up my mind I was NOT going to die like this.
I finished off what I had that night, and have not had a drink or illegal drug in over eight years.

Sorry this went on so long. Keep up the good work.

"They have freedom who dare maintain it"

Hello Timothy,

Thank you for the letter, and please don't appologize for the length. It's a great letter, and wouldn't have been as good if you cut it shorter.

I can only agree. It's a national tragedy, the nonsense and heretical religion that gets passed off as "treatment" for drug and alcohol problems.

And then to sentence people to such quackery and cult religion is not only illegal, it's unConstitutional. And it's also counter-productive. Alcoholics Anonymous drives people away from recovery. It also drives them to drink.

And congratulations on getting your life together and kicking the addictions. That's great. But of course you already knew that.

It is more than a coincidence that you quit A.A. meetings and quit drinking and drugging at the same time. I've heard so many people say that A.A. meetings made them want to drink. And I've experienced it myself. I would leave A.A. meetings thinking about getting a fifth and really tying one on, when I had been fine before going into the meeting. Fortunately, I only thought about it, and didn't really do it. But I was thinking about it. I could taste it in my throat already. And N.A. meetings made me think about getting a load of dope and getting really high. Funny how that works.

Here are some letters that complained about the same problem:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Heard on TV: "This is what I watch to escape."
**     I don't want to escape. I want to change my reality
**     so that no escape is necessary, or even desired.

June 27, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

five Mallard Ducklings
The five Mallard ducklings of the previous family

Bald Eagle
Bald Eagle. This is one of the parents of the previous eaglet.
The apparent gray spots on the head of this eagle are just shadows from a branch.

Greylag Goose and Canada Goose and gosling
Gus and his family

Canada Goose family with goslings
The oldest Family of 3
These children have grown so big that it is getting hard to tell who are the parents, and who are the children. The biggest indicator is just that the children are not quite as big or filled out or heavy as their parents. And the white spots are not as bright white as their parents'.

Here, it looks like the children are the three smaller ones in front. But of course. They are rushing to me to get something to eat. The young ones are still children, and they are still growing rapidly, and they are still always hungry.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Carolyn_M ]

Date: Sat, March 23, 2013 5:36 am       (Answered 25 March 2013)
From: "Carolyn M."
Subject: Thank you

I joined AA in 2006 after a divorce and some destructive drinking. I didn't stay long. The jargon and the stepford wives feeling I got drove me away for another year.

In 2007, I was lonely, and since I have a positive history with the Search For God meetings through the ARE, I went bak to AA. All of my friends, even my young daughter, told me they didn't think I was an alcoholic. I told them I needed the spiritual support of a group to stay sober.

That year I was mostly hit on by older men. I never connected w the females, although I did try. I could only attend noon meetings since I have a disabled son who requires total care, so that was part of it.

I left. Off and on I would return, but I felt bad that I just never caught on to the correct way to "share". I didn't attend enough meetings to really get it.

Reading through your site validates what I was thinking. Fortunately, I could never swallow what they were pushing.

Looking forward to reading more.

Sent from my iPad

Hello Carolyn,

Thank you for the letter. I am glad to hear that you have your eyes open and are seeing what is happening. And I hope that you are feeling better now.

By the way, I got the same "wrong sharing" thing too. When I went to an A.A. meeting many years ago to pick up my 6-month sobriety coin, I "shared" that I was really happy to be sober, and that being healthy felt so much better than being sick. I got subtle frowns because my sharing was not negative enough. They wanted tears and confessions and misery and me moaning about how bad I am and how good my sponsor is. (I didn't even have a sponsor.)

Isn't it really very odd how they didn't want to hear a happy success story? I wonder if what they really want is to hear that everybody else is just as bad as them.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. says that alcoholism is a disease, not a moral shortcoming.
**     That's why you must list and confess all of your sins and moral
**     shortcomings and wrongs in Steps 4 through 7.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#mark_j ]

Date: Mon, March 25, 2013 8:06 pm       (Answered 28 March 2013)
From: "Mark J."
Subject: please do add me

thank you...i am a 12 step survivor too...i was arrested (on false charges) by a group of 12 steppers in new york's westchester county... to force me out and silence me...ten years later i attempted to return to my home town and was stalked and almost arrested again. my life certainly changed when i joined their twisted little cult and i hate them with every fiber of my being (sorry if thats a little raw...this subject kicks up alot for me)
mark j.

Hello Mark,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope things are getting better for you now.

So have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**         In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies,
**         but the silence of our friends.
**           ==  Martin Luther King, Jr. 1929—1968

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Martin_L ]

Date: Tue, March 26, 2013 1:38 pm       (Answered 28 March 2013)
From: "Martin L."
Subject: A few questions

I have read you papers and agree with much of what you say. That being said I go by the adage whatever works is ok. One size does not fit all. Everyone is able to decide for themselves which way they want to handle their lives and problems, be it AA or any venue that works. That being said you are counter productive in that regard. No one knows who you are or what your real agenda is. Do you drink? Do you believe that people have the right to choose which path they wish take? Everything is relative regarding recovery if that is their goal. There are no absolutes. The biggest problem I have is that recovery has become an industry sold by various corporations to make money. There are so many variables regarding this issue. Perhaps we should meet some time an discuss it over a few beers.


Hello Martin,

Thank you for the letter.

I agree that everyone should be able to choose his own path or method of recovery. What is not okay is having lying frauds selling fake cures. How would you like it if you discovered that some grinning con artist was selling your mother quack medicine for a serious illness?

The propaganda trick you are using in your letter is called Escape via Relativism, as in, "It's just one opinion versus another, and any opinion is just as valid as any other." Not so. Some opinions are based on facts and evidence, and some opinions are based on superstition, ignorance, and stubborn refusal to see the truth.

You said,

Everything is relative regarding recovery if that is their goal. There are no absolutes.

That is wrong, completely, totally wrong. There are lots of absolutes, like "Two plus two equals four." The answer is absolute and will always be four. The answer will not be three or five if that's what you like. And whether somebody is dead or healthy is not just a matter of your opinion versus my opinion.

And there certainly is such a thing as harmful quack medicine. Cyanide koolaid is not a cure for the common cold. Colloidal gold is not a cure for cancer.

And there are solid facts regarding recovery, including the fact that Alcoholics Anonymous is a fraud, quack medicine and cult religion that hurts more people than it helps. Even a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, Dr. and Prof. George E. Vaillant, found that A.A. did not cure anybody, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics. And he proved that while he was trying to prove that A.A. works. You can read the whole story here.

And here is a list of methods of recovery where Prof. William Miller and his crew at the Center for Alcohol, Substance Abuse and Addictions at the University of New Mexico rated various methods of recovery:
Note that A.A. and "twelve-step facilitation" are so far down the list that you have to look for them, at numbers 37 and 38 in effectivenss. Also, they have a very negative rating.

Lastly, telling the truth about the real failure rate of A.A. is not "counterproductive". Telling people the truth, so that they can make informed choices, is a good thing to do.

Oh, and your question, "Do I drink?" is actually irrelevant to a discussion of whether A.A. works as a cure for alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction. Nevertheless, I'll answer your question, and the answer is, "No, I don't drink at all. None whatsoever. I have over 12 years of continuous unbroken sobriety now, and I did it without A.A." If you wish, you can read all of the details of the story here. You can find all of the autobiographical information there.

So, no, we won't meet and discuss it over a few beers. Been there, done that, and those days are gone forever.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If the truth is that ugly — which it is — then we don't have
**     to be careful about the way that we tell the truth. But to
**     say somehow that telling the truth should be avoided because
**     people may respond badly to the truth seems bizarre to me.
**       ==  Chuck Skoro, Deacon

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters350.html#Martin_L2 ]

Date: Thu, March 28, 2013 5:13 pm       (Answered 30 March 2013)
From: "Martin L."
Subject: Re: A few questions


I'm listing you under the category of you are smarter then I thought you were. But so am I. You originally interested me because I read your manifesto and even though I'm not a manifesto guy agreed with most of it. The individual that I find more intriguing then you is Stanton Peele. At least he doesn't hide under a mask. That being said I stopped drinking a number of years ago then started again socially. I am comfortable with that. I found that people change and have the ability to take control of their lives as they mature. I also believe that 12 step AA for fee based recovery programs are big business that are taking advantage of an opportunity to make a big buck at the expense of the people they are allegedly pretending to help. When there is money to be made business will come out of the woodwork to try and capitalize on it. You Should probably have a cocktail once in a while, it probably won't kill you. Thanks for the reply.


Hello Martin,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't have a "manifesto". I'm simply laying out the facts.

I do not hide behind a mask. I use the pen name Orange because I've been using it for so many years that some people know me by no other name. My birth name is Terrance Hodgins and I live in rural Oregon west of Portland, and I've said that on my web site many, many times. I already pointed you to all of the autobiographical information. That isn't hiding behind a mask. I've revealed a huge chunk of my life story there.

I agree that having so-called "treatment centers" selling the 12-Step cult religion as a cure for the "disease of alcoholism" is a criminal racket.

I totally agree that "people change and have the ability to take control of their lives as they mature." That explains the entire apparent A.A. success rate. A.A. merely steals the credit for those people who were going to quit drinking anyway. A.A. does not cause people to quit drinking, or keep them sober.

Lastly, no I should not have a cocktail now and then. Apparently you don't understand that some people have a genetic or psychological disposition to addiction to alcohol, and those people should never drink alcohol. See the book SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs by James Christopher, and especially check out the interview with Dr. Kenneth Blum, titled "The Fickle Gene". Blum discovered one of the genes that appears to contribute to alcoholism, and perhaps also a tendency towards drug addiction.

By the way, I've already tried moderate drinking, and it did not work for me, because it never stayed moderate. But total abstinence is easy for me to do. See: How did you get to where you are?

Oh, and what would be the goal of me having a cocktail now and then? To make me care less? To make me cool down and stop telling the truth? To readdict me? What?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If you're reading it in a book, folks, it ain't self-help. It's help".
**      ==  Comedian George Carlin

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Ismael ]

Date: Tue, March 26, 2013 5:55 am       (Answered 28 March 2013)
From: "Ismael B."
Subject: Hi

First, I would like to apologize in advance for any misspellings and errors. English is my second language.

I still reading your page and looks very interesting. A couple of year ago, I lost someone very dear to me to a cult.

I been wondering, is the information given by you on the page is of your making? Are they your conclusions? Your background is on this kind of subjects? Are you a cult survivor?


Hello Ismael,

Thank you for the letter and the questions. I'm sorry to hear about the friend that you lost to a cult. Yes, those things are insidious, aren't they?

The answers to your questions are, yes, the Cult Test and the writings about cults are of my own creation. I studied a lot of books about cults for many years, and I also had a lot of personal experiences with cults back in the nineteen-sixties and -seventies. Now I never got hooked into a cult and gave it my mind and my soul — so I'm not a cult survivor in the bad sense — but I learned a lot about them. At that time, many phony gurus were coming over here from India and Japan and Korea, and many more phonies and fake gurus were popping up in the USA, and I checked out all of them that I could because I was very interested in new-age spirituality. Back then, I didn't know how many of them were cults. I thought that those new groups were just wonderful new-age Eastern religions, something new to explore. So I innocently wandered from one to another, learning, and seeing what they were about. But somehow, I never quite "married" one, and gave it my heart and my soul. Or my mind and my life. Something would feel a little "off", so I would just wander down the road to another one. Or sometimes it was just chance, because I moved on and couldn't get to a group any more. Little did I know what grief I was avoiding. It was 10 or 20 years later before I learned how many of them were really cults.

The list of books about cults is in the "Cults" section of the bibliography here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, declared that A.A.
**     was a "bridge" to unquestioning faith.
**     (The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Page 53.)
**     Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, sold Scientology
**     procedures as a "bridge to total freedom".
**     Gee, in cults, everybody wants to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Kenneth_A ]

Date: Mon, March 25, 2013 8:57 pm       (Answered 28 March 2013)
From: "Kenneth A."
Subject: [Orange Papers] New photo
To: "Orange Papers"

Kenneth Anderson posted in Orange Papers



Hi Ken,

That's good. Thank you.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We must think things, not words, or at least we must constantly
**     translate our words into the facts for which they stand, if we
**     are to keep the real and the true.
**       == Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
**          address, New York State Bar Association, Jan 17, 1889.

June 27, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Several families jumbled together

Canada Goose goslings
Gus and Family

Canada Goose goslings

Canada Goose goslings
The younger Family of 6

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Joe_B ]

Date: Wed, March 27, 2013 8:04 pm       (Answered 29 March 2013)
From: "Joseph B."
Subject: Approval

Its been Many years since Iv had any AA contact , I can attribute my salvation to the orange papers . Most of all a orange . You opened my eye's to the cult and emboldened me to step out of the AA bubble and applied myself to life again . If I can be of any service to you this would be a good way to repay my debt .

Years of working on other men's issues has made me cynical and I do wish to return to the roots of my Enlightenment .

Thank you Joseph

Hello Joseph,

Thank you for the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their
**     spells dissolve, and the people recovering their true sight, restore their
**     government to its true principles.  It is true that in the meantime we are
**     suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long
**     oppressions of enormous public debt.  But if the game runs sometimes
**     against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we
**     shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost,
**     for this is a game where principles are at stake."
**         ==  Thomas Jefferson

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html#Ric_S ]

Date: Thu, March 28, 2013 2:08 am       (Answered 29 March 2013)
From: "Ric S"
Subject: Hi,I survived AA.

Hi Folks,

10 years ago and after hospital trips, this 34yr old was scared and desperate, the internet still pretty hopeless and my local herbal detox centre
suggested doing aa just to fill some time and to get out.

This was only suggested for my first few visits ,the centre applied for a funding application. one of the conditions was to force people to go to aa or na,so along we went..... only to see grim,white knuckled corpses telling me how good it was to be sober. the white knuckle corpse was celebrating his 50th, from shitscared to deathly scared in an instant, I was asked to share and just walked out, I rolled what looked like a ciggy and waited to be taken back...

That was my intro to aa,I kept going back for something to do...I could control the situation in there...by saying nothing,remembering when I mentioned hospital I meant the Psych unit...where after the suicide attempts saw me face to face with a prominent Psychiatrist.....no more than a meter apart..

Can you see why I chose aa?

With baggage already packed (haha) I moved from Canberra to Sydney and the socially depressed western suburbs where Wesley Mission had dry housing and programs designed to stop the drinking,this housing was an umbrella to WM and run by bornagains or your fundamentalists.

AA wasn't pushed, however, favour was found if you attended.... so, being a control freak and after the previous guy lost interest, I took over, dimmed the lights, used oil burners and around the outside, the chairs nice and cosy, the newage music helped as well, I wanted a campfire feel and it worked, it allowed people to open up.

To cut a long story shortish, I told these cunts to get fucked, I'd sold my house previously and bought in Sydney city and needed something more.

I did a few meetings and decided my life was in greater danger walking at night to the meetings (yep,I know some excuses) and started drinking again, bloody lovely city to get pissed in BTW and after 2 years of this and another trip to detox, this was at St Vincents Hoz in Darlinghurst and where I saw a leaflet to do some cognitive therapy...

a little more drinking and then the desperate phone call that changed my life, it was to the SMART program...................................

So, after 6yrs of CT and a year on my own, I'm a very pissed off over aa and their lies.

I started reading the OP some time ago, now I feel I must devote some time to at least make people understand the erroneous nature of aa..

They will need to kill me to stop me.


Hello Richard,

Thank you for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well now. And I'm also glad to hear that you are interested in spreading the truth. Welcome, come on in, the water's fine.

So have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Every thinker puts some portion of an apparently
**     stable world at peril.
**     If God had intended us to fly, he would have given us wings.
**     Well, didn't He?
**        ==  Peter, Paul, and Mary
**     If God had intended us to think, he would have given us brains.
**     Well, didn't He?

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Last updated 19 April 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters349.html