Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXXVIII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Camille ]

Date: Mon, January 7, 2013 12:51 am     (Answered 9 January 2013)
From: "Camille"
Subject: Thank you!


10 min into scanning your site and I just want to say THANK YOU for having the chutz to air AA's filthy f'in laundry!

I have a son with a 9-year "sober" AA liar whom I was with and conned by for three years. He went from drunken Wall Street crack and cokehead to reformed addiction therapist as well as now a damn clinical director of a rehab, often referring to himself as a "local legend in the recovery circuit". We met while I was an escort. He was my regular, of course, and remains a compulsively lying, pack a day smoking, escort mongering, NSAID-dependent, recovery "hero". Fancy that.

Btw- I've been to several Al-Anon meetings and even got a sponsor, but stopped attending when I finally had that WTF moment where I realized I was being brainwashed to believe a fact you stated in an article about Al-Anon members needing to become understanding and take care of the "ex-boozer" forever.

I just tried to join your group on FB, and am going to join the forum in a bit. Thanks again, for being truly "honest and transparent", it's refreshing!


Sent from my iPhone

Hello Camille,

Thanks for the story.

It is appalling, isn't it, that such guys are considered qualified rehab counselors and even directors? Such quackery.

And such people actually get paid with our tax dollars, in various city, state, and Federal programs for rehabilitating alcoholics and drug addicts. And then those frauds suck even more money out of health insurance programs and run up the costs of health care until some impoverished Grandma can't get her prescriptions filled. That happened here in Oregon. Various drug and alcohol "treatment centers" were getting paid $1700 per person for pure fraud — 12-Step quackery that didn't work at all, until the Oregon Health Plan went broke, and then really poor, desperate sick people couldn't get their medications.

I'm glad to hear that you are free now.

So have a good day and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. quackery, straight from the horse's mouth:
**     "I have no doubt that a man who has cured himself of the lust for alcohol
**     has a far greater power for curing alcoholism than has a doctor."
**       ==  William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 320.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Robert_M ]

Date: November 27, 2012 at 2:07pm     (Answered 9 January 2013)
From: Robert M.
Subject: Facebook post

So I criticized aa and 12 step programs and tried to help my fiancé recognize the fact that she was the reason she quit and informed her of what I thought of her program. I believe she ran to her flunkies and they informed her that I was a bad influence and she needed to leave a stable man who found his own power and ability to not drink.

She is now more unstable and is involved with many different men both in the program and out, making decisions which adversely effect her life as well as her children's.

I believe in free speech but 12 step programs are predatory groups and should, if not be outlawed, then come with a warning label such as:

  • "This program has the potential to destroy healthy relationships and fuck you up.

  • "In these walls you will meet dregs of society who may or may not be serious about recovery and who can influence you to do horrible things to your family.

  • "Look for support in your own family first, and friends comforting someone is not sucking someone's cock. Intimacy should be only shared by two when in a committed relationship."

  • "AA is a predatory organization and should be feared."

Thank you AA for stealing my life from me with your bullshit facade of morality. You robot fuck bags eat shit and die.

Thank you. Rant over.

Hello Robert,

Thanks for the post. Have a good day now, if that is possible.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by
**     its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which
**     blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
**        == Dresden James

June 10, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Mallard Drake
Mallard Drake

Great Blue Heron
Great Blue Heron

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Peter_C ]

Date: Tue, January 8, 2013 10:20 pm     (Answered 11 January 2013)
From: "Peter C."
Subject: Why

Why do you waste your time on this crap? You distort things. AA is OK. It does help people. What have you done lately to help people?

Hello Peter,

Thanks for the questions. I do the Orange Papers web site to get the truth out. No, I don't distort things, and A.A. is not okay, and A.A. does not help people. You should look at the doctors' reports of what A.A. really does to people. They found that A.A. actually:

And in addition, there is plenty more evidence that:

  1. Sponsors do great harm by telling their new sponsees not to take their medications.
  2. The historical A.A. success rate was never any good.
  3. A.A. has a really bad sexual abuse rate.
  4. A.A. increases the suicide rate.
  5. A.A. increases the divorce rate.

That isn't good.

And how could it be otherwise? How could the practices of an oppressive old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties really be the cure for substance abuse problems?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Spiritual quackery:
**     God wants you to bleed your patients. God wants you to take a sharp razor,
**     and open a vein in the patient, and bleed out those bad humors.
**     Oh, and don't give your patients any medications. Trust God to heal them.
**     It's spiritual, not religious.

[The previous letter from Brian_M is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Brian_M ]

Date: Tue, January 8, 2013 9:36 pm     (Answered 11 January 2013)
From: "Brian M."
Subject: Re: AA site


I appreciate the response. What is your take on the solution to alcoholism? I did not read your thoughts on it. How do you see the problem and what in your opinion is the solution? I think we are in an age where the thinking seems to be shifting on this issue.

Thanks Brian

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Brian,

Thanks for the question. I answered that one at length here: How did you get to where you are?

That answer also includes links to lists of discussions where a variety of people talked about what helped them, and what works, and also links to the other sobriety organizations and methods like SMART and SOS.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     No "treatment" works on people who don't want to quit.
**     "No treatment" works on people who do want to quit.

[The previous letter from Oleh_D is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Oleh_D ]

Date: Wed, January 9, 2013 9:30 am     (Answered 11 January 2013)
From: "Oleh D."
Subject: Re: God Bless you

Wow. I get the A clockwork orange connection. Is that what you propose? Why such a stick up your butt vs aa?

One reason recidivism increased in aa is that not everyone in aa should be in aa: courts put them there, guys out to get women/ guys, women out to get guys/ women....

How did you stop drinking?

Dr. Oleh D.

Sent from my iPad.

Hello again, Oleh,

Thanks for the questions.

I don't get the "Clockwork Orange" connection. I never mentioned or suggested that. The movie A Clockwork Orange described a society where violent criminals were tortured with aversion therapy until they were so freaked out that they were incapable of committing another violent crime. I never described or suggested any such treatment of alcoholics or drug addicts.

Personally, I got some aversion therapy from just getting sick from alcohol too many times. Now I have an aversion to getting poisoned that way again. But that sure isn't like the movie A Clockwork Orange.

I am opposed to A.A. because it is harmful quack medicine, not a treatment for "alcoholism" or addictions. It's also a very dishonest lying cult religion that kills more people than it saves.

The recidivism rate in A.A. now is pretty much the same as it was in the beginning. A.A. was always a great failure. Cult religion just doesn't work as medical treatment. When he wasn't lying about what a great success A.A. was, Bill Wilson revealed the truth:

At first nearly every alcoholic we approached began to slip, if indeed he sobered up at all. Others would stay dry six months or maybe a year and then take a skid. This was always a genuine catastrophe.
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, (1957), page 97.

At a memorial service for Dr. Bob, Bill Wilson actually bragged about the pathetically low success rate of the whole A.A. program. (Bill was making himself out to be a long-suffering hero, working tirelessly to promote Alcoholics Anonymous.) Bill described the early days of A.A. this way:

You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait.
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

You can read much more about the failure rate of A.A. in the early days here:

How I stopped drinking is described in a bunch of places:

  1. How did you get to where you are?
  2. A biography written for SOS
  3. really an alcoholic...
  4. The magic moment of quitting

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
**  over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
**    ==  Richard Feynman

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#James_B ]

Date: Fri, January 11, 2013 2:17 pm     (Answered 14 January 2013)
From: "James B."
Subject: AA

I read your papers and couldn't help wondering why your so angry. Was one of your parents an alcoholic? Anyhow iv been sober in AA for along time & pride myself with being relaxed with all new people who come into our programme. But I guess my experience dosnt count, as I'm sober & full of well being, happiness & hope. Il make a point of not offering any of that to anyone else- on your recomendation.

Cheers jim

Hello Jim,

I'm not all that angry. If you want to see angry, you should read the messages on my forum from some of the people who wasted 10 or 20 years in A.A. Now those people are really angry about how they were deceived for so long.

In comparison, I am merely irritated and annoyed at the presistence of fraud and quack medicine.

Yes, one of my parents was an alcoholic. If you want my history, it's all there:

  1. the introduction, my introduction to A.A.
  2. the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick
  3. another friend goes missing
  4. who are you
  5. who are you, again
  6. really an alcoholic...
  7. Rat Park and Other Children's Stories
  8. A biography written for SOS

It's wonderful that you are sober and happy. Congratulations for choosing to quit drinking, and then having the determination and will power and self-reliance to really do it. Of course your favorite cult religion had nothing to do with it.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#James_C ]

Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 1:26 am     (Answered 14 January 2013)
From: "james C."
Subject: WOW

Interesting way to become self-righteous...... Put down the man trying to help himself..

Spiritually Lives.... But then, I guess, so does Narcissism ..

You've found one, now I hope you find the other..


Hello Jim,

Wrong, totally wrong. That wasn't even a good attempt at character assassination. I have never put down the people who are struggling to break out of addictions and bad habits and improve their lives. Never. I challenge you to find even one example of that. On the contrary, I'm quite interested in helping them.

What I criticize are frauds and con artists and fake holy men who are practicing medicine without a license, foisting the practices of an old pro-Nazi cult religion on sick people and lying to them and saying that "the program" works great.

The rest of your message is pretty incoherent. "Spiritually Lives"? You have an adverb and a verb, but no subject.

Are you trying to say that "spirituality lives"? That would be an interesting slogan, a cute battle cry, but untrue. "Spirituality" does not eat or breath or have sex and reproduce, so it does not live. Neither does narcissism.

Now there is such a thing as spirituality, and Alcoholics Anonymous sure isn't it.

Want to try again?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
**     When all you have is a cult religion, everything looks like a
**     spiritual problem.

[This letter is in reply to:
https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters337.html#Julian_S ]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Noel ]

Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 5:19 am     (Answered 14 January 2013)
From: "Noel"
Subject: Re: Authority?

Not only did the Catholic Church proscribe its adherants from belonging to the Oxford Group (the template for AA and the other 12-step movements) twice, it actually had and still has an abstinence based movement of its own.

This movement was founded in Ireland in 1898, so it comfortably predates AA. It is called the Pioneer total abstinent association and this association mentions precious little about steps. I believe it is also found in the USA.

I wonder why it is very passive about promoting its own policy for abstinence yet alone why is it standing by and passively accepting a programme (AA) which is at variance with its own teachings.

Hello Noel,

Thanks for the information. I had not heard of the "Pioneer Total Abstinent Association" before. I shall have to search and investigate and learn more.

I don't know why the Catholic recovery groups don't do more to publicize themselves. There are also the Calix and the St. Vincent DePaul organizations, and they run some recovery programs and facilities, but do very little publicity. In fact, I can't recall having heard any.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     ...and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
**        ==  Matthew 24:11

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Bryce_S ]

Date: Sat, January 12, 2013 4:23 pm     (Answered 14 January 2013)
From: "Bryce S."
Subject: Hello old friend

I am researching the Alcoholics Anonymous book as I am taking several people through a 12 step workshop using the Alcoholics Anonymous book as a textbook. Everywhere is says to do something, (e.g. ask, pray, write, make amends, consider, make a decision, make a list, tell some one else, etc.) we will do so. Why would some one do such a thing you might wonder? What do we have to lose? As an experiment? How will doing all of the actions outlined in the book in the first 103 pages possibly change much of anything, let alone our lives?

In any case I came across your site once again and now see how important the work you do is. What I now believe is that all paths originate from and return to the same place. That place for me can only be experienced deep down within. It has only been by continued efforts to lay aside prejudice, search fearlessly and diligently within and adopt an attitude of open mindedness that I have become free and a willing to be proved wrong, and interested in the search for truth, peace and joy.

In the words of Dr. Silkworth, "I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."

I would love to read your experience with the experiment of using the book Alcoholics Anonymous, without the cult of AA, on your own, outside of AA meetings and sponsorship, doing as precisely as possible, the actions (verbs) explained all throughout the first 103 pages. Could be an interesting challenge.

Wishing you health and happiness in 2013,


Hello Bryce,

Thanks for the letter. That certainly sounds like an interesting experiment. Personally, I think it would be highly unethical, knowing what I know, but an interesting experiment in the Dr. Mengele sense of the word.

The whole Big Book is just Bill Wilson's copy of Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion, with some testimonials added in back. The 12 Steps that Bill Wilson wrote down are just Dr. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group cult recruiting and indoctrination practices. They are not good. They do not have good effects on people. They induced nervous breakdowns in the followers of Buchmanism back in the nineteen-thirties:

I'm sure that you are capable of realizing that the results of Chinese Communist brainwashing were not good.

But it will still be a very interesting experiment. Care to write up the results? Especially please keep track of the suicides, divorces, mental breakdowns, relapses, and things like that. And please pay attention to both the success stories, and the drop-outs and burn-outs and disillusioned people, and other cases like that. It would also be good to compare all of your cases — both the successes and the failures — to another group of similar alcoholics who get no 12-Step treatment at all.

Oh, and of course no excuses or qualifiers are allowed, like

  • "They didn't work the program right."
  • "They didn't do a complete inventory."
  • "They didn't completely follow our path."
  • "They didn't pray enough."
  • "They didn't keep coming back."

Everybody counts. No excuses allowed.

These are rather vague, sweeping statements:

What I now believe is that all paths originate from and return to the same place. That place for me can only be experienced deep down within.

The line that "all paths originate from and return to the same place" is one of those pseudo-spiritual sayings that made the fake holy men of the 'sixties so irritating. That is actually a meaningless statement. It sounds like it means something, but it doesn't. (But it sounded good enough to elicit some donations from the suckers.)

A friend of mine coined a term for such talk back in the early 'seventies: "Cosmidelic Bullshit". That is talk that sounds all cosmic and psychedelic and spiritual, but it is bullshit.

How about these generalizations?
"All paths originate from and return to Auschwitz"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to Hell"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to selfishness"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to sexual desires"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to dick-size contests"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to the desire for power"?
Or "All paths originate from and return to fear of death, and the desire for immortality"?

Aren't sweeping generalities, based on no facts at all, such a bitch?

Well, let's see: The one place that every path and everything originated from and may return to is the Singularity that existed before the Big Bang. Whether we will all return there depends on whether gravity can overcome the outward expansion of the Universe. But there is new evidence that the expansion of the Universe is increasing and accelerating, not slowing down. Maybe we won't ever return to the Singularity. Maybe the Universe will just keep on expanding forever, in which case the future is going to be very strange, and very dark, and very, very, spaced out.

If you mean some enlightened spiritual place like Heaven where we all return to dissolve in loving bliss, I don't know if I really like the sounds of that either. I don't really want to get all loving and close and chummy with the remains of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung for all eternity. And if those guys go to the same place as me, no matter what they did and no matter what I do, then what's the point of being good? What does it matter? Be really, really good and you can end up being the bedmate of Jeffrey Dahmer and Theodore Bundy, forever? Do I have a choice? What if I'm not so good? Can I go someplace else?

By the way, there is zero evidence that practicing the 12 Steps and the other garbage in the Big Book will get people to Heaven or some enlightened serene spiritual state of mind. Again, the real effects of the 12 Steps are to induce feelings of guilt, powerlessness, inadequacy, fear, self-doubt, and dependency. That isn't spirituality or enlightenment.

I don't put any stock in the scribblings of Dr. Silkworth. He was a quack who poisoned people with belladonna, and then endorsed cult religion as a cure for a "disease".

I also wish you health and happiness in 2013. And have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Spiritual Consumerism
**     Spiritual experience and goods can certainly reinforce a consuming mind,
**     too, and it is no surprise to see this happening in a consumer culture.
**     Marketers are successfully targeting spiritual consumers as a market niche
**     and figuring out exactly what fulfills their self-centered yearnings.
**     How many of these products are necessary for spiritual enlightenment?
**     Probably not one.
**        ==  Stephanie Kaza, "Ego in the Shopping Cart"
**           http://www.tricycle.com/ego-shopping-cart
**           Daily Dharma,  November 23, 2012

June 10, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Greylag Goose and Canada Goose goslings
Gus and his wife

Canada Goose goslings
Children of Gus

Canada Goose gosling

Mama Bald Eagle
Mama Bald Eagle
It's very hard to see in this picture, but that is the Mama Bald Eagle tending to her nest.

Papa Bald Eagle
Papa Bald Eagle
Meanwhile, the father sits in a nearby dead tree, and keeps watch.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Laura_T ]

Date: Wed, January 23, 2013 3:52 pm     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: "Laura T."
Subject: Fwd: Karla Brada article

Hi all! Please see article below. I am sending it to all who I know care and can help spread the news. It is proving difficult to find a major news publication with the moxie to publish this most important information. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you to JR Harris for posting it on orange papers. [forum]

Laura T.

Begin forwarded message:

From: Laura T.
Date: January 23, 2013, 3:33:15 PM PST
Subject: Karla Brada article

What is your worst nightmare as a parent? We all know the answer to this question. If there is any truth to the law of attraction, we are not going to even think about it, lest we invite it to us. The first thing you want to know if your child is in an accident, is if they are injured. The recent horror of the Sandy Hook Elementary school mass shooting serves as a terrifying reminder. Guilt is part of parenting and the guilt for these parents who lost their babies at school, a place we trust to be safe for our children, must be debilitating and overwhelming. Yet, it is not possible for us to consider this happening to our child, no matter what their age.

One such story is that of Jaroslava and Hector Mendez and family. The Mendez's live in a beautiful ranch style home in Santa Clarita, California, filled with memorabilia from their past, a very homey feel, pictures and treasures adorning the living room and, of course, pictures of their three daughters. Their eldest, their youngest, and their middle child Karla, who died at 31 years old, on August 31, 2011. Karla was a beautiful young woman who was a diabetes supplies medical tech, a great softball player, and loved her dog Kloe, as a mother loves a child. Karla was just getting started in life. At 31, she was dating and enjoying life, having fun and beginning to discover herself. She was also drinking alcohol and testing her limits, like most young people do. She had been charged with a DUI (driving under the influence) after a car accident. She was reportedly driving with a bac (blood alcohol level) of .08. Fortunately, she was not injured, nor had she injured others. She attended inpatient rehab and was taken in a van, with all the other patients, to AA meetings. Jaroslava and Hector wanted their baby Karla to get the help she needed and were happy to see her getting some help.

Soon after becoming a member of AA, Karla met a man there and bought a condo in which the two were living together. His name is Eric Allen Earle, and he was mandated by the courts to attend AA meetings as a condition of his parole. Eric Earle's criminal record looks like something from a CSI TV show. It is truly terrifying the number of restraining orders that have been filed against Earle, by his ex-wife and his own father. Earle allegedly murdered Karla by strangulation after she had asked him to move out of her condo. A few weeks before her death, Earle was arrested for battery after beating Karla. Earle's AA sponsor, Patrick Fry, allegedly talked Karla out of pressing charges, and the charges were dropped. Since 1991, Eric Earle has been charged and convicted of 22 civil cases, has 8 restraining orders filed against him and has accumulated more than 52 criminal charges. It might seem strange that he did not spend more time in jail, but his record shows that he was put on probation, with AA attendance as a stipulation, an all-too-common mandate. As any thinking person knows, AA and the 12 steps are cult religions that require one to give one's life over to a higher power, pray, and recruit others to the cult. Those indoctrinated in AA are now screaming (and boy do they scream when someone tells the truth), "AA is spiritual, not religious." No sorry, you are mistaken and brainwashed. Those of us who have studied this cult and have been exposed to it know that it does more harm than good. The so-called Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous was taken directly from the Oxford Group teachings, but the references to God were softened in order to attract the most members possible. Please see the link below.

The claim that AA is "spiritual, not religious" is one of many ways AA founder Bill Wilson covered his tracks, and sold his program to the vulnerable and lost people it still attracts and brainwashes today.


Eric Earle had proposed marriage to Karla and she had accepted. As evidenced by his criminal history, Earle is one of those guys who preys on vulnerable women like Karla, gets into their lives as fast as possible, then bleeds them dry of all their money and simply moves on to his next victim. Originally, Earle was not charged with murder since he claimed he woke up to find Karla unresponsive the morning of August 31, 2011. Allegedly, the police believed Karla was the victim of an overdose. Months later, after an autopsy was finally conducted at the insistence of Karla's family, Earle was arrested for the murder. Her family knew that she had not overdosed, she did not take drugs, and at the time was not even drinking. Her family had no idea that Earle had been mandated by the courts over and over again to 12 step meetings. They had no idea that Earle had been kicked out of his parents house for beating his father. They had no idea that Earle was living off of Karla and had her paying his child support. They trusted the pervasive dogma that anyone who wants help need only attend meetings and work their miraculous "steps." Is your child safe in 12 step meetings? Absolutely not. The guilt Jaroslava and Hector are now living under 24 hours a day, 7 days a week is truly heart breaking. Be warned... No one is safe in a 12 step meeting as long as people like Earle are there.

The 9th circuit appeals court in 2001, deemed that "coerced participation in a religion-based program was unconstitutional because eight state and federal courts had ruled on the issue and all had agreed that a parolee has a right to be assigned to a secular treatment program." This Federal Court System has deemed mandated AA attendance unconstitutional. This system covers Alaska, Arizona, California, Guam, Hawaii, Montana, Nevada, N. Mariana Islands, Oregon and Washington. However, all these states continue to mandate AA because a circuit court decision is a ruling, not a law. This does not mean that people do not fight it, they do, but very few because of the cost. Also, most people do not know their rights and go along with whatever the judge, lawyer and parole officer says in order to comply. It is also a get out of jail free card for criminals like Eric Earle. Eric Allen Earle was mandated to AA for at least 17 years before murdering Karla.

Has AA been established to be a religious organization? You betcha. Anyone in their right mind can see clearly that AA is a cult religion and therefore is a breach of the Establishment Clause of your first amendment rights — that is, as the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." What's not at issue in these cases is the question of whether AA is, in fact, religion-based. All litigants typically agree that it is, and the courts are unpersuaded by the idea that it's "spiritual" and not religious.

Technically, mandating people to AA is not illegal in any state... yet. It can be fought if you have the money and the time, which few have who find themselves in situations of this kind. Even if the court or probation department cannot mandate AA attendance as a condition of parole, secondary establishments such as the DMV can. As part of the court sentence, there can be a stipulation that you must complete classes at the DMV. These classes require attendance at AA. This is a loophole commonly used by judges and parole officers. The way things stand now, the most dangerous people are mandated to AA, while the most vulnerable people attend out of a desire for help. Neither party is getting what they deserve. Please see the links below for the AA Guidelines on cooperating with the courts. As you can see, AA tells members to avoid criticizing the program but to actively sell the AA way of life to incarcerated people.


Is AA complicit is harboring the criminal past of it's members? There is no doubt. AA actively recruits new members from courts and prisons (see link above from AA's actual guidelines publications). Do not think for one second that Karla's case is an isolated incident. Nothing could be further from the truth. AA does not want the publicity lest the truth be revealed. Why? Because if the general public knew the truth, AA would turn into the fringe cult for desperate religious fanatics which it is destined to become. Also, if the truth came out, all would see that AA does not work. AA simply hides behind "anonymity" to protect the revelation of the truth. Like any good cult, it has covered it's tracks to perpetuate survival. AA is not about helping the alcoholic recover. No, AA is about helping AA stay in power, in spite of all the inherent dangers. The indoctrination is indeed powerful.

I did not always think this way, after all I was trained at the Hazelden Graduate School for Addiction Studies, the mothership of all 12 step based recovery. Since 95% of rehabilitation facilities are in bed with the 12 steps, it is difficult to get training other than in the steps. My transformation happened slowly and was sealed after writing an article for the Huffington Post (link below). I was astounded at the anger and vitriol exhibited in the over 800 comments on my article. The fact that the indoctrination is so strong to bring someone (many in fact) to the brink of threatening me and others who criticize their beloved program, is enough to reveal their brainwashing. Even those who have been in the program for years and years and do not even attend meetings any longer will still claim that it is "spiritual, not religious," along with all the other dangerous dogma. The number of stories I have heard of "13th stepping" and of abuses of power financially, emotionally and physically, are truly mind-boggling.


So now you know — convicted criminals are routinely mandated to attend 12 step meetings as a condition of their parole. Jarloslava said to me while sitting in her lovely kitchen, "I have no reason to live anymore. My only reason to get out of bed in the morning is my attempt to get justice for Karla. My joy is gone." They are completely lost and are grieving a loss of incomprehensible magnitude. The worst nightmare of a parent has come to pass for them.

What makes matters even worse is that they are rightfully suing AAWS (Alcoholics Anonymous World Services), but are having a very difficult time finding the proper representation. There are convicts sitting next to our daughters in AA meetings, the Mendez's have a strong wrongful death case against AAWS and yet, Earle has more rights and protection in jail than Jaroslava and Hector have in their attempt to get justice for Karla. This lovely American couple is looking to our justice system for the help they deserve. Thus far, we are failing them. There is no excuse for allowing the dangerous practices of AA to continue. Exposing the truth is the only solution.

The beginning of the truth rests in finding true justice for Karla Brada.

{For secular help please refer to the link below for the many safe and secular alternatives available.}


Hello Laura,

Thanks for information. That tragic and appalling story really is a spectacular example of the kind of bad "help" that people can get in "the rooms" of A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Therefore we [AA] have the full benefits of the murderous
**     political dictatorships of today but none of their liabilities.
**     Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, pages 105—106.
**     The full benefits of murderous dictatorships?
**     What benefits? Benefits for whom?
**     And what liabilities of murderous dictatorships does
**     Alcoholics Anonymous not have?

2013.01.24: I just got a tip that there is a hot and heavy debate going on over at the Psychology Today web site:


So I had to leave a comment:

Submitted by Orange on January 24, 2013 - 3:35pm.

Hello Jock,
I just became aware of your post.

I see that back in August of 2010 you sent me four faked, biased "studies" that claimed that the A.A. cult religion works great as medical treatment, and challenged me to refute them. I did. I both posted the letter on my web site and emailed you back the web page. I don't know why you didn't see it.

There is a named anchor that points right to your letter:

That web page also contains the criticism of Margaret Hamilton's propaganda that sells 12-Step religion as a quack cure for addictions. Readers can read it and judge for themselves.

You complained:

Curiously AO changed the address in my email signature from "ST KILDA VIC" to "ST KILDA VIC Canada". God knows why?

The "why" is so that people would know what the heck VIC meant, and where you were writing from. Few Americans will recognize that as a code for part of Canada.

You complained about me criticizing the faked "studies" of Moos and Humphries. Well, I'm not the only one. The International Journal of Mental Health and Addiction also analyzed the so-called "test" of A.A. versus CBT at the Palo-Alto Veterans' Center, and they found that the Humpheys-Moos study was invalid, erroneous, badly done, and downright deceptive and faked. They concluded that A.A. did more harm than good, and responsible health care professionals should not refer clients to A.A.

Look here for more information about that:

With 20-20 hindsight, after I had time to read Jock_M's post at length, I realized that he is probably in Australia, not Canada. And it was 5 faked papers, not 4. My goof. Oh well, if that's the biggest mistake that I make in the web site, then I'm doing great.

June 10, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Mama Mallard Duck and ducklings
Mama Mallard Duck and ducklings

Wild birds and wood
Wild birds and wood

Wild birds and wood
Wild birds and wood

Mallard Ducks
Mallard Ducks

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#Michael_D ]

Date: Sun, January 20, 2013 6:29 pm     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: "Micheal D."
Subject: Celebrate Recovery- Just another AA spinoff

First, I would really like to commend you for all you have done to expose the 12step cult for what it is and the damage it does to people, Its a real tragedy that its tentacles have spread so wide not just in the US, but world wide as well. I was involved off and on for many years and saw a lot of creepy shit go down and always felt uneasy about it all. I worked the Steps twice only to relapse, and just going to meetings made me want to drink or use, I have seen many mention this and My personal belief is there are powers of Spiritual darkness behind it all. There are a few good people in AA/NA, but the majority are very twisted people in one way or another, It's a breeding ground for sociopaths as far as I'm concerned, a direct result of its teachings. I can also spot a Stepper very quickly, just from their demeanor and what they say as well also. Your site blew it all away and you have my thanks.

I went to SOS and studied Peele's books, and got things right more or less. My story is long so I'll leave it at that..

A word about Celebrate Recovery/Saddleback... I have been going to CR meetings lately. It's been a rough time recently and I want the support and SOS is kinda far from me. I'm not a Super devout Christian, but a Christian I am (even tho I can act the devil sometimes ;) and over the years have studied a LOT about Church History, Doctrine, and of course Scripture, CR is just 12step ideology couched in Christian terms, Apparantly John Baker, unhappy with Steppers undisguised hatred and contempt of Christians (well DUH Baker, Its a false gospel/cult, thats why) rather than creating a TRULY Christian based program basically took AA's heretical teachings, and transferred them to the Church, via the influence of Rick Warren amoung Evangelical churches. Even cravenly paraphrasing and twisting Scripture to fit AA dogma/slogans. A good analysis from a Christian perspective is here

The author expresses his concern as well that AA adherants will take over CR groups, and that is exactly the case in most of the local CR groups where I live, as I said I can spot them about 10 sec. after they open their slogan-spewing mouths. They may claim to be Christians, that's not for me to judge ultimately, but they have embraced a BIG lie, and ultimately bad teachings are damaging in the long run whether one is a Christian or not.

The concept of "Codependency" is a prime example of this, I have seen this turn women into heartless, domineering, disrespectful pigs, with no regard or respect for the men in their life, and mentally castrated hubby goes right along with it.... This comes from AA and nowhere else, truly a poisonous concept that just about every woman in CR claims to be.

I'm making a stronger effort to get to SOS, I have found more REAL tolerance and respect for different recovery paths amoung the mostly Atheists/ Agnostics there than the arrogant swine at 12step groups, and I'm sick of hearing AA dogma and slogans in a supposedly "Christian" setting.

Anyway, thanks again for all the painstaking research and getting this Info to the larger public, your site has really put a bug up the collective butt of steppers and shown many the light, for this you are to be commended. And oh yeah, I'd like to ask you not to post my last name or E-address if you can, I don't put anything past these creeps based on my experience... BLESSINGS !

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. I have to agree with you. I wrote a whole file about how A.A. religious teachings are heretical, here:

I also find that there is some real darkness in A.A. and its 12-Step brethren. I joke about A.A. being like selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety, but it isn't entirely a joke. It's kinda like "kidding on the square". There is something very wrong with a "spiritual program" where people promise to hide the truth and deceive the newcomers and only dole out the truth by "teaspoons, not buckets."

About spotting a Stepper very quickly: Yes, and they can spot us too, by how we don't sling the slogans and parrot the dogma right. Nearly 12 years ago, when I went to an A.A. meeting to pick up my 6-month coin, I shared about how good it felt to be healthy and recovering, especially since I had quit both alcohol and tobacco together, so I had six months of healthy recovery from both. I got subtle frowns because my sharing wasn't negative enough, and I didn't confess and wallow in guilt and talk about how stupid and selfish I was. One of the oldtimers attached himself to me, and after the meeting, we stood in the parking lot while he blew smoke in my face as he chain-smoked and tried to recruit me as one of his sponsees. He knew right away that I didn't have a sponsor, and wasn't "working the Steps" right, just from how I talked, because I wasn't negative enough, and I didn't parrot slogans, and I didn't give all of the credit for my sobriety to A.A. Oh yes, he knew. Then he described how he made his sponsees work the Steps: "We don't waste any time on Steps 1 through 3. I get them started on Step 4 right away." Oh yeh, get them busy making lists of what is wrong with themselves right away. That is dark. Fortunately, I had the good sense to pass on his invitation.

I agree that the concept of "Codependency" is some strange kind of insanity. You become infected with a "spiritual disease" from living with an alcoholic, and that makes you into a bad person, and the only cure is to join a cult religion and constantly confess your sins? Nuts. I discussed that in the file on Snake Oil:

And the way that Al-Anon puts women down and labels them oppressive bitches is really over the top. There are some examples of that here:

I have commented a few times that I think that Rick Warren is making a big mistake when he imagines that he can adapt the 12 Steps and make them into a Christian program. The 12 Steps and all of the A.A. practices and theology in the Big Book are merely Dr. Frank Buchman's heretical occult religion, dressed up in a different suit of clothes.

As William Playfair asked, if the 12 Steps are based on the Bible, why is it necessary to change and adapt them to make them compatible with a Christian program?

Dr. Frank Buchman took just one line out of the Book of James and twisted it into justifying a confessional cult religion where people regularly go to meetings and publicly confess all of their worst sins:

"Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
James 5:16

Notice that James did not say that the confessions should be a big public ceremony where everybody hears everybody else's dirty laundry. The line actually says, "one to another", not one to a crowd. "One to another", like someone confessing to a person whom he has harmed.

The early Christian Church quickly learned that public confessions were a big mistake — they just educated the children in what to do for some kinky fun, and explicit sexual confessions were offensive and embarrassing to the older people. It was sort of like go to church and get your dose of pornography for the week.

And then there is the problem of people becoming jaded from hearing about sins all of the time. They begin thinking, "Everybody is doing it, so it's no big deal..." And then people took pride in their sins: "My sins were much bigger and more outrageous than your wimpy-ass little sins." So the Church banned public confessions, and declared that confessions must be made to the priest in private.

Then, 1700 years later, Frank Buchman came along and revived the mistake.

In addition, Dr. Frank Buchman didn't even have one line from the Bible that justified conducting séances — which he called "Quiet Times". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can hear the Voice of God or Jesus and get instructions and answers and work orders and power from On High if you just sit quietly and listen. Quite the opposite. When the Pharisees demanded that Jesus show them a miracle, and demanded to see signs from Heaven, Jesus called them evil. As a contemporary journalist, Marjorie Harrison, wrote: "Dr. Buchman has no authority whatever for his doctrine of direct guidance available at any moment."

In addition, Frank Buchman's followers, including Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, also claimed to be contacting other spirits and ghosts and even demons, for entertainment. The Old Testament declares that mediums who channel spirits and communicate with the dead must be put to death. So much for A.A. Step 11.

I've also noticed that you will have far better luck getting the truth out of the atheists than out of the true believers. Funny how that works.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Just because people say that they are working for a good cause
**     does not make them good people. Remember that both the Nazis
**     and the Communists were "working for good causes."
**     So was the Medieval Catholic Church that burned girls and men
**     to death at the stake for "witchcraft" and "heresy",
**     while the Pope sold indulgences and Bishops' offices.
**     And they all still claimed that they were trying to get people
**     into Heaven — their kind of heaven, some kind of heaven, a
**     "Worker's Paradise", or a "Third Reich", or a "Celestial Kingdom".

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Last updated 22 March 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html