Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXXI

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Lorraine ]

Date: Thu, October 25, 2012 8:52 am     (Answered 17 November 2012)
From: "Lorraine W."
Subject: Verrrry Enlightening — Thank You!

Hello, Orange!

I've been on your site a few times, and recently read — with great interest — your article entitled "What's Not Good About AA".

WOW. Talk about validating a previous poisonous experience with this very damaging culture.

Do you have 5 minutes on the phone one day, by chance? I would love to exchange a couple of thoughts with you.

(I don't drink, by the way. I live a pretty good life without alcohol.)

And thank you, again!

Lorraine :-)

Hi Lorraine,

Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. I'm sorry to hear about your poisonous experience, but glad to hear that you are out of it now.

Alas, I don't have a telephone. I got massively ripped off by both T-Mobile and Qwest, so I just don't give any money to phone companies any more.

But we can communicate by email.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Although easily mistaken for candy, holly is quite poisonous."
**  "Although easily mistaken for real moral religions,
**          cults are quite poisonous."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Paul_S ]

Date: Sat, October 27, 2012 1:51 pm     (Answered 17 November 2012)
From: "paul s."
Subject: Good read

Hi,I have been to AA several times and have thought most of which I have just read in your artical(although I just scanned the last part,but still got the message) AA doeasn't work for me,but something has to pretty soon as I am going to lose everything again.It's sad and pathetic I know but I would like to ask your advise as to where should I go to sort out this problem? It is really bad at the moment and growing daily.Many thanks.Paul S.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the question. I just answered the same question a few letters back, so I'll point you to it here:

This section of the main menu page also lists other information and better possibilities:

An Alternate View On Recovery:

It sounds like you are about ready to quit, so I wish you well.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
**     ==  Yoda ("The Empire Strikes Back")

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Laura_T ]

Date: Sun, October 28, 2012 4:58 pm     (Answered 17 November 2012)
From: "Laura T."
Subject: Hey Terry!


Laura T. here.

I am looking for information on how AA keeps the media from reporting on all the recruiting they do and how felons end up in AA through active recruiting. I seem to remember reading that AAWS sends out letters to media outlets thanking them for helping them to maintain their 'anonymity' tradition. I have been looking for research on this...do you have any leads?

Thank you. Hope you are well.


Date: Sun, October 28, 2012 5:29 pm     (Answered 17 November 2012)
From: "Laura T."
Subject: nevermind...

Found it...right on AA's website. Lovely


Hi Laura,

Yes. Isn't it interesting how they twist around the meaning of the word "anonymity"? When a criminal's arrest is reported in the news, we aren't supposed to also mention the fact that he is a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, or Narcotics Anonymous, for reasons of "anonymity", which is not what the word "anonymity" means at all.

A.A. just doesn't want any negative publicity.

There is more documentation on the coercive recruiting and info on the fake anonymity here:

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The one means that wins the easiest victory over reason:
**     terror and force.
**       ==  Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (1924), 1.2.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Steve_S ]

Date: Mon, October 29, 2012 1:13 pm     (Answered 17 November 2012)
From: "Steve Snyder"
Subject: [LifeRing Secular Recovery] Even "moderate" drinking, on a regular enough...
To: "LifeRing Secular Recovery" <[email protected]>

Steve Snyder posted in LifeRing Secular Recovery

Even "moderate" drinking, on a regular enough basis, can be damaging:
http://www.facebook.com/l/iAQG5x3D0AQHtT55B23WVNtwVgJDADEtVcyzAz_j2LmgvHA/ www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/10/study-even-moderate-drinking-impairs- brain-cell-formation/264129/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/10/study-even-moderate-drinking- impairs-brain-cell-formation/264129/ ]

Study: Even 'Moderate' Drinking Impairs Brain Cell Formation
Blood alcohol levels of .08 are enough to affect the brain's plasticity.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the post. I can believe it. I noticed that even a few drinks could leave me feeling a little fuzzy and foggy the next morning. And it took years of sobriety to really get back the mental sharpness and clarity. It's entirely possible that it takes months to recover from one single binge. Alcohol is really poisonous.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Drunkenness is the vice of a good constitution, or a bad memory;
**    of a constitution so treacherously good, that it never bends till
**    it breaks, or of a memory that recollects the pleasures of getting
**    intoxicated, but forgets the pains of getting sober.
**       ==  Charles Caleb Colton (1780—1832), English writer and clergyman

[The previous letter from Brian_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Brain_B ]

Date: Mon, October 29, 2012 7:57 pm     (Answered 19 November 2012)
From: "Brian B."
Subject: Re: papers

Maybe I'm obtuse. I have looked at your web site with the link below. I just don't understand. Probably because I am in AA and believe the "message" but am blinded as to the cult and religion aspects. So I guess I am a damaged individual.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Have a good day, too. Congratulations on your 13(?) years clean now.


Hi again, Brian,

Actually, it's 12 years. But give me another year, and I'll get there.

Now you are saying that you don't see the cultish aspects of A.A. Well, that's changing the subject. In your previous letter, you asked why I do the web site, so I told you. How A.A. is a cult religion is a totally different question, and the answers are in other files. That's why you don't see the information about the cultish nature of A.A. in those links.

Here are the answers to your new question:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The "spiritual, not religious" thing is just an ego game of
**     spiritual one-upmanship that says, "I may be a superstitious
**     fool, but I'm not as crazy as the ones who go to church."

[The next letter from Brian_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#John_L ]

Date: Tue, October 30, 2012 11:55 am     (Answered 19 November 2012)
Subject: LSD thereapist describes Bill Wilson on LSD (1957)
From: "John L."


This is probably old news to you, but I read Remembrances of LSD Therapy Past, by Betty Eisner, one of the early LSD therapist/researchers, not sure what to call her — especially since she ate plenty of psychedelics her own self.

Anyway, some interesting stuff about AA and Bill Wilson and Tom Powers. Page 27 of Eisner's online book...and plenty of other interesting pages.



Hello John,

Thanks for the link and the reference. That adds a few more details that I didn't know. And yes, it is a fascinating subject.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The fact that some people believe nonsense does not make it true or good.

June 03, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 5, coming to get some munchies.
You can tell by the hungry, expectant look in the childrens' eyes that they know the routine.

Bald Eagle
A Bald Eagle

Canada Goose goslings
Gus and wife with 2 kids
Somehow, Gus lost three children. Ouch.

A black bird, watching me putting out some rolled oats.
They know the routine too, and fly to me, and watch and wait for me to pour out some oats and leave, and then they swoop in for lunch. I don't know what this bird is. It's a "black bird", but it's not a Blackbird. Blackbirds are black all over, and have black beaks too. This thing obviously has a yellow-orange beak, and a reddish-brown belly. And its head is a different color from its body.

LATER: When I look in bird books, this almost looks like a Catbird. Almost, but not quite. It matches a Gray Catbird except for three things: A Gray Catbird has reddish-brown undertail coverlets only — a Gray Catbird has gray, not reddish-brown, feathers on its chest and belly, and the beak is dark, not orange. And a Catbird has a long tail, and this thing has a short tail. So this bird is a mystery.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Yolanda_G is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Yolanda_G ]

Date: Tue, October 30, 2012 4:15 pm     (Answered 19 November 2012)
From: "yolanda g."
Subject: My husband left AA

Hi Orange,

I wrote to you about 2 years ago when my husband was going to AA groups for his drinking, it got to the point where he said enough is enough, they had him washing floors, washing dishes, working at the main sponsors taco truck for free with all the other alcoholics as they name them, they had to work there as a "service to the group" on weekends until 2 a.m. for helping them, they had to raise their hand when the main sponsor would say "who is willing?" eveyone had to raise their hand or they would punish them by not giving them time to talk on the tribune for up to 3 weeks and the person in charge of the tribune would get a little paper with the person's name on it.

But what got my husband to stop going to those ridiculous meetings was a night when they had to stay over after the meeting the main sponsor said there was going to be some more teaching of the book after the normal meeting, to make things short, it turned out that they started showing a video of a new 18 year old girl that had just came in to the group and they said she was going to be one of the sponsor's girlfriend "the sponsor is 38 years old" , and she said she loved him and my husband just got up and left.

He hasn't returned since then, because I talked to him about your site and told him to look at everything they were doing was wrong, he was coming home around 12 or 1 in the morning every night just helping the group do different errands I hardly saw him. Every time I went to an event they had, I felt as though I was ignored by them and they didn't really want me there. I am glad that my husband is no longer there and it is a cult, they do everything you talk about in your articles and even worse things. I can go on and on. Horror stories.


Hello again, Yolanda,

Thanks for the letter. I'm so happy to hear that your husband is out of there. Your last letter was sounding pretty grim, the way that he had gotten sucked into the cult so deep. But he had that magic moment of awakening — the exploitation of the teenage girl was finally too much for him. And once the light bulb goes on in your head, and you see, it's all over.

So my congratulations to him. And to you too, for hanging in there and toughing it out through the bad times.

I'm also adding this letter to the list of A.A. horror stories. And if you have more horror stories that you wish to report, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Incidentally, if he is shopping for a new support group or method or something, there are a bunch of suggestions linked to in this letter: How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day now, and a good life. Suddenly, the odds look so much better.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Heard on TV: "This is what I watch to escape."
**     I don't want to escape. I want to change my reality
**     so that no escape is necessary, or even desired.
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Mark_K ]

Date: Tue, October 30, 2012 9:31 pm     (Answered 19 November 2012)
From: "Mark K."
Subject: Working the Steps but resistant

I have been in AA for 7 months and I am trying to understand powerlessness. I understand and know about this. My name is Mark and I am an alcoholic. Hope to hear from you

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the question. The simple truth about powerlessness is that you are not powerless. Period.

The whole "powerless" doctrine is just a scam that Dr. Frank Buchman used. Dr. Buchman set up a cult religion in the nineteen-twenties that was called "First Century Christian Fellowship", and then "The Oxford Group", and then "Moral Re-Armament". Buchman declared that you have been defeated by sin, and are powerless over it, and only "surrender to God" — really, surrender to Frank — would save you from Hell. All of the jabber about how you are powerless was just a trick to recruit new cult members.

The three founders of Alcoholics Anonymous — William G. Wilson, Dr. Robert H. Smith, and Clarence Snyder — all joined Buchman's Oxford Group cult, and they got their cult religion training there. Bill Wilson just changed one word in Dr. Buchman's crazy teachings — Bill substituted the word "alcohol" for "sin". So Bill declared that you are powerless over alcohol, and have been defeated by it, and only joining Bill's cult will save you from Hell.

The simple truth of the matter is that we are not powerless. Millions of alcoholics and drug addicts just suddenly quit their habits one day, when the pain of continuing a bad habit gets to be too much. Look here.

I talked a lot more about the hoax of powerlessness in this file: Powerless Over Alcohol.

I also talked about will power and not being powerless here: How did you get to where you are? Incidentally, I wrote that letter when I had my tenth anniversary off of alcohol, after I quit drinking alcohol, and stayed quit without A.A., for 10 years. I wasn't powerless.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If we did all the things we were capable of...
**       we would literally astonish ourselves.
**          ==  Thomas Edison

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Wed, October 31, 2012 4:26 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Addiction Beat: Learning From the Red Cross


Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Christopher_S ]

Date: Thu, November 1, 2012 9:34 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Christopher S."
Subject: WOW

I just found your site. You have spent a lot of time on this. Have you considered therapy?

Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life. You give no credit to those who are part of the program. I know Bill Wilson was a jackass, in fact, I am a jackass, but a sober one because of Alcoholics Anonymous.
*Chris *

Hello Christopher,

Thanks for the letter. Nice sarcasm there. You think I need therapy for telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous? How about therapy for the people who are members of A.A.?

You imagine that A.A. saved your life. That is the usual confusion of causation with correlation. The truth is that you saved your own life, if you quit drinking. The fact that you also went to some meetings of a cult does not mean that the cult saved your life.

I give plenty of credit to A.A. members — both ways. For the good people who are really out to help newcomers, there is the Newcomers Rescue League. For the bad people, there is the list of A.A. horror stories.

Another A.A. horror story just came in. You should read it, here, and see what other people have experienced in A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's
**      clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
**        ==  Matthew 7:15

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Helen_T ]

Date: Fri, November 2, 2012 10:39 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "helen t."
Subject: Interview, PLEASE READ

Hi, My name is Helen T., hope you are well. I am currently studying at University, and I am doing my dissertation on: 'Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Religious Cult?' and I would to get your opinion on this question. And why you think it is.

I was just wondering, are you an alcoholic yourself? How come you know so much on the topic? I've been reading your pieces — they're great. I'd love to know how you know so much! Thanks for all your help. It would be fantastic to get the opinion of someone as passionate as yourself on the topic!

Thank you. Kind Regards
Helen T.

Hello Helen,

Thanks for the question. And the answer is simple: Of course A.A. is a cult.

See the Cult Test:

Note that you can go back and forth between the questions and the answers by clicking on the number of the question or answer.

Also see the following files:

Oh, and the bibliography is a rich list of references: the bibliography.

Yes, I am, or was, an alcoholic, by at least one definition. But watch out for the definitions. (See below.) Here is the list of autobiographical information:

  1. the introduction, my introduction to A.A.
  2. the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick
  3. another friend goes missing
  4. who are you
  5. who are you, again
  6. A biography written for SOS
  7. How did you get to where you are?
  8. really an alcoholic...
  9. definitions of "an alcoholic"
  10. the story about "Rat Park"
  11. history of the Orange Papers, and
  12. creation of the web site
  13. censorship, the Orange Papers censored and erased by Yahoo Geocities
  14. the "Orange" name.
  15. There are some recent pictures of me and my little friends here and here and here.

Have a good day now, and good luck with your project.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     You can't lie your way into Paradise.

June 03, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

A Nutria, swimming

That Nutria, drying off on an island.

Here, you can see that a Nutria is just like a beaver with a rat tail, rather than a flat tail.

Nutria swimming away. Time to go someplace else.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Sat, November 3, 2012 11:47 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Another Bullshit Comment from the Peanut Gallery

Happy belated anniversary! Although I guess your cigarette anniversary is somewhere around now, so not that belated.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Yes, the cigarette anniversary was last week. Twelve years without a cigarette. How sweet it is. The funny thing is, I caught a cold for the anniversary, so I could spend it coughing, just like in the bad old days. At least the coughing didn't taste of old tar and nicotine.

Anyhow, I voted. I'm not convinced my vote meant much, since all the electoral votes in this state are going to go to Romney. But at least I voted. Now to go find a nice, warm rock to crawl under until November 7. Maybe I'll go back under it if Romney wins.

Happily, no need for the rock. Obama played his cards very well indeed. He nailed it in the electoral college. No contest. But it does help if your opponent is a pathological liar. Funny that the Republicans couldn't come up with a better candidate than that.

I ended up picking up a Logitech G400 while I was in Best Buy getting my charger RMAed. It was considerably cheaper in-store than it was on Logitech's website. So far, I find it to be worth every penny. The easily-adjustable DPI is nice, as are the physical back/forward buttons for browsers. I wonder if I could map the latter to in-game functions without having to download the software. My only gripe is that the mouse isn't ambidextrous. I have a tendency to switch hands. But most gaming mice aren't ambidextrous.

Yeah, I've been using a wireless Logitech mouse with my laptop for about a year, since the touchpad was the first thing to fail. I've never had good luck with laptop touchpads, and I could never get used to them, anyway. The mouse feels great in my hand, and I haven't had any major problems with it. I just happen to prefer wired with desktops.

I also don't like touchpads. The touch is wrong. They are awkward and hard to use, and precise positioning is very difficult, nearly impossible. I always carry around one of my Logitech mice with the laptop.

I never would have thought of checking Goodwill. I'll make sure I stock up on mice and chargers next time I'm there, since I never get lucky when it comes to things I need right now.

Yes, Goodwill is just a matter of luck. Something good might be there, or might not, depending on the day of the week, the phase of the moon, and whether Jupiter is retrograde. Or something.

Actually, with newer Logitech mice and keyboards, there is something called a unifying receiver. They come with the slightly more expensive mice and keyboards, but you can get them separately on Amazon. Basically, you use software to pair the receiver with up to six different products. So, it can be a great replacement for missing receivers, and you can have a mouse and keyboard only take up one USB port. I'm not sure how well this stuff is supported in Linux, though. That, and I don't think this works with older products.

Interesting. I'll have to keep my eyes open for that.

You know, I remember when my family got a wireless mouse and keyboard for the family computer. The receiver was this big, ugly dome-shaped thing, and the battery life was pretty awful, especially with the mouse. Amazing how technology changes.


If I'm not mistaken, most of these TV doctors aren't actual medical doctors. Dr. Phil has a degree in marketing. Dr. Oz is a heart surgeon, which is an actual medical qualification, but he certainly goes well beyond his scope. I've seen one episode of Dr. Oz at somebody else's house. It was about dream interpretation. Pretty harmless as far as woo goes, but if my doctor started talking about that stuff during an appointment, I would demand my money back. Naturally, there was some weight loss woo, too. There's a lot of ratings and money in weight loss.

Yes, that's the hell of it. We have fake experts giving out advice on TV, and a lot of people don't realize how phony it is, or how bad the advice is. Having Dr. Phil lecturing the American people about recovery is some kind of a nightmare.

As I recall, Dr. Phil got his start when he was helping Oprah Winfrey to win a lawsuit over beef and hamburger in Texas. Oprah had done a show denouncing contaminated hamburger, saying that she would never eat that stuff again, and it turns out that Texas actually has a law against criticizing beef products, so she was sued by some beef producers. (I think such insanity is possible only in Texas...) Dr. Phil was a Texas psychologist who was doing something like market research and jury research, and the legal defense team employed Dr. Phil to analyze the potential jury members, to find the sympathetic ones and reject the hostile ones. When Oprah won the court case, she was very impressed with Dr. Phil's skill at reading and manipulating people, so she put him on her show. (I can't help but wonder whether he manipulated her, too.) And the rest is history. He ended up with his own show.

That still does not make Dr. Phil an expert on addictions.

There is a follow-up video on the deer crossing lady:

She's figured out how deer crossings actually work, and she seems to be taking the whole thing rather well. She strikes me as more of an otherwise intelligent woman who had a really stupid moment, rather than somebody completely stupid. There's far worse out there in the voting pool. Still pretty damn funny, though.

Ah, interesting. So she wised up, huh? Good. The voting pool is another matter. This time around, we lucked out and avoided disaster. Still, I'm appalled that a guy like Romney could get almost 50% of the vote. That is genuinely scary. What's with the American people? I'm still reminded of the newspaper headline in London after Bush got re-elected in 2004: "How could 58 million people be so stupid?" I forget the exact count this time, but it was similar. Millions fooled. I can hear W. C. Fields saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, and that's enough to make a decent living."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The Republican Party is a white elephant.

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Bill_T ]

Date: Sun, November 4, 2012 3:45 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Bill T."
Subject: Thank you

I want to thank you for your effort. What you have to say is very informative. I always knew that there was something fucked up wit the 12 step thing. I have seen just how bad it is. It is not about helping people. It is about keeping itself going. Even if that ruins peoples lives. I have seen it for myself. Keep up the good work.

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the letter and the thanks.

And you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. slogan: "Untreated alcoholism KILLS, with or without a drink."
**     What nonsense. How can "alcoholism" kill you if you don't drink alcohol?
**     How can you even have "alcoholism" if you don't drink alcohol?
**     And what treatment is there for "alcoholism", besides not drinking alcohol?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Indy_O ]

Date: Tue, November 6, 2012 5:01 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "indy o."
Subject: "AA & medication" ?


I hear that around 1990, the A.A. headquarters sent out a memo telling the sponsors to stop instructing the newcomers and sponsees not to take their doctor-prescribed medications. Does anyone have a copy of that?

Some A.A. members have denied that such a thing exists, on the grounds that "every group is independent", and the A.A. headquarters cannot tell the groups what to do. If that is true, then that is also bad, because no one will stop the bad behavior.

I saw a pamphlet about this topic medication, instructions to AA members. That was some years ago here in Iceland, English meeting ca let's say 1996. Don't remember its title exactly but "AA & medication"? Could be that I have it here, doubt it though (I hate AA lititure).

I remember this one especially, because this was a problem in AA, to many "Doctors". Especially one who was the "high-priest" of AA or something. I once talked against what he was saying at an AA meeting. He was being fanatical about this & saying the steps were the only solution, & I spoke up against this when my turn came, & I therefore earned his ever lasting displeasure & contempt. He never forgave me & somehow always seemed to talk down to me, & never greeted me back when & I greeted him. & this guy according to the AA's was one of the most if not THE most "spiritually advanced" members.

I'm telling you this because I "stole" that pamphlet ("AA & medication"?) & was showing it around. Then a little later being at an AA meeting this guy speaks up & suddenly he has changed his tune about medication & DENIED that he had ever been against medication! I was there when this happened, a witness at first hand: both saw it & heard it.

This guy was diagnosed as a manic/depression. (Don't know about the depression side of it, learned later that there are maniacs without the depression bit). He hid his mania behind all this 12 step talk. & he did a lot of sponsoring people & he CHARGED them for it, you heard me right, HE CHARGED PEOPLE FOR IT. He also wrote some books about alcoholism (in Icelandic), nothing new, just a collection of articles that he used without permission I think. If you've ever heard of him or hear of him his name was Palli Flug (Paul the flyer =pilot). He started his sobriety in the States & learned all of his 12 step trix there. He died a few years ago. Everybody in AA here was sad but me. I neither liked him nor disliked him, but he was elevated to a status in AA (he was more than a guru) & I didn't like that reverence. Like many other things in AA= IT BOILS DOWN TO THIS ONE WORD ALL THE TIME= HYPOCRICY !

I hope this helps some. If I should find it I'll let you know.


Hello again, Igor,

Thanks for the story. I'm adding this letter to the list of A.A. horror stories.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly."
**         == Big Book, Fwd to the 2nd Edition
**            [We don't have the only solution]
**     "For most cases, there is virtually no other solution."
**         == Big Book, page 43
**            [There is no other solution]
**     "...every A.A. group can manage its affairs exactly as it pleases..."
**         12&12, page 146
**            [Do what you want]
**     "...the group, exactly like the individual, must eventually conform..."
**         12&12, page 146
**            [Do what you're told]
**                  (Thank you, "Iamnotastatistic", for those.)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Indy_O2 ]

Date: Tue, November 6, 2012 6:53 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "indy o."
Subject: Mickey Bush + CDs + RADIO


I would like to get information about the new sub-sects of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the super-star leaders and tape sellers. They were described to me as:

    a.. Mickey Bush (A.A., N.A., C.A.) whose tapes and speeches are adding a cure-all aspect to the 12 steps;
    b.. Wayne B. (Emotional Recovery) This is a sub-sect within A.A., started by Mr B. & makes A.A.'s even more...

Orange you do know that there is a FM radio station (FM 88.5) operating here in Reykjavik, Iceland brodcasting Twelve step propaganda 24-7=365 days a year. Mickey Bush is one of the speakers. They got these speakers on CDs on a rotating basis (repeates after a certain time).

Also Mickey Bush & others have come here to Iceland with "12 step workshops". They record this shit & put it on the AA radio. I never been to see these fuckos myself though.


Wow. 24-7 propaganda. That's intense.

Date: Tue, November 6, 2012 9:45 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "indy o."
Subject: Fw: "AA & medication" ?

Here it is Orange

The A.A. Member-Medications & Other Drugs



*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In heaven they scorn to serve,
**     So now in hell they reign.
**         ==  John Fletcher, The Purple Land

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#James_C ]

Date: Thu, November 8, 2012 7:08 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "JAMES C."
Subject: Disillusioned with AA

Hi there. I just read your thing about AA. I agree with a lot of it. I'm sick of people spouting the same crap as an answer to everything. I want to grow as a person and AA isn't really the place to do it.


Sent from my iPad

Hello James,

Thanks for the letter. I couldn't agree more. And I guess I am disillusioned too. I started off thinking that A.A. was the biggest and best self-help group in the USA, and then I found out that it was really something else.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When you live in a world of illusion, you live in a world of
**     perpetual childishness.  You never grow up.
**        ==  Chris Hedges, "Death of the Liberal Class"

June 03, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Just some of the flowers at the wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A timid family of 5, fleeing. They are afraid of me, and won't stay around to get fed.

Canada Goose goslings
Tamer families, looking forwards to getting fed.

Canada Goose goslings
Gus and family, with his surviving two children.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Steven_I ]

Date: Fri, November 16, 2012 8:18 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "steven i."

I always feel so afraid when I read your website because it smashes any belief I've had in AA. But it also seems to burn through any disillusions I've carried in my head that I couldn't figure out on my own. I think your research can be both healing and damaging to someone like me that has been fragile for so many years. I think the point of your outrage is to really grow away from AA and be far more open to different opinions and treatment options that can benefit us all in a much more realistic way. I thank you for turning me onto SMART recovery. Unfortunately it is not in my town anymore, but I have been willing to try an online meeting. My first SMART meeting was like having a big thick veil of lies and religiosity lifted from my consciousness because that program is devoid of the gray murky fog that AA offers. And yes, I do agree that AA is guilt inducing because it constantly inculcates that we are at fault, and we are the problem ad infinitum. I appreciate all the work you've done. I still go to meetings and have at least met tolerant loving friends that believe in psych meds and psychotherapy. I'm lucky to know people in AA that don't 100% adhere to AA dogma. It wasn't always so in the beginning of my sober journey. I still to this day after seven years have people's strong proselytizing Big Book thumping personalities branded in my brain. It does create a strong sense of shame that leaves me deflated. That is not a good way to recover from addiction. I don't know what else to say. I just wanted to let you know that I feel the info you've provided can be both enlightening and dangerous for the fragile addict. I do agree though that more should be readily and widely available to the public. I hope SMART recovery returns to my community.

Hello Steven,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. It sounds like you are doing well. I'm glad to hear that you have gotten away from the people who were hurting you.

I also hope another SMART meeting will be established in your town.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Deceivers are the most dangerous members of society. —
**     They trifle with the best affections of our nature, and
**     violate the most sacred obligations.
**        ==  George Crabbe (1754—1832)

[The next letter from Steven_I is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html#Erik ]

Date: Sat, November 10, 2012 11:43 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: Erik
Subject: AA Article

Interesting article,

Except AA worked for me.
I got sober when I was 16,
I am now 21. I have almost 5 years in.
If it wasn't for AA I would be in a fucking
six foot deep pit. I was an alcoholic junkie.
I have never been arrested, institutionalized,
or placed in AA via systems.

AA worked for me, because I wanted it to.
I was ready to blow my brains all over my room.
Yes the failure rate is high,
and yes people are not capable of being honest.
If you don't work the steps and the program,
you might as well drink, don't waste your time.
At least you won't be a dry drunk.
It doesn't say be honest Abe. The program consists
of being honest to yourself. "Rarely have we seen a person.."
Is used if you follow the program, not do it your own way
and do it half assed.

AA is not a religious organization. If you choose to believe
in a higher power, great. Many people choose the word god.
It is a generic word buddy. Personally, I don't use it nor do
I truly believe in he/she/it.

Nice way to let someone read this article,
and maybe take away their only hope of getting sober. Tight,
thank you for that, I hope your point was proved.

Is AA hurting you directly? There are no outside contributions,
or affiliation, so you certainly don't pay for it.

If you seriously think AA is a conspiracy theory, you need help.
Seriously, seek professional help. Although, stupidity cannot be cured.
Sorry. God's special children? What the fuck? No money is given to AAWS or
from outside entities, because we don't want help. We are self-supporting.
it gives certain people a reason to complain about everything.

The court system puts people in AA, why they do that is beyond me.
Personally I don't want them there its wasting their time, its wasting my
People need to come to help themselves. We do not help them.
If they are forced to come, I promise they will fail.
You have a problem with that? Contact the court systems.
They put them in AA, not us.

You are a good writer, but you really need to think some shit out.
I am not insulting you, or anything of that nature. I am just saying
you are misinformed.

I don't expect a reply, if you do I will just delete it.

Thanks much,


PS: A. Orange; makes me think of Agent Orange killing Vietnam vets. Any correlation?

Hello Erik,

Thanks for the letter. You may not read this answer, but other people will. (And how can you end your letter with a question, after declaring that you won't read the answer?)

Your claims that A.A. saved your life are standard A.A. lines. That is very common confusion of causation with correlation. The truth is that you saved your own life by deciding to quit drinking, and then doing it. Congratulations.

As you said, A.A. has a very high failure rate. That's because A.A. does not work. A.A. does not make people quit drinking, or help them to quit, or keep them sober. Only those people who decide to quit, and then have the determination and will power to stay quit, succeed.

And then A.A. takes the credit for their work. And A.A. disavows any responsibility for those who did not quit. And then A.A. jabbers crazy nonsense about how you can't have any "self-will" or self-reliance, and you have to "surrender", and "turn it over", which makes it harder for people to succeed.

Of course A.A. is religious. The word "God", or references to "God", like "Him", appear in half of the 12 Steps. A.A. is just a dishonest religion that says that it isn't a religion. Lots of cult religions do that, including the Church of Scientology.

If you don't like the courts sentencing people to A.A., you should contact the A.A. headquarters and have them change their policy of "cooperating with the courts" in taking prisoners. Here is the official A.A. policy:

The name "Orange" comes from a joke about mixing apples and oranges. I'm very aware of the poison that Dow Chemical made, called Agent Orange, that was a mixture of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T herbicides, because I worked on the protest project to keep the leftover poison from being dumped into our waters. Look here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Whenever we seek to avoid the responsibility for our own
**     behavior, we do so by attempting to give that responsibility to some
**     other individual or organization or entity. But this means we then
**     give away our power to that entity."
**        ==  M. Scott Peck

More Letters

Previous Letters

Search the Orange Papers

Click Fruit for Menu

Last updated 28 May 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters331.html