Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXL



[The previous letter from Michael_W is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Michael_W ]

Date: Thu, January 17, 2013 12:39 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Michael W."
Subject: Re: AA

Orange I can speak only to my experience. The AA success rate for me is 100%.. I also read some other internet comments suggesting that you were once a problem drinker and sobered up on your own. Congrats to you!!!

There are people who conquer many things in life all by their self. I say that's great! After reading your comments, "facts", and statistics I think I'll just stay in the road I am on. I kinda like what I have and how and where I got it!

Best wishes for you!

Michael L. W.
770-xxx-xxxx

Hello again, Michael,

I could also say that the sobriety rate from me not attending cult religion meetings is also 100%, but I won't, because it's a misnomer. A RATE is something per something else, like miles per hour, or gallons per minute, or parts per million (ppm). The word "percent" means "per 100". So it is senseless to talk about the sobriety rate of one person. It will always be either zero or 100%. Either he is sober, or he isn't. Percentages only work when you are talking about groups.

Yes, I had a very bad problem with drinking and smoking. It nearly killed me. I just recently listed all of the autobiographical stories in this letter, and you can read all of the stories there:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters338.html#James_B

Oh, and thanks for the congratulations, and congratulations to you too.

You are quite welcome to stay on the road that you are on. I don't have a problem with that. If you are happy with your group, or your religion, so be it. What is bad is decieving newcomers and lying to them, like Bill Wilson did in the Big Book, "RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path."

Lying to sick people and telling them that A.A. is a great cure when it isn't, and he knew that it wasn't, is evil. And heartless. But that is what Bill Wilson was:

You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait.
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

That kind of contrasts with "Rarely fails", doesn't it? It also contrasts with the lies that he wrote in the Foreword to the Second Edition about 50% sobering up right away, and 25% more later.

Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Healing is a matter of time, but it is
**     sometimes also a matter of opportunity.
**       ==  Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Bill_D ]

Date: Thu, January 17, 2013 4:46 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
Subject: hello
From: "Bill D."

I have only copies of the cancelled checks used to pay back people back in the day,
early AA

I am in AA
Have been since Jan 1970.
First meeting took.

who are you?
Is your name Orange?

Bill D.
Midlothian Virginia

Hello Bill,

Those cancelled checks sound interesting. Could you scan them, or photograph them, and send the files? Thanks.

My name isn't really "Orange". That is just a pen name that came from a joke about mixing Apples and Oranges. You can read about the history of the "Orange" name here.

My birth name is Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know."
**     ==  from MERLE MILLER, Plain Speaking: An Oral Biography
**           of Harry S. Truman [1974], ch. 23


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Bill_D2 ]

Date: Sat, February 2, 2013 6:41 pm     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "Bill D."
Subject: hello = reply

Hi Terry,

Are you in AA and sober?

These are checks made out to pay people back who gave money to Wilson. He said he never took money, but he did.

We will never know how much he took.

And I was the one who actually went to the probate court, and copied both wills, Bill's and Lois's, which contains a lot of documents that no one knows about

Bill D.

Hello again, Bill,

Yes, I am sober — 12 years now, and not a drink or a cigarette, or a hit of drugs.

And no, I'm not in A.A. I haven't been to an A.A. meeting in well over 10 years.

Thanks for copying those documents. The truth will out. I'd love to see those checks — xeroxes, or computer scans, or pictures, or whatever. I'll put them on my web site.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Note that any- and everything that keeps you from appreciating
**     your spiritual source is an impediment. This particularly
**     includes relying on someone else or some organization without
**     examining the truths that they insist you believe.
**       ==  Dr. Wayne Dyer, Inspiration Perpetual Flip Calendar, 19 December





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Kenneth_A ]

Date: Fri, January 18, 2013 7:27 pm     (Answered 20 January 2013)
From: "Kenneth A."
Subject: [Orange Papers] Babylon Confidential

Kenneth A. posted in Orange Papers

Babylon Confidential
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/harm-reduction/2013/01/18/babylon-confidential

Our guest this evening is Claudia Christian who starred as Commander Susan Ivanova in the TV series Babylon 5. She is also the author of Babylon Confidential which tells the story of how she overcame her alcohol problem by using naltrexone and The Sinclair Method.

Orange Papers:
Sweet. Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I got the message too late to catch the show live, but we can download archives, which is a great feature of Blogtalk Radio.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Fri, January 18, 2013 4:43 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: Bob O.
Subject: Dear Abby

Mister T,

Thank you for all you do. "Newsday", a Long Island newspaper, reported on 1.18.2013 that "Dear Abby" advice columnist Pauline Phillips died (1918-2013). She had written "A bad habit never disappears miraculously; it's an undo-it-yourself project ". I believe that applies to alcohol-abuse. I have been sober and clean since 10.27.1980 minus Jesus and the 12 steps. I have also been reading and watching videos of Christopher Hitchens work with great interest and pleasure. I am sure you know his writings and wonder if you have, or have made, any comments on his work?

Peace and Love.
Long Island Bob O.

Hello Bob,

Yes, the passing of both Ann Landers and Abby is the end of an era. Abby didn't seem to be as devoted to A.A. as Ann Landers was. Abby's quote about bad habits seems right on.

Congratulations on your many years of freedom from both alcohol and cults.

I love Christopher Hitchens. It's fun to watch him tweak the noses of the true believers. Come to think of it, I need to check out some of his books from the library again. The last time I did, I couldn't finish them because they were so popular that other people put holds on them and yanked them away from me before I was done.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     And do you think that unto such as you
**     A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
**     God gave a secret, and denied it me?
**     Well, well — what matters it? Believe that too.
**        ==  The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
**            (Richard Le Gallienne translation)





June 11, 2012, Monday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Bald Eagle
That appears to be the father, just sitting in his favorite dead tree, and waiting, while his mate tends to her nest.

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings Eating Oats

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings Eating Some More Oats

Mallard Drake grooming his feathers
Mallard Drake grooming his feathers

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Tom_M ]

Date: Sat, January 26, 2013 7:17 am     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "Tom M."
Subject: Smashed — movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv48b4cpLCA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Not sure if you have heard about this movie, but it definitely has the whiff of cult-recruiting propaganda about it.

Hi Tom,

Yes, thanks for the link. Earlier, I was wondering if they had taken Koren Zailckas's book, Smashed; Story of a Drunken Girlhood and changed the story to insert A.A. into the plot. Koren wrote in her autobiographical story of staying smashed all through high school and college that she did not consider herself an alcoholic and never went to an A.A. meeting. She just drank while it was fun and then quit drinking when it got to be too expensive and messed with the life that she wanted.

This story appears to be completely different, and has nothing to do with Koren's biography. And yes, it sounds like cult recruiting — some more of the "attraction, not promotion" that A.A. does.

I wonder how they are getting away with stealing the name of Koren's book.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion"
**        ==  A.A. "Tradition" 11





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Taryn_S ]

Date: Fri, February 1, 2013 9:38 pm     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "Taryn S."
Subject: Sources

Hi there.

Recently I discovered that a person who was "helping" me, who had directed me to AA and was my self-proclaimed "spiritual adviser," had actually been using thought reform. He had also convinced me that he was a demonologist and empath who could read my thoughts, and that "a demon was on my path." I spent many months with my life being consumed, sleep- and food-deprived, as well as socially isolated. At first, I thought maybe he was just a nut, a psychopath, really believed what he was saying, perhaps. Now, I'm beginning to question AA itself, which led me to your site.

After being lied to and misled for so long, I want to be able to 1) recover my mental capacity for critical thinking and 2) learn more and decide for myself what I think. One thing that I feel would help me tremendously is knowing where information is coming from, so I was curious about whether or not you had a list of sources. I see you have a lot of documents posted, but are there links to where they were found or something along those lines? Please take no offense, I simply want to be sure that the information is credible and that I can cross-reference it.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Taryn

Hello Taryn,

Thanks for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about the nightmare that you have been going through, but I'm happy to hear that you are getting out of it.

Yes, I list all of my sources. The bibliography is rather long, and it lists both pro- and anti-A.A. books and articles. It actually starts with the A.A. "Big Book":
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-bibliography.html

And there are links back to the original articles whereever that is possible. Of course things that have not been posted on the Internet will not have links.

You can also see the links page for a zillion links to relevant things:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-links.html

Since you are interested in developing some critical thinking, may I recommend some non-cult recovery groups, like SMART or SOS or WFS? SMART in particular teaches just such thinking skills. Here is the list:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

Also, here is a web page which gives a good, very short, description of "brainwashing" and "thought reform" techniques, as described by Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, Prof. Margaret Thaler Singer, and Dr. Edgar H. Schein.
http://orange-papers.info/orange-cultinfo.html

There is also a section of the bibliography that specifically lists books on Mind Control, Brainwashing, Other Psychology, and Propaganda:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-bibliography.html#brainwashing

Have a good day, and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Every thinker puts some portion of an apparently
**     stable world at peril.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Liz ]

Date: Sat, February 2, 2013 10:27 am     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "SeedsOfSobriety.com"
Subject: Please add my non-12-step, daily sobriety book to your site

Hi Orange,

I am a longtime sober alcoholic and SOS member, also a friend of Jim Christopher. In fact, I talked to him last night and he gave me your email address. Please consider adding my book, Seeds Of Sobriety, to your Top 10 Reading List. I don't have any extra copies to be able to send you one right now, but you can find out more about it at http://www.seedsofsobriety.com. If you click on the cover you can see part of it. You can also see inside more at:

http://www.SeedsOfSobriety.com

If you add it to your site, I will gladly send you a signed copy if you want when I have more, but it will take awhile, because I have to pay for them, though at a discount, and order a minimum of five.

I lived in Portland in 1990 & 1991, and think I know about the treatment center you mentioned in your autobiography. I lived fairly near there, on SW Oak between 3rd & 4th. I used to go to an AA meeting on Burnside and I think some of the new people went to that center, because they mentioned getting acupuncture. I didn't really notice, though, what success rate they had in staying sober compared to those who didn't get acupuncture.

I find your site very interesting, and appreciate the tremendous amount of work that must have been involved!

Best wishes,
Liz Purcell

Hello Liz,

Thanks for the information. I wish you luck with your book. I'll give you a plug now, and add your book to the links page, but I really do have to read the book and like it before I can add it to the "Top 10" list. I'll see if the local library has it. (And sure, I wouldn't mind a signed copy eventually.)

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     For every good reason that there is to lie,
**     There is a better reason to tell the truth.
**       ==  Bo Bennett





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Cathy_S ]

Date: Wed, January 30, 2013 6:17 am     (Answered 4 January 2013)
From: "Cathy S."
Subject: Orange Paper site and AA articles...

Hello,

I do not know your name for it is not mentioned on your site but I have to tell you I stumbled upon your site and found your articles about AA/NA to be very eye opening, informative and frankly I agree with everything you had to say about how they make their money, cult-like characteristics hidden and kept secret as the motive behind getting people to stay only to fill their ego's and pockets.

I have a site as well and have recently wrote a book on how I feel recovery needs to be more and what made me leave AA. I am a recovering Alcoholic for 19 plus years and have even written articles on how I truly see AA. I was told by my publisher and by others when writing my book to be careful of what I say and how I share my opinions of AA because no one would be interested in my book or want to buy it. Seems like the cult got to them as well.

Anyways, I am glad to have found you and your words of truth and honesty and hope to hear more from you. Are you on Facebook? Twitter? Love to connect somehow.

Thanks,
Cathy

Hello Cathy,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. And congratulations for getting it together and staying sober.

Starting at the top, yes, I've printed my birth name on the web site a few times, here and there. It is Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon now.

About writing a book about recovery without A.A., coincidentally, the previous letter that I got is from another woman who wrote on the same subject, here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Liz

Apparently, the subject is a lot more popular than your publisher realizes. It seems like a whole lot of people are interested. Incidentally, the Orange Papers web site is getting 2.6 million hits per month now, so a lot of people are interested in the subject of recovery without A.A.

Tell me about your book and I'll give you a plug too.

I am on Facebook as "Orange.Papers". ("Orange" was already taken.) And a nice young woman started a Facebook group for me, and it is "Orange Papers" (without the period).

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We must think things, not words, or at least we must constantly
**     translate our words into the facts for which they stand, if we
**     are to keep the real and the true.
**       == Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
**          address, New York State Bar Association, Jan 17, 1889.





June 13, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The Younger Family of 6
The father is standing guard. Notice how he gets up on a log so that he has a better view.

Canada Goose goslings
The Younger Family of 6

Canada Goose goslings
The Younger Family of 6
The father is leading. The baby of the family is the fourth gosling in line.

Canada Goose goslings
Pondscape

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[The previous letter from Edy_R is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Edy_R ]

Date: Sat, February 2, 2013 7:50 pm     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "Edy R."
Subject: Re: Fallacy

Worked for me and my friends! Works for many people. It's perplexing as to why you obviously spend a majority of you time trying to poke holes in something. I will have a great day spending time with tons of recovering friends, life is good AND I don't have to spend time being so judgmental as you- so even better!!

Sent from Edy's phone

Hello again, Edy,

No, "IT" does not work. You said so. In your last letter, you said, "AA is NOT a treatment program, it's a self-help group..." Well, since A.A. isn't a treatment program, it cannot be due the credit for making people quit drinking. A.A. cannot be due the credit for "curing alcoholism". The people who help themselves are due the credit, not "IT" or "A.A.", or "The Steps", or "The Program".

When you see a few people quit drinking, you just assume that your favorite cult religion is due the credit. But you don't really know why those people quit drinking. They may have quit drinking because they secretly practice Voodoo and worship Damballah and Legbah and Bon Dieu as their "Higher Powers". Now that is a ridiculous example, of course, but you still don't know.

Even if they tell you that they quit because they practiced the occult practices of Frank Buchman's cult religion, that proves nothing except that they are gullible and confused.

The real reason why most people quit drinking is because the pain of drinking alcohol gets to be too much, and drinking gets to be too expensive (more in terms of life than of money), so they quit drinking and get a better lifestyle.

And of course, every time A.A. was tested in valid clinical tests, it was proven to be a failure. Even an extremely pro-A.A. doctor who was trying hard to prove that A.A. works — Dr. George Vaillant who went on to become a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous — proved that A.A. totally fails to make alcoholics quit drinking.

The only thing that works is people deciding to quit drinking, and then really doing it by using their own will power and self-reliance. Yes, that will power and self-reliance that Bill Wilson said you can't have any of.

So now you are going to go hang out with "tons" of friends? How much do your group members weigh?

The fact that you have a few sober friends does not prove that A.A. works. That is classic Confusion of Correlation and Causation.

And why don't you go hang out with some sober people who quit drinking without A.A.? There are 10 times as many sober people who quit drinking without A.A. as with. Well, the reason that you don't, and the reason that you won't, is that you want to hang out with people who will repeat your favorite superstitions back at you.

And actually, you are being judgemental. You automatically reject and ignore all evidence that contradicts your favorite cult religion beliefs. The name for that is "pre-judging", or "prejudice". And "contempt prior to investigation".

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     The predominantly AA-based culture of rehab in America has become one
**     of imposition and tautology:
**     If the program doesn't work for you, then you didn't work the program.
**     If you succeed in staying sober, then you did a good job working the
**     program; ergo, the program works.
**       ==  Sacha Z. Scoblic
**           http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112255/why-rehab-fails#


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Edy_R2 ]

Date: Tue, February 5, 2013 6:51 pm (Answered 8 February 2013)
From: "Edy R."
Subject: Re: Fallacy

You have so many misconceptions. its obvious that you have contempt prior to investigation. Do you even know what a "program" consists of? I bet not cause it has as much to do with the seen as the unseen. If AA is a cult, who is our charismatic leader? Bill W. is dead, by tradition, the cult dies when it's leader dies. What about NA, they don't follow the big book of AA. I participate in CA... I hang out with all kinds of people alcoholic or not, AA associated or not. Where do all the non-AA drinkers hang out? I'd love to meet them. I was a single mother of two who had been using for 15 years where else could I have found a group of friends that support me not continuing to live the life I lived and teach me how to live differently? Certainly not my addict parents. It's not a program out of any book per se, it a group of people who have experience in changing their lives and perspective. Miracles are not able to be documented by science. It's principles are common amongst every good hearted human being- only at one time I was not able to live by my own values and principles, today I do more often than not. It IS a program selfishness, setting boundaries and defending our sobriety at any cost. Then once we have some solution on how to live our lives within those common principles we GET to help others. Seeing others find a sober way of life brings me more joy than your bashing what works for some people. It's our choice and you have not answered my question of what you get out of bashing 12-steps? What concern is it of yours where other people find their answers? I would guess you had a parent who struggled with addiction that "ruined your life". OR you are the sort who has to defend you ongoing use and disfunction. Sounds grand. Better you than me.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello again Edy,

Thanks for the reply. Well, starting at the top:

  1. You have so many misconceptions. its obvious that you have contempt prior to investigation.

    Contempt prior to investigation? No, it's contempt AFTER investigation. Look at the bibliography for the Orange Papers, here:
    http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-bibliography.html

    You will see that the bibliography begins with all of the A.A. council-approved books that I've been able to get my hands on, and it's a lot of them. And the N.A. books are listed there too.

    So how many anti-A.A. or anti-N.A. or anti-12-Step books have you read? Have you spent the last 12 years studying the reports from doctors who tested the 12-Step programs to see whether they really work? Have you actually investigated at all?

    What you have is belief before investigation.

  2. Do you even know what a "program" consists of?

    Yes, I know what "the program" consists of. Try these pages:

  3. This is totally wrong:

    If AA is a cult, who is our charismatic leader? Bill W. is dead, by tradition, the cult dies when it's leader dies.

    Nonsense. Need I mention Scientology, the Hari Krishnas, the Moonies, and the Mormons? Their charismatic leaders died, and they are still in business. Even Jim Jones' People's Temple, and Heaven's Gate, and the Branch Davidians still have surviving churches and convinced true believers. Still, even now. Even after the mass suicides and all of the deaths, those idiots still worship their dead founders. Some people just never learn.

    Unfortunately, cults do not necessarily die out when the charismatic cult leader dies. Some do, and some don't. And A.A. didn't.

  4. This is more nonsense:

    What about NA, they don't follow the big book of AA. I participate in CA...

    The N.A. book, "How It Works", is just a clone of the A.A. "Big Book". You can put the two of them on the table side by side, and go through them chapter by chapter, and see that they say the same things in the same chapters. (I've done that.) The N.A. book just substitutes words like "drugs" and "addiction" for "alcohol" and "alcoholism". Both books sell the same crazy program of "God will save you if you confess enough and surrender."

  5. You said,

    I hang out with all kinds of people alcoholic or not, AA associated or not. Where do all the non-AA drinkers hang out? I'd love to meet them.

    It is good that you have a wide circle of friends. The non-A.A. non-drinkers are everywhere and anywhere. They don't have any one hang-out place like cult members do.

    Me, you will often find me at the wetlands feeding the geese, or at the public library, or at the supermarket or other stores, or at the farmers market, or just "around".

    Us non-cult non-drinkers do not have a clubhouse where we recite slogans at each other.

  6. About this:

    I was a single mother of two who had been using for 15 years where else could I have found a group of friends that support me not continuing to live the life I lived and teach me how to live differently? Certainly not my addict parents. It's not a program out of any book per se, it a group of people who have experience in changing their lives and perspective.

    Now you are talking about N.A. as a social club. The fact that you enjoy socializing with N.A. members does not prove or in any way indicate that the 12-Step program isn't a fraud and a cult religion and medical malpractice.

    And that says nothing about the actual recovery rate. What percentage of the newcomers pick up a glow-in-the-dark 1-year keytag? (I did. I've still got mine.)

    Congratulations for getting your life together and quitting your addictions, in spite of getting some bad advice and crazy religious nonsense.

  7. Sorry, but this is sheer bullshit:

    Miracles are not able to be documented by science.

    The A.A. and N.A. programs are not "miracles". They are hoaxes that fool the gullible.

    It is very, very easy to "scientifically" determine the success rate of A.A. and N.A.: Just count heads. See how many of the newcomers are clean and sober after 1 year. And see how many are still doping or in prison or dead.

    Then compare those numbers to the numbers that you get from examining a similar bunch of alcoholics and addicts who got no such "12-Step help". When that was done, the results were always that the 12-Step program does not get people clean and sober.

  8. This is more standard 12-Step cult dogma:

    It's principles are common amongst every good hearted human being- only at one time I was not able to live by my own values and principles, today I do more often than not.

    A.A. and N.A. have no "principles". They have cult religion practices like surrender to something, and confess your sins to your sponsor, and conduct a séance and imagine that you are "channeling" God. Those are not spiritual principles that are common to all good religions. They are superstitions and cult practices. Spiritual principles are things like,

    • Those shalt not lie.
    • Thou shalt not steal.
    • Thou shalt not commit adultery. (No 13th-Stepping.)
    • Thou shalt not commit murder.
    • Those shalt not deceive others in order to get them to join your religion.
    • Honesty is the best policy. (As opposed to, "Dole out the truth by teaspoons, not buckets.")

  9. This is a standard 12-Step cult slogan:

    It IS a program selfishness, setting boundaries and defending our sobriety at any cost.

    It's great that you refuse to take another hit of drugs, but refusing to see the truth or speak the truth is not "defending your sobriety". It is defending your illusions.

  10. Then you said,

    Then once we have some solution on how to live our lives within those common principles we GET to help others.

    Meaning, after you have been properly indoctrinated in the 12-Step cult religion, you go recruiting.

  11. You said,

    Seeing others find a sober way of life brings me more joy than your bashing what works for some people.

    I agree that it is wonderful to see people stop killing themselves and get healthy. So what is your success rate? How much does N.A. really help? Out of each 100 newcomers, how many get a glow-in-the-dark keytag a year later? No excuses are allowed, like "They didn't work the program right. They didn't try hard enough. They didn't surrender. They didn't keep coming back." Everybody counts. What is the real recovery rate when you count everybody?

  12. Then you asked,
    What concern is it of yours where other people find their answers?

    That's the problem: the 12-Step cult religion does not have any answers to offer. It does not work. It is a fraud and a hoax. Just another crazy cult religion. It hurts more people than it helps. It decieves people and makes recovery more difficult.

  13. Then you finished with the standard cultish ad hominem attack:

    I would guess you had a parent who struggled with addiction that "ruined your life". OR you are the sort who has to defend you ongoing use and disfunction. Sounds grand. Better you than me.

    Can you explain how me having an alcoholic father improves or worsens the A.A. and N.A. failure rates? If my father had been sober, would that make A.A. and N.A. work better now? Those things have nothing to do with each other. You are just trying to find some bad reason for someone saying some true things that you don't wish to hear.

    I'm happy to report that there is no "ongoing use and disfunction". I have 12 years clean and sober now. Not even a cigarette in 12 years. How are you doing there?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Since wishful thinkers, by definition, are allergic to arguments
**     against wishfulness, my book failed to make an impression.
**       ==  James H. Kunstler

[The next letter from Edy_R is here.]





[The previous letter from Mary_C is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Mary_C ]

Date: Sun, February 3, 2013 8:09 pm     (Answered 4 February 2013)
From: "Mary C."
Subject: Re: disappointment

You may actually prevent someone finding their solution to their substance abuse problem.

I don't have a problem with objectivity, I have a problem with someone printing and promoting information that is so polarized.

It has worked. For a number of people. It is a mental health disorder.

I object to the manner in which you "report" your information. It's negative and has the potential to cause harm.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello again, Mary,

Well, once again a Stepper claims that telling the truth about A.A. is "harming" alcoholics, and preventing them from "finding a solution". (Welcome to the list.)

A.A. does not work. You have not provided any evidence that A.A. works. Just pointing at a few people who quit drinking proves nothing. You don't know why they quit. For all you know, they may have quit drinking because they secretly worship Donald Duck as their "Higher Power".

When you say, "It has worked. For a number of people.", that is just an attempt at Proof by Testimonials, and Proof By Anecdote. That's like saying, "Joe Blow was sick as a dog until he drank three bottles of Dr. Bummer's Green Tree Snake Elixir, and he immediately got over the flu. So that Dr. Bummer really makes great medicine. It really works." As a registered nurse, you should know that the FDA rejects testimonials and anecdotes immediately. Such testimonials and anecdotal stories are just the uninformed opinions of some people with no medical training or experience or knowledge of how to properly perform clinical tests and separate causality from coincidence. Only Randomized Longitudinal Controlled Studies are acceptable to the FDA as evidence of efficacy.

In fact, you have ignored and dodged all questions about the effectiveness of A.A. as a treatment or a "solution" to the problem of alcohol abuse. You complained that I quote doctors' reports about how A.A. does not work. You have even ignored the words of a doctor and professor at your own University of Virginia.

Since A.A. does not work, and actually does more harm than good, my criticizing A.A. cannot possibly be preventing people from finding solutions to their substance-abuse problems.

Then you claimed that "It is a mental health disorder", without defining what "it" was. Your previous "it" referred to the A.A. program: "It has worked." Nevertheless, I understand what you mean, if you were referring to alcohol abuse and alcohol addiction. I have to agree that Alcohol Abuse and Alcohol Dependency are mental illnesses. Alcohol Abuse is mental illness number 305.00 in the DSM-IV, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association. And Alcohol Dependency is 303.90. Here is the relevant page:

DSM-IV page 195

In addition, many, if not most, cases of alcohol abuse are actually caused by underlying mental disorders like PTSD, or Bipolar Disorder, or Schizophrenia, or Asperger's Syndrome, or child abuse, or clinical depression. So when did you get trained and licensed to be a psychiatrist? How many of your fellow A.A. members and sponsors are trained and licensed to practice psychiatry? Aren't you and your fellow A.A. members guilty of practicing medicine without a license?

You arrogantly assume that you, a registered nurse, know more about medicine than half a dozen doctors, and you ignore and reject what they are saying, and insist that your cult has a better way. Didn't Bill Wilson say something about how you need your ego reduced? Where is that A.A. "humility"? What happened to "We realize we know only a little." (Big Book, page 164.)

Furthermore, medical law says that the patients must be fully informed so that they can give informed consent. Hiding the truth about "The Program" is unethical. I know that Bill Wilson taught that you should only dole out the truth about A.A. by "teaspoons, not buckets", but that is grossly unethical and just plain wrong. That is cultish Deceptive Recruiting.

You object to information that is "so polarized"? Nonsense. I'm just reporting the truth, something that you are trying very hard to avoid, like how you avoided all questions in the previous two letters.

You complained,

I object to the manner in which you "report" your information. It's negative and has the potential to cause harm.

Oh really? Well, can you tell me the "positive" way to explain to people that A.A. is lying to them and selling them an old fascist cult religion from the nineteen-thirties as a quack cure for alcohol and drug problems?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society.
**     If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test
**     people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance,
**     greed and love of power.
**       ==  P J O'Rourke


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#Mary_C2 ]

Date: Wed, February 6, 2013 4:15 am     (Answered 8 February 2013)
From: "Mary K C."
Subject: Re: disappointment

I am not a member of AA.

Sent from my iPhone

Hi again, Mary,

Now that is strange. Your second letter declared,

How you ask?

Because I have 6 years free from mind & mood altering substances and I have 12 step recovery to thank for my incredibly indescribable healthy life.

Or are you saying, in a roundabout way, that you are really a member of Narcotics Anonymous?

Same thing. Same Twelve-Steps, and the same goofy Buchmanite religion. Same quack cure for addictions, and the same failure rate.

Again, I see that you have not answered a single question that I asked in previous letters. You keep on asserting that the 12-Step religion works as a cure for drug and alcohol problems, but you won't supply a shred of real evidence to support that claim. And you refuse to answer the doctors who found that the 12-Step program does not work.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Jede Form von Süchtigkeit is von übel, gleichgültig,
**    ob es sich um Alkohol oder Morphium oder Idealismus handelt.
**    Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic
**    be alcohol or morphine or idealism.
**       ==  Carl Gustav Jung (1875—1961),
**            Erinnerungen, Träume, Gedanken (1962) ch. 12





June 13, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Dabblers Marsh

Bald Eagles
The pair of Bald Eagles

Bald Eagle
Bald Eagle
Don't those eagles have such a magnificent glare? They just sit in their tree and stare at you and radiate disapproval.

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html#William_N ]

Date: Wed, February 6, 2013 6:56 am     (Answered 8 February 2013)
From: "william N."
Subject: Jane Brody's column, NY Times re: addiction treatment

Hi Terry,

How are you? Hope you're having a great 2013.

So check out this article by Jane Brody, the long-time health-writer for the NY Times. It's what we've all been saying for years.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/effective-addiction-treatment/?src=me&ref=general

The entire article is great but I particularly love this paragraph:

"The Columbia report found that most addiction treatment providers are not medical professionals and are not equipped with the knowledge, skills or credentials needed to provide the full range of evidence-based services, including medication and psychosocial therapy. The authors suggested that such insufficient care could be considered 'a form of medical malpractice.' "

Wow...can you believe this? All those crazy sponsors....

Bill

Hello again, Bill,

Thanks for the link. Yes, that's good.

My reaction is, "Professional? Equipped with knowledge or skills?" You've got to be joking.

The fraud and quackery that is passed off as "treatment for addictions" is almost unbelievable. My so-called "counselor" at the Portland Alternative Addiction Center (PAAC) was a coke-snorting child-raper who yammered 12-Step slogans at us:

I am teachable today. I don't know if I will relapse tomorrow. Your addiction wants to kill you. You need a Higher Power in your recovery program. Go to at least three meetings a week and get a sponsor.

And to think that the Oregon Health Plan paid $1700 per person for alcoholics and addicts to get that "treatment program".

As you can imagine, that "treatment" had nearly a 100% failure rate. I'm the only one that I know of in my group (of between 100 and 200 people) who didn't relapse, and I'm the guy who quit drinking and drugging two weeks before the program started. And I quit because I decided that I didn't want to die that way, not because I was in a "treatment program".

And yes, it most assuredly is medical malpractice to foist that fraud on sick people.

This paragraph also rang a bell:

Often, Ms. Fletcher found, low-cost, publicly funded clinics have better-qualified therapists and better outcomes than the high-end residential centers typically used by celebrities like Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan. Indeed, their revolving-door experiences with treatment helped prompt Ms. Fletcher's exhaustive exploration in the first place.

Yes, those repeatedly-relapsing celebrities reveal that the 12-Step program doesn't really work at all. That's why Bill Wilson wanted everyone to be anonymous, especially the celebrities, and never publicly reveal their membership in A.A.:

"It would be harmful if the Fellowship promoted itself by publicizing, through the media of radio and TV, the sobriety of well-known public personalities who became members of AA. If these personalities happened to have slips, outsiders would think our movement is not strong and they might question the veracity of the miracle of the century."
Twenty-Four Hours a Day, "Compiled by a member of the Group at Daytona Beach, Florida", Hazelden Foundation; November 30.

The miracle of the century? Bill Wilson sure did have a high opinion of his quackery.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. quackery, straight from the horse's mouth:
**     "I have no doubt that a man who has cured himself of the lust for alcohol
**     has a far greater power for curing alcoholism than has a doctor."
**       ==  William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 320.





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Last updated 7 September 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters340.html