Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXXIX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Mary_K_C ]

Date: Mon, January 21, 2013 8:45 am     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: "Mary K C."
Subject: disappointment

Sometimes it's unfortunate that we have freedom of speech, press, etc.

This article https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-effectiveness.html should be banned.

Mary K. C. RN
Staffing Resource Office
ClairVia Support

Hello Mary,

I find it curious that a registered nurse objects to someone collecting information from doctors' reports about recovery from addictions. Why do you object to freedom of speech when someone is revealing how cult religion does not work as a medical treatment for addictions? How can a competent RN possibly object to criticism of harmful quackery?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Mary_C2 ]

Date: Tue, January 29, 2013 5:54 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Mary K C."
Subject: Re: disappointment

How you ask?

Because I have 6 years free from mind & mood altering substances and I have 12 step recovery to thank for my incredibly indescribable healthy life.

Hello again, Mary,

Actually, I didn't ask "how?" You did not mention your drinking or drugging before. I asked why a registered nurse objects to me collecting reports from real doctors doing valid clinical tests. I asked why a registered nurse would object to my criticism of quack medicine.

What you just demonstrated there is the propaganda technique of Answer A Question That Was Not Asked (To Avoid Answering One That Was Asked).

So I'll ask those questions again. Why do you object to me publicizing the results of real doctors' research? Why do you object to me exposing quackery, and wish that I didn't have freedom of speech?

(Of course I know why — you joined a cult religion that pushes 12 "Steps" as a panacea — but I still have to ask.)

Congratulations on quitting drinking and drugging. It is good that you got a grip and got your act together. Now your assumption that participation in a cult religion is the cause of your healthy life is groundless, of course:

Have a good day.

== Orange

P.S.: Another reader just suggested that you read an article by Dr. and Prof. Bankole A. Johnson, who currently serves as Alumni Professor and Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia. Look here.

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     How many diseases does modern medicine treat
**     with a "spiritual cure"?
**     If you get cancer, does the doctor tell you
**     to join the Pentecostals and speak in tongues?
**     If you get diabetes, is the fix to join the
**     Mormons and eat chocolate cakes?
**     So why, if you get "alcoholism", should you join
**     Alcoholics Anonymous and conduct seances to
**     hear the voice of God giving you work orders?

[The next letter from Mary_C is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Dave_N ]

Date: Wed, January 23, 2013 6:46 am     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: "Dave N."
Subject: Approval


I've been reading your blog about AA, I'm a member of AA and have been sober now sense 2008, I've read some of the comments and some of the people don't seem to be very open minded or well informed with AA. AA is not affiliated with any sect or denomination, If it hadn't been for AA and a leveling of my pride there's a good chance I would have drank myself to death.


Capt. David N.
cell: 691xxxxxxx
skype: czxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hello David,

Thanks for the note. I'm glad to hear that you got a grip and quit drinking. Congratulations on a job well done. You did it. Nobody did it for you. No cult saved you. Nobody holds your hand every Saturday night but you.

Some people are very well informed about what A.A. is. Of course A.A. is not affiliated with any other religion or sect. A.A. is affiliated with A.A., just like how Scientology is not affiliated with any other church than Scientology. And the Moonies aren't associated with anybody other than the Moonies. And so on, with the Hari Krishnas, and Heaven's Gate, and Peoples' Temple, and the Branch Davidians, and on and on. They can all brag that they are not aligned, or affiliated, or associated, with anybody else.

Your little slogan about "leveling of your pride" reveals the brainwashing that A.A. has inflicted on you. Drinking alcohol to excess has nothing to do with "pride", or "ego", or any other the other mind-bending A.A. slogans that put you down and mess with your mind. Please see the file on The "Us Stupid Drunks" Conspiracy for much, much more of Bill Wilson's insane raving about how you have to be humiliated and have your pride reduced.

Since you seem to be in the military, Captain, you should be familiar with brainwashing techniques. I say "should be". Maybe you aren't, but you should be. Please read up on how the Chinese Communist brainwashing of American POWs worked, here:

Please notice the great similarity between Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Conditions of Thought Reform, and the 12 Steps of A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used
**    as pawns in Foreign Policy.
**      ==  Henry Kissinger

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Mon, January 21, 2013 11:31 am     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: Bob O.
Subject: A new slogan

Mister T,

I have a new slogan or one I have not yet heard:

Willpower — it works if you work it.

Thank you for all you do. Peace and love.

Long Island Bob O.

Hello again, Bob,

I like that. And it's true — far more so than the 12-Step slogan we all know about.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Carol_R ]

Date: Thu, January 24, 2013 3:43 pm     (Answered 25 January 2013)
From: "Carol R."
Subject: hurrah!

I've been sober 25 years (I'm a 60 year old female), and love your take on the 12 steps. They echo many of my own assertions, and this is from someone who actually worked as a counselor in a 12 step based facility early in my sobriety.

I could never agree with the idea that I was powerless over alcohol, and that some bogus higher power would keep me sober. No, it is I, that chooses not to drink, and that IS power!

You may have covered this, but I have not read through a lot of your site, but one thing I hated about "recovery" was the emphasis on "working my program", or that the alcohol boogie would slip up and get me in its grasp. Now I live my life as someone who simply doesn't drink. Period.

Keep up the good work!


"There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot."
— Aldo Leopold

Carol R.
Ornamental Horticulture Specialist

Hello Carol,

Thanks for the letter. I can only totally agree. And congratulations for getting it together.

And yes, they do Phobia Induction to make people afraid to leave A.A., and afraid of not "working a strong program". "If you leave, your fate will be Jails, Institutions, or Death!"

I think I mentioned not having "A Program" for sober living a few times, here and there. I have often joked that my "program" was going down to the river and feeding the cute little fluff-ball goslings and ducklings. My daily "group meeting" was meeting with the geese and ducks and the river and the sunshine.

Canada Goose goslings
Carmen and the Family of 5 Goslings, lining up to get some munchies
Carmen is the smallest one in the middle.

And you know, they really are much better lunch companions than some people who are complaining and moaning and groaning about how miserable and sinful and selfish they are because they used to drink alcohol years ago.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The thinking man must oppose all cruel customs no matter how
**     deeply rooted in tradition or surrounded by a halo. We need a
**     boundless ethic which will include the animals also."
**        ==  Albert Schweitzer, physician/Nobel Laureate.

June 11, 2012, Monday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4, eating bread

Canada Goose goslings
The eastern pond, looking south

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Elaine_M ]

Date: Sat, January 26, 2013 11:05 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "elaine m."
To: [email protected]

ur an idiot. Talk about brainwashing..........Your misinterpretations or the bb is so far off the mark it's sickening. Get a life instead of trying to discourage people who are more motivated and decent than you.

Hello Elaine,

Thanks for the opinion. Would you care to get specific about what "misinterpretations" you are talking about? And what evidence do you have to support your alternate interpretation?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma,
**     a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt
**     to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth."
**       ==  — Umberto Eco

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#SoberbyChoice ]

Date: Sun, January 27, 2013 4:34 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "SoberbyChoice"
Subject: Re: Mary KC, Univ. of VA RN

Hi Terry, I suggest you direct Mary, the RN from UVA that is in your latest email letter, to Dr. Bankole Johnson, head of psychiatry at her university. Here's the link to his Washington Post story on AA does not work:

Here is his profile on Wikipedia:

Bankole A. Johnson, DSc, MD, PhD, MPhil, FRCPsych (born 5 November 1959) is a licensed physician and board-certified psychiatrist throughout Europe and the United States who currently serves as Alumni Professor and Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia. Johnson's primary area of research expertise is the psychopharmacology of medications for treating addictions, and he is well known in the field for his discovery that topiramate, a gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) facilitator and glutamate antagonist, is an effective treatment for alcoholism.[1][2] Professor Johnson also received national media attention for his appearance in the Home Box Office (HBO) original documentary feature, "Addiction", which won the prestigious Governors Award, a special Emmy Award, from the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.[3]


Hello again, SoberbyChoice,

Thanks for the tip. I didn't realize what a small world it is. I knew about Dr. Johnson and his Washington Post article, and love to use his statement as a signature (see below), but I didn't realize that he and Mary are at the same university.

Outrageous. Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. It's almost a comedy of errors that while the doctor is doing world-class research into addictions, the nurse goes and joins a cult religion and insists that she has the answers. Even worse, her new religion insists that it knows more than all of the "doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists" in the world. (I can see this resembling the PBS TV series "Dr. Martin".)

Yes, I'll point her to the article.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A recent review by the Cochrane Library, a health-care research group,
**     of studies on alcohol treatment conducted between 1966 and 2005 states
**     its results plainly: "No experimental studies unequivocally
**     demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF [12-step facilitation]
**     approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."
**     We're addicted to rehab. It doesn't even work., By Bankole A. Johnson,
**     Sunday, August 8, 2010
**     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#April_S ]

Date: Fri, January 25, 2013 8:00 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "April S."
Subject: cult test

Hi Orange,

Love your website for so many reasons and esp the 1-100 cult indicators.
Is this your own list or compiled from else where.
Finding it helpful in leaving another cult like group.



Hello April,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm especially happy to hear that the Cult Test is being helpful in getting you out of a cult.

I put the Cult Test together myself. I got the original idea from a magazine article that was in something like Mother Jones, or The New Age Journal, or something like that, more than 20 years ago. They did a bunch of articles about various and sundry cults in one issue — basically devoted most of the issue to that one subject — and they described how so many of the new religious groups and sects from the 'sixties and 'seventies had failed and degenerated into cults, and gave their stories and told what happened with a bunch of them.

They also included a 10-point checklist for asking whether a group or a church was a cult. I could only remember the first half-dozen or so items:

  1. The Guru is always right.
  2. You are always wrong.
  3. No exit.
  4. No graduates.
  5. Cult-speak.
  6. Magical, mystical, unexplainable workings.

That gave me the idea for a more extensive test. So I read a zillion books about various cults, and studied them every which way, and also drew on my own experiences with the new religions and cults that had popped up in the 'sixties and 'seventies.

One of the things that I noticed was that after a while, the cults started to all look alike. They did the same things and talked the same way, and acted the same way, and thought — or didn't think — the same way. Sure, they had different gurus, and different names, and came from different countries, and dressed in different costumes, and they had different creation myths, and different holy scriptures, and some chanted and some did yoga, and some meditated and some prayed, and some did science-fiction practices, but underneath the surface appearances, they started to look very similar.

So I started collecting common cult characteristics, and I ended up with a list of 100 characteristics of cults. (And the 100 number is arbitrary. I have another half-dozen items that I'm tempted to add, but renumbering everything is a big job and I'm not sure if it's worth it.)

You can see the bibliography for a list of the books on cults:

Have a good day now, and welcome to freedom.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In A.D. 640, when the Saracens captured Alexandria, seat of
**     ancient culture, Greek scholars pleaded with them not to burn
**     the scrolls of the great library. Their reply, as recorded by
**     Gibbon in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
**     remains a classic in theological logic. "If the writings
**     support the Koran, they are superfluous," ruled the warrior
**     tribesmen. "If they oppose it, they are pernicious; burn them."
**       ==  Richard Mathison, God is a Millionaire, page 33.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Lynn_K ]

Date: Mon, January 28, 2013 11:13 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Lynne K."
Subject: AA & Religious Faith — Comment

Hello Orange!

I'm writing a sociology paper on groups, so in my internet research I stumbled on your website. I'm sure glad I did, because there is scant data out there that supports my opinion of AA; an opinion that mirrors your own in many ways.

My personal experience with people in AA has been that they are narcissistic assholes who believe that they are above other people. For example, a group of my friends were all trying to decide where we wanted to meet for dinner. It was something we did once a month to have fun and catch up with each other. The *entire* agenda, unfortunately, was dictated by the one person who was a member of AA. We couldn't go to any restaurant that served alcohol or reminded her of alcohol. That pretty much left "Chuck-E-Cheese". I absolutely refused to be dictated to like that, and told everyone that as long as they allowed one person to control everyone else's agenda, I was out on our dinner group. Fortunately there were more that agreed with me than not. Needless to say, "Miss AA" chose to exempt herself from our dinner plans, which had ZERO effect on the amount of fun we had that night.

And the God thing annoys the living hell out of me. Look...don't get me wrong. I believe in God. I just don't believe in organized religion or shoving the "God thing" down people's throats. And that's what AA does. It disguises itself as a self-help group dedicated to bringing alcoholics into sobriety, but it is really a cult wrapped around self-help. Kinda like Scientology.

Anyway, thanks for speaking.. (and I kinda hate this term, but I'm gonna use it anyway...) truth to power!!



Hello Lynne,

Thanks for the letter. Funny that you should mention the word "narcissistic". I diagnosed the A.A. founder Bill Wilson as a raving case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And I'm not even a psychiatrist, but he was so outrageous that he left no doubt. And Bill's own psychiatrist also said that Bill was immature, narcissistic, and grandiose. More on that here.

About catering to alcoholics: South Park just nailed it in their spoof of A.A. They had a long line of people waiting to be miraculously healed by a bleeding statue of the Virgin Mary, cripples and blind people and cancer victims and other sick people, and when someone discovered that Stan's father Randy was an alcoholic, he said, "Oh you poor thing!" and pushed Randy to the front of the line, announcing, "Make way, make way! Alcoholic coming through!"

See: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e14-bloody-mary

There is more about the South Park episode, Bloody Mary, here.

About avoiding people, places, and things that remind you of alcohol: You will end up hiding from most of the world. As you noticed, you get reduced to like one place, maybe Chuck-E-Cheese.

Now I strongly recommend that newly-detoxed people stay away from temptation while they are still shakey and unsure of themselves, but there comes a time when you have to just live in the real world. All of it.

For me, the moment of truth came when I had something like 6 or 9 months of sobriety. I was walking up the street and heard some stunningly beautiful music coming out of loudspeakers that a restaurant had put out above the sidewalk tables. I went inside to ask the waitress what music was playing. She didn't know, so she asked me to wait. I looked around, and there were lots of people drinking alcohol, and there was the bar, with tier upon tier of bottles of distilled liquors behind it. I didn't flip out. I didn't order a drink. I didn't do anything. I just waited. The waitress waited on her customers, and then went in back to get the answer. The singer was a Spanish woman named "Lhasa", or "Lhasa de Sela". I went to the library and got some of her stuff. Beautiful. She sings in Spanish, and I don't understand any of it, but she still has a beautiful voice, and you don't need to understand the words to love the music.

And now, I see alcohol every time I go into the supermarket and walk past the beer and wine aisle. Often, they even have something on sale and stick it out in your face. That's okay, I just ignore it. I don't make it a habit to walk down that aisle and drool over all of the stuff, I just walk on by. It's just no big deal. If I couldn't stand looking at some bottles, I'd have relapsed and died long ago.

And the funny thing is, I don't see ex-smokers getting that kind of consideration. When was the last time you heard an ex-smoker saying, "We can't go anywhere that reminds me of smoking"? (And yet, smoking kills four times as many people as alcohol does.)

About "the God thing": Yes, they are crazy. They imagine that "Higher Power" will wait on them hand and foot and grant their wishes and deliver miracles on demand, even while He lets little brown and black children die on the other side of the world. The A.A. true believers have no explanation for why God likes them more than little colored children.

Yes, A.A. is very much like Scientology. (Again, after a while, all of the cults start to look alike.) A "great genius" brings a "wonderful new method of recovery" into this world — the most wonderful method — the only thing that works — and you can't criticize it because you are insane and he is so above and beyond you that you don't even know how screwed up you are. And they have all of the answers and you are just stupid. And there is no logical explanation for how all of their goofy practices are supposed to work, but you can't think that because your thinking is defective... and on and on. But if you just join their group and do the practices and obey orders you will be saved.

Oh yeh. It's just the same old thing, in cult after cult.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. is not a "self-help group", it's an
**     "elf-help group". You are supposed to pray
**     and beg for an invisible "Higher Power",
**     like a leprechaun, or Cinderella's Fairy
**     Godmother, to solve all of your problems
**     for you and grant all of your wishes.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Otto_G ]

Date: Thu, January 10, 2013 12:43 am     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Otto G."
Subject: Alcoholics Anonymous Germany

Hello Orange,

I'm writing from Freiburg in Germany. Is there any information on AA in Germany on your many, many pages? Found your website by searching for "Alkoholismus". Thank you and best regards


Date: Mon, January 28, 2013 12:37 am     (Answered 30 January 2013)
Subject: Fwd: Alcoholics Anonymous Germany
From: "Otto G."

Hello Orange,

Sorry have heared nothing from you. I understand that you will get so many mails that you cannot answer all of them. There is AA in Germany too but works pretty different to the AA in USA. Maybe there is less Nazismus left in Germany than in your country. Also we have not so many churches and cults like you. The influence of irrational thinking is less important here.

Hope my english is good enough to understand what I mean.

Best regards

Hello Otto,

Thanks for the questions. Sorry about being slow to answer. I've been looking for some information that I saved somewhere. There is quite a story about A.A. in Germany, suing one of their own members for producing a better translation of the old out-of-copyright first edition of the Big Book.

I agree that there is less Nazismus left in Germany than in the USA now. The German people learned from World War II. The American people did not learn from the Vietnam War. And Dr. Frank Buchman, the Nazi-sympathizing theological father of Alcoholics Anonymous, was an American from Pennsylvania, not a German. Fascism is everywhere.

Und deine English ist okay. Und wenn du kannst etwas nicht auf English sagen, du kannst es auf Deutsch sagan. Vielleicht ich werde verstehen. Ich wohnte in Wiesbaden 1962 bis 1965, und liebte es.

(For mono-lingual Americans, I said that his English is okay, and that if he can't say something in English, he can say it in German, and I might understand it. I lived in Wiesbaden, Germany, from 1962 to 1965, and loved it.)

The story about the German lawsuit is: A fellow whose name was Matthias, I think, or Matthew in English, and some friends, didn't like the translation of the "A.A. Big Book" that the official German A.A. organization was selling. The official translation downplayed the "spirituality" and didn't correctly translate all of the talk about God and spirituality. So Matthias and friends made their own translation of the old first edition of the Big Book, which is out of copyright. Then they printed up their translation, and sold it very inexpensively or gave it away for free. They went into jails and prisons, giving away the book, and "carrying the message".

There is no valid copyright on the "Big Book" Alcoholics Anonymous for three reasons:

  1. Bill Wilson printed up and sold for $3.50 a multilith (like mimeograph) edition of the Big Book which did not contain any copyright notice. That forever voided the copyright on the book. When something is published without a copyright notice, then it is all over right then and there, and the book can never be copyrighted. It is forever in the public domain, and free for everybody to use. As one wit said, "Losing a copyright is like losing your virginity. Once it's gone, it's gone, and you can't get it back."

  2. Bill Wilson then fraudulently filed for the copyright on the Big Book, claiming that he was the sole author of the book, and that he was operating a sole proprietorship called "Works Publishing", which was publishing the book. All untrue, which means that the copyright was again invalid. The book had more than 40 authors, and there was no such company as "Works Publishing". Bill Wilson and friends had sold stock in something called the "100 Men Corporation" which financed the writing of the book. So Bill Wilson was stealing the copyright of the book. So that copyright was invalid.

  3. In 1983, the staff of the A.A. headquarters forgot to renew the copyright. So it expired then. Even if the copyright had once been valid (which it never was), it expired in 1983. Since 1983, the book has unquestionably been in the public domain, and anybody can print and sell it, without even asking anybody's permission.

In spite of all of that, agents for the New York A.A. headquarters (A.A.W.S.) went to Germany and they and the German A.A. leadership sued Matthias and friends for violation of the copyright on the Big Book. The A.A.W.S. agents committed perjury in the German court and claimed that Bill Wilson was the sole author of the book and that it was still under copyright. Matthias didn't have enough money to pay a lawyer to fight all the way to the German supreme court, so he lost the case. He was forced to destroy all of his copies of the Big Book, and pay 2.5 million Euros or go to prison, and promise to never again give away or sell a copy of the Big Book. A.A. did that just so that they could get more money from German alcoholics.

What is really outrageous is that a German web site — aagso.org — printed the story of the German A.A. leadership meeting in a brothel and drinking beer while they planned the lawsuit, complete with photographs. The German A.A. leaders believed that sobriety meant that they should not drink whiskey or distilled liquors, but beer was okay.

I saved all of those files but haven't been able to find them. Because aagso.org is no longer online, I shall have to recreate that stuff and put it online. I know that I saved those web pages and documents somewhere. I shall just have to find them.

What is immediately available is this:

  1. A.A.W.S. committed perjury against innocent A.A. members in Germany. Especially look at Mitchell K.'s stories about the lawsuit.

  2. Information about the creation of the Big Book, including the copyright form.

  3. The Stock Prospectus for the 100 Men Corporation, which raised the money to finance writing the Big Book.

  4. Go to the Yahoo group "GSO" (the USA Yahoo, not the German one) and look at these messages:
    (You will have to subscribe to the group and get approved by the moderator. That is easy. When asked why you want to join, you can explain that you want to see the historical archives of messages about the German lawsuit over the Big Book copyright.)

I will keep looking, and find the rest of that information.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who
**       falsely believe they are free."
**         — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749—1832),
**           German poet, dramatist, and philosopher

June 11, 2012, Monday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4, eating oats

Canada Goose
Small Cackling Geese. Notice the short neck.

Canada Goose goslings
Geese on shore

Canada Goose goslings
Family of 3

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#JA ]

Date: Mon, January 14, 2013 5:32 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "JA"
Subject: Just a thought or two

I stumbled across your site and just wanted to chime in. Both my parents were alcoholics so of course all of us kids fell right in line with the genetic patterns. i believe that much of what we dealt with was from our parents being so drunk and insane. They set a VERY bad example. I swore I would never be like them — uh-huh.. one sister still at it, the other one dead, both parents dead as a result of their "pain control"

Starting at 13 my mom got me drunk and that was that until i turned 39. All during that time there were drugs, sex and alcohol — & rock n roll — everyday. I never thought I would quit/change/live. My mom quit drinking in 1980, which was good, that gave me cues that it was possible.

My big story is that I do believe that God intervened in my behalf. I awoke one morning and had a very bad hangover. For some reason I went to an AA meeting with a client. And that was that. Done. Over. No mas. NO desire, no problem being around people drinking.

I cried for 3 days and knew I would never go back. I wish it was the easy for everyone. My faith and gratitude have become a major part of my life. but it was done to me, without me being aware. Thank you God.

So I do think that intervention can come from above, continuance comes with sticking to it.

I did try to go to AA after that and went for about three months. I did get sick of standing up and saying hi i'm blah blah and i'm an alcoholic! Nope didn't need to be that any longer. That was my main issue with that program. And the fact that NO-ONE discusses nutritional depravations after years of abuse to the body. I agree that stopping is first, but restoration must follow. If they really wanted to provide a broad recovery I think that should be included. I was seriously malnourished!

After reading all your pages of commentary, I see how that mind set/propaganda has permeated every aspect of our society. It's scary but I see how I been buying onto it all even tho I did not stay with "the program". That whole reality of new-age thinking has borrowed it's way into every day perception! Yikes.

I now have almost 22 years of sobriety!
I love it.

Hello JA,

Thank you for the letter, and congratulations for getting it together and saving your own life.

And I totally agree about the nutrition. That's a big deal. One of the really bad things about A.A. is that people are encouraged to go on a coffee and cigarettes diet. You guzzle coffee during the meeting, and then go outside for a smoke break and smoke cigarettes.

Heck, too many years of smoking is what made me sick and made me drink too much alcohol in the first place, just to kill the pain of what cigarettes were doing to me. When I totally stopped the alcohol and tobacco, and started paying some attention to nutrition, and eating right, the improvement in my health was almost unbelievable.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      O health! health! the blessing of the rich! the riches of the poor!
**      who can buy thee at too dear a rate, since there is no enjoying
**      this world without thee?
**         ==  Ben Johnson, Volpone, II, 1

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Thomas_J ]

Date: Tue, January 15, 2013 8:18 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Thomas J."

You have no real understanding of the program of AA. You are so far off the mark on every point you make. AA is free from any religious organization since they split from the oxford group. The split occurred as not to keep alcoholic catholics, jews, and others from getting the help they needed. You are obviously an atheist and very angry (as most of you are). I'll pray for you.

T. A. J.

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for the letter. Alcoholics Anonymous never stopped being the Oxford Group cult religion. All that Bill Wilson did was change the name of the branch of the Oxford Group that he took from Frank Buchman. Bill Wilson even said so:

"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and nowhere else."
== William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 39.

Where did the early AAs find the material for the remaining ten Steps? Where did we learn about moral inventory, amends for harm done, turning our wills and lives over to God? Where did we learn about meditation and prayer and all the rest of it? The spiritual substance of our remaining ten Steps came straight from Dr. Bob's and my own earlier association with the Oxford Groups, as they were then led in America by that Episcopal rector, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker.
== William G. Wilson, The Language of the Heart, page 298, published posthumously in 1988.

Of course Bill Wilson was being deceptive there, listing Sam Shoemaker as the leader of the Oxford Group. Frank Buchman was the real leader, but he was hated by the American and British people for his support of Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, so Bill only talked about the number two man in the cult.

Bill Wilson did not generously start a new religious group for the benefit of the Catholics and Jews. Bill was kicked out of the Oxford Group for failing to follow orders. So he hijacked the alcoholics' branch of the cult in New York City, and set up his own cult. But Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder, over at Akron and Cleveland, stayed in the Oxford Group for nearly another two years before they decided to quit it, in spite of Buchman's repeatedly attending Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies and praising Adolf Hitler.

You should read the real history of the Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      "I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a
**      front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism."
**         ==  Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman, founder and leader of the
**         Oxford Group and Moral Re-Armament, August 26, 1936.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Edy_R ]

Date: Tue, January 15, 2013 8:26 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Edy R."
Subject: Fallacy

AA is NOT a treatment program, it's a self-help group, making almost every sentence and certainly every point you make invalid. Try again;)

Hello Edy,

Thanks for the note. A.A. is not a self-help group, it's an elf-help group. You pray for some spirit like Cinderella's Fairy Godmother to zap you and fix you and take care of you and grant all of your wishes.

And that's why it doesn't work.

A.A. is actually so opposed to self-help that they even denounce self-reliance as something bad. Look here for some of Bill's crazy teachings about that.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. is not a "self-help group", it's an
**     "elf-help group". You are supposed to pray
**     and beg that an invisible "Higher Power"
**     will solve all of your problems for you
**     and grant all of your wishes.
**     It sounds like Casper the Friendly Ghost,
**     The Jolly Green Leprechaun, and Santa's
**     Elves all qualify as a "Higher Power".

[The next letter from Edy_R is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#Laura_T ]

Date: Tue, January 15, 2013 10:23 pm     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "Laura T."
Subject: Hey Terry!

Don't know if you read my blog yet but I thought you might like this.


I have a possible lawyer who may take the Karla Brada case. He needs proof that AA has a duty of care — therefore, I am asking people like you for assistance.

If you have any AA approved literature that proves they have a duty to the care and safety of the members, it would be great. I have spent some considerable time on this and am hoping that you might have more proof.

Thank you.

Laura T.

Hi again, Laura,

Thanks for your work on this issue. I can't think of anything specific. In fact, Bill Wilson's double-talk usually said just the opposite — Bill said that A.A. should not take care of people, or help them:

The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God.
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th editions, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 98.

So don't help the alcoholics, and don't perform any services for them. Bill says that they must learn to rely on God. That is pure Buchmanism, and that is disgusting. The Oxford Group never dispensed any charity, either, and Frank Buchman also taught that his followers should not help the poor or disabled because that would "make materialists out of them."

I can't think of Bill Wilson ever saying that the oldtimers should protect the newcomers, rather than sexually exploit them. That isn't surprising, considering that Bill Wilson was the resident Exploiter in Chief.

Nevertheless, I'll post this in hopes that some of the readers can think of some reference.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     My enemies I can handle, but Lord save me from
**      those who would do unto me for my own good.
**        —  Agent Orange as a young hippie, 1968

June 11, 2012, Monday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Son of Gus, standing in center. (Or maybe daughter. I'm not sure.)
That one is two years old. When I look closely, it looks like the other goose to the left, with its head down grooming its feathers, appears to be Gus's other grown child. The grey neck is the give-away. Canada Geese have black necks, like the one on the right.

Canada Goose goslings
Gus' Two Grown Children, on the left, and a Canada Goose on the right.
In this shot it's clear that they are two of Gus' children. They don't often hang out together, but they are doing it this day. Notice the orange feet. Their beaks are also part gray, and part dark orange.

These geese look so much like White-Fronted Geese that I had to do a double-take and triple-take and closely compare pictures to make sure that they weren't a couple of Front Geese. These guys (or girls) have only a tiny white fringe around the bases of their beaks, while it is large and obvious on Front Geese. And these guys have very dark gray necks, while Front Geese have lighter gray necks. And Front Geese do not have the white patch on the sides of their heads at all. That comes from a Canada Goose parent. Yes, these are the children of Gus and his Canada Goose wife.

Still, all of these similarities make me suspect that they may be very closely related genetically. The fact that Canada Geese and Greylag Geese can breed makes it obvious that the Greylag Geese are not very far removed from the wild stock. In fact, even the pure white fat barnyard geese can also breed with Canada Geese and produce fertile offspring that go on to produce more funny-looking halfbreed children.

Canada Goose goslings
Gus' Grown Children

Canada Goose goslings
Son of Gus

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters339.html#L ]

Date: Wed, January 16, 2013 12:13 am     (Answered 30 January 2013)
From: "L."
Subject: At least ALANON doesn't try to tell members they are fuck-ups...

But it does say some pretty mean things about alcoholics, like "if your alcoholic's lips are moving, you know he/she is lying... This is the kind of crap I sometimes hear as a "Double Winner," AKA Alcoholic + child of Alcoholic.

I wanted to make an observation about AA's tradition of anonymity at the level of press, radio and films: As I understand it, the tradition was intended to prevent people from profiting from any affiliation with AA, or manipulating people with their affiliation. But what I invariably hear in meetings where it is discussed is the example of a celebrity announcing his membership — then relapsing, thereby giving AA a "bad" name and deterring potential recoverery.

What makes me really sad — and angry — is hearing AA members stigmatized by fellow members.If AA truly was interested in reaching out to sufferers, they wouldn't have a problem being honest about the reality of relapse or worry about being embarrassed by someone going thru something which is a very real part of alcoholism. Relapse is nothing to be ashamed of.

If AA is as big and powerful as members believe it is, it can certainly survive Lindsay Lohan's bad example. In my opinion, she's a great example of a suffering alcoholic and deserves real compassion — which won't be coming from AA members, in these parts anyway...

Alcoholism is messy. Where I live, people seem to be really happy listening to circuit speakers but it drives me crazy. I got sober (first time) in San Francisco, where members can tolerate a little anarchy and don't avoid calling on newcomers because they've already seen and heard "everything" a newcomer could possibly say. It's not possible to identify with people who only share "solutions."

After 18 years of voluntary sobriety (I attended AA for the first 8), I suffered a three-year relapse and bottomed out big-time with a night in a south carolina jail after crashing my sister-in-law's car during a tragic family crisis. After being off the grid (anonymous) for so long, it was absolutely crushing to live with the family, social, medical and legal stigma.

After 5 miserable years in AA, I saw how poor my interpersonal skills were — and moved over to alanon (self-care) and CBASP (a combination of Cognitive Behavioral and family of origin factors). I have asked for a lot of help, because I knew my quality of life was poor and not likely to improve with just AA where I was extremely lonely. I just could not navigate the cliques and was told that by being a friend, I would make friends. WTF — I just want to go to coffee. What I hear every day in AA is a great reflection of my own family, which is not deranged, by any means: if you feel like crap, you are doing it wrong, and you are ungrateful for what we are offering. This is a very effective way to paralyze codependents.

Well, thanks for your research, although if I relapse I probably will return to AA — it can be supportive I do find it inspiring to be with people who really do try to face the consequences of their actions. But I know now the alcoholic who still suffers is likely to be me.

Thanks! and please keep me anonymous, if possible.

Hello L.,

Thanks for the letter. I hope that you are doing well.

Your subject line said, "At least ALANON doesn't try to tell members they are fuck-ups." Alas, I see them doing that a lot. They are so crazy that they teach that the reason the husband drinks is because wifey is an oppressive bitch. This condescending story is from official Al-Anon literature:

      Once upon a time there was an Enormous Thumb belonging to a woman with an Alcoholic Husband and Three Teenaged Children.
      The four of them lived under her thumb, so of course they couldn't do much growing up. Often their spirits writhed under the weight; every time they tried to get out from under, they'd do something wrong and the thumb would clamp down on them again.
      Father managed by keeping himself flattened out drunk most of the time; he was so cute about escaping to a bottle that, no matter how much mama watched, she couldn't catch him at it until he'd drunk himself into unconsciousness. Everyone thought she was a Very Nice Lady, and they were sorry she was having such a hard time with her family.
      There was really no reason for her to come to Al-Anon to solve her problems because she always knew just what to do about everything. But she did want to make her husband stop drinking, so she thought she'd try it. She was quite unhappy at first because some of the members were not inclined to Pull any Punches. She was quite indignant when they tried to show her what she was doing to her family, but to everyone's amazement the Thumb began to shrink and lose weight, and things looked brighter.
      More and more she realized what she was doing and, being a Determined Character, she applied the program every day and her other problems took care of themselves very nicely.
One Day At A Time In Al-Anon, Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, 1990, page 286.

Wow. Poisonous garbage like that is enough to drive you nuts.

You can see more of that here.

Could I interest you in some non-cult groups for a little sane moral support and companionship and advice? Here is my list:

Have a good day now, and good luck.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The hardest thing to cope with is not selfishness or vanity
**     or deceitfulness, but sheer stupidity.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer, The Passionate State of Mind (1954), 210.

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Last updated 8 March 2013.
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