Letters, We Get Mail, CCLI

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Todd_D ]

Date: Fri, July 22, 2011 3:11 pm     (answered 24 July 2011)
From: "Todd D."
Subject: End-Time Cults

Dear Sir:

I was in an "end-times" cult in the mid-1970's to early 1980's in Tucson, Arizona. It was called the Lighthouse Gospel Tract Foundation and it was not the Jehovah Witnesses. You could read the whole article in the Arizona Daily Star, 1981 June edition. I don't know what date, but probably toward the end of the month, because the date was set for June 28 for the Lord's coming and the end of the world, and the Big MidEast war and so on. They predicted all of this using the bible. They had other wierd teachings, such as the one-world government conspiracy where all the Jewish people are going to take over the world, and things like don't have any to do with your family if they don't follow the Lord like they do and believe like they do and so on.

It was a terrible tragedy for my life and for my wife who left me because of it all. I got her to join and she didn't believe it.

There is so much to say about it, but the consequences and effects from such a group are real.

Thank you for your time.


Todd D.

Hello Todd,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your suffering. That cult is a new one to me. There are so many, aren't there?

I wish you well. Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In the Bible, Moses says that we must kill all of the
**     non-Jewish people who invite us into their churches.
**     (Deuteronomy 13:13-15, 7:3, 13:8-10, 20:14-15, 20:16-18)
**     There go a lot of fundamentalist Christians.

[The previous letter from So_Done_With_AA is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#So_Done_With_AA ]

Date: Fri, July 22, 2011 7:00 pm     (answered 24 July 2011)
From: "So Done With AA"
Subject: Re: Done! Woo hoo!

Dear Mr. Orange,

Wow, you spotted The Pacific Group a mile away! I couldn't remember the name of the group, so I didn't mention it.

Yes, they are very active here in Northern California, particularly in the Contra Costa County suburb of Walnut Creek. I would allege that almost all of the sexual abuse I was referring to happened at the hands of members of our local Pacific Group offshoot called "Nursery." The guy who harassed me for 3 years was a "Nursery Guy."

I will give you a run-down of what Nursery is like here, and you can tell me if it mirrors the Pacific Group. I think Nursery and Pacific are the same thing. Many of the older Nursery guys had the same sponsor in Los Angeles, which I always thought was weird.

  • 1. They are militant. It's their way, or the highway. The meeting where I got glared at for using the bathroom during shares? Nursery meeting. The sponsor that told me to get a job while disabled? Her husband was a "Nursery guy." Nursery sponsors expect their sponsees to do whatever they say, whenever.

  • 2. They demean women. Most of their meetings are for men only, although they are trying to convert young women into the "Nursery way of life." In mixed meetings, I have heard Nursery speakers make derogatory jokes about women, and about Al-Anon. They openly let older members hit on and stalk younger women in "their" mixed meetings. When I say older I mean over 45, and when I say younger I mean under 20.

  • 3. They are in general against their members using other 12-step programs, and most of them are anti-medication. One woman I knew changed her sobriety date after she tried Anti-Depressants.

  • 4. They spread like a virus. They are constantly starting up new meetings in their home areas and in new areas, and require that the meeting be run the way they say. They don't even care if the new area has a population that would likely be averse to their views. (Example: Nursery members are going to San Francisco meetings to spread their "gospel" there. I can't think of a place more adverse to this dogma than SF.

  • 5. They are taking over young people's meetings, conferences, and round-ups, because that's where all the young women are. Don't get me started about what happens at YP events.

  • 6. They are the craziest Big Book and 12x12 thumpers I have ever seen. They all quote it like robots.

  • 7. They all share EXACTLY the same way. As soon as a guy shares, if he talks that certain way, my husband and I know he's a "Nursery Guy." They are CONSTANTLY beating fear into people about how if they don't do x, y, or z they are going to die. Crazy!

  • 8. They are complete fucking hypocrites! They talk all this big talk in meetings about "being of service" "hitting their knees" "conceding to their innermost selves," but then once the meetings are over they are hitting on underage girls, they are breaking the law, and engaging in other addictive behaviors. One Nursery dude distilled and drank Ginger Beer, but, despite the Nursery Doctrine, did not believe he was relapsing or engaging in risky behavior!

  • 9. They are homophobic, so much so that they won't even hold one another's hands at the end of their meetings when they pray. What a laugh!!

Now that I'm writing this, I have no idea how I took this for as long as I did. AA said that they were my family now, my healthy family, but they weren't healthy. They were just as sick or sicker than my origin family. Thank goodness I am getting my real family back again. My real family isn't going to make me drink, like AA warns! AA almost made me drink!

Thanks again. If I think of any other sociological stuff to tell you about Nursery Group I will email you again.

So Done With AA

Hi again, So Done With AA,

Yes, that sounds like the Pacific Group. The Nursery sounds like just another local name. (They have so many: Badger Group, Foxhall Group, Midtown Group, Plymouth Group...) The dead give-away is those older members all having the same sponsor in Los Angeles. That's the headquarters of Clancy and his Pacific Group.

I'd love to hear more about "The Nursery".

Oh, and I would like to get you started on what happens at YP events. Coincidentally, there is a conversation going on over at the forum about A.A. recruiting in high schools, and how inappropriate it is, considering how many sex offenders get sentenced to A.A. meetings by a misguided judge.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The common dogma [of fundamentalists] is fear of modern knowledge,
**     inability to cope with the fast change in a scientific-technological
**     society, and the real breakdown in apparent moral order in recent
**     years.... That is why hate is the major fuel, fear is the cement of
**     the movement, and superstitious ignorance is the best defense against
**     the dangerous new knowledge. ... When you bring up arguments that cast
**     serious doubts on their cherished beliefs you are not simply making a
**     rhetorical point, you are threatening their whole Universe and their
**     immortality.  That provokes anger and quite frequently violence. ...
**     Unfortunately you cannot reason with them and you even risk violence
**     in confronting them. Their numbers will decline only when society
**     stabilizes, and adapts to modernity.
**         ==  G. Gaia

[The previous letter from John_M is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#John_M ]

Date: Fri, July 22, 2011 8:26 pm     (answered 24 July 2011)
From: "John M."
Subject: Re: Brooke Mueller Heads To Mexican Rehab Center | The FABlife


Mostly famous for being married to (and about as crazy as) Charlie Sheen.

Hi again, John,

Okay, so that "celebrity" is someone who acted in some movies that I never saw.

But the kicker is that she was married to Charlie Sheen. And also suffering from addictions. What a sad, disfunctional family. Does anybody in that family have their head screwed on straight?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Alexander the Great was a short, left-handed, epileptic, Albanian bisexual
**     with a very high-pitched voice, who introduced to Europe the banana,
**     crucifixion, sugar, cotton and the Ring-necked parakeet.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Unnamed ]

Date: Fri, July 22, 2011 10:37 pm     (answered 24 July 2011)
From: "Unnamed"
Subject: My sponsor invades my privacy

She wants me to list all my sex partners even when no harm was done to either.
That's weird

Hello Unnamed,

Yes, that's very wierd. Please dump that sponsor immediately. She sounds like just another pervert who wants to hear all of the juicy details of other people's sex lives. That has nothing to do with sobriety.

And another, more frightening, thought is: What would she do with that information if she got it? She is not like a Catholic priest who is sworn to secrecy with the most sacred of oaths on a Bible. She can do anything from blab your list all over town to call up your former lovers and try to hit on them, or try to get more information out of them, "for your own good", of course.

So please dump that sponsor, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23. continued:

Saturday Market
Saturday Market, Portland, Oregon
[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Jeffrey_G ]

Date: Sat, July 23, 2011 2:35 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "Jeffrey G."

I am reading on your website that you think you know what Dr.Tiebout meant or is saying and what he mite really mean or not. I don't think you may be alcoholic. I believe he knew exactly what he was saying.

Jeff G

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the letter. I also believe that Dr. Tiebout knew what he was saying: "It is wonderful fun to torture alcoholics into surrendering."

It's really that simple. He was a crazy sadistic monster. A mad scientist. An insane psychiatrist.

Best of all, he could argue that he was doing it to alcoholics for their own good. I am reminded of these quotes:

"Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment."

— Charles Bufe

"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it."

— H. L. Mencken

In 1869, John Stuart Mill published his essay on "The Subjugation of Women":

But was there ever any domination which did not appear natural to those who possessed it? ... the generality of the male sex cannot yet tolerate the idea of living with an equal... In the present day, power holds a smoother language, and whomsoever it oppresses, always pretends to do so for their own good...

The eminent theologian C. S. Lewis wrote:

      Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
The new Nero will approach us with the silky manners of a doctor, and though all will be in fact as compulsory as the tunica molesta or Smithfield or Tyburn, all will go on within the unemotional therapeutic sphere where words like 'right' and 'wrong' or 'freedom' and 'slavery' are never heard...
Even if the treatment is painful, even if it is life-long, even if it is fatal, that will be only a regrettable accident; the intention was purely therapeutic...

But because they are 'treatment, not punishment, they can be criticized only by fellow-experts and on technical grounds, never by men as men and on grounds of justice...

But we ought long ago to have learned our lesson. We should be too old now to be deceived by those humane pretensions which have served to usher in every cruelty of the revolutionary period in which we live. These are the 'precious balms' which will 'break our heads'.
C. S. Lewis, "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment"

Date: Sat, July 23, 2011 2:49 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "Jeffrey G."

I am not sure what good or maybe bad your trying to promote.


I am promoting the truth, pure and simple. I want to get all of the facts out in the open and on the table for all to see.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with
**     the object of making men happy in the end ... but that it was
**     essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny
**     creature ... and to found that edifice on its unavenged tears:
**     would you consent to be the architect on those conditions?
**     Tell me, and tell me the truth!
**       == Feodor Dostoevski (1821-1881)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Sat, July 23, 2011 6:50 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: Bob O.
Subject: You and Hitchcock

Mister T,

Please get someone's help to hold the camera and take the picture so you can be in it in the market, or any, shots. Hitchcock did it, how about you? I can't help myself when a thought hits me I send it along.

Hello again, Bob,

I've been thinking about that myself. Alas, there are technical problems. I am almost always alone when I go to feed the geese and ducks, so I have to do the photography myself. The camera has a timer function where you can tell it to take a picture in say, 60 seconds, and then get positioned before the shutter snaps. But you cannot predict that the goslings will come to you in 60 seconds. And running back and forth between the camera and goslings would scare them off. You have to sit quietly and let them come to you.

There is a remote control unit for my E-510 camera, which would solve the problem, but Olympus wants $200 for it, which is a total rip-off. It's just a small $2 piece of plastic and silicon and an infrared LED. You get one for free when you buy anybody else's videocam. That is just another one of the many under-handed Olympus tricks to suck more money out of their customers. After you buy the over-priced, over-rated camera body, you find that they demand $200 more for a hand-held remote control unit, and $400 for the flash, and you can't buy a battery grip at any price. Don't buy Olympus. You can get better stuff from Canon, Nikon, or Pentax. Now that I really know what I'm doing, my next camera will be a used Canon 5D.

(As it is, such behavior by Olympus has backfired badly. They have gotten such a bad reputation that nobody will buy their cameras any more. Olympus has discontinued their line of digital single-lens-reflex cameras because they weren't selling, and Olympus was losing money making them. It's over. They still make some smaller cameras, but I don't recommend them either.)

I also bought an Olympus RM-1 remote control unit at Goodwill for a couple of bucks. It works with a lot of other Olympus cameras, but not mine. (Heaven forbid the Olympus customers could solve their problem that cheaply.)

So anyway, I'm still working on the problem. I would like to put the camera on a tripod and get some shots of the goslings and ducklings and me together.

RIP Amy Winehouse. With fame and fortune she could not save herself. Can you comment on any attempts she made to help herself? What did you think of her "Rehab" song lyrics?

I knew nothing about Amy Winehouse. I had heard the name somewhere a couple of times before, but don't remember ever having heard one of her songs. Now I'm going to have to do some historical research and find out who she was.

A friend asked me to attend his 4 year NA anniversary today and while there I was invited to another groups anniversary which immediately followed. Group anniversaries on Long Island are high calorie parties. This one was in a large county park on the south shore. I felt uncomfortable for a short time. In the past I had been a member of both groups but have not been there in probably two years. It is often said that AA will spoil your drinking and I say the Orange-Papers will spoil your meetings. I thought I would never attend another XA meeting but the picnic lasted about five hours and NA picnics include a meeting while AA picnics do not, if memory serves me. I am in the "new comers rescue league" but I do not feel it appropriate to rescue during an XA meeting or activity. Probably half of the fifty people at the meeting were new to me. When I heard members say NA has kept them clean I had the urge to tell them they did it themselves but I doubt they would listen.

Thank you for your work.
Long Island Bob O.

Yes, I would feel strange about going to such functions too. It's hard to listen to all of the Pollyanna jabber about how wonderful "This Program" works without speaking up and telling the truth. That one of the big reasons why I just don't go to 12-Step meetings any more.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
**     I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have
**     finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
**         ==   Buckminster Fuller (1895—1983)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Rodney_R ]

Date: Sun, July 24, 2011 11:37 am     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "Rodney R."
Subject: stuiped is as stuiped does

Undoubtedly, U took along time to find out this stuff in order to prove others wrong,,Well that fine — but don't you think the effort could be used to credit the things that is right in stead of what is wrong,,, Of course it is easier to find the wrong I did that with your writing— (find the wrong in this)- I'm sure you can,,"Judge not lest you be judged" I'm sure you have justified your actions,,thats o.k.— I can only believe that the people around you are probably miserable they more than likely can't do anything right either— You are an intelligent person I'm sure,,Lets not hope your to smart for your on good....Thanks so much for all your encouragement in my search to get and stay sober you have helped me alot...P.S A.A. IS THE ONLY HELP OUT THERE— As your Psychiatrist!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello Rodney,

Thank you for the letter. It is a great demonstration of a bunch of the standard A.A. misinformation and slogans.

  1. A.A. is not THE ONLY HELP OUT THERE. A.A. is a complete failure that kills more alcoholics than it saves. And there are many other better ways to recover. In fact, A.A. is not "help" or "a way to recover". A.A. doesn't work.

  2. "Judge not lest you be judged"
    That is a standard response that cults use to dodge criticism for wrong-doing. If you do not "judge" quack medicine and fraud, then all that you will get for a cure is quack medicine and fraud.

  3. Claiming that critics of A.A. have not invented anything better to help sick people is another standard A.A. lie to avoid the truth, which is that there are many good ways to recover. Start here, and you will get all of the lists of what helps, and what has worked for others: How did you get to where you are?

  4. Lastly, the blatant anti-intellectualism of A.A. is very unbecoming, and it is not helpful to people in recovery: "Lets not hope your to smart for your on good..."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people
**    who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."
**        ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

[The next letter from Rodney_R is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#John_H ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 5:20 am     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "John H."
Subject: Hello

Is this Jack Kennedy from Franklin, Tennessee, a self described investigative reporter and a man with an unclear mission? You seem to have so much to say yet you don't identify yourself.

John H.


Hello John,

No, this is Terrance Hodgins, in Forest Grove, Oregon. I never heard of that reporter, but he does sound like an interesting fellow. I'll have to check him out.

I do identify myself in the web site, many times, but it's just spread out randomly here and there. Here is a list of the autobiographical information: Who are you?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Always do right — this will gratify some and astonish the rest.
**       ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens, 1835-1910)

[The next letter from John_H is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#TBL ]

Date: Sun, July 24, 2011 3:27 am     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: TBLight
Subject: What Can I Say?

Read your so-called papers. Funny, seems that AA is killing everyone that it comes in contact with yet you can't shut them down ('them' being AA) because anyone or group that has any power is out to protect AA hence foiling your tireless effort to save the masses of boozehounds that yearn to be free from alcohol. Yeah, whatever. What a sorry excuse to validate your warped sense of reality.

Hello, TBLight,

Scientology and the Moonies hurt everyone they come into contact with too, and I can't shut them down either.

And who is "protecting" A.A.? And why?

Oh, and just so you can save your breath so to speak, I am not in AA.

So what are you in, or on?

Seems that your common theme in your angry responses is that if someone disagrees with you or exposes you for the paranoid ass that you potray in your writings you go into some tiny-fisted tirade about the originator being an AA minion sent out to destroy you.

No, I do no such thing.

I am sure you can pick out some grammar and spelling errors in my e-mail though. You seem to be the kind of nit-picking miserable fuck that thrives by pointing out other's mistakes (even if it is just spelling and grammar). I await your anger-filled reply.....well, kind of. Actually I'll check back when I have time.

Have a great day, Steve

So what is your problem, Steve? You seem to be in a real bad mood, and you haven't said anything about what might help people who suffer from addictions. You haven't even presented any facts about anything.

Do you approve of criminals and con artists promoting cult religion and quack medicine as a cure for addictions? How about quackery as a cure for cancer or tuberculosis or AIDS or coronary disease? Is that okay?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      If everybody is faking it until they make it,
**      all you are left with is a room full of fakes.
**         ==  Anonymous

[The next letter from TBL is here.]

[The previous letter from Rhonda_R is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Rhonda_R ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 1:59 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "Rhonda R."
Subject: Re: Your anti-AA doctrine

So maybe the AA Big Book is not the answer in itself but it does help because I can interact with others who have quit.

Isn't that what it is all about... learning from others who have quit? How else are we going to end up in the same place at the same time to talk about it?...and it gives me people to hang out with who don't drink...

Even here, your slamming AA just makes me want to know how you quit without it...but in the end it is because of AA that I can interact with you at all...


The bottom line is that in a society that "sells" alcohol all the time, it is very hard to quit. You have to go against the "norm" and that is not easy. You have to ignore movies and co-workers and radio and billboard ads. You have to constantly fight against the current. Of course success will be tough. But it is not AA that is at fault, it is our society's values.

Hello again, Rhonda,

You are still assuming facts not in evidence: namely, that A.A. actually works, and that people at an A.A. meeting can give you real help and good advice in quitting and staying quit. But A.A. does not work, and the advice or "help" that you get there is more likely to make you fail than succeed.

I notice that you did not answer the question about what the success rate of A.A. is.

Just having a few sober people around doesn't prove that A.A. works. You can find a few sober people anywhere.

You talk about learning from others, but what are you learning? Some old cult religion nonsense from the nineteen-thirties? That surrendering to something else will solve your problems? That confessing your sins will make you quit drinking? A.A. is long on such crazy talk but short on success. Cult religion is not a cure for addictions.

A.A. really isn't much different from Scientology. They also claim to have a never-fails cure for addictions, called Narconon, and it is also the jabber of a madman. Narconon is completely ineffective and even very harmful. They do a lot of steam baths and sweats and funny diets and megadoses of vitamins. The Surgeon General has warned that the Narconon routine is nonsense, and it doesn't work and it is very dangerous to your health and may kill you. But Scientology still has some convinced members who swear that Scientology saved their lives. Every cult has such poster children and true believers.

Both A.A. and Scientology have the same evidence that their methods really work: NONE.

How I quit drinking was I decided that I was not going to die that way. A doctor told me, "Quit drinking or die. Choose one." I thought it over for a while, and drank on it some more, and thought about it some more, and then finally decided to quit. So I did.

The rest of the story is here: How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such
**     fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony.
**             Robert Benchley (1889 — 1945)

[The next letter from Rhonda_R is here.]

[The previous letter from James_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#James_B ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 3:02 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "James B."
Subject: Re: Re: Re:




Hello again, James,

I have no desire to work for politicians. Just because I can dissect the propaganda tricks of politicians does not mean that I want to be one.

And I can also dissect the propaganda tricks of cults, but that doesn't mean that I want to join one.

I notice that you still have not supplied even a hint of evidence that A.A. gets the alcoholics sober.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Strength of mind rests in sobriety;
**     for this keeps your reason unclouded by passion.
**       ==  Pythagoras

[The next letter from James_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Plwood ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 8:59 pm     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: Plwood
Subject: AA

I could hardly believe my eyes when I read just a very small portion of your hate paper.......Who in hell do you think you are? I can't imagine anyone with half a brain that would take your ramblings seriously.

If it were'nt for Bill and Dr. Bob, I'd still be drinking. Since AA doesn't seek publicity (it shies away from most publicity, fortune or fame), and since it is a non-religious organization, I can't for the life of me see why you are targeting Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob and AA. I do not think Bill Wilson was insane nor do I think he used AA as a springboard for his own fame. He spent over half his life being dedicated to AA and helping others.

I doubt seriously if you have many believers in what you write. It is so off the wall as to be laughable. I assure you you won't convince the some 2 million plus members all around the world. We all owe our sobriety to AA.

People like you keep trying to rock the boat — you WON'T succeed!

Shame on you for your false statements and hate!

Hello Plwood,

Thank you for the letter. Congratulations on your quitting drinking.

You are obviously very upset at hearing some criticism of Alcoholics Anonymous. Perhaps you would like to supply some evidence in defense of A.A.? Like what is that actual A.A. success rate? How good is A.A. at sobering up the alcoholics, really?

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

(HINT: the answers are here.)

Then you could look at the doctors' reports of what A.A. really does to people. They found that A.A.:

The fact that you don't believe that Bill Wilson was insane, or that Wilson robbed A.A. of everything that he could get, or that Bill Wilson really devoted the second half of his life to selling Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion, only proves that you believe what you wish to believe. Like they say in A.A., "Denial isn't just a river in Egypt."

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If you have to pray for some "Higher Power" or "God" to save you
**     from alcoholism, why is that called a "Self-Help Movement"?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Royski_W ]

Date: Tue, July 26, 2011 6:12 am     (answered 26 July 2011)
From: "royski w."
Subject: hi friend

hello my friend its captain i,d just like to tell you about a new video on you tube just type in anti aa 12 step fraud its a video of an AA sign mysteriously combusting i set it alight and put the queen song slightly mad to go with it its a cool video .

i,m on vacation at the moment but when i get home i,m going to get militant i,m gonna get some cards printed with the websites of smart avrt rational recovery and of course your site among others and have them handed to newcomers i have a friend in the NRL whos going to infiltrate local meetings and exfiltrate newcomers .

the hardcore members in my small town hate me because i questioned everything i will be celebrating 2 years in sept since i went over the wire and now i feel truly truly free like the pictures of the birds you put up on your letters page i love birds ive just been watching the housemartins swooping and diving.

its fab that we have this site and other sites like it ive joined the forum too many many thanks for helping to bring the truth to light orange

blessings to you captain britain

Hi again, Captain,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The Beatles had no genuine musical talent, but were a product
**     shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division
**     (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies
**     which are controlled by British intelligence."
**     —  "Why Your Child Became A Drug Addict", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.,
**     Campaigner Special Report, Copyright 1978
**     That guy really is a paranoid schizophrenic, isn't he?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#UNNAMED ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 5:14 pm     (answered 27 July 2011)
From: "UNNAMED."
Subject: When you quit successfully — a question

Hello Terrance,

I have a question about what your life status was like when you finally quit. Were you working. Did the dead lines in your line of work motivate you do drink or not drink?

Please leave me UNNAMED


In the end, I got so sick that I couldn't work, and couldn't finish jobs, and lost jobs, and then the utilities were turned off, and then I got evicted and was homeless. I was so sick that work deadlines were irrelevant.

So I actually finally quit drinking while homeless.

After going through all of that, I find it funny when some A.A. members start telling me that I wasn't really an alcoholic, because I could quit drinking without A.A.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Instead of fighting to change the world,
**     take on a bigger battle.
**     Become what you want the world to be.

Date: Wed, July 27, 2011 12:59 pm     (answered 30 July 2011)
From: Unnamed
Subject: Re: When you quit successfully — a question

Thank you Terrance. Don't want to go down that road.


Right. I don't recommend it. No fun, and it's bad for your health too.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     There is nothing quite like dying for convincing you that
**     you really need to take better care of your health.

[The next letter from UNNAMED is here.]

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

Saturday Market
Saturday Market

This picture was shot with a widener lens screwed onto the front of an already wide-angle lens, which makes it almost a fish-eye lens. You can see from the curvature of the structures that the picture is getting distorted towards being a fish-eye picture.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Henry_S ]

Date: Tue, July 26, 2011 3:51 pm     (answered 29 July 2011)
From: "Henry S."
Subject: FW: Harry Bingham Stamp

Harry Bingham Stamp honoring an unsung hero who resisted our government's inaction and disregard for Jews during WW II. Pass it on.



Who was Harry Bingham and why is he getting a stamp?

Just an interesting piece of evidence of the curious behavior of the Roosevelt administration toward the Jews during WWII :

A few months ago, Secretary of State Colin Powell gave a posthumous award for "constructive dissent" to Hiram (or Harry) Bingham, IV. For over fifty years, the State Department resisted any attempt to honor Bingham. For them he was an insubordinate member of the US diplomatic service, a dangerous maverick who was eventually demoted. Now, after his death, he has been officially recognized as a hero. Bingham came from an illustrious family. His father (on whom the fictional character Indiana Jones was based) was the archeologist who unearthed the Inca City of Machu Picchu, Peru, in 1911. Harry entered the US diplomatic service and, in 1939, was posted to Marseilles, France, as American Vice-Consul.

The USA was then neutral and, not wishing to annoy Marshal Petain's puppet Vichy regime, President Roosevelt's government ordered its representatives in Marseilles not to grant visas to any Jews. Bingham found this policy immoral and, risking his career, did all in his power to undermine it.

In defiance of his bosses in Washington , he granted over 2,500 USA visas to Jewish and other refugees, including the artists Marc Chagall and Max Ernst and the family of the writer Thomas Mann. He also sheltered Jews in his Marseilles home, and obtained forged identity papers to help Jews in their dangerous journeys across Europe . He worked with the French underground to smuggle Jews out of France into Franco's Spain or across the Mediterranean and even contributed to their expenses out of his own pocket. In 1941, Washington lost patience with him. He was sent to Argentina, where later he continued to annoy his superiors by reporting on the movements of Nazi war criminals.

Eventually, he was forced out of the American diplomatic service completely.

Bingham died almost penniless in 1988. Little was known of his extraordinary activities until his son found some letters in his belongings after his death. He has now been honored by many groups and organizations including the United Nations and the State of Israel.

Please honor his memory and re-send this.

Hello Henry,

Thanks for the message. Yes, I'll pass it on. People like Harry Bingham deserve to be honored. He reminds me of Oskar Schindler, who was made famous by the great movie Schindler's List. Maybe someday somebody will make a movie about Harry Bingham and his work and sacrifices to help the Jews to escape from the Nazis.

Oh, and doesn't this story also tell us that we cannot trust politicians or bureaucrats? President Roosevelt's administration didn't want to annoy Marshal Petain's Nazi puppet Vichy regime? Well why not?

And then Bingham's superiors gave him orders to ignore the Jews, and sacrifice them for political convenience? Now that's cold, really cold.

And what did it profit the politicians in Washington? In spite of all of the cowardly attempts to appease Adolf Hitler, they could not manage to avoid getting into Word War Two.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
**     By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
**       ==  Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

[The previous letter from Michael_P is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Michael_P ]

Date: Tue, July 26, 2011 7:07 pm     (answered 29 July 2011)
From: "Michael P."
Subject: Re: Nail on head

Thanks for the reply. I'll try out some SMART meetings. I'd looked them up before when i saw it mentioned in your pages, and there are some in my area.

Also, not sure if you've ever heard of this branch of AA, but it seems much more up my alley, so I'll probably give some of these meetings a try as well:


They seem to take seriously the "only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking" line. And their FAQ says

"Q. Do you folks work the steps?
A. Some do, some don't...".

"Q. How do these groups make use of the Big Book?
A. Frankly, we don't use it very often. Most of our members find Chapter 4 ("We Agnostics") to be particularly condescending and not helpful to their sobriety...."

Sounds like an AA I could feel more comfortable with.

Hello again, Michael,

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check that Agnostic A.A. out in detail. I like the comments about the chapter "We Agnostics", and not reading the Big Book much. I could get along with them too. They are obviously trying to think for themselves.

The main problem that I have with any subsect of A.A. is that they still call themselves a "12-Step" group, and they still at least give lip service to the whole Alcoholics Anonymous thing. But the 12 Steps are just Dr. Frank Buchman's practices for indoctrinating and brainwashing new converts. No matter how they twist the Steps around and say that they are only worshipping "Good Orderly Direction", A.A. still does not have an actual working program for sobriety.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The theory seems to be that as long as a man is a failure
**     he is one of God's children, but that as soon as he succeeds
**     he is taken over by the Devil.
**       ==  H. L. Mencken

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters251.html#Jane_N ]

Date: Tue, July 26, 2011 11:31 pm     (answered 29 July 2011)
From: Jane
Subject: Why so hateful?

So how bad was your experience in AA that you feel the need to blast it?


Hello Jane,

Thanks for the question. It wasn't that I had such a terrible experience in Alcoholics Anonymous. That isn't why I criticize A.A. I criticize Alcoholics Anonymous because it is a fraud and a hoax and quack medicine that doesn't help people. In fact, A.A. kills more people than it saves.

However, if you want to read about my introduction to A.A. theology by a child rapist, read this.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism,
**    but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling."
**      ==  Dr. George E. Vaillant, formerly a member of the A.A. Board of
**    Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics
**    Anonymous, in "The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns,
**    and Paths to Recovery", Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA,
**    1983, pages 283-286.

Date: Wed, July 27, 2011 2:59 am
From: "jo"

You're a funny little fish aren't you!

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Last updated 8 March 2013.
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