Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXCIX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Michael_G ]

Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 14:49:01     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: Michael_G
Subject: Thank you "How To Deprogram Your Own Mind"


thank You for the article.

Be aware that we know e.g 17 topics (eg education system, politics etc. ) but topics in the world are hundreds and we are made fools in others.

In your article

"When I go to the doctor to get some medical care, I don't expect a big party in the waiting room. I just go get the pills, and then go home. If I want a party, I go someplace else. "

You have to be carefull what you get from your doctor, because the "health system" is not to bring people health but to heal them all their life.


Hello Michael,

Thanks for the note, and thanks for the thanks.

Alas, I can't go along with such a sweeping condemnation of doctors. Now it's true that if my doctor keeps me alive, then he has a paying customer longer, but I don't think that is his primary motivation. I know that my doctor cares more about my welfare.

The one part of the medical establishment that I really see as seeking lifelong addicted customers is the pharmaceutical companies. They are deliberately focussing their efforts on medications that will treat but never cure a variety of diseases like ED, high blood pressure, high cholestrol, and bone loss. Think about things like Viagra, Boneva, Lipitor, and Celebrex. Once a customer starts on those things, he often has to take them for the rest of his life. The pharmaceutical companies have found that such drugs are far more profitable than things like penicillin or Keflex, which cure the disease all too soon (so the patient doesn't buy any more of it).

Consequently, we have no new antibiotics in the development pipeline, while deadly super-bugs are mulitiplying. Soon, you will be able to die from flesh-eating bacteria in a matter of days, while you enjoy low blood pressure and a big hard-on. Ah, the free-market economy. Isn't it wonderful?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**        We are not cured of alcoholism. What we have is a daily reprieve contingent
**        on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we
**        must carry the vision of God's will into all of our daily activities.
**       ==  The Big Book, 3rd & 4th editions, William G. Wilson, Into Action, page 85.
**     Just where did that "vision" come from?
**     Prayer, meditation, belladonna, delirium tremens, LSD, or delusions of grandeur?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:24:04     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: Bob O.
Subject: Words of wisdom from 1964


I graduated from high-school in 1963. During the 1964 presidential campaign my girl-friend's father was a Goldwater supporter who said that he was told if he voted for Goldwater there would be a war. In 1965 he told me they were correct.

Last night I went to a funeral service for a long-time member and supporter of NA who had overdosed Saturday. There were probably 150 people, mostly addicts, in the funeral home for the final service which was lead by a Pastor from a new non-conventional Christian church. One of my thoughts was that if there was a legal way for him to get reliable doses he might be alive. I understand OD is a method of suicide, which I have considered as a reasonable form of exit rather than being eaten alive by cancer. When my father's cancer pain became unbearable he was given enough drugs to quiet him in his bed but what was going on in his mind? I was in a coma due to traumatic brain injury and drug abuse and I have no memory of that time. I am sure I was given more drugs to keep me alive but what was going on in my mind?

I awakened this morning during a frightening dream which I soon forgot. I have awakened with the horrors in the past and soon realize it was a dream and quickly forgot. It would be easy to say forget it but I believed it was real while I was sleeping. I have high blood pressure and I can feel my heart pounding when I awaken. That cannot be good.

Long live the Newcomers Rescue League. You are a better man than I am but I can and will donate to our cause through pay-pal.

Thank you.
Long Island Bob O.

Hello again, Bob,

Thanks for the letter. I don't know if I'm really better, or just more stubborn.

Yes, I'm all for harm reduction and establishing legal ways for addicts to get their drugs. I mean real drugs, too. Fake drugs like methadone have not worked. Obviosly, methadone has not solved the heroin problem. The idea that junkies could be fooled by fake heroin that doesn't get you high was very simplistic and stupid. But that is what the pundits and talking heads have been pushing for more than 50 years.

Now that Washington State and Colorado have legalized pot, we are seeing that the imagined crime wave has not materialized. For 80 years now, the fear-mongers have been telling us about "Reefer Madness" and what a horror story it will be if people smoke pot. Now it turns out that none of those propaganda stories were true.

I'm sure that we can tolerate a certain percentage of the population that is just stoned because they want to be. It's nothing new. It seems to have been going on for thousands of years, and nobody has ever been able to stop it. People seek to get high for quite a variety of reasons, both psychological and medical. Some people are trying to self-medicate to fix mental illness. Some are trying to forget childhood abuse. Some are just trying to feel good. There are a lot of reasons, and I don't think that those unhappy souls are criminals.

I also have one of those "horror recall" dreams every so often. (Just the opposite of "ecstatic recall".) Those old memories die hard. But they are gradually fading out. Thank goodness.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The number of drug overdose deaths has more than tripled in the US
**     since 1990. More than 100 people die of a drug overdose in the US
**     every day.  This increase was not caused by illegal street drugs
**     — the number of deaths from heroin overdose remains relatively
**     constant. The majority of drug overdose deaths in America today are
**     cause by prescription painkillers.  Sales of prescription painkillers
**     in the US have tripled since 1999 — paralleling the tripling
**     of drug overdose deaths.
**     == Project Lazarus, by Kenneth Anderson,
**        blogtalkradio.com, Thu, Jan 5, 2012

[The previous letter from Eva is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Eva ]

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:04:10     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: Eva
Subject: Scholarship/research Integrity

Thank you so much for your response, Orange. I will take your points and digest them and attempt to give the response your reply deserves.

In the meantime, I accept you do not use the Nazi period as a barometer for all that is evil. I apologise for overstating it a bit.

Thank you for not calling me an anti Semite or Nazi and answering my question in such a mature way. The Jewish community who, understandably, get very upset over this could do with an advocate like you.

Anyway, I think I am likely to disagree with you. Evidence obtained from a trial such as Nuremberg is not my idea of reliable, but you have given me a lot of stuff to consider and I will look at it all again and try to read up on your suggested sources.

All the best

Sent from my iPad

Hello again, Eva,

Thanks for the reponse and the compliments.

The Nuremberg War Crimes Trials actually give us very good evidence. The Allies went out of their way to make the trials fair and honest and accurate. They knew that they were writing history, and they wanted the trials to be an example for the world for all time.

The Russians, on the other hand, wanted to just stand all of the Nazis up against the wall and shoot them without trials, and that is what they did to the guards at Auschwitz. The Russians liberated Auschwitz in Poland, not the Americans or British. But in the western part of Europe, the Americans and British prevailed, and they conducted very long, very lengthy, very detailed and well-documented trials that dragged out for years.

Still, that was a good thing to do. To write the history.

Now I am left with the nagging question, "Why do you wish to believe that the Holocaust did not happen?"

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people
**      will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained
**      only for such time as the State can shield the people from
**      the political, economic and/or military consequences of the
**      lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use
**      all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the
**      mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is
**      the greatest enemy of the State."
**         ==  Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

[The next letter from Eva is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Dave_H ]

Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:06:52     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: David H.
Subject: Thank you

Dear Orange

Thank you so much for exposing the truth. I just went to view the green papers and your debate with Green. I had to laugh at Green. Green was personally insulting but you kept your cool.

Hello Dave,

Thanks for the compliments. Ah yes, Green. I had not thought about her in a while.

I find her curious because she is not an alcoholic; she is a member of Al-Anon who just likes to believe that A.A. is the best cure for alcoholism, and she has spent a bunch of energy trying to convince people that I'm wrong about A.A., even though she has never actually quit drinking with the A.A. program. Now why is that?

Readers: The previous letters from Green or about Green are here:

  1. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters90.html#Green
  2. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters181.html#Green
  3. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters274.html#Green
  4. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters358.html#Mari_H
  5. http://www.green-papers.org/rebuttal.htm
  6. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters388.html#ILR

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Wanting to believe is perhaps the most powerful dynamic
**     initiating and sustaining cult-like behavior."
**     The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in
**     American Society, Arthur J. Deikman, M.D., page 137.

May 11, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Canada Geese
A flock of 5 is coming to get some munchies. This group includes one of the cripples with a broken wing. I'm happy to see that it is still doing okay.

Canada Goose goslings
A family with 5 babies
This is the first sighting of babies this year.

Canada Goose goslings
The family with 5 babies

[More bird photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Adam_W ]

Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 09:48:52     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: Adam W.
Subject: Salutations

I realize you get alot of email so hopefully the next line will catch your eye. After 3 days of reading your website I CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE! And here comes the bait and switch....

I, like 73% of my fellow Americans, now conduct the majority of my web searches on a mobile device. In my case an android phone. The problem is your site is filled with tables tables rather than stylesheets that make mobile viewing difficult. In fact most of your html is 10 years out of date. I have been a programmer for 15 years and I would be happy to help you out with a HTML5 compliant rework of the site. I dont need FTP access I can just make the changes and send them to you for approval and upload.

Personally, I would suggest an open source wiki solution to facilitate faster editing, search and easier link management. I can send you an example of what I am talking when I am in front of my desktop. If that option is to your liking we would of course shut off group editing.

Because of the number of AA nutjobs that contact you I assume you have a healthy amount of skepticism at my offer. I will include my number at the end of this email so you can contact me. Im not selling a service or even looking for a linkback. I want to help save some lives.


I have been sober for 14 months and feelibg great. No steps and my involvement with AA has been on a social basis. After they roped me into helping the intergroup by making 2 free hybrid phone apps (as I said im a programmer) I started to see the cult at work. This coupled with the deaths of 6 people in Feb and another 4 in March has woken up the activist inside of me. I have seen sexual predatory behavior, brainwashing, forced participation, child emotional abuse and more.

The last red flag was when a member of Midtown spoke at our areas gratitude breakfast. This person was a member of the old guard there and when a friend of mine who escaped Midtown complained of the choice in speakers he was shut down. In fact the shutdown was public on a facebook group where he was told he was "copping a resentment, go talk to your sponser".

The whole thing is creepy, wierd and I refuse to drink the koolaid (Did I just date myself?).


Hello Adam,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and the offer of help.

I have no desire to strip and compress the web site down to a common denominator where it will fit on an iPhone or any other miniature device. Of course it doesn't fit on an iPhone. Next, it won't fit on a wrist watch.

My answer is, If the web site is difficult to read on an iPhone, then don't read it on an iPhone.

I'm glad to hear that you escaped from the A.A. cult, especially Midtown. That place is a nightmare, and an organized crime unit.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Tim_S ]

Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 01:19:45     (answered 9 May 2014)
From: Tim S.
Subject: 1 year sober-without the steps!

I've written to you before but I've finally found success and wanted to let you know how much the orange papers has helped me. I struggled with alcoholism and drug addiction for years and decided to quit in 2008. I did an outpatient rehab that was only helpful because of the change in my routine, I didn't really learn much from it. I hated AA and quit all of that a month in. I made it about two years on my own but I had issues with untreated depression and relapsed really hard. I kept trying to get help and found out what a sham the recovery industry is. After an 8 week program that they billed my insurance $5,000 for I was kicked out with two sessions to go due to "non-compliance"(I had two small slips in 8 weeks). What I figured out later is that they're running studies on their long term groups (once a week for 18 months) and if you failed or struggled in any way during that 8 weeks they kicked you out. How is that helping people? The ones who were going to quit did and were cherry picked as examples of how great their rehab works and the ones that really needed help and were in serious danger were kicked out and referred to a $20,000 a month inpatient!

So you know what I did? I relapsed hard and spent a lot of time trying to "get" AA. I felt like a failure the entire time and I thought I was going to kill myself because I was so depressed when I was sober. All anyone had to offer was stupid slogans and weird ideas about god. It wasn't until I got on a good anti-depressant and worked with a trained therapist on CBT that I was able to actually quit. Even then my therapist wanted me to do meetings, so I did them for a little while but quit because it was making me doubt myself. I've been sober as a nun for over a year now and it honestly feels great. I love my life, I love how I spend my free time. I read, take pictures, play computer games and spend time with my wife and dogs. I'm even finishing my degree, which is awesome.

You're website is great, I've read all of it. Every time I doubted what some a-hole "professional" was telling me I'd refer to the orange papers. I think the most important thing I've gained from all of your writings is how important it is to think for yourself. I'm not broken or brain damaged because I have substance abuse problems! I read anything I could find on the subject and found my own answers and I'm proud of that. It's not an easy road but that's largely because of all the shitty misinformation out there that everyone just KNOWS is true!

Also it's funny how none of the people I've met in AA keep in touch, I went to someones celebration in october and felt like a pariah. People wouldn't make eye contact with me! The one person I do occasionally talk to didn't even congratulate me on one year, she just asked if I was going to a meeting. What the hell is that?

Anyway thanks for your herculean efforts on this site. It's taught me a lot. Also congratulations on your continued sobriety, it's always inspirational to hear of people who make it going a different (and far more rewarding) road.


Hello Tim,

Thank you for the letter, and thank you for brightening my day. I'm so happy to hear that you have gotten things figured out and arranged your life for the better. That sounds really good.

I'm glad to hear that you found an anti-depressant that works for you. That really is a load off your mind, isn't it?

About them kicking you out of the treatment program with only two sessions to go, in order to improve their statistics: That is commonplace behavior. A corrupt treatment program here in Portland Oregon does the same thing too. They do everything that they can to rig the numbers and make it look like they are producing a good success rate. They cherry-pick who will go into their program, and then, if someone relapses, they erase his name from the rolls and claim that he was never part of the program. They will also claim that he doesn't count because he didn't complete the course of treatment. It's all an attempt to produce good statistics so that they can lobby for more money from the city and state governments. Fortunately, the Oregon Health Plan saw through their fraud and stopped paying for such "treatment".

And yes, the way that A.A. members won't be your friend if you aren't attending their meetings is highly revealing, isn't it? So much for the "fellowship". So much for the "unconditional love" and "complete acceptance".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "So remember: if the treatment is as effective as nothing, is it really a treatment?"
**     ==  "ponderingturtle", James Randi forum, 19th July 2010

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Ronald_K ]

Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 09:00:35     (answered 10 May 2014)
From: Ronald K.
Subject: A A article

Dear Mr./Mrs./ Miss Orange,

I respect your opinion about the 12 steps but I believe this article will do more harm than good mainly because it is inaccurate. Unfortunately Bill did cave into a watered down version of the twelve steps, which is typical of our culture today. Alcoholism and addictions are truly a result of sin not an illness. I know this because I was one for half my life. When I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ and made Him my Lord and Savior He changed me. Jesus took my addictions away and forgave my sins I no longer live that life but at the age of 57 I am graduating seminary. I could not of done any of this on my own, this is all due to Christ and may He receive all the glory.

Hello Ronald,

Thanks for the letter. Alas, when you say that Bill Wilson "did cave into a watered down version of the twelve steps", you are repeating unsubstatiated mythology. The 12 Steps are Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's cult religion recruiting and indoctrination practices, and there is nothing watered-down about them.

The only modifications that Bill did to the 12 Steps in response to criticism were:

  1. Replacing the word "God" in Step 2 with "a power greater than ourselves". That does not change the meaning of the Step.
  2. Then Bill added this qualifier, "as we understood Him" to the word God in Steps 3 and 11. That also does not water down those steps.
  3. Then Bill removed the words "on our knees" from Step 7. The original version of that Step said that we should beg God on our knees. That also does not water down those steps.

Bill Wilson did that in response to the complaints of Jim Burwell, the resident atheist, who complained that Bill Wilson was making A.A. into a religion that would only appeal to religious fanatics.

Do you have any documentation to support your allegation that Bill "watered down" the Steps? Any history books? Any letters from old-timers? Anything? What did the 12 Steps say before Bill supposedly watered them down?

I wonder if you have ever experienced or have any dependency on a substance. It is one of the most helpless feelings you can have, the hole is so deep and hope is lost. I would love to see you take this article off the internet, with all due respect this will only encourage individuals to continue in their addiction and increase their hopelessness.

Yes, I was addicted to alcohol for many years, and to tobacco for even more. I drank for 20 years and smoked for 30. And now I have 13 years clean and sober. So yes, I know what I'm talking about.

And no, I'm not taking my web site down. Many people have said that it helped them, and even saved their lives. People should know the truth. Jesus said, "Learn the truth, and the truth shall set you free." That worked for me.

I do not spread a message of hopelessness. I tell people that they are strong and intelligent and can solve their own problems and do not need to be the slaves of an evil heretical cult religion.

I would love to speak to you more and tell you my whole story if you would like. I pray that you will come to know my Lord Jesus Christ before your time here on earth ends. Remember everyone has eternal life it just a matter of where you will spend it.

Ron K.

Coram Deo
Living all of life before the face of God

Well Ron, because you worship Jesus Christ, you should read the file on The Heresy of the Twelve Steps. Alcoholics Anonymous is a grossly heretical and blasphemous religion that is in conflict with Christianity in many ways. You should be aware of that.

Any religion that tells you that you can worship a rock or a stone idol or a Group Of Drunks as your "G.O.D." is not a Christian religion. More like Satanic.

Any religion that yammers "We are not saints" when criticized for crimes like sexually exploiting young girls is not a Christian religion. More like Satanic.

A.A.'s Step 3 actually resembles selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety. You are supposed to surrender your will and your life to a "god" who can be a Group Of Drunks (or pedophiles, or rapists, or murderers, or whatever...) and that fake god will supposedly perform a miracle for you and make you quit drinking. That is not good.

You are quite welcome to tell me your whole story.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "It is written in the scriptures that God said,
**     'My temple will be called a house of prayer for the people of all nations.'
**     But you have made it into a hideout for thieves!"
**        ==  Jesus Christ, quoted in Mark 11:15.
**             Also see Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Paul_W ]

Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 23:28:05     (answered 10 May 2014)
From: paul w.

Hello A.,

This is quite a bit of real estate you've been attempting to cover. I've only been on the site for a few hours and haven't put a dent in one corner of it.

Quite a piece of work, A.

It'll take me a while, but I'll get back to you... eventually.

(i'm not even sure how big this thing of yours even is, yet)

thank you for inserting all the hyperlinks and footnotes. not everyone with good material bothers.

paul w.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the thanks. Enjoy.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We must think things, not words, or at least we must constantly
**     translate our words into the facts for which they stand, if we
**     are to keep the real and the true.
**       == Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
**          address, New York State Bar Association, Jan 17, 1889.

May 11, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Greylag Goose + Canada Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose, and his wife who is faithfully following him.

Greylag Goose + Canada Goose
Gus and wife

Canada Goose goslings
A family with 2 goslings
These goslings are older and larger than the previous family's babies. These offspring are at least a week old. They actually double in size in the first week of life.

[The story of the birds continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Jim_McP ]

Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 09:27:55     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: jim mcp.
Subject: Stats.

Hi Terrance,

I hope things are continuing to grow!

I can't for some reason pull up the monthly stats from your site....It keeps coming up "This page is forbidden".

Now you know the historic JOY I have had in the frequent noting of your growth......so obviously you can feel my pain!!

Any ideas on the problem? If not; don't worry; but could you let me know the figures for the last 3 / 4 Months? I'd really appreciate it.

Keep going, for goodness sake!!!!!!


Hello Jim,

Thanks for the note. Yes, I know what is going on. I moved the web site to a new host. That is a very good thing. A friend/fellow reader has a hosting service in Denver and he offered to host the Orange Papers. It's wonderful to get off of Hostmonster.com where they put too many customers on too few machines and things slow to a crawl, and then they lie and say that it is your fault.

The new host is lightly-loaded and fast and responsive. And great. And has extremely tight security, which has already come in handy, because somebody already tried to hijack the domain name. But failed.

But alas, there are a few things that the new host system does not run, like Cpanel and Webalizer. It has Awstats, but I still have to get around to figuring out how to configure that for public viewing. Right now I'm still fighting with getting a better email system working. As you can see, I'm getting emails, but I can't send a letter with an attached web page answer without using some other service like Inbox.com, which I'm temporarily using to send answers.

So I'll get Awstats fixed pretty soon. By the way, expect about a 10% drop in the numbers when we start using that. Webalizer counted all hits; Awstats doesn't count the hits from spiders and web-crawlers like the Google search engines. (And Yahoo, Lycos, etc.) And Google searches my site like mad. In the beginning, it took 6 months to get them to index my site. Now they search it daily, and generate a lot of hits. Go figure.

Just offhand, I don't have a clue what the numbers are from the last four months. I haven't seen any stats either.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have
**     carefully considered what they do not say.
**         ==  William W. Watt
**     (Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 09:14:13     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: Bob O.
Subject: "Toking with Lawrence Welk"


My father enjoyed the Lawrence Welk Show when I was young and we saw him in Long Island waters on his yacht and he waved to everyone. I just watched Gail and Dale sing "One toke over the line" on his show on Youtube. Welk called it a modern spiritual. He must have learned the truth. It may have been a live show so the sensors were powerless, if they understood.

Thank you for your strength to continue to tell the truth over and over and over...... You are a better man than I am. I will send some financial help when I can but "Big brother" now has traffic cameras that take pictures of us and that has cost me $150.

Peace and love.
Long Island Bob O.

Hello again, Bob,

"One Toke Over The Line" on the Lawrence Welk Show? Now that is funny. I didn't know that. (But then, I never watched the Welk show. It kind of made me want to barf.)

That sounds like it came from that short sliver of time where everybody was trying to be so hip. (Late sixties or early seventies.) It was the new style, and everybody had to look hip if he was to appear cool. They even had "The Mod Squad", where hip-looking young people were really cops. (Thank God that passed. We had more phoney hippies than you could shake a stick at.)

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. It makes me glad that I ride a bike. The cops don't even look at me. (And no gas expenses, or oil, or insurance. And repairs consist of going to Goodwill and buying a new tire and tube. :-)

But of course I realize that a lot of people simply cannot give up the car and bike. That I can is one of the benefits of living in a very small town.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Even if you are a religious organization, secular laws still apply
**     to you.  If, for instance, you believe in doing human sacrifices
**     for the Summer Solstice, you are not allowed to do that.
**       ==  Lisa Mackilroy, Think Out Loud, NPR, 9:24 AM, 30 September 2011.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Steve_C ]

Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 03:41:33     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: steve c.
Subject: RE: Account details for Kat3566 at www.orange-papers.info (pending admin approval)

Can you please approve my registration. Been reading the Orange Papers for years now off and on. I was unfortunately indoctrinated, (brainwashed), into AA when I was a naive 21 year old. I am 48 now and because of my admission to being an alcoholic, and immersing myself at an early age into that cult I have paid nearly with my very life. My wife is 43 and they got her at 19 so we have both been reading and re-reading your papers.

I know many people who are dead because of the insanity that is Alcoholics Anonymous, we were almost among them. We can't thank you enough for speaking the truth. Like George Orwell said, "When you live in a world of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act". Thanks for being a revolutionary. : )


Hello KAT,

Thanks for the thanks, and yes, you are approved and authorized in the forum now. So you can post all you want.

I'm glad to hear that you and your wife have escaped from the cult. That is good.

That quote from George Orwell is one of my favorites. More quotes follow.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range
**     of thought? Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year
**     2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who
**     could understand such a conversation as we are having now? The whole
**     climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no
**     thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking —
**     not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."
**       ==  George Orwell's 1984, Syme, pages 46-47
**     "Indeed, so long as they are not permitted to have standards of comparison,
**     they never even become aware that they are oppressed."
**       ==  George Orwell 1984
**     "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."
**       ==  George Orwell
**     "A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not
**     triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler
**     than the forces which destroy him."
**       ==  George Orwell

[The previous letter from Carl_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Carl_B ]

Date: 9 May 2014     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: Carl B.

I don't know where you acquired it, but you have one of the most severe resentments I have ever seen.

Or are you in it for the money? And since you 'attempt' to remain anonymous, you are also full of fear.

I can tell you live a mellow life. Ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello again, Carl,

That line about resentments is funny. Steppers are forever yammering, "You have a resentment." Here is the list: Accusations of "you have a resentment".

So what? What does it matter if I have a resentment? Does my head explode? Do I instantly relapse and drink? That can't be true, because I have 13 years sober now, and I'm better than ever.

No, I'm not in it for the money. I don't make a penny off of the web site. It is much more an expense, and a zillion hours of work for free.

I'm not anonymous. I have revealed my birth name many, many times. (You haven't actually read much of the web site that you are criticizing, have you?) Look here for a few examples:

  1. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters193.html#realname

  2. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters299.html#Wes_O

  3. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters368.html#Michael_B2

  4. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters371.html#Sara_K

  5. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters378.html#Eoghan

My legal name is Terrance Hodgins and I live in rural Oregon.

Now I wonder why, when Steppers practice anonymity, it is "wonderful anonymous spirituality", but when a critic of A.A. practices anonymity, it is "fear" and "cowardice"? Now why is that? Can you say "hypocrisy"? I knew you could say that.

And yes, my life is mellow. I'm just finishing a few letters and then I'm going out to the Fernhill Wetlands to feed my little feathered friends and see if we have any new ducklings or goslings this year.

So have a good day now. I'm going to.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths,
**      but how myths operate in men's minds without their
**      being aware of the fact."
**       ==  Claude Lévi-Strauss, The Raw and the Cooked [1964], Overture.

[The previous letter from Thomas_C is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Thomas_C ]

Date: May 8, 2014, 4:00 AM     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: Thomas C.
Re: reply from Orange Papers

We don't keep records.

There are a couple of reasons which I am not going to go into.

80% of the people I was close to 30 years ago are sober. That's a fact. We have stayed in contact and Facebook has facilitated that — made it easier.

We have been to the funerals together of people who choose not to thoroughly follow our path.

I'm sorry this bothers you, but it's true. AA helps a lot if people. Rarely have we seen a person fail.

Again, my experience — even though it is my story — is valid evidence.

AA will continue to help people no matter what your uniformed opinion is.

What I don't understand what is your motivation to disparage this? There are a lot of things I don't like or agree with, but I don't attack them.

So we don't keep records, so what. I just told you my factual experience and you imply I am a liar.

Thank you for these conversations, but I want to end them.


Sent from my iPhone2

Date: May 9, 2014, 11:54 AM     (answered 12 May 2014)
From: Thomas C.
Re: reply from Orange Papers


I haven't had a drink in 30 years.

You're a idiot

Sent from my iPhone

Hello again, Thomas,

You keep on claiming that you have evidence, and then you insist that you do not keep records. Even relying on your own memory is claiming that you have some kind of records.

You are also assuming that your memory works perfectly, in spite of God-only-knows how much drinking you did and how much brain damage you suffered. I know that when I quit drinking, my memory was very cloudy, and I suffered real gaps in my memory. You are claiming that your memory is flawless and that you accurately remember everything from 30 years ago with crystal clarity? Not likely, unless you didn't actually drink much alcohol, in which case you weren't really an alcoholic. That would explain a lot. It's easy to cure a bunch of non-alcoholics of "alcoholism".

By the way, I notice that this time, you added a qualifier to your statement: "80% of the people I was close to 30 years ago are sober." That you were close to? And what percentage of the newcomers was that? Stating that 80% of your close friends are sober is a very different thing than claiming that 80% of those who joined when you did are sober, which is what you said in a previous letter. Heck, 100% of my close friends are sober, and they do it without A.A. or any cult religion.

If all that you are now claiming is that 80% of your small circle of close friends are sober, then that is a meaningless statement. Your small number of close friends doesn't indicate what the A.A. success rate is.

To claim that 80% of the people who joined when you did, 1982 — 1985, are still sober requires some kind of lists of those who joined, and those who relapsed, and those who left A.A. in disgust, and those who stayed sober in A.A., and those who stayed drunk in A.A. And also those who claimed to be sober but who secretly drank between meetings.

So let's see the lists. Write them down. You don't have to violate anyone's anonymity, just give first names and initials, and the dates joined and left or died, but let's see your lists. How many people joined your A.A. group in the years 1982 through 1985? And how many are left? And how many of them are sober? And how can you tell whether they are sneaking drinks inbetween Facebook messages to you?

You expect me to trust your memory when you claim to have a much, much higher success rate than anybody else in the whole world has ever gotten? Not likely.

A.A. does not help people. A.A. misleads people and misinforms them and fear mongers and says that you will die drunk unless you "thoroughly" follow the A.A. cult religion path. That is not good.

A.A. raises the rates of binge drinking and death. That is not good.

A.A. even kills people by telling them not to take their medications. "Don't take medications. Meds quiet the still small voice of God. Trust the 12 Steps to heal you." That has caused many deaths. That is not good.

My motives are to get the truth out for all to see.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast;
**     a wild beast may wound your body,
**       but an evil friend will wound your mind.
**         ==  Buddha

[The next letter from Thomas_C is here.]

May 11, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Canada Goose goslings
The older family of 2.

Canada Goose goslings
A younger family of 2. These little guys are maybe 4 or 5 days old.

Canada Goose goslings

[The story of the birds continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#Teresa_S ]

Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:01:55 (PDT)     (answered 13 May 2014)
Subject: approval for teresa s.

i agree with eveything you are saying about na/aa.. my boyfriend of 10 years just recently left me after i stood by him during all the hard times.. na convinced him i was a trigger for him and i have never done drugs in my life nor am i a drinker.. he walked out without second thought.. they have him brainwashed and there is nothing i can do.. i have gotten threats thru bogus fb names over and over.. what can i do to try and get these meetings stopped

Hello Teresa,

Thanks for the note, and you are now authorized to post in the OP forum.

I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties and suffering that you are going through. Your best weapon in the battle is true information, and spreading that information around. The only reason that the 12-Step cult thrives is because they have an excellent publicity machine that has been bragging about A.A. and how great it is for more than 70 years now. They plant plugs for A.A. and N.A. in movies and TV programs and magazines and forums, whereever they can.

The way that they treated you is typical. All cults seek to socially isolate their victims, and restrict the victims' sources of information. (Also see this.) Of course you are not a trigger. But what you are is someone who has not drunk the koolaid, and you just might tell your ex-friend the truth, which a cult cannot stand. If you tell the truth, you might break the spell. So they want you gone.

Cults are also notorious for "enemy-making" and devaluing and attacking those who disagree with the cult. Steppers do it too, as you have already noticed. (Look here.)

What can you do? If A.A. or N.A. are meeting at a church, you should make the priest or pastor aware of what is really going on. The file on The Heresy of the Twelve Steps may help.

Then you can work at making your local authority figures aware of the truth. That means local politicians who fund rehab programs, and judges who sentence people to A.A. and N.A., and people who administer charities and dispense funds to rehab centers.

And you can post the truth everywhere and anywhere, from newspaper forums and comments sections to web sites that get a lot of traffic. (The Steppers already do that.) And radio talk shows.

And don't forget your Senators and Congresspersons.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Confidence in Truth
**     From the habit of speaking truthfully confidence is acquired, since
**     there is no need then to dissemble or conceal the truth. Moreover,
**     the speaker of truth inspires confidence in others who come to know
**     that they may rely implicitly on his words.
**       ==  Hammalawa Saddatissa, "Right Speech"
**           Daily Dharma December 27, 2012
**      http://www.tricycle.com/onpractice/right-speech-how-workable-is-it 

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html#William_N ]

Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 11:42:11     (answered 11 May 2014)
From: william N.
Subject: Another AA Indictment From The NYT

Hi Orange,

Hope you're enjoying a nice spring day today. I live in NJ and man, we've had a long winter. Finally it's getting nice here in the mid-Atlantic states. This means, of course, that the spring bird migration is finally picking up so I've been out and about (like you) enjoying the sights and songs of our feathered friends.

On to business....here's a link to a review of yet another anti-AA book. 'The Sober Truth': Seeing Bad Science in Rehab

'The Sober Truth': Seeing Bad Science in Rehab
A polemical book about addiction favors psychodynamic therapy over Alcoholics Anonymous and similar 12-step programs.

View on www.nytimes.com
Preview by Yahoo

For me, the main takeaway from this article, other than the reviewer doesn't like the book, is that the AA wall of deception and craziness is finally tumbling down.

So that's it. Just a heads up. Hope you're doing well and I look forward to reading more Orange Papers.


Hi again, Bill,

Thanks for the tip.

Yes, the reviewer says:

Did you know that the most widely accepted treatments for alcohol and drug addiction — Alcoholics Anonymous and similar 12-step programs — rest on the flimsiest of scientific evidence? I didn't.

Now unfortunately, the reviewer did not pursue that thread to its logical conclusion: That A.A. just does not work, and is quack medicine, based on no valid evidence at all. A.A. is very popular quack medicine, but quackery nonetheless.

Then the reviewer said,

Even if one grants that A.A. and 12-step programs are helpful only to those patients who adhere to them, surely that is better than nothing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. A.A. is much worse than nothing when A.A. raises the death rate in alcoholics, and raises the rate of binge drinking, and the suicide rate, and the divorce rate. I'll take "no treatment" over that any day.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Time's glory is to calm contending kings,
**     To unmask falsehood, and bring truth to light.
**       ==  William Shakespeare  (1564—1616), The Rape of Lucrece, Line 939

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Last updated 17 December 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters399.html