Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXXXVI

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#John_F ]

Date: Wed, January 15, 2014 8:50 am     (answered 16 January 2014)
From: "john f."
Subject: AA rejection

Are there any studies/surveys you can recommend that list reasons so many new-comers drop our or never start AA? I believe it is due to Christianity taking even more control of AA, but would like to see if there is evidence for that.
john f.

Hello John,

Thanks for a fascinating question. Unfortunately, I don't have a fascinating answer. I don't know of any study or survey that investigated why people quit A.A.

I imagine that there are a lot of different reasons for people quitting A.A. Different people are put off by different things.

And the "Christianity" issue is confused and unclear. It really depends on what you think the word "Christianity" means. Not every religious fanatic or dogmatic fundamentalist or evangelist is a Christian. Some of them are very unChristian, more like Nazis or Satan-worshippers.

Some people actually quit A.A. because A.A. is not Christian enough (in the good sense of Christian morals). They are offended by everything from the totem-worshipping "any Higher Power" theology to sexual exploitation of newcomer girls to the "gimme-gimme" Santa-Claus spirituality of the nutcases who think that they can get everything they want by praying.

I know that other people have quit A.A. because of abusive dominant local leaders, sexual predators, thieving con artists, mindless slogan-slingers, and dangerous crazies, and of course the criminals whom the judges sentence to A.A. meetings.

And then some people found that A.A. just didn't help them to stay sober. Other people found that A.A. was making them feel worse. And others quit when they realized that A.A. was just a repackaged old cult religion that actually had nothing to do with drinking alcohol. And then there are the unfortunate people who quit A.A. by dying after their sponsor told them not to take their medications.

The A.A. horror stories tell of a lot of different reasons for people quitting A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "It finally dawned on me that just because one's motive
**     isn't money doesn't mean one's motive isn't selfish.
**     (There is more than one form of profit.)"
**        ==  Janet S.

BLOG NOTE: 2014.01.17:

The Orange Papers is changing hosts. I'm finally getting this web site off of Hostmonster.com, because of their terrible and dishonest service. It turns out that Hostmonster is an overseller, meaning that they promise you the moon to get you to sign up with them, and then they break all of their promises after they get you. Which means that Hostmonster is to web hosting sort of what A.A. is to recovery.

And Hostmonster "oversells" their services in the sense of they overload their server machines by putting more customers on a machine than the machine can properly handle. Thus the web pages get served out very slowly when several web sites get busy. People find themselves waiting and waiting for a page to load. And the forum and email are even worse. And then, even more worse, their technicians are incompetent and break things while "fixing" things. I've gone several days at a time being unable to access my email.

Then it turns out that the positive endorsements that attracted me to Hostmonster were paid for. That is, they bribe people to say good things about Hostmonster. It's all a racket and a fraud.

By the way, Hostmonster.com, Bluehost.com, and FastDomain.com are all the same company, and their major claim to fame is that they got a patent on a new technique for throttling user accounts and limiting the number of CPU cycles that the users can get. That is so that they can put more users on a machine and no one user gets more than a certain number of cycles. Thus everybody runs equally slowly.

Then, when you complain that things aren't working right, the wage slaves at the Hostmonster "help line" are required to read scripts that say that everything looks fine at their end, so I must be having network problems at my end. The scripts also tell customers that the reason their cgi-bin or Wordpress sites are running slowly is because the customer's scripts are "inefficient", and if the customer would just fix his scripts, things would run faster. That is a lie.

Then, Hostmonster recommends that you buy a more expensive hosting contract on a "premium" machine if you want your web site to be fast.

If you want to learn more, you can google Hostmonster.com reviews. Especially see:

Well, fortunately, I got a generous offer from another web hoster to host the entire Orange Papers site on his system. I'm in the process of moving things over to the new host now.

The final straw was yesterday when Hostmonster decided that they were going to automatically renew my expiring contract and sell me two more years of service at an increased price,

I never authorized Hostmonster to auto-renew anything, or to charge my account without my permission or approval. They are just that dishonest and money-grubbing and arrogant. I hear that they charge people's credit cards the same way too. They claim the right to sell you things without asking whether you want them.

charged me a $29 overdraft fee.

my money to any lying crook who says that he should get my money. Worse yet, they will try to raid my bank account and overdraw the account while trying to get more money for the crook. That is unacceptable. That is unbelievable misbehavior. What happened to certifications? What happened to authorizations? What happened to passwords?

$29 overdraft fee.) Hostmonster responded by informing me that the "auto-renew failed." So yesterday, as I was downloading files from my web site, Hostmonster started heavily throttling my account, and suddenly, it wasn't serving web pages, and the forum was inaccessible, and email was unreadable, and my SSH connections were broken. I guess Hostmonster is going to do their best to make it difficult for me to move my web site away from them. Just a little revenge.

So things may be a little rough and erratic for the next week or so as I get things switched over. You don't need to do anything special. The domain name will remain the same. The only way you will know that the web site has moved to the new host system is that the service will suddenly get better — none of that really slow loading of pages of the forum — and if you check closely, you will see that the IP number of the host has changed.

Thank goodness that I own the Orange-Papers domain names totally independently of Hostmonster. Do not register your domain names with Hostmonster either. You may not be able to get them back, because Hostmonster registers your domain names as owned by Hostmonster, which is another fraud that they perpetrate. You buy the domain name and pay for it, and then Hostmonster registers the domain name as their property. They have the Domain Name Authorization Code, and you don't, and you may never be able to take control of the domain name. I use Omnis.com, and they are good, and honest, and they don't play games with your domain names.

I'm going to try hard to make sure that no forum posts are lost during the transfer. That is the tricky part. (Copying over the static pages and pictures is easy.) It may be necessary to shut down the forum and hold it in maintenance mode for a day or two while we switch over. We shall see.

So that's what is happening. I'll sure be glad when this is over and done.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

January 05, 2014, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Bald Eagles
Bald Eagles
Oh yes! Guess who is back? I am hoping for another Eagle chick this year. I am ready with a 5.25-inch Meade reflecting telescope for some real telephoto shots.

Eagles Nest
The Eagles' Nest, and the pair of Eagles
Notice how the Eagles' nest is built in a tree with a very unusual 7-way fork. The nest is securely supported on all sides. No way is it going to just suddenly fall out of the tree, or get blown out by a windstorm. I don't think even an earthquake would dislodge that nest. The Eagles know what they are doing when they build a nest.

Bald Eagles
The Bald Eagle Pair

Bald Eagle Pair
The Bald Eagle Pair

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Nathan_A ]

Date: Thu, January 16, 2014 6:45 am     (answered 18 January 2014)
From: "Nathan A."
Subject: Hi

Just curious. Why do u dislike AA so much? Also, what treatment course would u recommend?
Thanks, Nathan A.

Hello Nathan,

Thanks for the questions. I hope you are doing well.

First off, I dislike A.A. because it is a fraud. It is just quack medicine. It is an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties that pretends to be a cure for alcohol addiction.

Imagine how you would feel if your mother or your sister was sick with cancer and you discovered that the doctor that she was going to was a fraud who never went to medical school and he was just selling some old quack cures from the nineteen-thirties. Wouldn't you dislike him a little bit as she got sicker and sicker and he just kept grinning and saying, "Just take more of the medicine."

A.A. (and N.A.) actually do a great deal of harm. See these lists of letters that I have received about A.A. and N.A. and Al-Anon:

  1. A.A. Horror Stories
  2. A.A. "No Meds" Stories
  3. A.A. Suicides
  4. Stories of the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous
  5. Stories about Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group. And the Atlantic Group, Foxhall Group, Badger Group, and Nursery...

And then A.A. has repeatedly been proven to be useless and worse, downright harmful:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.
  4. Drs. Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour, telling him to quit drinking or he would die, was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
    (Maybe not coincidentally, that is the real treatment that I got, and maybe it worked. If any "treatment" had anything to do with my recovery, that was it.)
  5. Dr. George E. Vaillant the A.A. Trustee found that A.A. treatment was completely ineffective, and raised the death rate in alcoholics.

What course of treatment? Who says that you need a course of treatment? Really. This whole thing about everybody needing "treatment" is another part of the fraud. The treatment centers rake in $20 billion per year (just in the USA) while selling an old cult religion as the "treatment".

The truth is, most successful people recover from alcohol abuse (and drug abuse) without any treatment:

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:

...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.

The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:

On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.

If you still want to join some group and get some ideas for practices or things to do, I have several things for you:

  1. How did you get to where you are? This was a letter written when I had my 10th-year anniversary off of alcohol, tobacco, and all other drugs.

  2. The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster This tells how our addictive minds work.

  3. The list of secular, non-cult, recovery groups: https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html.

  4. And the books The Small Book and Rational Recovery may be helpful. In fact, look at the whole "top 10" list. The books from SOS and SMART are good too. And Stanton Peele has just published a new book that I haven't seen yet, about "Recover! Stop Thinking Like an Addict" by Stanton Peele and Ilse Thompson. I know that is going to be good because everything by Stanton Peele is good.

Write back if you have any more questions.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Wonderful little our fathers knew,
**     Half their remedies cured you dead —
**     Most of their teaching was quite untrue.
**       ==  Rudyard Kipling, Our Fathers of Old, Stanza 3

[The next letter from Nathan_A is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Paul_R ]

(From Gmail)
Date: Jan 11     (answered 18 January 2014)
From: paul r.

I stumbled across some of your content and was struck with some observations. You are intelligent and articulate and have an obvious flare for research, but your use of derogatory and aggressive terms towards others with whom you disagree taint the credibility of your work and actually emulate the very traits you attribute to others. I am not attacking, I am giving you an honest assessment and I hope a helpful one.

I am just a man, like you. I have no definite answers. I struggled with questions of purpose faith and destiny. I was a skeptic. But it came down to this simple question with regard to all the fuss in our world about God and religion....Is God a reality or not? I approached that question with an open mind, and tried a "spiritual experiment" because if God is real He exists in the Spirit, and I had to try to be in that medium in order to explore the issue. I examined the evidence for and against God, and logically and intellectually determined there was enough evidence for the possible existence of God that it was worth doing the experiment. The critical realization was that if God is the biggest fallacy of all time, perpetrated by ....(I could not really imagine who would be the perpetrator, that was part of what led to my ultimate conclusions)....then human life has no purpose or meaning but is a cosmic accident and I am destined to culminate my life as being worm food and nothing more. If however, God does exist, then somehow connecting with and maintaining ongoing and constant communication with that God would be the most important thing any person could do. So the experiment began. I tried to bring my spiritual aspect of myself into focus, I tried to "pray" to think in my mind about God as a creator of all things, and to talk to Him, in my mind, as if he were real, openly saying to the God I did not know if He was there or not, that I was doubtful at best but open to his reality if He was in fact real, and I asked Him to somehow communicate with me or touch me in some way that would confirm for me that He existed. The key for me was to do this with an open mind like any good scientific experiment dictates. One cannot do a true experiment without allowing for and accepting the results to speak for themselves. One must have a hypothesis of course,the question is the reason for the experiment, but it must be a question not a pre determined and assumed outcome that is sought. Some of the most remarkable discoveries of all time were results that were contrary to the initial hypothesis, and I had to be willing to accept what results were manifest from my "spiritual experiment".

I conducted this experiment on a daily basis, first thing in the morning, spiritually reaching out to "God", sending out messages hoping for a sign of spiritual life to return, and I did the same just before going to sleep at night. Maybe 5 minutes or so at each session. I resolved to do this for at least 2 weeks, but made the concession that I must be diligent, and if I broke the chain of sessions as described, I had to start over, just like I had to start a chemistry experiment over if I messed up the protocol along the way.

I have taken a good amount of time writing this up for you but I am going to stop here without describing my results. I think it would be quite interesting for you and I to compare results and I do not want to influence you in any way. This is not a pitch, it is a challenge to you to do something outside the box, and regardless of the outcome, you will benefit from the exercise and experience.

I hope you will accept this challenge and I look forward to hearing from you and comparing our results.



cell 520-xxx-xxxx

Hello Paul,

Thank you for the letter.

Starting at the top, yes, sometimes I am a little emotional as I denounce frauds who kill sick people with quack medicine. That is because I care. It's sad that so few people do care anymore. The author of men's books Sam Keen talked about "the fire in the belly". Unfortunately, a lot of fires have gone out.

Now about your experiment in theology: First off, you did not define the word "God". That word means different things to different people.

For example, if "God" is the creator of the Universe, then yes, those forces exist. The Strong and Weak Nuclear forces exist, and Gravity, and Electromagnetic Energy, yes the things that created the Universe do exist.

But I don't think that is what you meant by the word "God", is it? I think you are talking about a ghost whom you believe talks back to you.

Have you ever heard the old saying, "When you talk to God, that is called prayer. When God talks back to you, that is called Schizophrenia."

What you are conducting is an experiment in self-delusion. It is easy to get yourself to imagine all kinds of things. You can repeat that same experiment and convince yourself that there really is a Devil, and that he is whispering things to you all of the time. No joke. Try it. Pretty soon you will be talking to Satan.

Also consider the fact that many people mistake their base brain talking to them for someone else talking to them, someone like a God or a Devil, or a Saint, or the Virgin Mary. Read about the base brain's jabber here: The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster.

(Incidentally, the A.A. founder Bill Wilson imagined himself a medium who talked to Boniface the Medieval Monk, and dead sailors, and all kinds of demons and angels.)

The biggest fallacy in your thinking about God is that you are assuming that you know what God is, and that God is some kind of being who will talk to you. You said,

The critical realization was that if God is the biggest fallacy of all time, perpetrated by ....(I could not really imagine who would be the perpetrator, that was part of what led to my ultimate conclusions)....then human life has no purpose or meaning but is a cosmic accident and I am destined to culminate my life as being worm food and nothing more. If however, God does exist, then somehow connecting with and maintaining ongoing and constant communication with that God would be the most important thing any person could do.

That assumes that God has nothing better to do than talk to people. Suppose God is really busy with Martians or blue-green algae on the planet orbiting Alpha Centauri? Humans are unbelievably arrogant when they assume that God has to answer their psychic telephone calls immediately. Maybe God just doesn't talk on a psychic cell phone.

What if your real life's work is to develop yourself, and make yourself into the best, most moral and effective and hard-working person you can be? What if talking to spirits or Gods is a waste of time, and not what you are supposed to be doing?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: Please do not write to me at Google Gmail. I only use that account as a spam bucket, and letters to me there may go unread for months. Use the email address below:

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism.
**     From a barbaric bronze-age text known as the Old Testament, three antihuman
**     religions have evolved — Judaiism, Christianity, and Islam. These are
**     sky-god religions. They are, literally, patriarchial — God is the
**     omnipotent father — hence the loathing of women for 2,000 years in those
**     countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates."
**       ==  Gore Vidal

[The next letter from Paul_R is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Veauamil ]

(from Google Gmail)
Date: Thu, January 16, 2014 8:04 am     (answered 18 January 2014)
From: Veauamil illè P.

Such a sorely disillusioned individual. How miserable you must be, interpreting everything through the mind of a conspiracy theorist and not even enough sense to simply face reality as it is IN ANY GIVEN MOMENT and accept it for an opportunity for YOU TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE! Instead, easier to rant and rave about how thaw cultists and the conspiracists are damaging the world and brainwashing the people. It's likely that you probably ought to have been institutionalized years ago for both your safety and the safety of people around you. I pity you. But only because you are pathetic.


Hello Veauamil,

You haven't actually said anything there. Nothing about whether quack medicine really works to cure diseases, or whether an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties really works as a "treatment" for the "disease" of alcohol abuse.

Would you care to talk about the real issues?

I thought not.

By the way, your pseudo-spiritual slogan about "simply face reality as it is IN ANY GIVEN MOMENT and accept it for an opportunity for YOU TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!" is exactly what I am doing with my life. I live in reality as it is, and I run a web site that warns people about the frauds and quackery that con artists are passing off as a "cure" or "treatment" for alcohol abuse and drug addiction. I hear that is making a difference.

(That kind of talk — the buzz-words about "simply face reality" and "accept an opportunity" is just what the fake guru "Werner Erhard" (real name Jack Rosenberg) sold as the "new age" philosophy that he called "est". Look here for more about him.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: Please do not write to me at Google Gmail. I only use that account as a spam bucket, and letters to me there may go unread for months. Use the email address below:

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of addiction, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.

January 05, 2014, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Great Egret
A Great Egret

Great Egret
A Great Egret

Gus the Greylag Goose + Canada Goose
Gus and a friend.
I'm getting confused. I'm not sure if that is Mrs Gus or not. Perhaps it isn't Mrs. Gus, perhaps she did die last spring. But maybe this female Canada Goose will be his new wife. Whichever it is, I hope he is happy. He doesn't look like he's doing too badly here. At least he has a female following him around.

Gus the Greylag Goose + Canada Goose
Gus and his friend are getting a meal of rolled oats.
Now in this picture she looks more like Mrs. Gus again. (The white patch on the side of her head seems to be changing shape.) Well, either it's Mrs. Gus, or a strong look-alike. She makes me wish she could talk, so I could ask her.

And the thing is, she sure is acting like Mrs. Gus. Male and female Canada Geese do not just hang out together unless they are a mated pair (or brother and sister when they are young). When you see a male and a female Canada Goose hanging out together, you can bet money that they are a mated pair. And remember that they mate for life, and they are really good at staying faithful to their mate. Far better than people.

Whoever she is, let's just hope for lots of cute little goslings in a few more months.

I'm getting the feeling that spring is coming early this year. It's only mid-January, and the Eagle pair are already here, and Gus and his lady are hanging out together. At this rate, we may have babies very early in the spring.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#No_Name ]

Date: Fri, January 17, 2014 10:56 pm     (answered 19 January 2014)
From: "No_Name."
Subject: Dude, SERIOUSLY? Chill!

I have been reading your blog against the wishes and advice of my sponsor. Your blog pisses off my sponsor and his sponsor and most of the folks in my home group too. Since it was talked about SO much I decided to have a look-see.

Gotta say two things — One, I don't completely disagree with you about AA. I have seen some scary cult like things. I am disliked by some for refusing to stop taking my Paxil and there are some who tune me out and or cough loudly when I share and I am almost never called on to share. Since I refused to stop taking my anti depressants, man. So I don't think you are one hundred percent off base, K?

Numero Dos — why all the intensity and hate? Ouch, dude, you live in Oregon man. Can't you garden or protest or do something liberal with your time? Why the focus of all your energies on AA? Seriously. I agree that some of AA is f$$$$d up but I take what works and leave the rest, just like when I publicly announced I would not stop taking my Paxil. They tried to vote me out of the home group and I just said, Fine, but this changes nothing other than what meeting I show up at. I wonder if you had stood up to AA while you were still going would you have had different results? Oh, man, I sense you are not a bad guy and mean well but ouch....I'd take the energy and focus it on something more positive, man. Just sayin'.

I'm sure you mean well though. No_Name in Arizona (please don't reveal anything about me, I got enough troubles and I don't need my new sponsor and new home group turning on me man. And A Good New Year to you BTW.

Hello No_Name,

Thanks for the letter. I'm very happy to hear that you aren't letting them control you and make you stop taking your medications. People are dying over that issue, you know. Every so often another A.A. member commits suicide after a dogmatic sponsor talks him into not taking his doctor-prescribed anti-depressants.

In case you haven't already run into them, here are the lists of related horror stories:

  1. A.A. "No Meds" Stories
  2. A.A. Suicides

And that leads to the answer to your second question: Why don't I just give it up and go do something else?

I cannot count how many A.A. members have asked me to "just move along", "get over it", "get off it", "do something constructive", "quit being so negative", and "you have a resentment". What all of that means is that they want me to quit telling the truth and quit informing the public about the real facts about a lot of important issues. (Which is just what your sponsor and his friends hate about me.)

Well, since people are dying over these issues, it's important that people learn the truth. Somebody has to tell the truth. So I have no intentions of "just moving on", or devoting all of my time to a garden. By the way, I do have a garden, and I also spend a lot of my time photographing wildlife and feeding my little feathered friends. But that doesn't make me stop wanting to tell the truth.

For more reasons why I'm doing this web site, check out this autobiographical story: A biography written for SOS.
(And if you want even more autobiographical information and reasons for the web site, the whole list is here.)

By the way, your story of how the A.A. "elders" are punishing you for taking your medications is another good example of what is wrong with Alcoholics Anonymous. Those stupid fools kill a lot of people by insisting that people should not take their medications. The dogmatic A.A. sponsors have not gone to medical school, and they are not licensed to practice medicine. They are not qualified to prescribe or proscribe medications, but they still insist that people should not take medications. They literally do not know what they are talking about.

And the same goes for their lectures and sermons about spirituality and sobriety and recovery. They don't know what they are talking about. They are just true believers in a cult who just sling slogans.

I'm adding your letter to the list of A.A. "no medications stories". Your letter says much more than you imagine.

By the way, the fact that you need me to hide your name because they will hate you for telling the truth is also very revealing. Have you considered a non-cult recovery group or support group where you can openly tell the truth? They won't treat you that way. Honestly. I've been to things like SMART, and they are very nice and understanding about people who need to take anti-depressants, and would NEVER tell someone not to take his medications. Check out this list:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.

[The next letter from No_Name is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Terry ]

Date: Sun, January 19, 2014 5:41 pm     (answered 23 January 2014)
From: "terry"

Thankyou for this site. It is like wakening from a bad dream.

Hello Terry,

Thanks for the thanks. And you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "In a room where people unanimously maintain a conspiracy
**     of silence, one word of truth sounds like a pistol shot."
**       ==  Czeslaw Milosz

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Jay_J ]

Date: Sun, January 19, 2014 10:50 pm     (answered 23 January 2014)
From: "Jay J."
Subject: the orange papers-12 biggest secrets.

I had to stop reading at the point where you spoke of aa counselors telling people to stop taking medications prescribed by doctors leading to hospitalizations or deaths.

For me, that shot a hole in your credibility. I'm ready to believe that aa is a cult or a religion, but so is allotropic medicine. I have no doubt that stopping the medications a doctor prescribes can be dangerous, I'm just not convinced that a majority of the people taking those medications wouldn't have been better off to have never started and that the problem with stopping is just one more good reason never to start. And saying that because somebody's not a doctor that they can't say things a doctor can? Sorry, there's just far too much corruption in the medical system for that to fly. Perhaps you're good at spotting aa's games because you play the same games but don't point them out to your reader?

So it's difficult to convince me the one group is an evil cult because they're getting in the way of the profits of another evil cult which also has very doubtful results.

I'm thinking you might be a doctor. I'll have to see what I can find out about you.

Jay J.

Hello Jay,

Thanks for the letter. It says a lot.

The first glaring error in your thinking was:

I'm just not convinced that a majority of the people taking those medications wouldn't have been better off to have never started and that the problem with stopping is just one more good reason never to start.

Without knowing anything whatsoever about the medical condition of some patient, you declare that the patient should not take medications, and that he would have been better off to have never started on medications. Oh really? Many of the patients would be dead if they had not started on medications. That is a classic gold-plated example of what is wrong with Alcoholics Anonymous. That is why they kill people with their "no medications" attitude. That is why Alcoholics Anonymous is harmful quackery and faith healing, not a cure for anything.

You are not a doctor, and you have not graduated from medical school, and you don't know anything about medicine, and yet you think that an unnamed patient whom you have not even examined or questioned should not take medications. That is insanity, pure and simple. That is a classic example of cult dogma.

It is nuts to throw away several centuries of medical progress and learning and try to just use faith healing to cure medical problems. It took centuries and many millions of lives to learn what we now know about medicine. Throwing away all of that knowledge would be a terrible waste. Fortunately, that vast majority of the human race is smarter than that.

Then, it simply does not matter whether you are convinced that A.A. is an evil cult.

Lastly, you think that I must be a doctor because I criticize the crazy A.A. "no meds" dogma? Talk about paranoid conspiracy thinking. You and the Scientologist Tom Cruise can both jump up and down on the couch together and proclaim that people should not take their medications.

I'm adding your letter to the list of A.A. "No Meds" horror stories, here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Many Americans suffer from a conviction that the past has nothing
**     to teach the present. That attitude is both arrogant and stupid,
**     and it assumes that we are so special that what we are going
**     through now is completely different from anything that the human
**     race has experienced during the previous 10,000 years.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Mon, January 20, 2014 4:46 pm     (answered 23 January 2014)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: of possible interest


Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Scientist 1, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
Co-Author: The History of Problem Gambling: Temperance, substance abuse, medicine, and metaphors

Hello again, Peter,

Thanks for the link. Now that does look interesting.

And thanks for your work for compassion towards addicts and alcoholics. They are just such easy victims for demagogues and rabble-rousers. (See the signature below.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     To describe drunkenness for the colorful vocabulary
**     is rather cynical. There is nothing easier than to
**     capitalize on drunkards.
**       ==  Anton Pavlovich Chekhov (1860—1904)

January 16, 2014, Thursday, my back yard in Forest Grove:

One of my back yard squirrels, just watching me and waiting for me to go away so that it can eat some more seeds.

This squirrel was cussing up a storm.
As I went out my front door, I heard this squirrel cussing loudly, just carrying on non-stop. The cat below was the object of the squirrel's anger.

Black Cat
The most hated cat in Forest Grove. At least, that is what the squirrel says.

Squirrel still cussing.
But it isn't cussing at me. The squirrels fear me because I'm so big (compared to them), but they don't cuss at me. They know that I'm feeding them. No, that kind of anger is reserved for the cat.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html#Richard_B ]

Date: Mon, January 20, 2014 5:10 pm     (answered 23 January 2014)
From: "Richard B."
Subject: Fw: Psychoanalysis and Alcoholics Anonymous


Quick, somebody turn off that fog machine!
According to the French philosopher Gilles Deleuze, the central message of psychoanalysis is: Whatever you say, it means something else.

AA voodoo. Freudian voodoo. I don't know about anybody else, but the combination sends my thoughts wafting off in the direction of Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Bill Wilson's own dealings with psychiatry seem not to have been all that fruitful. Yes, he did suffer. But it's hard to feel sorry for someone who keeps yelling at you "Conformity or death!" In Arabic that's called a fatwa.


Hello again, Richard,

Thanks for the link. More propaganda from the A.A. propaganda mill.

The first falsehood that stood out was this:

I have already mentioned that both AA and psychoanalysis came into being in response to forms of human suffering that appear, paradoxically, both self-induced and beyond the subject's personal control, both willed and caused, and that disrupt the physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being of their patients, and leave them both painful and pained, obnoxious and miserable (Mann, "Pain" 545).

No, actually, A.A. came into being because Bill Wilson needed a source of income. He saw how well Dr. Frank Buchman was doing with selling cult religion to the rich and famous, and Bill wanted a piece of the pie too. And he got it.

Then there is this nonsense that couldn't be more inaccurate:

It might be news to some readers, as it was to me when I first began to study the program, that Alcoholics Anonymous proffers a most psychoanalytic-like theory of the origins of this suffering.

Oh really? Confess all of your sins and moral shortcomings to your sponsor is "a most psychoanalytic-like theory of the origins of this suffering"? Your suffering is caused by your moral shortcomings, and confession is the cure?

Then this is more complete nonsense:

Like the Freudian symptom, addictive behaviors, along with the habits of thought and emotion that support them, according to AA are really attempts to solve conflicts between "instincts in collision," "instincts for sex, security, and society,"

There are no instincts for security and society. Bill Wilson couldn't tell the difference between desires and instincts. I wrote a bunch more about that quote from Bill Wilson about his instincts, here.

Then this is really a nice piece of denial of the obvious:

"The primary fact that we fail to recognize," Bill W. comments, "is our total inability to form a true partnership with another human being" (Twelve 53). Is there outside of Kohut a truer sketch of narcissism?

But Bill Wilson was the narcissist who best exemplified an inability to form a true partnership with anyone. He cheated all of his partners, especially his wife Lois, and Big Book co-author Henry Parkhurst, and 12X12 co-author Tom Powers.

And this is pure Stepper dogma:

AA's image is less like ocean and more like quicksand: we are submerged because we are fighting, and the only way to free ourselves is to surrender.

Surrender to the cult is not the answer.

Yes, the propaganda just doesn't stop:

Many AA members have no religious conception at all of a higher power, nor do they feel the need for one.

Just ignore the fact that six of the 12 steps refer to God.

Further down, the author says:

The six middle steps of AA correspond to the daily conduct of psychoanalytic work.

Actually, those steps work to induce guilt by making people constantly harp on their wrongs, defects, moral shortcomings, and everybody they ever offended. That is not psychoanalysis. That is brainwashing.

A real psychoanalyst might ask, "Do you drink to kill the pain, and try to feel better?"

Likewise, the author says,

The fourth step of AA outlines the inner job of the analysand, I think, as well as as well as that of the alcoholic seeking recovery from his errant ways. It asks us to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves," emphasizing the role of "extremes in instinctive drives" towards sex, security, and social success. It counsels the subject not to defend his actions or the feelings behind them, but only to acknowledge them. What role did I play in that miserable script?

Actually, Step 4 is where you must do a guilt-inducing moral inventory, listing all of your sins and wrongs and moral shortcomings. They don't explain what that has to do with drinking alcohol.

And then we get more quack psychology:

What fear is to the future, in the AA way of thought, resentment is to the past.

They just can't stop ranting about resentments, can they?

In his fifth step the alcoholic systematically reports these findings to "God, himself and another human being," much as the neurotic in a more desultory fashion discovers them for himself through free-association and interpretive work with his analyst.

Um, no, Step 5 is where the A.A. victim confesses all of his innermost secrets to his sponsor, who will probably blab them to other A.A. members (and may spread the gossip all over town). Some sponsors use the embarrassing information for blackmail.

Now this descends into lunacy:

With step seven he symbolically enacts through prayer, with respect to his character defects, what he has done in the first three steps respecting alcohol, asking his higher power to relieve him of dependency upon them.

He doesn't "symbolically" do anything. Step 7 is where you beg God to fix you and remove all of your defects, as if God was Aladdin's Genie who has to grant three wishes when you rub his lamp. The lamp-rubbing that works on God is apparently confession. You confess all of your "moral shortcomings" and "defects of character" in Step 5, and then God has to grant your wishes in Step 7.

Then this is more blatantly wrong propaganda:

AA's last three steps correspond to termination in analysis.

Let's see: Step 10 says that you have to repeat the previous 9 steps forever.
Step 11 says that you should conduct a séance every day and talk to God and get work orders and the power to carry them out.

We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Into Action, page 85.

And Step 12 says that you should go recruiting every day if you wish to remain sober. "We can only keep what we give away."
That doesn't sound like termination of analysis.

And then we get more psychobabble:

Trust, I believe, is at the core of what AA calls a spiritual awakening.

Ah, so now a spiritual experience is learning to trust the criminal who will rob you or rape you.

Then, in closing he brags:

The program of AA repeatedly emphasizes action over reflection.

Excuse me, but the only action is going recruiting. The rest is sitting in A.A. meetings and confessing how stupid you are, and listing what is wrong with you, and then conducting séances, and praying. Not much action there.

The final lines are classic: a total negation of the much-ballyhooed A.A. "rigorous honesty":

AA promotes the imitation of desirable behavior. "Fake it till you make it, " members say. "Do what the winners do." "Bring the body and the soul will follow."

Ah yes, fake it 'till you make it. That's really honesty and spirituality.

Years ago, "Anonymous" wrote to me:

So I was told to "fake it till you make it". If everybody is faking it until they make it, all you are left with is a room full of fakes.

This sentence is partially true, but has ominous overtones: "Bring the body and the soul will follow." What the author is really describing there is the Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique to change people's minds. People's behavior, attitudes, beliefs, thoughts, and feelings are interconnected, and people want to keep them all in harmony. If you force a change in one, it will cause a change in the others. For example, if you force a change in behavior, it will cause a change in the associated attitudes, thoughts, and beliefs. If you change someone's beliefs, it can cause a corresponding change in their behavior. Cognitive Dissonance is a very effective part of a brainwashing program. Here, the author is actually bragging that people's minds — minds, not souls — will change if you force a change in their behavior.

Thanks again for the propaganda screed.

Date: Mon, January 20, 2014 6:37 pm     (answered 23 January 2014)
From: "Richard B."
Subject: Bill Wilson the mad mullah?

Hello Terrance —

Forgetful me. Only now I noticed that I'd sent you the fog-machine article on September 10 2011.

Sometimes I repeat myself myself.

No problem. I don't remember having seen it back then, so the repetition is appreciated.

While I'm at it, has anybody else ever called Bill Wilson's characteristic mode of address in the Twelve and Twelve — especially that death threat on page 174 — a fatwa? What it ISN'T, certainly, is an expression of Christian charity. I think the term applies.


Richard B.

Well, it is certainly fear-mongering:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

And the Table of Contents in the same book declares with Orwellian double-think:

Absence of coercion works because unless each AA follows suggested steps to recovery, he signs his own death warrant.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 12.

"Do what I say or you will die! But don't think that is coercion. We wouldn't dream of forcing you to do anything."

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology could get together and
**    do a joint venture: They can declare that alcoholism is
**    caused by interplanetary cooties — that is, by the
**    ghosts of unhappy aliens who were dumped into a volcano here
**    60 million years ago, and who are now flying around and biting
**    people and making them drink alcohol. And the cure is to give
**    all of your money to an Alcocon Treatment Center®, which
**    will perform a 12-Step exorcism and tin-can confession session
**    to help you to get rid of those bothersome ghosts, but only
**    if you really try and thoroughly follow our path.  

[The next letter from Richard_B is here.]

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Last updated 23 February 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters386.html