Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXVI

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#John_M ]

Date: Tue, August 27, 2013 4:44 am       (answered 28 August 2013)
From: "John M."
Subject: Victory in the appeals court


Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Hello again John,

Thank you for the tip. That court case seems to be very important. The lower court judge was going out of his way to make sure that the authorities who coerced cult religion on prisoners didn't have to pay any money for their misbehavior, but the higher court was not going for it. The higher court panel emphatically declared that paying damages was not discretionary — the offenders must pay.

Thus, this case has far-reaching implications. Every judge, parole officer, and so-called "therapist" who forces people to attend 12-Step meetings can be sued for a lot of money. This will change their behavior fast.

Talk is cheap. It's all inconsequential when a higher court merely says, "Now now, the prisoner doesn't have to go to your favorite religion. Let him go." And then they just do it to a hundred other people.

But when the coercers have to pay money, big money, that changes everything. That is real consequences.

Also see:

  1. == Another nail in the AA coffin :->

  2. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-atheist-parolee-20130823,0,4232358.story == The Los Angeles Times

  3. http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/24/5676856_a5677670/atheist-parolee-wins-federal-appeal.html == Sacramento Bee: Atheist parolee wins federal appeal, is entitled to damages in rights case

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I don't know why we have to go around the world forcing our
**      way of life on other people at the point of a gun.
**      When you have something good, man, they will steal it."
**          ==  the comedian Dick Gregory
**      (The same is also true of A.A. using courts, parole officers,
**      treatment centers, counselors, and 12th-Steppers to force itself
**      on unwilling victims.)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Michael_D ]

Date: Aug 23, 2013       (answered 27 August 2013)
From: Michael D.
Subject: Amazing information.


I came across some of your youtube videos and was interested. So for the last 6 months have been reading and researching your information. Amazing! ! I always knew these things I just didn't have the concrete evidence. I am a former heroin addict and alcohol abuser. I am in a drug court program in Montgomery County PA. I must say its the biggest blunder of my life getting into this program.

My first issue in the program was I was told by the judge I had to go to a 12-step program, which then after a year of doing this thought wait this is a violation of my first amendment. Its a "spiritual program" and that takes away my right of freedom of expression. The judge is completely obsessed with AA and NA and believes these frauds. And keeps telling us every week "I have the statistics", "I have the evidence". I don't see it!

I believe knowledge is the best tool and CBT treatment has helped me with my behaviours. Being called a disease is a crutch and a way for them to keep cashing in on those who use in the program. I have backed myself into a corner with this program and the only way out is to go to jail. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your problems, but there is an answer. In just the last couple of days, there has been a big flap in the news about a Federal appeals court ruling that you can sue for damages when someone sentences you to a 12-Step program, because it is coerced religion. And the appeals court was insistent that monetary damages must be paid. The lower court judge was trying hard to avoid any real consequences to the legal authorities for coerced 12-Step religion, by ruling that the coercers didn't have to really pay money, but the Federal appeals court said that paying the big bucks was not optional, not discretionary. Damages must be paid.


  1. == Another nail in the AA coffin :->

  2. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-atheist-parolee-20130823,0,4232358.story == The Los Angeles Times

  3. http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/24/5676856_a5677670/atheist-parolee-wins-federal-appeal.html == Sacramento Bee: Atheist parolee wins federal appeal, is entitled to damages in rights case

  4. http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/athesit-barry-hazle-must-be-paid-jailing-over-refusal-faith-based-rehab-court-rules == Opposing Views

Also see this letter about coerced participation in A.A.: https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters352.html#Sharon

Also, Stanton Peele has a book "Resisting 12-Step Coercion", which is now a free download on the Internet. See:

You are quite right that your judge does not have any statistics that prove that A.A. and 12-Step programs produce good success rates. They don't. In fact, the real results are entirely negatives, like increased binge drinking and increased death rate:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A increased binge drinking.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A increased the rate of rearrests.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that A.A increased the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.
  4. Drs. Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
  5. Dr. Vaillant, who went on to become an A.A. trustee, found that A.A. did not increase sobriety in alcoholics at all, not even a little bit, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.
  6. So what's the actual A.A. cure rate? The answers are here and here and here.

I agree that knowledge and things like CBT can help a lot. This letter links to my favorite raps on the subject: How did you get to where you are?

Oh, by the way, those are not my videos. Those were made by James "Blame DeNile" and Mike B. They just like to put links to my web site on the ends of their videos.

Have a good day now, and don't hesitate to write back if you have more questions.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     One of the interesting things about politics is that you don't have to
**     prove your theories.  In politics, you can mouth off with lots of long-
**     winded opinions about economics or social order, and proclaim that the
**     world will be much better off if everybody does such and such...
**     But you don't have to come up with any real evidence to prove your point.
**     You can even ignore history where things didn't turn out very well.
**     Thus the Right-wing Fundamentalists can declare that everything will be
**     wonderful if we just post the 10 Commandments in all of the schools ...
**     (ignoring the fact that Moses, who wrote those commandments, was a racist
**     mass murderer and war criminal who delighted in robbing, raping, enslaving,
**     and killing everybody who wasn't Jewish). If we just force a bigoted
**     religion on everybody else, we can return to the glorious days of The Dark Ages.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#K ]

Date: Mon, August 26, 2013
From: "k."
Subject: Re: CthulaAnne

Hi. I just applied to join the forum as CthulaAnne. Will you approve my registration, please? — K.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 3:18 PM CDT Orange wrote:

Okay K.,
You are in. Welcome. And have a good day now.
== Orange

Date: Mon, August 26, 2013
From: "k."
Subject: Re: CthulaAnne

Oh, wonderful! It's been over a decade, but Ive still got a lot on my mind. Thanks for your blog. I started reading the comments after that National Geographic article and it all came back to me. Then, I went to your blog and I can't tear away from it. It's like a better articulated, better substantiated companion to my racing thoughts during the meetings I attended. I appreciate this. — K.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Paul_B ]

Date: Aug 22, 2013       (answered 28 August 2013)
From: Paul B.
Subject: About AA Passage Whats not good

Well put together flowing to read

Shame its a load of bollocks.

Hello Paul,

Do you have any facts to support that opinion? What are the Passages and A.A. success rates in curing "alcoholism"?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Evidently God can cure cancer and tuberculosis, but cannot
**     grow a new leg...  This is blasphemy, but not mine — the
**     priests and faith healers are guilty of limiting God's powers.
**          ==   Abraham Myerson
**     The same goes for curing "alcoholism",
**      while failing to cure other conditions.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Kary_M ]

Date: 26 August 2013, 2:47 PM       (answered 28 August 2013)
From: Kary M.
Subject: You have opened my mind

Years ago I stumbled onto your site and was enraged lol. Now after being sober in AA for almost 13 years I see myself coming around to your way of thinking. The dogma kills people. Thank you for taking the time and doing the research. I have only just started reading your articles more in depth and am looking forward to more. I feel brainwashed, at least I can see clearly now.

Just thank you

Hello Kary,

Thank you for the note and the thanks. I'm glad to hear that your head is clearing and the light is shining in.

Oh, and congratulations for your almost 13 years of sobriety. Coincidentally, that is exactly what I have too. I quit in October of 2000. What a long strange trip it's been.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Ring the bells that can still ring
**     Forget your perfect offering
**     There is a crack, a crack in everything
**     That's how the light gets in
**       ==  Leonard Cohen, "Anthem"

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#RAH ]

Date: 26 August 2013, 9:34 PM       (answered 28 August 2013)
From: RAH
Subject: Play tape to end


I am recovered and abstinent fellow who also did it alone. I have a thought you might want to add to "What Works," a small addendum to your "Play the tape to the end" concept.

I call it "Honestly evaluate what you will do when you know you should not take another drink during a drinking session."

For many of us with a history of alcohol problems, we will extend each drinking session until we pass out. We cruise past the logical stopping point every time. There is no safe dose.

Picture it: drinking, enjoying the hell out of it for the first hour or ninety minutes. But then, the judgment wavers.

For me, the logical quitting point was somewhere between four and seven drinks. I would not feel better after that, only worse. But I never quit there.

I always made the conscious decision of "screw it." What am I going to do, lay on the couch watching TV while the buzz wears off, tired, alone, cranky and dehydrated? Sounds like a downer, man.

So the obvious Lizard Brain solution was to cruise past the satiation point and into oblivion.

I have found it very helpful whenever the "get a drink" voices start up to remember that I was unable to limit my consumption once under the influence of the drug.

It reminds me that there is no safe amount of alcohol for me to drink, that my judgment disappears just as the point of diminishing return on satisfaction is achieved.

It is a small tool that perhaps might be of use to others, thanks for the opportunity to share it.

Hello RAH,

Thanks for the letter. I whole-heartedly agree. It's funny how once old Lizard Brain gets going, he doesn't want to be reasonable or sensible at all. He just wants to stoke that high for all it's worth, and he is sure that more is better.

I'm adding a link from the "play the tape" idea to your letter.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.
**      ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778), Essay on Tolerance

June 16, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands::

Canada Geese
Canada Geese on an island. Gus the Greylag Goose is in the middle.

Canada Geese
Canada Geese on an island, zoomed in. Gus the Greylag Goose is third from the left.

Canada Geese
Canada Geese coming to get some bread. Gus is in the rear.
This looks like one of the families of 5, almost grown up now.

Canada Geese
Canada Geese eating bread. Giving them bread is a sure way to get new feathered friends.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Bratmeister ]

Date: Aug 21, 2013       (answered 29 August 2013)
From: Der Bratmeister
Subject: Finally (Thanks)!

A big Thank You for your site and research!!! I thought the way I was feeling was pretty uncommon, but evidently it's not.

My drinking had got to the point where it was having an impact on my life and family. I was very functional, but it got to the point where it just wasn't a way to live.

I never: had a DUI, went to jail, got fired, was late to work or missed work, got divorced, got in a fight, etc. I have a good job, a great family, I give my seat up on buses to elderly folks, I was a good kid and basically I think I'm an OK guy. Problem was, I was just drinking too much and it was getting worse.

I went to AA, actually was looking forward to it and was pretty regular (meetings daily) for about 1.5 years. It was good to see that there was a like-minded group of people with a common problem, but I never, ever really "related" to any of these guys. I didn't think I was a failure, and the relentless reliance on slogans and pat answers drove me nuts. Whenever I volunteered the opinion that "AA is OK, but it isn't perfect", or that the "parts of the Big Book are actually pretty poorly-written", I got pretty cold responses from the guys.

Basically, I got to a point where the program just wasn't doing anything for me: I've never once called my sponsor for advice (I have a wife and close friends for that), I've never hung out w/ group members outside of meetings, and I only "officially" made it through step 3. I haven't mastered this thing by a long shot, but I had (and still have) this feeling that the real answer was WAY simpler than the program was making it: just accept that I can't drink, that's that, and move on w/ my life. Hell, I go out w/ friends to bars, we have booze here at the house (and have had since I quit 2 years ago) and when I decided that alcohol and I had to part ways, there was ZERO temptation to drink.

It was really simple, and I'm very happy about that. What makes me irritated was the constant droning of my group to "do the steps," "don't over analyze things," and in general, don't question anything about the Program at all. I never openly criticized or attacked anything about AA, but the overall attitude of anti-critical thinking had me perplexed. At meetings, I really was tempted sometimes to just say "My God, people!! Just pull yourselves together and get on with your lives!!"

Reading through your site was a great gift: finally someone I can relate to!! I think AA helped me in the beginning to realize I wasn't in this alone, but I think I'm at a point where I need to move on. Maybe I'll need to go back, maybe I haven't been truly tested, but for now I'm happy and life is good. I really think God has more planned for me than going to 1-3 AA meetings a day like my cohorts brag about.

I could go on for pages, but that'll do. Thanks!

Hello Bratmeister,

Thank you for the letter and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well, and have managed to maintain your sanity in spite of everything.

Of course I have to totally agree with you.

One of the first things that I noticed in your letter was the A.A. desire to lump all drinkers together and stereotype them. As in,

  • "We are all alcoholics, and alcoholics act this way."
  • "Hi, my name is Joe and I'm an alcoholic."
  • "Alcoholics must go to lots of meetings and Work The Steps or else very bad things will happen to them."

Wrong. We are not all the same. Somebody like you is a very different person from the guy who lost everything and lived on the streets until he killed somebody in a drunken rage and went to prison. Claiming that we are all just the same and that a one-size-fits-all cure will work equally well for all of us is just plain wrong.

It really is more a matter of,

  • "On a scale of zero to 100, how much is alcohol hurting you and messing with your life?"
  • The second question is, "On a scale of zero to 100, how much pleasure and fun is alcohol giving you?
  • The third question is, "Is it worth it?"

It's all shades of gray. It's all rating things by percentages. Another word for that is "rational", which comes from the word "ratio", which means "a fraction". Rational people can weigh things and rate things as maybe 75 or 80% good, but not 100%. But you noticed that the Stepper true-believers are not rational. They cannot stand even a hint of criticism of their favorite cult religion. No, it has to be perfect, an absolute good (the Oxford Group even used the term the "Four Absolutes") and Bill and Bob were Saints who got The Message straight from God. And any disagreement with that is not well received.

I'm glad to hear that you didn't do Step Four. It's a really harmful mind-game: The Cult of Confession. That's where you start the life-long practice of constantly talking about what is wrong with you. Some people find that practice so depressing that they commit suicide.

Oh well, that fate is not for us.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In A.A., everybody is equal (but some people are more equal than others).

[The next letter from Bratmeister is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Benjamin ]

Date: Tue, August 27, 2013 2:29 pm       (answered 29 August 2013)
From: benjamin
Subject: Your interpretation of the 12 steps

Reap what you sow...hope you get what you deserve, whatever that may be....

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Benjamin,

Yes, I believe in the law of karma. What I wonder is, what does one reap after lying to sick people and foisting a quack cure on them for many years?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     My karma just ran over your dogma.  

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#RC ]

Date: Tue, August 27, 2013 5:18 pm       (answered 29 August 2013)
From: "RC."
Subject: AA, etc

Hi Terry,

I am so glad I found your site. Thank you so much. Here's my experience with AA and how I found the orange papers.

I had been attending AA for a few months and, like you, I had heard a lot of good things about it. I was told to be open-minded, willing and so on. My first thoughts after a couple meetings were "How the hell does this "sharing" stuff help anybody?" (I am not a fan of group therapy, never was) Then I started to read the Big Book — my first impression was "This guy Bill hates himself, and wants everybody to feel bad." I didnt read much but I remember something about "we were all actors" I thought to myself "fuck you Bill, you don't know me" So I threw my first Big Book in the garbage and quit going.

About a year later I had started smoking weed and drinking beer again and had some problems , and tried AA again thinking maybe I should give it a chance. So I went back (this time I was desperate) and really tried to listen. After about 2 months of 12 n 12 study meetings and BB meetings, and then getting to know some of the kooks in AA (there were very few "nice" members at that meeting) I said to myself said "this sucks, it doesn't work, I don't like to hear people beating up on themselves, and I'm feeling worse the more I go." That's when I googled "AA is a cult" — your site was the first one to come up.

I started reading "the orange papers" and everything made sense, the overdose deaths I had heard about, my feelings about the crazy literature, the wackadoodle Big Book thumpers, the people relapsing etc. I like the site not only for speaking the truth about AA, but the propaganda and debating tricks section and the letters are good too. Well, I haven't drank since April (still struggling with weed) and I feel pretty good. One thing, I did manage to find an AA meeting close to where I live where most of the long-time attendees are pretty normal (except for the 12-step stuff). They don't bully or try to push dogma down your throat.

I don't go often anymore, but its nice once in a while because I like a few of the people there. They have a bad reputation (that meeting) because they don't force the cult stuff or the "feel-bad" stuff down your throat. They get criticized by people in other groups because they are not hard-core enough (one of the reasons why I didn't mind some of the people). I was very disturbed, however, when I heard that a member who I knew (and liked) was in jail for murder. This is the link to the news

Disturbing, isn't it? Like somebody told me — "you never know who you're sitting next to." Since I read about that scum, I really haven't been going to AA very much at all.

The other night I was thinking about AA and I guess the main thing that bothers me is once I quit drinking, I want to feel more like "normal" people with each day of sobriety — but in AA you are not allowed to do that. After I have a year sober I don't want to say "I'm an addict and an alcoholic". Terry, I want to feel good about sobriety, not bad. But the program really won't let you feel good, and that's why I don't go often anymore. The only thing good about AA is like you say, the "we're all in this together" feeling. Oh and seeing nice-looking women, too. I enjoy that.

Anyway thanks for the website, I like it and its well-done, nicely organized, and it pretty much covers just about everything (except for the AA bullies-the members who like to make others feel bad and think it's funny-you know, the emotionally abusive, manipulative, scumbag AAers) if you can point me to those letters or that section of the site, I'd appreciate it. Have a great day, its hot as hell where I'm at.

please leave my email addr off your site , dont use my real name, thank you. RC is ok tho

Hello RC,

Thank you for the letter and the story. Congratulations on your sobriety and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. And you have managed to maintain your sanity, too.

About them not letting you feel good about your recovery: That is the essence of a cult. They don't want to lose you. You have to stay "sick" and crippled forever, and in need of the cult, and in the cult, forever. If they allowed you to say that you have recovered and are normal, then you wouldn't need them.

(Likewise, they will also tell you that your thinking is messed up and you can't think right. That keeps you from passing judgement on their insane nonsense.)

A.A. tries to twist things around and say that, because you should not drink any more alcohol, that you have a lifelong disease and you desperately need their "program" or else you will die. Wrong.

I, for example, have almost thirteen years of sobriety now (just 2 more months). I simply do not drink alcohol. (And I also abstain from tobacco and any illegal drugs. The only things I'm taking now are what my doctor gives me.)

I do not go to meetings to maintain my sobriety. I don't work a program. I don't constantly read a "spiritual" book about drinking, as if it had all of the answers to life. The doctor doesn't give me any special pills for my "alcoholism". I just don't drink alcohol because it is bad for my health and once I start drinking I end up drinking far too much and I get very sick. So I don't drink alcohol.

Now some Steppers try to claim that because I am no good at moderate drinking, that I am diseased for life. Nope. I am also no good at moderating with cyanide koolaid or arsenic, so I just don't drink the stuff. That isn't a disease. I am not "abnormal". I am actually quite normal. There are millions of people who just don't drink alcohol because bad things happen if they do.

It's a shades-of-gray question, not an absolute black-or-white "Are You An Alcoholic?"

Now here, of course, is where some Stepper will complain that I am not a "real alcoholic" — that if I was a Real Alcoholic that I wouldn't have been able to quit drinking without A.A. Wrong again. That is just the Real Scotsman Logical Fallacy once again. Everybody from my family and friends to my doctor insisted that I was an alcoholic, before I quit drinking.

And A.A. plays a shell game with the definitions of "alcoholic". "Real alcoholics" cannot quit drinking, but "hard drinkers" can. We were just talking about that in a previous letter, here:

Incidentally, my current doctor does not talk about my "alcoholism", not at all. He has never used the word. At each annual check-up, his nurse interviews me first and asks the standard questions about how much alcohol I drink. I tell her that I have been sober for 10 years, 11 years, 12 years. She nods and says "good" and types that into the computer. (She also asks me about smoking, and I give her the same answer.) And that's it. My doctor never mentioned my "alcoholism" or told me that I have a disease from which I cannot recover. We talk about my real problems, like arthritis and osteoporosis and a ruptured disk and pinched nerves.

Why make a non-problem into a problem?

By the way, if you want a group of kindred spirits who understand, may I suggest any of the non-cult recovery groups like SMART and SOS? Here is the list of addresses:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The common dogma [of fundamentalists] is fear of modern knowledge,
**     inability to cope with the fast change in a scientific-technological
**     society, and the real breakdown in apparent moral order in recent
**     years.... That is why hate is the major fuel, fear is the cement of
**     the movement, and superstitious ignorance is the best defense against
**     the dangerous new knowledge. ... When you bring up arguments that cast
**     serious doubts on their cherished beliefs you are not simply making a
**     rhetorical point, you are threatening their whole Universe and their
**     immortality.  That provokes anger and quite frequently violence. ...
**     Unfortunately you cannot reason with them and you even risk violence
**     in confronting them. Their numbers will decline only when society
**     stabilizes, and adapts to modernity.
**         ==  G. Gaia

June 16, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands::

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose and a friend

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose

Gus the Greylag Goose
Gus the Greylag Goose

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Anon3 ]

Date: Tue, September 3, 2013 10:20 am       (answered 3 September 2013)
From: "Anon3"
Subject: Registration

Hello — I put in a request for confirmation last week and hope I can join.

Also — I found this and believe you'll find it very informative:


My girlfriend is in 12-step "rehab" and it's a nightmare. I need tools to fight this cult.


On Sep 3, 2013, at 3:06 PM, "Orange" <[email protected]> wrote:

Ah yes, found it. You are in. Welcome.
And have a good day now.
== Orange

Date: Tue, September 3, 2013 3:16 pm       (answered 4 September 2013)
From: "Anon3"
Subject: Re: Registration

Thanks much — any advice so far?

I really appreciate your site.


Hello again, Anon3,

Okay, now I have some time to put together a proper answer. First off, thanks for that link. I didn't know that they existed. It seems like, every day there is more of that. The world is slowly waking up to the fact that 12-Step recovery is a hoax, and more and more people are speaking up.

You did not say whether your girlfriend was getting brainwashed in the rehab and was pulling away from you. We have discussed that in a recent letter, here:

And we have discussed the nightmare of having a friend or loved one in a Stepper rehab many times. Here are a few of them:

  1. Seven rehabs, seven chances to get cheated.

  2. Another treatment center nightmare: losing a fiance to a rehab romance

  3. The how and why of losing a fiance to a rehab romance

  4. another treatment center horror story

  5. The thing that really stuck out for me was the information about the Synanon games and the cult that used them, and their psychopathic leader. What is really very disturbing is that they use that very method at the main rehab center here on O'ahu.

  6. the resident drug and alcohol counselor invited me into a quiet room where he absolutely GRILLED me over the idea that I was an alcoholic. ... Now, the kicker is that he had no degree. He was just the resident 12 step old timer who was given a job to herd people into AA. He proceeded to grill, badger, and try to cajole me into AA.

  7. My partner has just passed 5 months in a highly restrictive 12 step based treatment center. (She has the "option" of staying up to a year, which has been "suggested".)   ...   It is being strongly "suggested" that she cut all ties with me.

  8. Two weeks after being there, no individual therapy, meetings AA meetings AA...

  9. I also have a history of going to a crazy cult-like drug and alcohol rehab, when I was 27 and very desperate. I was in this place for 5 months, it was severely abusive (psychologically) and I had a mental breakdown afterwards.

  10. The counselor tried hard to get in my girlfriend's pants and recommended I leave her, his name was Chuck. The "treatment" they gave us was the issuance of a Big Book and meetings.   ...   The entire reason I would drink was to escape the pain of rejection and marginalization I received from society. The hospital and AA completely missed it, my diagnosis was always alcoholic and the cure always Alcoholics Anonymous.

  11. So into the 90-day program I went, and, deja vu all over again, about two-thirds of the way through I learned that it wasn't really a 90-day program, but "Stage I" of a year-long program...

  12. A man is held prisoner in a treatement center because he refuses to convert to a fraudulent counselor's religious beliefs.

  13. I entered a sober living facility in december of 2011.   ...   a social circle of self congratulating hypocrites who quickly showed their true colors.

  14. it was the actual treatment that came closer to killing me than the substance abuse.

President Teddy Roosevelt was famous for the saying, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." Well, a Federal Appeals Court gave us a really big stick just last week. They ruled that any authority who coerces someone into the 12-Step religion can be sued for violation of their Constitutional rights, and that the offender must pay damages. Paying the big bucks is not optional. The story and the links are here:


Now this case was specifically about a prisoner who got sent back to prison because he refused to participate in the 12-Step religion, but it seems like it is also applicable to people in rehab who are pressured and coerced into 12-Step meetings by their so-called "counselors" and "therapists" who make the fraudulent claim that the 12-Step religion provides "recovery tools" and that participation in Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous is a "program requirement". Victims of so-called "treatment centers" are blackmailed into participation in the 12-Step religion with the threat of getting kicked out of the program and losing all of the money that they paid in advance for "treatment". Selling cult religion as "treatment" for a "disease" is also quackery and criminal fraud, of course, and considering the amounts of money involved, it is felony fraud. Those con artists really should go to prison for their crimes.

Also, Stanton Peele has a book "Resisting 12-Step Coercion", which is now a free download on the Internet. Peele's book is mostly for people who are sentenced to A.A. meetings by a judge or parole officer, but some ideas are still relevant, and you can't beat the price. See:

Now let's see, what other "tools to fight this cult" are there? Knowledge and true information are great tools — things that cults really hate. These may give you some helpful information:

  1. The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment. It's almost unbelievable that the most popular "treatment" for "the disease of alcoholism" does not really work at all, but that's how it is. There is plenty of money to be made by selling fake cures to the local yokels.

  2. The Twelve Steps Interpreted. What are those Steps, really, and what do they do?

  3. The Twelve Traditions Interpreted. The "Traditions" are not traditions; they are just 12 more rules that nobody follows.

  4. Bill Wilson Writes The Steps. Where those Steps came from.

  5. Recruiting Mind Games. I would bet that your girlfriend is getting this stuff a lot.

  6. The Heresy of the Twelve Steps. No matter what religion you favor, there is something very strange, downright heretical, about the theology of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Well, I guess that will do for starters. Please feel free to write back if you have more questions.

And have a good day now. And good luck.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less reasonable a cult is, the more men seek to establish it by force.
**        —  Jean Jacques Rousseau

NOTE: This discussion continues on the forum:

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Keith_G ]

Date: Mon, September 2, 2013 1:30 am       (answered 6 September 2013)
From: "Keith G"
Subject: AA has helped millions. You seem not so well informed

God bless you you are however ignorant. All AA asks in the beginning is for people to lay aside prejudice. It never suggests one abandon his religious view altogether. What is true that many have died who have believed in God yet had no access to. In no way does AA suggest you use an ashtray or a teacup to be a Higher power. Dr Bob and Bill used to read to people out if the bible. James played a big part in the formation of the Basic Text. I'm certain God has no issue with AA maybe you ought to ask yourself why all the dislike of AA. As AA states we had to quit playing God, it doesn't work.

Hello Keith,

Thanks for the letter. Actually, I am very well informed. What you have written there is a collection of A.A. slogans that are completely untrue:

  1. AA has helped millions. You seem not so well informed

    A.A. has not saved millions. The real number is close to zero. The only people who quit drinking in A.A. are the ones who were going to quit drinking anyway. A.A. actually raises the death rate in alcoholics.

  2. All AA asks in the beginning is for people to lay aside prejudice.

    When Bill Wilson asks you to "lay aside prejudice", what that means is that he want you to be gullible and ignore the real facts and just believe his lies. Bill Wilson routinely labeled critical thinking "prejudice".

    We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
    The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Page 46.

    We commenced to get what results? More on that here.

  3. RE:

    It never suggests one abandon his religious view altogether.

    Wrong. All of Chapter 4 of the Big Book, "We Agnostics", is a lecture that says that we must all convert to believing in Bill Wilson's religion.

    Then the Hazelden Foundation propaganda instructs us to give up our own religion and just believe in the A.A. religion:

    "... Alcoholics Anonymous is a spiritual program, not a religious one."     ...
    "Ideally," Jerry added, "religion helps you achieve spirituality, but if it doesn't, then set it aside for a while."
    The Way Home, A Collective Memoir of the Hazelden Experience, Hazelden, 1997, page 109.

  4. This is nonsense:

    What is true that many have died who have believed in God yet had no access to.

    Had no access to what?

  5. In no way does AA suggest you use an ashtray or a teacup to be a Higher power.

    Now you are just In Denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. A.A. members have told me that my "Higher Power" can be anything from a doorknob to a cat or a parakeet.

  6. Dr Bob and Bill used to read to people out if the bible.

    Dr. Bob was a Bible-beater. Bill Wilson was not.

  7. James played a big part in the formation of the Basic Text.

    Wrong. Dr. Frank Buchman and his Oxford Group used one line out of the Book of James, and claimed that it justified their practice of group confessions:

    "Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
    == James 5:16

    James said "ONE to ANOTHER", not "one to a group". The early Christian church did practice group confessions, but they found that it was a huge mistake because it increased the sinning. When the children heard what the adults were doing, they thought they might like to try that too. And the old people were offended by frank sexual confessions. Soon, the Church banned public confessions as a big mistake. Bill Wilson just copied Frank Buchman's mistake.

  8. I'm certain God has no issue with AA

    You are certain, huh? It must be wonderful to know the mind of God so well. Does God talk to you in your daily Step 11 séances and tell you how He feels about things?

    You should read the file The Heresy of the Twelve Steps to see how God might have issues with the A.A. theology.

  9. maybe you ought to ask yourself why all the dislike of AA.

    Oh I have. And the answer that I come up with is, it is really disgusting, watching child-rapers yammering cult slogans to sick people as if those slogans were real wisdom that would actually heal people. And to think that those perverts get paid our tax money for doing it... Unbelievable.

  10. As AA states we had to quit playing God, it doesn't work.

    That is another one of those crazy brain-damaged A.A. slogans. Bill Wilson insisted that everybody had to be an obedient slave of God, listening to God in Step 11 séances and getting work orders. Bill Wilson denounced thinking for yourself as "Playing God". Deciding for yourself what is right or wrong is "playing God". No it isn't. It's being a grown-up.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     For me to sit with a new guy and tell him he needs God and he needs
**     to work the steps in order to save his life is tantamount to murder
**     or at least some form of assisted suicide.
**       ==  posted by Rant at 9:37 am, Monday, November 5, 2012, on
**         http://moynihaninstitute.blogspot.com/2012/11/aa-kills-more-drunks-than-it-helps.html 

Date: Fri, September 6, 2013 11:01 pm       (answered 7 September 2013)
From: "Keith G"
Subject: Re: AA has helped millions. You seem not so well informed


Ah, it's the Ostrich Syndrome: "Maybe if I don't look at the facts, they won't bother me."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
**     It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**     == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html#Keith_G3 ]

Date: Thu, September 12, 2013 10:46 am       (answered 15 September 2013)
From: "Keith G"
Subject: Re: AA has helped millions. You seem not so well informed

They are not my facts. My expereince is that it works WHAT would I benefit from reading your opinions? I jnow what has worked in my life and in countless others lives. I have read enough of your "facts" or rather opinions to be quite comfortable that I need to read no further.

Hello again, Keith,

Actually, "your experience" seems to be that you have quit drinking. (At least, you are inferring that you quit drinking, although you did not actually say that you did, or how long you have been sober.)

At the same time, you did a number of other things, like eat better, sleep, walk, work, travel, take a bath or shower, get dressed, brush your teeth. Any one of those things could have contributed to your sobriety, or none of them may have. You cannot infer a cause-and-effect connection just from quitting drinking and also doing something else, like going to some meetings, or joining a particular religion, or eating a particular food, or even taking some drug. Believing that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between things that happen at the same time is the logical fallacy of Confusion of Correlation and Causation.

The truth is, you decided to quit drinking, so you did.
At the same time, you also went to some meetings because somebody told you that the meetings make people quit drinking, or "help" them, which isn't true. At those meetings, people told you a bunch of lies, and you believed them.

You have not really figured out why you quit drinking. It certainly was not because you did the practices of an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties, confessing your sins and imagining that you were hearing the Voice of God in séances. What was the real cause for your decision to quit drinking? Was it,

  • Got arrested?
  • Got very sick?
  • Wife left you?
  • Lost job, and then became homeless?
  • Doctor said you were going to die?
  • The total suffering just got to be too much?

Where would you send a dear friend if he was literally dying from alcoholism and no treatment seemed to help? This ought to be telling!

If he was really a dear friend, then I would not just "send him" somewhere, I would stay with him and take him to a variety of places and things, starting with SMART and SOS and Lifering. Here is the list of better organizations:

I would also read this letter to him: How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Cast off the shackles of this modern oppression and
**     take back what is rightfully yours, because as William
**     Shakespeare never wrote, 'Life is but a bullring, and
**     we are but matadors trying to dodge all the horns.'"
**       —  Matthew Clayfield

[The next letter from Keith_G is here.]

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Last updated 15 November 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters366.html