Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXIV

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Avi ]

Date: Sun, August 11, 2013 7:39 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "avi"
Subject: Hi i can,tell you everything you need to know about the atlantic group in nyc.

I was a group member for 8 years.
There was a girl natalia who commited suicide a few years back.
Most wont sponsor you if you are on meds.
They all get on their knees and pray to the higher power bill wilson invented in 1930.
Ive never heard an athiest qaulify there.
I was catfished recently to get me back into the cult.
I know all the names of the founder and steering committee members
On a Positive note they are against 13 th stepping.
Not sure if there is anything funny going on with money because average group members arent allowed into the steering committee meetings.
I left aa about a month ago.
I know more about the big book than all the atlantic group combined!
I won their big book thumping contest/lottery.
Let me know if i can help get people out of the cult.
Thanks and have a great day.

Hello Avi,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are free now and thinking clearly.

Yes, there is something that you can do, right now. Tell the truth everywhere that you can, as much as you can. Publicly-spoken truth is the enemy of cults.

For example, there is a big debate going on right now, on the National Geographic website. Somehow, an A.A. true believer got a loony article pushed that claims that A.A. is the best medicine for alcohol abuse, and it's "scientific", too. There are over 450 comments, and many are standard A.A. slogans and misinformation. Look here:

Also, you could tell me more about your experiences in the Atlantic Group.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows.
**       ==  William Shakespeare 1564-1616

[The next letter from Avi is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Sanda_P ]

Date: Sat, August 10, 2013 9:54 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Sandra P."
Subject: Another AA Horror Story

In 2005, I was house-sitting with an AA guru who insisted that the palpable discomfort between us was "sexual tension". He insisted that we have sex. After agonizing over it, I consented. I had a terrible fear of becoming homeless again — due to mental illness. I left that house the exact same day that I had somewhere else to go. I decided that I would give AA a year and quit if things weren't better. All was quiet for awhile. Then later that year I started to date an old-timer. After I broke up with him the harassment started. As the months of attending meetings wore on, it seemed that they had both videotaped me and put it on YouTube, and that other men in the program in that city had seen it. People in AA knew the managers in the large company where I worked and I was eventually fired due to their harassment. The women in the program were not much better — every woman I told, told others. And none of them ever offered me a place to stay. It has been eight years and every time I try to get sober this comes up. Most recently I was told to take responsibility, that it probably happened due to something I was unaware of doing! So how would I take responsibility?

Hello Sandra,

Thank you for the horror story. I'm adding it to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

Your story shows once again that A.A. is more of a cruel hoax than a therapeutic community. (But how could it be otherwise? Mentally-ill oldtimers are not the best counselors.)

May I suggest that you find a SMART meeting, or SOS, or Lifering? The people there will not be so cruel to you. Here is the list of addresses:

By the way, stalking is against the law. I would tell your story to a police detective, if I were you.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Craig_M ]

Date: Sun, August 11, 2013 11:23 am       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Craig M."
Subject: resentment

It's amazing how one resentment can turn your life into nothing more that hate filled speech. Who abused you when you were a kid, Mommy? Daddy? The bully down the street? All you do with your life now is take your past pain out on others. You appear to have a sad, anger filled and fear driven life. I feel sorry for you.

The information contained in this message is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or unauthorized use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this by error, please notify the sender immediately.

Hello again, Craig,

You know, it's both amusing and amazing, hearing the brainwashed Steppers repeating the same slogans over and over again, seemingly forever. "If someone criticizes A.A., he has a resentment, and that's bad."

Telling the truth about an evil cult is not hatred and fear. It's telling the truth.

Now what about your hatred and fear of people who tell the truth about A.A.? That's quite a resentment that you have there.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob never got their thinking out of the
**     Middle Ages, and they seemed to resent anybody else who had.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#John ]

Date: Sun, August 11, 2013 8:05 am       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "John"
Subject: Hello

I read your critique about the 12 steps, very interesting. I have similar reservations. I struggle with sexual compulsion and am currently a member of SLAA. I wonder what worked for you other than the 12 steps and if you recommend any readings or have some insight you would like to share? Thanks in advance.


Hello John,

Thank you for the question. First off, the 12 Steps don't work to do anything except convert people into true believer members of a cult religion. That's what Dr. Frank Buchman designed those cult practices — practices, not "principles" — to do, and that is what they still do. So the 12 Steps won't cure anything.

Now, for what worked for me, here is the list:

Now I realize that quitting alcohol and cutting down on compulsive sex are very different problems, and what works for one may not work for the other. (And that is again evidence that trying to apply the 12 Steps to all problems is crazy.) Still, I know that SMART teaches some techniques that are applicable to a variety of problems. And you will meet a saner grade of people in all of those groups.

Oh, and the A.A. founder Bill Wilson was such a notorious philanderer and sexual predator that using his 12 Steps to treat sexual problems is some kind of a sick joke.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Tom Powers, co-author of Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, said,
**     "This sex thing ran through the whole business.
**     It wasn't just an episode."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#K ]

Date: Tue, August 13, 2013 5:25 am       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "K"
Subject: Hi there

Dear Orange,

I've been reading your blog for days and days (and days) de-programming my (totally stupid!) self and extricating myself from an offshoot of the Pacific Group, the Atlantic Group. I guess they have lots of offshoots. I thought that AG was "special" and a sister group, lol. Apparently Clancy's influence runs far and wide, I've learned. I just can't believe I succumbed to this cult's machinations...I really just can't. But never completely. I knew something was rotten in Denmark the entire time, so I was very careful with what I revealed and did. But had I known AA in and of itself is a cult, I never would have stepped foot into its rooms.

What I just can't understand is why do the sponsors WANT to purposely fuck you up? You go in there so vulnerable and scared cuz you have a drinking problem (and I quit too several days before a meeting) and then they slowly start baring their teeth and trying to pull you away from your own family! I never ever fell for that fucking nonsense. Thank "God!"

Anyway, TY TY TY for your website and all of its information. You've really done your homework. And it's really, really helped. I'm able to hold my own in an argument armed with some of your facts against these brainwashed folks, those who are trying to keep me in, that is.

Are you still posting letters on your site? If so, I'd love to "share" (lol) my experience with this beast. God, it's fucking scary!!! I've got all kinds of newcomers calling me and I can't wait to tell them why I haven't been to any meetings! I will sure develop a reputation around there pretty soon!

Anyway, I know I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do here. My username is MrsManic :)

Best regards, K.

Viva The Orange Papers!!!!

Hello K, or MrsManic,

Thank you for the letter. Congratulations for having your B.S. detector turned on, and seeing through the hoax.

And yes, I'm still posting letters on the forum. On the top of this letter you will see the URL where this letter is posted.

And yes, I'd love to get your stories and post them.

About your question: Why do they do that to newcomers? Well, it seems like it's just part of the routine. In order to remake someone as a mindless cult member, it is necessary to tear down their old mind.

Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person distrust his own self.
== Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.

Also see Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Conditions for Thought Reform, that is, for brainwashing. Dr. Lifton studied Chinese Communist brainwashing that was done during the Korean War, and he found that those eight conditions were vital parts of an effective brainwashing program. You will recognize all eight of those conditions in the 12-Step program, like confession sessions, redefined words and loaded language, constantly repeating slogans — thought-stopping clichés, and social isolation by pulling you away from your family, which leads to controlling most of your sources of information. When you only associate with A.A. members, you won't hear any dissenting voices telling you that A.A. is nuts.

Beyond that, I think that some of the oldtimers in A.A. are really just very sick, sadistic, mentally-ill creeps who delight in torturing vulnerable people. It makes them feel more powerful.

Oh well, have a good day now, and yes, your stories will be most welcome.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A doubtful friend is worse than a certain enemy.
**     Let a man be one thing or the other,
**     and we then know how to meet him.
**       ==  Aesop, "The Hound and the Hare",
**       Fables, (5th c. B.C.?), tr. Thomas James

June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Geese
The goose on the right is bullying the one in the middle. However, the couple on the left aren't going for it. They are standing up to him and letting him know that they won't move.

beach scene
The beach scene

Hawthorne Bridge

Marquam Bridge
Marquam Bridge

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Kathryn ]

Date: Mon, August 12, 2013 3:33 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Kathryn"
Subject: My sister is an alanon zealot

Dear A,

In your papers you have written a lot about the cult of AA. I came to you because I am having great difficulty with my youngest sister. Everything in her life revolves around her sanctimonious relationship with alcohol.

Her participation in alanon has rendered her mean and judgmental, a total personality change. Yes there is a history, Mom drank , Dad Drank more, her brother in law 4 diu's. It is not pleasant to deal with folks with alcohol problems, but nothing was tragic, Dad stopped years ago, mom drinks way less and brother in law is doing fine. My question to you is why is it that she has taken the suffering of other people as her own? She is outlandishly critical of anyone who drinks, think temperance union. She repeats on end these annoying slogans, " let go let god", you know em etc, etc etc. Her personality has become so judgmental and controlling that I think she has a real serious problem.

We used to be so close, that ended when I disagreed with her dogma of alcoholism. The only time I have felt powerless in my life was when I was in childbirth.

Personally, I never felt the need to control the minutia of my life. I guess what I am trying to say is I do not understand this grip alanon has on her, even worse the characters she is involved with in my mind are creepy. Her sponsor has nothing in common with her except having an alcoholic in her life; She is a mess and very repetitive. This woman said to me at my daughters funeral " it happened to her, it did not happen to you", A, my daughter was 17 years old, and died from the flu in 2009. Heartless. Of course it happened to me, what the fuck?

I just do not know what to do. Nothing I say gets through. In alanon they talk about loving detachment, could it be that one thing that seems sane could work for me? Should I play nice for the sake of family unity? The most bizarre part is that she has publically diagnosed several family and friends as being alcoholics.

To me this smacks of gossip and punishing. Please help.



Hello Kathryn,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Everything that you are describing is just so typical of cult membership. They bristle and turn hostile at the least hint of criticism of their cult. They yammer insane slogans all of the time, and don't really think at all. They are obsessed with the cult and want to spend all of their time there. They break up families and make enemies out of anyone who doesn't believe in the cult. Many of the members are mentally ill, and are also just regular creeps and assholes.

One of Steve Hassan's techniques comes to mind. He recommends criticizing some other cult that exhibits the same flaws as the cult that you are dealing with. Cult members are often very hypocritical and eager to label other groups as cults, while denying that their own group is a cult. So you can talk to her about the Moonies, or Scientology, or the Hari Krishnas, and the things that they do. You can get some more ideas from the Cult Test.

I just described that, and more of Hassan's techniques for getting someone out of a cult, in a recent letter, here:
https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Michael_Y ]

Coincidentally, that letter was from a husband who was trying to get his wife out of Al-Anon. So please read that to get some good ideas.

There is also more about Al-Anon here:
and here:

And no, you don't have to just give up and "play nice" and stop telling the truth for the sake of "family unity". Why doesn't your sister have to play nice?

Have a good day now, and please don't hesitate to write back if you have more questions or problems.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Democracy, which has grown up in the last three hundred years,
**     represents, with its emphasis upon individual responsibility
**     and individual actions, the most difficult societal system,
**     requiring a definite human maturity.
**         Totalitarianism and especially fascism can in many ways
**     be regarded as an escape from this difficulty into the
**     irresponsibility of following a leader who deprives the
**     people of their liberty and their maturity but promises them
**     'security' and 'economic progress'.
**        == walter_map,  May 14th, 2007
**        Published on Monday, May 14, 2007 by CommonDreams.org 

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Keith_L ]

Date: Tue, August 13, 2013 1:01 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Keith L."
Subject: AA

AA is the only thing that has the ability to save some people's lives. For you to smear it is simply sad. If it doesn't work for you for, but to dissuade others who may need it shows how selfishly shallow, naive, close-minded, and ignorant YOU are (Ironically the things you accuse the program of being). The negative aspects you focus on are aspects created by people not the program, the same situation as organized religion. Great job at possibly killing an alcoholic with you article by legitimizing their illegitimate concerns clouded by their disease.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Keith,

Thanks for the note. But alas, everything that you wrote is reversal of reality:

  1. A.A. is not the only way. In fact, A.A. does not work at all. A.A. raises the death rate in alcoholics.

  2. I never said that A.A. didn't work for me; I said that I soon realized that A.A. is a cult and I never even thought about working the steps or getting a sponsor. I got myself sober by using simple logic and self-knowledge and determination. Now I have twelve, almost thirteen years of sobriety.

  3. Claiming that A.A.'s problems are caused by people, not the program, is like claiming that guns don't kill people, people kill people. (If I pull the trigger on a camera, nobody dies.) A.A.'s problems are inherent in the program. A.A. is simply a cult religion, not a therapy program for a "disease".

  4. Then you finished with the standard A.A. accusation that telling the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous kills alcoholics. That isn't true at all. I get plenty of letters from people who say that learning the truth helped them a lot.

  5. Then you continued:

    Great job at possibly killing an alcoholic with you article by legitimizing their illegitimate concerns clouded by their disease.

    That is the essence of a cult: All criticism of the cult is illegitimate.

    Noticing that A.A. is actually a cult religion that lies about its success rate is not an "illegitimate concern". Noticing that A.A. is fake spirituality that claims that Bill Wilson got "the program" from God when he really copied it from a Nazi-sympathizing Lutheran minister is not an "illegitimate concern". Noticing that sexual predators are permitted to do whatever they wish in A.A., and the A.A. headquarters won't do anything about it, is not an "illegitimate concern".

  6. Then you claimed that people who notice what is wrong with A.A. have minds "clouded by their disease". Again, that is the cult talking, saying that people who criticize A.A. are sick and defective.

  7. And "alcoholism", that is, drinking too much alcohol, is not a disease. It is habitual behavior.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Most ignorance is vincible ignorance:
**     we don't know because we don't want to know.
**         == Aldous Huxley
**     (Nothing is so ignorant as the ignorance of certainty.)

June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Hangin' Out
Hangin' Out

Salmon Street Fountain
Salmon Street Fountain

Front Street
Front Street during the Rose Festival

Front Street
Front Street during the Rose Festival
The street is blocked off during the festival, so there is no danger in hanging out in the middle of the street.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#rs ]

Date: Wed, August 14, 2013 8:03 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "RS"
Subject: Orange

Hello Orange.

Thank you for replying to my post. Sorry about sending it to the gmail account. It is scary that they can look into your email like that, sort of like the former Soviet Union.

Hello again, R.S.,

Thanks for the response. Yes, it is downright annoying that Google is so arrogant that they think that they are entitled to violate people's privacy just because they provide free mailboxes. (But of course, getting your information is why they provide the free mailboxes.)

Anyway, I still want to press you for some more clarity on your last response to my letter as I feel that I have failed to convey my point across correctly. In your letter you have made it cleat that you think that the Catholic Church was "Evil Period." It's not your assessment that I was questioning, but rather the methodology you used to make that determination.

To try to illustrate the point that I am making, I will use some examples that according to your own methodology you will have to say are evil as well, or you will be showing inconsistency.

In your last email you said

You see, it isn't just a matter of a few percent of the people doing something wrong. It's whether the leaders know it and allow it to continue, and cover it up and protect the criminals and let them do it some more. And then betray the victims and accuse them of lying and making it up...

  • Example 1 Nelson Mandela and the ANC. Based upon your criteria, you will have to come to the conclusion that Nelson Mandela is Evil as well as the African National Congress (ANC) . Nelson Mandela was the leader of the ANC. The ANC, and Mandela were officially on the USA terrorist watch list until 2008. Nelson Mandela was personally behind terrorist actions that resulted in the deaths of innocent Blacks and Whites alike In South Africa. The media seems to have nothing but praise for this man, but never scrutinize his terrorist activity. By your definition you will have to declare the entire mainstream media as evil and behind covering up for this man's violence. He even received the Noble peace prize. Here is some info about the ANC, and if you think that any of the info is not correct, let me know.


    I would say that there is clear evidence that the ANC killed innocent people, certainly knew about it, and yet betrayed the victims, as they did in the Church Street Bombing by pretending that because they were also targeting Military personal that it was sort of the innocent peoples fault for being to close to them. I would say that covers your criteria for defining evil, so now you must Declare the ANC and Mandela as evil.

  • Example 2, America. The examples of the evil acts that our government, from colonial days till present day have inflicted on innocent people, betrayed victims, and accused them of lying and making it up are so numerous that an simple email could not encompass it all. It may appear that entering the United States Government and the crooked politicians who run it as too big of a target to use, but then again the same may be said of using a large organization such as the Catholic Church. Anyway in your letter you made it clear that one of the things that you have found evil about the Catholic Church was And when an organization like the Catholic Church not only permits but covers up and perpetuates the rape of children for centuries, it is an evil organization. Period.

    • A) AS you are well aware the slave trade has been institutionalized in America since the early to Mid 17th century and lasted till 1865, well over 200 years. How many slaves were beaten for minor infractions, families split apart, people who were both physically, sexually, and mentally abused in the most perverse way and had no recourse to the law as people, only as property. Although Slavery was perfectly legal under the law, the masters could inflict as much abuse as they wanted and could cover up as slaves were not considered complete persons under the law. Before the civil war the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" while fictional, was banned in most of the South. George Washington, although rumored to disapprove of slavery privately, held slaves that were only set free after he died. He also signed into law the first fugitive slave law that allowed slave owners to recapture their slaves even in free states. Jefferson, who is very often portrayed as being this free thinking progressive who secretly wanted to free the slaves, owned 200, and only formally freed 2 in his lifetime. In the Virginia assembly he passed laws that even forbade Slave owners from freeing their own slaves for fear of revolt. How about Jefferson and Sally Hemings? Was this a loving Relationship, or one of exploitation? Could sally have just rebuked Jefferson's advances, move out of Monticello and get another job? Did Sally Hemings have any real choice in the matter? Jefferson engaged in a sexual relationship with Sally Heming's when she was only 14, and he was 45 years of age, while on Official Government Business, overseas in Paris while he was a diplomat. Was this relationship concealed by Jefferson and his political allies? Yes! A case can be made that Jefferson behavior was worse then the Average priest accused of Sexual abuse, in the sense that his victim was literally a slave and had zero protection from predatory behavior. If Jefferson was around doing that today, we would put him on a sex offenders list. It has been suggested by many that there was a a lot of rape, sexual abuse committed against slaves on the behalf of the masters precisely for the reason that their victims could never press any charges.

    • B) The genocide of the American Indian. Without a doubt both Colonial, and the Federal Government has in the past massacred innocent American Indian men, women and Children, and the various leaders have covered up the massacres and in most cases made the victims look like the "Savages.' Although early objective colonial history points to the Indians as starting the first massacres on the early colonist, we do know for certain who inflicted the most destruction on who 200 years later. One just has to look at what George Washington ordered to be done to the Indians in the Sullivan campaign.


      It was a scorched earth policy. Don't forget about President Andrew Jackson who authorized the Indian Removal Act, or "The Trail of tears." Custers last stand wasn't so heroic as he was about to kill all the men women and children as he did in the past.


  • Example 3 Orthodox Judaism. Possibly you may object to the comparison of The last two examples because they were governmental, and political in nature, however Orthodox Judaism is a religion and like the Catholic church it also has a history of "covers up and perpetuates the rape of children for centuries, it is an evil organization. Period. " Here is an article explaining the abuse of children for years at the yeshiva.


    Here is one of Orthodox men trying to cover it up with Pibes.


    Here is an enlightening article from Australia.


    Here is also a Rabbi accused in London


    The articles clearly points out the fact Orthodox Rabbi not commited sexual abuse, covered up, and intimidated not only the victims, but the entire victims family. I should point out various passages in the Talmud are controversial for giving cover for the abuse of minors. The Talmund has been around for may centuries.

    Here is an article pointing to a controversy with Drug Smuggling.


    Organ Harvesting.

    Here are a few more examples of abuse cover up in public education, for good measure.


I Do not conclude that the ANC, America, or orthodox Judaism, or public schools are evil. Were those actions evil, of course. All organizations have tried to sweep their evil ugly features under the rug. The issue was not so much your opinion if an organization is evil, just the criteria that you use to establish that as you have done with the Catholic church. Based upon the criteria that you have stated, you must also conclude that every organization that I have named as an example of being an evil entity or explain the inconsistency in your opinion.

Now back to AA LOL!!. I think that AA is shit, and does far less good and does more harm, but I arrived at that opinion based upon personal experience and the information that I have received from your site,(Thank You) and other sources such as Rational Recovery. It's just that my view is that evil should be defined on a case by case basis that originates with the Individual. Of course an organization can facilitate evil and extend it's impact, organizations can equally do a lot of good as well. Evil lurks in the heart of everyman, every group, every organization. No one is immune from darkness. The only way to rid ourselves of darkness is to shed light on it, which you have done brilliantly on your site.

Thank you

(Please do not disclose my real name and email)

You bring up a lot of interesting issues.

Alas, I think that at times you are painting with too broad of a brush. Condemning all of the Talmud because of a couple of evil rabbis is too broad. I won't go that far, but I sure would call them and their school evil, and an evil organization.

Jefferson does not get universal praise. I can remember some shows on Public Television where black historians strongly condemned Jefferson for hypocrisy, inconsistency, and keeping a black mistress. And personally, I wonder how he could pen those wonderful words in the Declaration of Independence, and not free his own slaves.

If I had been there at the ANC meeting where they planned to blow up innocent people, I would have objected and said that such killing is just plain wrong and evil. And terrorism.

And if I remember the history correctly, such bombing did not produce victory and finally make the white rulers give it up. Massive international pressure and boycotts had more to do with it, I think.

I can't help but remember the turbulent 'sixties in the USA. Here, we had the Weather Underground who accidentally killed a janitor while blowing up a computer complex one night. Everybody from the government to the press immediately denounced them as evil terrorists. But the ANC deliberately killing people with bombs was not terrorism? Yes, there is an inconsistency there.

We have the same problem with drone aircraft assassinating people from the sky right now. They routinely kill innocent bystanders, and shrug it off as "collateral damage".

You know, what a lot of this reveals is that the powers that be — and a lot of less powerful people too — have a paternalistic attitude of, "Us grown-ups have to do tough things. Sometimes innocents have to die so that we can win."

A century or two later, the schoolbooks finally admit that they were wrong, but that doesn't do the victims any good, does it?

Like now the history books will finally tell you that what was done to the Indians/Native American Peoples/First Nations was genocide. A hundred or two hundred years after the fact. A lot of good that does now.

You brought up the question, "Should we call America evil?" At times, I think that the answer to that has to be "Yes. Undoubtedly yes." When a nation exterminates the native peoples while importing another race to be their slaves, and steals the land from neighboring countries and peoples while claiming that God gave them the right to steal the land and kill the people, I think that is evil. You sure can't call it good or Godly.

Yes, in the big scheme of things, I would have to call the perpetrators of such crimes evil, no matter what government or church or organization they belong to.

Now I know that condemning people who committed mass murder 100 or 200 years ago does very little good now. It can make us feel good and righteous, but it doesn't undo the killing. The most that we can hope for now is that maybe universal condemnation will discourage somebody else from doing it now. (Although that does not seem to be working in Sudan or Darfur.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If you wonder whether evil karma can be neutralized or not,
**     then know that it is neutralized by desire for goodness.
**     But they who knowingly do evil deeds, exchange a mouthful
**     of food for infamy. They who knowing not wither they
**     themselves are bound, yet presume to pose as guides for
**     others, do injury both to themselves and others. If pain
**     and sorrow ye desire sincerely to avoid, avoid, then, doing
**     harm to others.
**        — W.Y. Evans-Wentz, Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Wed, August 14, 2013 2:03 pm       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Who is the Addict? Part 3


Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
Co-Author: The History of Problem Gambling: Temperance, substance abuse, medicine, and metaphors

Hello again, Peter,

Thank you for the link. Interesting change of publication.

And again, thank you for a very relevant article. You are hitting on some of the big points.

I have to comment on the "unlearning" idea. What happened with me was not unlearning, it was more learning. It was like the old saying that "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise." I learned that alcohol and tobacco were causing me more pain than pleasure, and killing me. I didn't unlearn the pleasure that they gave, or the temporary relief from pain that they could provide. Rather, I learned that the end result — the long-term result — of using them was just immense pain and suffering, and that it wasn't fun at all.

I did not forget all of the fun or pleasure that I had gotten from them; rather, I just came to the conclusion that using them eventually resulted in far too much pain. And I learned that the hard way, by bitter experience, over and over again until I was convinced.

As far as causes go, yes, I had both trauma and genetics. I had an abusive alcoholic father who gave me both causes for addiction. Which was more important? I don't know.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Jede Form von Süchtigkeit is von übel, gleichgültig,
**  ob es sich um Alkohol oder Morphium oder Idealismus handelt.
**  Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic
**  be alcohol or morphine or idealism.
**    ==  Carl Gustav Jung (1875—1961),
**        Erinnerungen, Träume, Gedanken (1962) ch. 12

Date: Sat, August 17, 2013 4:04 pm
From: "Peter F."
Subject: RE: Who is the Addict? Part 3

Thanks for your comments, Orange. So it was a learning process for you.

I'm glad you were able to do what you needed to do.



Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
Co-Author: The History of Problem Gambling: Temperance, substance abuse, medicine, and metaphors

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#Mike_H ]

Date: Thu, August 15, 2013 8:47 am       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: "Mike H."
Subject: Hello

I'm currently reading your long resentment. While some of your points are worthy, more of them are dead wrong and not telling of the whole truth. You simply sound like an angry child with no real purpose.

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Mike,

Congratulations. You are the second Stepper today to declare that I have a "resentment" because I tell the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous. (Here is the first one.)

Why don't you guys learn some new lines? The way that you repeat the same irrational accusations over and over again, somebody might suspect that you were brainwashed or something.

You didn't bother to say which points you think are worthy, and which are wrong, so there isn't much to talk about there.

Then you finished your letter with the obligatory A.A. put-down: "an angry child with no purpose". (Why is it that Steppers just have to finish their letters with a put-down?) Such personal attacks are standard cult fare, and that behavior is in the Cult Test.

And yes, I have a purpose. It is to get the truth out there, so that sick people know what their choices are, and they will know what they can expect to get from A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
**  over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
**  ==  Richard Feynman

June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
Mill Ends Park, the world's smallest city park
For real. That little circle that you see is the entire park. The sign explaining the park was too big to fit in the park, so it's over on the sidewalk beside the street.

Mill Ends Park came into being as a joke. Way back, around the turn of the century, there was a newspaper building where Waterfront Park is now. On the second floor, a reporter would look out his window and see a hole in the middle of the street where a telephone pole used to be. Apparently, the reporter did not have a lot of material to write about, because he fantasized about the goings-on in that hole, and wrote columns about it. He called it Mill Ends Park, and populated it with elves and fairies and little what-evers. Week after week, he spiced up his columns with more reports of the activities of the little occupants of Mill Ends Park. It became a very popular joke. Eventually, even the city council got in on the joke, and officially declared that the hole in the ground was a real city park. Then they even got around to filling in the hole and planting a little tree and some flowers in the park. And it's still a city park today.

Mill Ends Park
Mill Ends Park

Last year, somebody stole the tree out of the park one night. Before the city maintenance guys could even fix the damage, somebody else came along and put a new tree in the park and fixed it up. Portlanders are very proud of their little park. Occasionally, little elves or gnomes magically show up in the park.

Mill Ends Park
Mill Ends Park with my friend Doug
I guess Mill Ends Park is sort of Portland's photographic equivalent to London's Abbey Road.

Mill Ends Park
Mill Ends Park with mother and son posing for a photograph

Mill Ends Park
Mill Ends Park with family

Mill Ends Park
Mill Ends Park with family posing for another photograph

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html#NoName ]

Date: Aug 10, 2013       (answered 16 August 2013)
From: NoName

THANK YOU REALLY, 15 years clean and sober, if you post this please leave my name out, i walked into aa about 15 yrs ago because i had nowhere to go, i thought. i was a binge drinker, once i started i couldn't stop [ i realize now just don't start ], i bought into the 12-steps sort of, and once you did you were in. i really never did them but i faked it till i made it i guess. now i'm a big bill, sponsoring people, telling them they must do the steps and so on, basically lying. see i stopped and i got better, my morals changed, i was becoming a better husband, father, son, and just because i wasn't drinking, i was living the way i was suposed to. i could not by the powerless thing, aa friends would argue with me that i was still powerless over booze, i'm not unless i drink it i would argue, i was starting to go against the grain, then about 6yrs ago i found your site and every thing came together. what a joke, its a mind fuck, turn your will over to some guru in the group. i've seen it all, since i stopped drinking i haven't hurt anyone, but i look at some of these bleeding deacons, who preach 12-step bullshit, while they steal, come on to young women, and basically hurt 10 people to maybe 1 person they help and they control their lives. i have a buddy who has over 20 yrs sober time, and we now have a couple laughs at the expense of 12-step nut bars. well i just wanted to say thanks, my life is good and i'm busy with work, faimly and just having a good time booze and aa free.

p.s — have not been to a meeting in 6 months and don't miss it, i keep in touch with aa friends that accept that, but there are 12-step kooks have condemned me to a sick drunkin death. what ever, maybe i'll drop into a meeting and save a newcomer and send him to your site.

Hello NoName,

Thank you for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Yes, life is just so much easier when you aren't killing yourself with alcohol, isn't it? And you feel better, and you don't wake up sick and hung-over. Ah yes.

And I find life to be far less annoying when I don't go to A.A. meetings.

I agree about the powerless thing. I'm only powerless over alcohol after I get a 12-pack in me.

And isn't it both funny and sad how they declare that you are going to die drunk in a gutter because you won't worship at the alter of Bill Wilson? They say the same stuff to me too. For 12 years now, they've been telling me that I'm going to relapse and die real soon now. I think they are getting tired of waiting.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.  

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Last updated 22 September 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters364.html