Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXXIII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Terry_E ]

Date: Mon, November 19, 2012 12:59 pm     (Answered 23 November 2012)
From: "Terry E."
Subject: Rat Park article

I just wanted to drop you a line and tell you that was a great, great article. As the father of a 2 year old, I really appreciated it.

Keep up the good work.


Hello Terry,

Thanks for the compliments, and I'm glad you like it.

Have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Education of children has little to do with educating them
**     but a lot to do with getting them to conform.
**       ==  frankiepoo

BLOG NOTE: 2012.11.26:

This borders on the unbelievable: I might have trouble believing it if it didn't come from a fairly reputable news source — the NBC Evening News. They reported that back in the 'fifties or 'sixties, the U.S. military was proposing Project A119, which was a plan to use nuclear weapons to blow up the Moon, to impress the Russians. No joke. For real. They were that insane. Fortunately, a young Carl Sagan advised them against it.

Think about that the next time a President says that he listens to the military generals when they tell him what to do.

P.S.: It turns out that this is well-known to some people. Wikipedia already has a web page on it:

BLOG NOTE: 2012.11.27:

Investigators just discovered that the Kabulbank in Afghanistan, run by President Karzai's brother, is totally corrupt and has been stealing hundreds of millions of dollars. Even the auditors who certified the bank's financial reports were corrupt and in on it, and just rubber-stamped the bank's false financial statements.

The Kabulbank got huge deposits of foreign aid money from the USA, and then transfered the money to other countries, under false names and fictitious corporations, and the money is gone. Investigators have little hope of tracking down and recovering the money. (NPR Morning News on 2012.11.28 reported that Kabulbank smuggled out cash in airline food trays.)

And this is just a few days after more news came out about the Fed bailing out UBS — the United Bank of Switzerland. Why is the U.S. Fed bailing out a Swiss bank? Why doesn't the Swiss government bail out UBS?

Do we notice a pattern here? Why is it that the U.S. Government is forever giving hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to corrupt and failing banks? No matter whether it's the Wall Street banks, or Afghanistani banks, they are corrupt and dishonest and cheating, and the money vanishes down a black hole with nothing accomplished. And nobody ever goes to Leavenworth for it.

And the bribe-taking Congressmen refuse to pass laws to regulate the banks properly.

Now why is that? Isn't that getting to be a little suspicious?

And American young men are dying to prop up that corrupt Afghanistani regime?

P.S.: A few days later, UBS was in the news again. This time the Justice Department fined UBS many millions of dollars for fraud and laundering dirty drug money. Isn't it kind of strange that the U.S. Government first pays UBS's fine in advance, and bails them out big time, to keep them in business, and then fines them for their crimes and takes back a small part of the gift? Very strange.

Reuters reported:

UBS admits fraud in $1.5 billion Libor rigging deal
December 19, 2012 05:59 AM ET
ZURICH (Reuters) - Swiss bank UBS swallowed a $1.5 billion fine and admitted to fraud on Wednesday after a global probe revealed its staff orchestrated the manipulation of benchmark interest rates over three continents.

Well now, doesn't that sound like the kind of nice bank that we should bail out with our money?

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Tue, October 23, 2012 3:47 am     (answered 28 November 2012)
From: "Peter Ferentzy"
Subject: addiction as metaphor
To: "ADDICT-L Academic and scholarly discussion of add" <[email protected]>

Hi All

The debate about whether addictions are literally diseases, or only metaphorically so, is old. I teamed up with Nigel Turner, who wrote a dissertation on metaphor. In this article, we focus on problem gambling but also on addictions in general. I believe this to be the first effort to address that old debate with a solid grounding in the role of metaphor in all conceptualization, including scientific. This article actually touches on points we make in a book now in press. I thought this article might interest some of you.

Best Wishes,

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

Attachment: Historymetaphor.pdf

Hi again, Peter,

Thanks for the article. That's good.

About all that I can add is, "Of course drinking and gambling are not diseases. They are behavior." If someone drinks too much or gambles too much because they have an underlying mental illness, then the mental illness is the disease, not the gambling or drinking.

Have a good day, and a happy holiday season now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The disease concept of alcoholism is historically ancient. Dr. Benjamin
**     Rush published the first edition of An inquiry into the effects of
**     ardent spirits upon the human body and mind about 1785, where he
**     designated addiction to spirits as a "disease of the will".
**     There was a counterpart in Britain: the Edinburgh physician Thomas
**     Trotter wrote in his doctoral dissertation, An essay, medical,
**     philosophical and chemical on drunkenness, submitted in 1788 and
**     published version in 1804, that "In medical language, I consider
**     drunkennes to be a disease..." He also wrote that "the habit of
**     drunkennes is a disease of the mind".
**     Now mind you, just because those doctors believed that alcohol abuse
**     was a disease does not make it so. Contemporary doctors had such
**     primitive ideas of medicine that they bled old George Washington to
**     death to get rid of "bad humors".

[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Thu, November 22, 2012 12:52 am     (Answered 3 December 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Another Bullshit Comment from the Peanut Gallery

Happy Thanksgiving!

Sorry about the cold. Those are never fun. I imagine they suck even more when you're older. At least colds go away after a couple of weeks. Can't say the same about tobacco nastiness.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Yes, this one dragged out longer than usual. Everybody around here got it, and everybody complained about the fact that it would seem to go away, then it would turn around and come back and clobber you again. I'm not sure if that is a cold or a flu. Whatever. At least it's mostly gone now.

And it still isn't as bad as smoking.

I did get some hilarious wank from conservatives after Obama's election. It was like Christmas morning after weeks of awful Christmas songs. My favorite has to be the Facebook friend who went on about how America got killed by 9/11 and Obama voters, aka "self-serving citizenry". I'll admit I mostly keep this guy in my friends list for entertainment. That, and he's actually a pretty cool guy off the internet. But give him an internet connection, and off he goes linking to infowars.

Speaking of nuts, here's some conservative lady going on a drunken rant about the election:

Of course, all this shit gets scarier when you consider these people vote.


I used the touchpad on my dad's laptop recently. I had to use both hands with that thing. One for the buttons, and the other for the touchpad itself. Sure, I could do that "double-tap to click" thing, but the damn thing doesn't recognize those gestures most of the time. At least, not when I want it to. It works fine if I accidentally brush it.

Yes, I get that too. The touchpad is forever mispositioning the cursor because a thumb brushes it while I'm typing. Linux used to have a command to turn the touchpad off, but I haven't found it in this version yet.

And apparently Logitech sells wireless touchpads, so you can replicate that experience with your desktop. Maybe Logitech makes better touchpads, but I still can't imagine why anybody would willingly use one.

Dr. Oz used to be on Oprah Winfrey's show, too. She sure does have a talent for finding quacks.

Yes, part of Oprah's popularity was that she sold a feel-good optimism where you could achieve great things, often by just wishing and thinking positive. That is a natural set-up for a con artist to exploit.

That horror stories list is getting disturbingly long. I wonder how long until you hit 100.

I don't know, but I'm sure that we will get there.

I just moved that list to its own file, where it can expand indefinitely.

And what happened to Gus' other children?

Alas, I think they got eaten. My best guess is the ermine (who looks just like a weasel). He has been killing a lot of ducks and geese. He has eliminated all of the white ducks, and the mostly-white ducks, and the gray-and-white ducks, including the ducks that were cute little yellow ducklings last year, and the gray-and-white duck that was sitting on a nest this year. All gone.

I really feel tempted to get rid of that ermine, but predators have their place in the ecosystem too. The problem is, this ermine doesn't just kill the old and the weak and the sick, he is an opportunist who kills everything and anything that he can get his teeth into.

I doubt that it was an eagle or a hawk, because either of them would have a very hard time grabbing three goslings at once. But an ermine could jump on the goose's nest at night, and grab one gosling in its mouth, biting down and killing it, while holding down two others, one under each paw. Then it bites and kills them, and it's got three for dinner.

That's my guess. It's extremely unlikely that the goslings just got lost, or left behind. The parents are very good at watching over their goslings and not leaving them behind. And if the kids think they are lost or left behind, they have a loud, piercing "locator call" that is a high-pitched shriek that says, "Help Mommy! I'm lost, and I can't find you!" The mother answers with a honk that says, "I'm over here," and the youngsters come running to her.

So it isn't likely that they just got lost or left behind. No, I think it's that ermine.

Oh well, have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A hundred years from now, it will not matter the sort of house
**     I lived in, what my bank account was, or the car I drove...
**     But the world may be different because I was important in the
**     life of animals and the creatures on this earth.
**       ==  Author Unknown

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Michael_B ]

Date: Sun, November 25, 2012 3:09 pm     (Answered 3 December 2012)
From: "michael B."

Agent O

why not call the whole mess


Hi Michael,

Actually, lots of people do.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Marianne ]

Date: Sun, November 25, 2012 4:10 pm     (Answered 3 December 2012)
From: "Marianne"

Sorry you feel this way. God bless!

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Marianne,

I'm not sorry. I thank God that I have the native intelligence and awareness to recognize when a cult religion is trying to deceive me.

Have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     'If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness
**     would be the supremely valid human experience.'
**       ==  William James (1842—1910), U.S. psychologist,
**        philosopher, in "The Varieties Of Religious
**        Experience", lecture 1, "Religion and Neurology" (1902)

June 05, 2012, Tuesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings eating bread

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4, eating bread
The little guy on the left is asking for more bread.

Mallard Drake
A Mallard Drake

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 3, reunited
The gosling at the bottom of the picture wandered off on its own for a few minutes, and now it is returning to the family, and the other two goslings are greeting it and welcoming it back.

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 3, reunited
The other two children are kissing the prodigal son and welcoming it back into the fold. Yes, they actually kiss. They lightly bite the lower part of each others' beaks, and that's a kiss. Goslings are extremely sociable. In fact, they take sociability to another whole level.

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings welcoming their sibling back, expanded detail

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings rejoining their parents
Now that they are done kissing, they are ready to rejoin their parents.

The first time I saw goslings kissing was when I had the first family of orphaned goslings. One day, as I was walking them in the North Park Blocks, two of them wandered off to the left on their own, exploring and munching the grass over there, while the others stayed with me as we walked back to the food and water bowls. Then the two wanderers rejoined us a few minutes later. The others joyously greeted the wanderers with a rapid chatter, and then kissed them. How they did it was to chatter rapidly, and then lightly bite the lower beak of the other one. Then they reversed it, and the other lightly bit the lower beak of the first one.

I watched this, and said, "Good grief, you guys! You have only been separated for two minutes, and you are greeting each other like long-long brothers." I guess two minutes is a long time to goslings.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Tony_M ]

Date: Mon, November 26, 2012 11:26 am     (Answered 3 December 2012)
From: "Tony M."
Subject: Thanks


Thanks to your writings and website — I made it through my 2 years of imposed 12 step punishment.

After my ex-wife told my employer I was smoking dope and drinking (which I was) I was forced into a 12 step program with the threat being if I didn't go I'd lose my license and my job.

I'm not going to bore you with how much of an alcoholic I wasn't, but AA was really, really bad. I never felt so bad about myself as when I was forced to attend.

Your research helped me see how bad they really are. I wrote letters and protested and was finally allowed to not have to attend. But I did come close to losing my job.

I am very angry and bitter I was forced to go through that. I really want to grab someone by the collar and ask why they would do that to anyone — but I can't. I'll never really get over it, but I know I'll survive.

Thanks again.


Hello Tony,

Thanks for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about what you had to go through, but glad that you are out of it now.

It isn't all over. You don't have to just accept such treatment. There is much that you can do.

First off, I'd contact the local ACLU and talk about suing for damages for coerced cult religion. Many high-ranking judges have already ruled that A.A. is a religion. And the Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case, ruled that any "coercing authority" can be held individually, civilly liable for the 1st Amendment constitutional rights violation that they perpetrate on people unwillingly and involuntarily forced to go to 12-Step programs. Meaning: you can sue a judge, a prison warden, a parole officer, a "counselor", or anyone else in a position of authority who forces you to go to A.A. meetings.

If getting fired is a concern, think about the fact that you could end up owning your boss's company. In addition, if he fires you for seeking justice, that is another lawsuit for wrongful termination.

It is possible that you can also sue your ex-wife for damages caused by her snitching. It wasn't her place to act as an informant. That is defamation of character and breach of confidentiality.

You might find that your local state representatives and senators are particularly sensitive to such issues, much more so than national Senators and Congresspersons. You can contact them and talk about coerced cult religion as "treatment" of drug and alcohol problems. What I'm seeing is that money is tight, and our representatives are getting tired of expensive state-sponsored treatment programs with zero-percent rates of improvement (over no treatment at all).

In addition, you can publicize the story, and write letters and articles talking about how coerced cult religion is the default way to handle all drug and alcohol problems.

Good luck, and have a good day. And have a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less reasonable a cult is, the more men seek to establish it by force.
**         —  Jean Jacques Rousseau

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Royski_W ]

Date: Tue, November 27, 2012 1:53 am     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "royski w."
Subject: politics

hi orange, captain britain here. just wanted to say that all politicians are bought and paid for by the massive corporations. its the same here in britain. we are constantly told to work harder and stop bitching while our leaders have 16 weeks holiday a year. the number of food banks has quadrupled in the last two years whilst the parasitic royal family have had their taxpayer funded wages incresed 10 per cent year on year. the biggest evils in my country are the banks, religion, and the so called elite. but as we are now seeing throughout europe the first stirrings of a true revolution. As the late great bill hicks said, just imagine if just for one year we spent all the money we spend on war on feeding and clothing the worlds poor. not one person left behind and then we could explore space together in peace forever! he was a true american and e gentleman. keep doing what you are doing orange bless you.

Hello Royski,

Thanks for the letter. I can only agree. I especially liked the line about what if we spent the military budget on helping the poor. Even our previous President Eisenhower (the former General Eisenhower) spoke about how every jet airplane represented the theft of schools and hospitals from the people. The USA spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined. Add up what Russia and China and Europe all spend on their militaries, and the USA spends more. That is insane.

There is such a thing as self-defense, and then there is paranoid madness. There is no sane reason for the USA to have enough nuclear weapons to blow up the entire world. (Back in the 'sixties it was 19 world overkills. That is, 19 times as many nukes as were required to kill everybody on Earth.) What a waste of money. No wonder the USA is going broke.

About the number of food banks increasing rapidly: Yes, that is happening in the USA too. I cannot predict the future exactly, but I expect that life is going to be tough for a lot of people. (Actually, it already is for places like Africa.)

The increasing scarcity of oil has reduced the standard of living around the planet. At the moment, we have oil companies bragging about all of the wonderful new gas and oil deposits that they have found, and how we shall soon be oil-independent. Baloney. All that you have to do is look at the price of oil to know the truth. From 1990 to 2000, the price of oil was around $10 to $14 a barrel. Now it's bobbing in the range of $80 to $120 a barrel. That's all that you need to know. It's the law of supply and demand at work. The price of oil will drop only when there is sufficient supply to fill everybody's needs. We don't have any such supply, so the price of everything from gasoline to food to heating fuel is going up. And like some giant leech, that is sucking the lifeblood out of the economy.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The planet's last superpower is rattling its half-empty
**  oilcan at the poorest continent in the world.
**    == Paul Salopek, Chicago Tribune, July 29, 2006

[The next letter from Royski_W is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Meghan_S ]

Date: Tue, November 27, 2012 2:21 pm     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "MEGHAN S."
Subject: Hello There

Why are you so against Alcoholics Anonymous?

Hello Meghan,

The answer is, because A.A. is just a fraud and a hoax and quack medicine that kills more people than it helps. I am opposed to A.A. in the same way as I'm opposed to quack clinics in Tijuana that pretend to cure women's breast cancer with injections of colloidal gold.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of alcoholism, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.

[The previous letter from Tom_H is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Tom_H ]

Date: Wed, November 28, 2012 9:02 pm     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Strange that our backgrounds are so similar......

I, too was the only person that "graduated" sober in my entire' treatment center' class. I also was the only one that did not read the big book or work the steps or have a sponsor. I have also closely observed that it's very, very seldom one will see a young person become sober under the age of 30. The perplexing issue is the 100,000 + alcoholics that die from this malady each year.. Are they simply so "alcoholic" or so mentally flawed that they have lost the "choice' to make a decision concerning their deadly habit. I think they have gone past the point of no return where no organization or group can work with them. I am not sure if the high suicide rate is because of the AA program. I believe the group of the 100,000 dead alcoholics annually only hope is when the medical field starts treating, in the future, these sick individuals with specific medications. I trust that someday the medical profession will find a medical cure for this riddle, and that Alcoholics Anonymous will continue, purposely, to slow down the medical progress. What a mess. What a sad mess.

Happy Holidays to you.

Hello again, Tom,

I have to agree. I think that much of what gets labeled as "alcoholism" is really mental illness like depression or bipolar disorder. In fact, Bill Wilson himself was a chronic depressive, somebody who spent many years disabled by chronic clinical depression.

Then there are people who are in a lot of pain — physical or mental — and they are just trying to kill their pain.

Then, to make matters worse, chronic use of alcohol is also very depressing, so the people who use alcohol to try to self-medicate just double their troubles.

Yes, we need much better medications for a variety of disorders. And of course A.A. will resist the use of medications, because proper medical treatment will render A.A. useless and unnecessary.

Have a good day, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The principles of Washington's farewell address are still sources
**     of wisdom when cures for social ills are sought. The methods of
**     Washingtons's physicians, however, are no longer studied.
**         == Thurman Arnold

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#William_N ]

Date: Thu, November 29, 2012 9:02 am     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "william N."
Subject: Addiction Counselor cited for DUI — Murder


Did you see this story?


Another "winner" of a drug & alcohol counselor. Although the article does not say specifically that this woman "counselor" pushed the 12-step program on her clients, I would bet dollars to donuts she did.

One thing in the story that struck me was many people from the decedents friends and family went to court to show their support. Nowhere does it say anyone showed up in court to support the accused woman. My question is, where happened to all that unconditional love and support from the recovery community? So much for that, huh?


Hello Bill,

Thanks for the reference. Yes, that story is really something else, isn't it? What a counselor. Just the kind of person who should get paid with our tax dollars and health insurance money to teach other people how to live, right? (Not!)

I also see that she didn't just relapse once or twice — she was a chronic relapser, and yet she was still a "counselor".

That story reminds me of my own cocaine-snorting child-raping "counselor", another jewel of a counselor who wasn't qualified to teach anybody anything.

One of the big problems with drug and alcohol treatment as it currently exists is that most of the so-called counselors are former addicts or alcoholics who learned that they could make a living by yammering the Stepper slogans that were just yammered at them. They benefit from Bill Wilson's crazy idea that a former addict or alcoholic is somehow better equipped to teach other people how to live — better than a doctor or a sane person. And those ex-convicts and ex-addicts work cheap, which is convenient for the "treatment center's" profit margins.

And yes, those counselors are mostly Steppers, because most of the treatment centers that trained them use 12-Step treatment. It's all that they know.

About the brethren counselors and fellow A.A. members not showing up and giving her some moral support and "fellowship" and "unconditional love", that doesn't surprise me. When my counselor was busted, the other staff people regarded him with bitter contempt and disgust because he had embarrassed them and made them look bad. Guys like him reveal that the whole TC organization is all a fraud with completely unqualified staff people who teach nothing. —Nothing that works, that is.

Oh well, have a good day now. And a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Paul_K ]

Date: Fri, November 30, 2012 4:45 am     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "Paul K."
Subject: possible factors in becoming an alcoholic

Hi Orange,

I am an alcoholic and I have written to you before.

I am now sober for 16 months.

I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you.

I once heard this bloke in AA, who had a lot of sober years, say words to the effect that he believed that for many alcoholics drinking alcohol, especially in the early years, caused a certain very intense powerful euphoria which is much greater (and sort of different too) than the milder sort of buzz and pleasure that most non-alcoholics get from drinking. And this was an important factor in why many alcoholics became alcoholics.

Do you think there is any truth to that?

Also, I have heard more than one AA member say that what a lot of alcoholics have in common was that they were people, even before they started drinking, that had a lot of irrational and neurotic but deeps fears. And this was a big factor in causing alcoholic drinking.

Again, do you think there is any truth in that?


PS Again, many thanks for the Orange Papers.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the letter and the thanks. And congratulations on your sobriety. That's good. You are over the hump.

About your first question: Yes, I think that alcoholics enjoy alcohol more. But please watch out there, because that statement is completely unsubstantiated and unscientific. I can only base my guess on personal experience. "Normal" people have a few drinks and say, "That's enough." Alcoholics say, "Hey, I'm just getting started. I'm on my way to Heaven." "Normal" people just don't care about alcohol that much. They get sick on alcohol once or twice, and they don't drink to excess much after that. Alcoholics won't stop trying to drink themselves into Paradise.

I suspect that the second question gives part of the reason why.

The second question, about pre-existing fears, insanity, and other factors: Oh yes, definitely yes. And that is well-substantiated, and medically and scientifically valid.

  • Child abuse is one of the biggest causes of alcoholism and drug addiction. Doctors have discovered that a part of the brain called the Cerebellar Vermis does not grow properly when the child is chronically abused, and chronically afraid. A shriveled-up Cerebellar Vermis causes a person to feel out of sorts and never quite right, and unable to feel joy like "normal" people, so they turn to drugs and alcohol to try to fix things. See the study of the Cerebellar Vermis for more on that.

  • Forty percent of all alcoholics and junkies were abused children. Sometimes the parents were alcoholics, sometimes dopers, sometimes just insane. Sometimes insane vicious religious nuts, or insane cruel alcoholic military sergeant fathers. Sometimes insane first, and then they used alcohol or dope to kill the pain of their insanity. Often, those abusive parents had been abused children themselves, and they were just passing it on. For whatever reason, they then abused their children, physically, or mentally, or both, and the children responded by using alcohol or dope to kill their own pain.

    • And, in addition, at least half of the people in prison for violent crimes were also abused children. Perhaps it's much worse than that — according to one survey, 85% of all violent prison inmates were abused in childhood.

    • Two-thirds of all teenage mothers were raped or sexually abused as children or teenagers.

    • Rape victims are ten times more likely than other women to use drugs and alcohol to excess.

    • In the U.S., at least one in ten women have been raped, almost two-thirds before the age of eighteen.

    • A recent survey reports that one-sixth of all rape victims reported to police are under the age of 12. (And this is the category of rape least likely to be reported.) One-fifth of these girls were raped by their fathers. They have been betrayed.

  • And then there are the people who suffer from various forms of mental illness, who use drugs and alcohol in a vain attempt to self-medicate and try to fix what's broken. Even Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., falls into this category: Bill Wilson was a raving lunatic who suffered from delusions of grandeur and a narcissistic personality disorder and chronic clinical depression, which neither alcohol nor the 12-Step religion ever fixed. And his psychiatrist, Dr. Harry Tiebout, told him so.

  • P.S.: 23 December 2012:   60 Minutes just came up with another one: Asperger's Syndrome. "Aspies" also often try to fix their condition with drugs and alcohol.

Have a good day now. And a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     These big confused human brains that we have seem to lead to
**     special troubles.  You don't see preacher chimpanzees or gorillas
**     telling their fellows, "Give me all of your bananas so that
**     you can go to heaven."

[The next letter from Paul_K is here.]

[The previous letter from Brian_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Brain_B ]

Date: Sat, December 1, 2012 3:30 pm     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "Brian B."
Subject: Re: papers

And have a good Christmas to you, Orange.

Hello again, Brian, and thank you. I shall.

Now you are saying that you don't see the cultish aspects of A.A. Well, that's changing the subject.
Interesting, and confusing. I don't see how that's changing the subject. Isn't that what you espouse on your web site, that AA is a religious cult? I just say I don't see the cult aspect, nor how that's changing the subject. Sorry.

You didn't quote the entire paragraph. You wrote: "I have looked at your web site with the link below." , and then you complained that you didn't see how A.A. was a cult religion from those links. The "links below" that I had sent were about reasons I did the web site, not about how and why A.A. is a cult religion. So of course you didn't see that information in those links. So I sent you more links to answer the second question.

you asked why I do the web site, so I told you.

That's where my ignorance interferes with my ability to understand you. I don't see how or when you told me. Without you explicitly saying "I do the web site because ..." then I am not sure why you do your web site. I assume it is because you feel AA is a religious cult that brainwashes its members. If so, that's cool, to each his own. I prefer to not assume but ask for explicit clarification.

Your attempts to use the Socratic method aren't working very well. Your repeated claims to be obtuse and ignorant are not convincing.

You can't read stories about girls dying and understand why I do the web site?

Okay, I'll make it explicit: I do the web site to get the truth out there. I want to tell the truth to several kinds of people:

  1. Sick alcoholics and addicts who are looking for something that will help them to get better. They need to know how well A.A. really works, and what it really is. They need to know what works and what doesn't, and what is true, and what is old cult dogma.

  2. Family, friends, and associates of alcoholics and addicts who want to help, and need to know what really works, and what is quackery and cult religion.

  3. Doctors and other health care professionals who might make the mistake of referring people to A.A.

  4. Judges, prison wardens, and parole and probation officers who might commit the crime of forcing someone into a cult religion while thinking that they are doing a good thing.

  5. Politicians and representatives and senators who control funding for drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs. They need to know what the truth is too.

Keep up the good work, questioning what you think is rubbish. It is interesting to hear and consider different points of view, though I disagree with much of yours. But congratulations on 12 years and the ability to maintain the web site. I look forward to continuing to explore and contemplate. Thanks! (I think) ;-)

Okay, and you have a happy holiday season too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
**       ==  George Orwell

June 10, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4, coming to me for munchies

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7, back again

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4, eating bread and oats

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 5, getting some oats

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Kirill ]

Date: Sun, December 2, 2012 6:24 am     (Answered 7 December 2012)
From: "kirill k."
Subject: Aa lies article

Just out of curiosity what don't have against AA? Have you ever attended a meeting?

Hello Kirill,

What I have against A.A. is that it does not work, and they lie about that to sick people and their families and friends. I'd be all for A.A. if it actually worked as they say.

You can see more on that in a variety of places:

  1. What's Not Good About A.A.?
  2. The 12 Biggest Lies of A.A.
  3. A.A. Horror Stories
  4. A.A. Suicides

Yes, I attended many A.A. and N.A. meeetings. You can start with the introduction to the web site to learn more about that. Then you can read more history here:

  1. the introduction, my introduction to A.A.
  2. the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick
  3. another friend goes missing
  4. who are you
  5. who are you, again
  6. really an alcoholic...
  7. A biography written for SOS

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

Date: Sun, December 9, 2012 6:05 am     (Answered 17 December 2012)
From: "kirill k."
Subject: Re: Aa lies article

Thank you for the links. I have started to read them. Very interesting so far. You seem very well spoken and educated. I am currently about 9 months in and regularly attending AA meetings. I previously had 2 years and relapsed. I'm on a journey of discovery and I will definitely look up all the references you posted.

Thanks again.
Wish you a happy holiday season :)

Okay, Kirill,

Thanks for the response. That sounds good. Good luck now, and have a Merry Christmas.

== Orange

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#Misty ]

Date: Tue, December 4, 2012 3:58 am     (Answered 7 December 2012)
From: "Misty"
Subject: Thank you.

Just wanted to say thank you for this amazingly well-referenced site.

I just went through the heartbreak of having to break up with my boyfriend because I kept getting the feeling more and more that AA seemed like a cult. I thought I would always be second to his obsession. Then I started to doubt myself and thought maybe it was just my perception, and decided to google it and see if anyone else on the internet suspected the same thing. Wow, I couldn't believe it.

I had no prior bias or exposure to AA and yet myself and so many others came to the same conclusion, and then I found your site backed up with references and rationale. I'm not the crazy one after all — I'm not the one who gave up their relationship blindly for a cult. He can enjoy his 3 hours a week smoking cigarettes with other degenerates while I finish my Ph.D and then go live life, out in the world.

Life is not meant to be lived in a smoky basement. I will not be the neglected wife and I'm sure as hell not going to Al-Alon meetings. Screw AA for manipulating weak people. It's wrong.

Thank you.

Hello Misty,

Thank you for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. I'm glad to hear that you have your head screwed on straight. Sorry about the troubles that you have had to go through, but I'm happy to see that you are rising above it. So yes, finish that Ph.D. and have a good life.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      True information, human intelligence, and reason
**      are the mortal enemies of cult leaders...

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html#CS ]

Date: Tue, December 4, 2012 6:54 pm     (Answered 7 December 2012)
From: "CS"
Subject: question


Finding your site a couple of years ago was a great experience, as it was the first I'd seen anyone speak out against "the cult"... after having a negative experience regarding a forum (not yours), I went back to your site to see where you stand on this particular subject — and it seems you take the same 'old-skool' approach as I do... So if you don't mind me asking, has anyone ever given you any flak about writing the abbreviation of "that program" as A.A. , and saying it must be written AA instead? An individual told me they would not use my article on their site unless they could change A.A. to AA throughout the entire article — so I'm no longer a member of their site, because I felt it was unreasonable and "controlling." thanks if you have time to express a viewpoint on this!


Hello C.S.,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. And thanks for an interesting question. This is the first time I heard of some nit-picker quibbling so insistently over whether Alcoholics Anonymous should be abbreviated with or without the periods. When I first began writing essays about A.A., I was wondering about that myself, so I looked in various A.A. books, and found that they did it both ways themselves. But the Big Book did the abbreviation with periods, so that is the standard that I adopted.

I just grabbed the first copy of the Big Book that I found handy, and it is a third edition. I opened it to page 510, and there it says:

"That was my attitude towards A.A. at the time."
I found nine more "A.A."s on that page and the following page, all with periods.

Likewise, page 221 says:

"In summing up, I can say that A.A. has made me, I hope, a real Catholic."
And again, at the start of the book, page "v" says:

Pioneers of A.A.
Then, I picked up the tiny dark blue pocket-sized paperback edition of just the first 164 pages, plus Dr. Bob's Nightmare — Fourth Edition — and on the fifth page (unnumbered, should be numbered "v"), the Table of Contents lists all A.A. references with periods, like,

  • The A.A. Tradition
  • The Medical View on A.A.
  • The Religious View on A.A.
  • How to Get in Contact with A.A.
And again, page 163 says:

We know of an A.A. member who was living in a large community.
Then I found a 2nd edition of the Big Book, and checked it, and that thing also uses A.A. with periods throughout, too.

So the A.A. headquarters is writing the A.A. abbreviation with periods. And they are copying how Bill Wilson wrote it.

On the other hand, I know I've seen other literature that abbreviates it as "AA". Now what those guys are doing is mimicking the style of government acronymns, like CCC, WPA, FBI, CIA, OMB, DOD, etc., which do not have periods in them.

For example, Francis Hartigan, Lois Wilson's secretary, wrote about Bill's philandering with the words,

"Besides what he was doing to the women he was chasing and to Lois, his behavior was a huge source of controversy in AA," Tom said.
Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Co-Founder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan, 2000, pages 171-172.
And "Mathew J. Raphael" (a pseudonymn), another biographer, wrote:

It seems that Wynn C. [Corum], See's father's second wife (he was her fifth husband), had once "come within a hair-breadth of becoming the First Lady of AA."
Bill W. and Mr. Wilson; The Legend and Life of A.A.'s Cofounder, Mathew J. Raphael, pages 130, 195.

Still, for that web site to refuse to publish what you wrote because you used periods is pretty uptight and anally retentive. They can't stand someone writing "A.A." the way that it is printed in the Big Book?

Well, that's a cult religion for you. Insanely nitpicking and quibbling. They are nuts.

Way back, just after World War Two, Eric Hoffer wrote about "true believers" in "mass religious movements", like popular cults, paying particular attention to the phenomenon of the Nazi Party, which was fresh in everyone's mind. He said:

"When some part of a doctrine is relatively simple, there is a tendency among the faithful to complicate it and obscure it. Simple words are made pregnant with meaning and made to look like symbols in a secret message. There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate true believer. He seems to use words as if he were ignorant of their true meaning. Hence, too, his taste for quibbling, hairsplitting, and scholastic tortuousness."
== "The True Believer, Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements", by Eric Hoffer, 1951, pages 79 to 80.
Yep, quibbling and hairsplitting. He got that right.

Have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    People unfit for freedom — who cannot do much with it
**    — are hungry for power. The desire for freedom is an attribute
**    of a "have" type of self. It says: leave me alone and
**    I shall grow, learn, and realize my capacities. The desire for
**    power is basically an attribute of a "have not" type of self.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer

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Last updated 9 March 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters333.html