Letters, We Get Mail, CDXVIII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Chris_L ]

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 05:33:00 -0400     (answered 19 November 2014)
From: chris l.
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Reply


I feel like I could write 500 pages on how things were done wrong at this PIR (probationeers in recovery) place but what it boils down to is that if you imply that you have a thing to do with staying sober or off drugs then that makes you a heretic. If you thank Bill W for giving you "in recovery" then they might treat you like a decent human being but they really expect you to criticize the newer people for anything besides powerlessness and so on, anything as long as it starts with powerless (preferably dramatized greatly for effect) and ends with a thanks to Bill W for saving me (these rooms technically is the way it was put).

These people make the argument that we have a chronic brain disease that gets worse while we are sober no matter what we do but that recovery is the answer (really if you pay careful attention it is the obvious cause). Fear was inflicted by making examples out of people for what they consider heresy. This caused us not to be open with each other like in some other places in this world. If one of us wanted to avoid criticism, which is always justified by the chronic brain disease theory and the list of personality traits for an addict published by AA (which is I believe encompassing of humanity and should include "breathes air"), others would confront resistant people for the counselors in return for being treated like a decent human being.

I will give one example as it is when things got real bad for me, after a few months of them desperately wanting to catch me dirty on a drug screen a new guy showed up and went to corner of room during typical group hug thing well " obviously this guy has the disease". Over the next few weeks they did the same insulting confrontational things to this guy as they did me although I'm not sure they considered him a heretic yet. Within a month and before he changed to their way of thinking, he shared one day that he now had a girlfriend, nice car, new job (he had a job they made him quit) life is good now. Naturally I was naive enough to say "well it sounds like after the year or so here you might not have any reason to ever go back".

The counselor quickly interrupted with "We've just found that doing that without recovery it gets worse" (meaning his disease). This is nonsense and did not apply to him. I'm not sure what more you can ask for in his case.

They proceeded to make up a holiday that was on a Monday, it was Presidents' Day, she announced that Monday is a holiday enthusiastically on Friday so I didn't go on Monday. She must have spoke to the rest of them because it was on Monday in 9 days. I wanted to agree with that lady about something so bad that I didn't even look at the calendar, not that they even care about the law or anything else when it comes to a heretic. That got me a 30 day add on to the program which she literally had an orgasm giving me (not really just a smirk and obvious delight in the moment). She did have an orgasm in a sexual way when one other told her about their sponsor and how they see it now, that says a lot about these people for me personally.

I received another 30 day add on for jaywalking on our lunch break after being encouraged to run across the street by another group member who did not receive any punishment.

This is when I decided to just buckle down and jump through their hoops to get out of there and on with my life. Which I think all they wanted is to be able to say is that I thanked Bill W for anything that sounds good and to be able to use me as an advertisement for recovery so they can look more favorable in the eyes of any newcomer.

I know this might sound like I'm complaining about a theme that has been posted on the Internet and is known plus this happened back in 2001, it's just that nothing has changed and we know better. My point is that treatment for addiction should have a mission statement that says learn from what doesn't work rather than "trust" something that is supposed to (or has to at any cost).

Dr. Lance Dodes put it much better in his latest book, but I won't bother to quote recommended reading, while reading his books I found that I agreed with him more than I was learning and I'm sure that has something to do with the 13 years since I have done meth or even pot and believe me I have had 500-600 opportunities where I had to make that decision. Honestly the first one mattered the most and Bill W or one of his "friends" would have loved to ruin that more than anything.

I'm left with a question that I will leave open and is the most controversial of all I think and that is if you wanted to control the population where would you start? (demoralized addicts and elementary school kids) It's scary how misguided people can become and yet so obvious by communicating with them how they have been manipulated to misunderstand so many convenient concepts.

Sent from my iPad

Hello Chris,

Thank you for the letter. I'm adding your letter to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

I don't think that you are just complaining. You are pointing out that "treatment" for a "disease" should be much more than a vindictive, sadistic, routine of making people conform to a cult religion. And you couldn't be more right.

I find all of your points to be true. Of course you are not powerless over drugs and alcohol; how could you have quit and stay quit if you were powerless? Of course Bill Wilson didn't save you — he's dead — you saved yourself. You have everything to do with your recovery and your continued avoidance of meth.

"Alcoholism" and "addiction" are not diseases that progress even when you are not using. I know that one for sure because I first quit drinking back in 1987 and stayed quit for 3 years. But then I made the horrible mistake of "just having one" and got sucked right back into the habit for another 9 years. When I started drinking again, I started back at the level where I had quit — at exactly the same consumption level — no less, and no more. My tolerance and thirst had not changed in those 3 years of abstinence. It took nine more years of drinking for my drinking to ramp up to fatal levels.

The "disease" did not "progress" while I wasn't drinking. Quite the opposite. I recovered from alcohol abuse, and my body healed, even though I wasn't going to A.A. meetings or "working the Steps". Those three years of sobriety and recovery saved my liver from cirrhosis later. My doctor was pleasantly surprised when he saw the results of the lab tests (at the end of my drinking career) that showed that my liver was not destroyed, and was in fact still in good condition. Rather than my disease invisibly progressing during those three sober years, my liver was really recovering and my health was improving. All of those years of clean and sober living count as real recovery, no matter whether someone is going to 12-Step meetings or not.

— Which leads to: "Recovery is healing your body by abstaining from drinking or drugging or smoking, and by eating right and taking care of your health. A.A. meetings and 'working the Steps' have nothing to do with recovery from a 'disease'." A.A. does not get to redefine "recovery" as going to A.A. meetings and doing A.A. activities and cult busywork.

Ask any good doctor what recovery from cancer or tuberculosis or the Black Plague or Ebola is, and he will not tell you that it is going to meetings and practicing cult religion.

You mentioned "the latest book" by Dr. Lance Dodes. I'm not sure which one that is, but I'm guessing that it must be "The Sober Truth". Readers have recommended his books before. (Now I have to read them, and give a book report.)

  1. Melanie recommended "The Heart of Addiction" by Lance Dodes, M.D.
  2. Darrell recommended "The Heart of Addiction" by Lance Dodes, M.D.
  3. John McC. recommended "The Sober Truth" by Lance Dodes, M.D.
  4. And then I find that I have "Breaking Addiction: A 7-Step Handbook for Ending Addiction", by Lance Dodes, M.D., in my library. I still have to read it.

About your last point: Yes, obviously, controlling people is what the program is all about. A very interesting man named Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson grew up in a tiny cult where his father worshipped the cult leader, and he wrote a book about the experience, My Father's Guru. Then he went on to write other very provocative books that criticized psychotherapy as just another attempt at imposing mental slavery. His book Against Therapy; Emotional Tyranny and the Myth of Psychological Healing spoke about that: After describing the horrendous physical, psychological and sexual abuse to which a cruel Dr. Rosen subjected his patients, Masson asked,

The point of this book is to raise precisely this question: Is Rosen an exception, or is there something about psychotherapy, something in the very nature of psychotherapy, that tends toward such abuses? Are these abuses or simply the use that is made of psychotherapy? A prison warden, a slaveholder, and a psychotherapist have in common the desire to control another person. (The analogy may appear inexact, for the person in therapy, many believe, is free to leave or quit. I don't believe this is true, though it would require a discussion of the concept of "informed consent." Nevertheless, the parallels are striking. We know for a fact that many slaveholders thought of themselves as kindly and argued that slaves were lucky to have them as masters, for others would be worse. Medical doctors at Auschwitz argued that if they didn't do what they did, others would do it more brutally. People who participate in causing suffering to others often employ this argument.)
(Page 147.)

"A prison warden, a slaveholder, and a psychotherapist have in common the desire to control another person."
Twelve-Step "therapy" and "drug and alcohol rehabilitation" have the same problem. They abuse people in the name of "helping them". They seek to control the behavior of others, and they often try to do it by cruel means.

John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859:

The only purpose for which power can be rightly exercised over any member of the community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant... Each person is the proper guardian of his own health.

In 1869, John Stuart Mill published his essay on "The Subjugation of Women":

But was there ever any domination which did not appear natural to those who possessed it? ... the generality of the male sex cannot yet tolerate the idea of living with an equal... In the present day, power holds a smoother language, and whomsoever it oppresses, always pretends to do so for their own good...

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

[The next letter from Chris_L is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Greg_H ]

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:45:58 -0700     (answered 19 November 2014)
From: "Greg H."
To: "Orange" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Film completion


I just wanted to drop you a line and let you know after nearly three years we are getting ready to release our film. The early reviews from test audiences have been nothing but positive.

Although the film delves into many aspects of the misleading addiction treatment industry, the very first myth we expose is AA.

The PR plan is to do a big media event around a world premiere at a major film festival. We are working on the details now. As I am sure your readers would be interested, I will keep you posted as to our release/launch date.

Approximately what number of readers/subscribers do you have? Thanks again for your help earlier on, take care and we'll talk soon.


Greg Horvath
President, Greg Horvath Productions, LLC

Hello again, Greg,

I'm glad to hear the news. I'll help to publicize your film any way that I can.

By the way, what's the name of the film?

I don't know how many readers or forum members there are. The last reliable numbers that I had was 6 million hits per month last year. But now the statistics aren't working, and they would be goofy anyway because some Stepper has been launching Denial Of Service attacks on the web site, which produces hundreds of millions of hits. So who knows what the accurate numbers are.

Likewise, the spambots hammer the forum, and register hundreds of thousands of fake user accounts, trying to get the ability to post spam on the forum. So figuring out how many active, legitimate subscribers there are is very difficult.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The belief which we find thus questionable, both as being
**     a primitive belief and as being a belief belonging to an
**     almost-extinct family, is a belief that is not countenanced
**     by a single fact.
**       ==  Herbert Spencer, Principles of Biology,
**         Volume 1, page 336, published 1864 to 1867.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Gator ]

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 19:12:14 +0000     (answered 19 November 2014)
From: "Gator"
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Great article!


Wow what fascinating bits of information concerning this individual Bill Wilson? I find this article very interesting? Would like to know more about the skills and talents of the individual who wrote this article? Who wrote this fascinating article?


Hello Gator,

Thanks for the compliments. The autobiographical information is here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     What a long, strange trip it's been.
**       ==  The Grateful Dead

September 16, 2014, Tuesday, my yard in Forest Grove, Oregon:

Bee feeding frenzy
The bees are having a feeding frenzy again.



Child Annas Hummingbird
The Child Annas Hummingbird
This child appears to be skinny and emaciated. Not really. It is skinny all right, but not emaciated. The thing is, they have to grow up very fast. They fledge within a month of hatching out, which is just unreal. They accomplish that by growing their skeletons large as fast as possible, so that they have the wingspan and can start flying, and then they fill out their bodies later. So this child is basically skin and bones at this point, and eating all day long to fatten up and fill out.

[More bird photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Anonymouse ]

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 21:06:37 -0800     (answered 19 November 2014)
From: Anonymouse
To: [email protected]
Subject: David Gates tip

Well the story is partly breaking on Vice.com regarding Morning Side Recovery's illegal affiliation with A Sober Way Home in Prescott AZ. David Gates has been identified as being involved with illegal kickbacks to Sober Way. David Gates now works for Northbound Treatment Services the same company that hired the ex CEO of Gatehouse Academy after his conviction. Northbound also uses the old Gatehouse Academy marketing material at Gatehouseacademy.com. Northbound Academy also employs Paul Alexander from Morning Side Recovery.

Just so you know Orange papers could have broken part of this story. If you would like a direct comment to the Vice article let me know. I worked in Prescott for years and toured A Sober Way Home. I have four friends that work for A Sober Way Home. A Sober Way also employs ex Gatehouse Academy staff. If you guys plan on having this article up on your web sight and would like an insider view let me know i would love to add to the story. If not i encourage you to follow the story over at Vice.com search "Dying for treatment". Morning Side Recovery is partly affiliated with Gatehouse Academy and Northbound Academy. At least help to spread the word that David Gates is possible up to his old tricks working for the company that took over the Gatehouse Academy Web sight.

Hello Anonymouse,

I'm very interested in the story, and would like to see all of the information that you have. Thanks.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Cy Cheze brilliantly points out the obvious: corporations
**     might be better called "irresponsibilitions."
**     Their sole purpose in existing is to allow people to be
**     able to commit crimes without being able to be held to
**     account.  "Limited liability" = "limited
**     blame-ability" = "limited responsibility"
**     = "irresponsibility"
**        ==  dark goob (Nov 11, 2011)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Puranjay_S ]

Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 00:04:43 +0530     (answered 19 November 2014)
From: Puranjay S.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Your analysis is unreal. I'm blown away


I found your site through a link on aPath.org and I've been digging through it for the last 2 hours.

I just wanted to drop by and say that I'm totally blown away. The way you analyze cult-like behavior is seriously eye-opening.

The only thing I truly wish is if it was possible to browse through the material in an easy to navigate manner.

But otherwise, whoa man. This is amazing stuff.

— An admirer

Hello Puranjay,

Thanks for all of the compliments. I shall have to think about how to make it easier to navigate.

Anybody have any ideas?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     O, it is excellent, To have a giant's strength;
**     but it is tyrannous, To use it like a giant.
**       ===  William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Diana_C ]

From: diana c. To: [email protected] Subject: you seen this? Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 20:50:05 +0100

I doubt you watched MadMen (I did), but have you read this?


There may be a few "facts" that the author does not know about.

from Rome, Italy

Ah, hello again, Diana,

Long time, no see. I think it's been years since I've heard from you. I'm glad to see that you are still alive and kicking in Rome.

Thanks for the tip. No, I had not even heard of MadMen. Sometimes I'm just a culturally-deprived child.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The history of human opinion is scarcely anything more
**     than the history of human errors.
**       ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)

September 16, 2014, Tuesday, my yard in Forest Grove, Oregon:

Child Annas Hummingbird
Child Annas Hummingbird
This little Annas Hummingbird looks like it's a girl, because there isn't a hint of red on her head or throat.

Irridescent Annas Hummingbird
Irridescent Annas Hummingbird
In this light, the child is beginning to show the classic irridescence of an Annas Hummingbird.

Irridescent Annas Hummingbird
Irridescent Annas Hummingbird

Child Annas Hummingbird
Child Annas Hummingbird

[The story of the birds continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#emkate ]

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:46:02 -0500    (answered 23 November 2014)
From: emkate
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: AA paper

Sounds like you have some resentments! Interesting paper. Inflammatory and wrong but interesting. Went to a count down meeting not long ago of over a thousand recovering alcoholics and the longest length of sobriety was 62 years. At the national convention last year there was tens of thousands of people there celebrating the fact they are alive.

The question is simple, and I know the answer. Are you an alcoholic? Don't judge something you will never understand. We don't ask you for your support or approval. People die because addiction kills people. Don't lay that at AA's door. They don't claim to have the all the answers the just say what worked for them. The simplicity of it is what drives the over analytical insane. As shown in your work. We just know what walking death feels like and don't want to be there anymore.

Hello Emkate,

Thanks for the letter and the questions.

First off, you should understand that the Countdown at A.A. conventions is a publicity stunt that is not mathematically valid, or logically valid, either. They assume that people who are sober were somehow made sober by A.A. or the 12 Steps. There is no evidence to support that assumption. Quite the opposite. All of the proper medical tests have shown that A.A. does not work.

The truth is that a whole lot of people go to A.A., and a few people sober themselves up. Often, they have already quit drinking before they ever go to A.A. And they have to do the quitting themselves, and they have to keep themselves sober, and then A.A. steals the credit. But A.A. never takes the blame for the millions of failures.

The Countdown never asks about the failures. For every sober person you see standing up and bragging about his years of sobriety, there are 19 or 20 A.A. failures who don't bother to attend the conventions. So the cheerleaders are "counting the hits and ignoring the misses" in those Countdowns. The proper name for that is "Observational Selection", and it's a common propaganda trick. (Click on that link for an explanation.)

Am I an alcoholic? I answer "yes", but please be careful of the definitions. A.A. uses at least four difference definitions of the word "alcoholic", and mixes them up, which really confuses the issues. Sometimes an alcoholic is somebody who drinks too much, and sometimes, he is someone who is unable to quit drinking, and sometimes he is somebody who is hyper-sensitive to alcohol, and sometimes he is a disgusting sinner.

I just explained those definitions in a previous letter, so I'll point you to them here:

I don't care whether you approve of me.

This line is a generalization, and untrue: "People die because addiction kills people."
No, addiction does not kill people. People can stay addicted to drugs like opiates for 20 years and not die. What kills people is overdoses, or cirrhosis of the liver, or lung cancer, or suicides, or even malnutrition and general deterioration. (By the way, don't you know that more alcoholics die from tobacco than die from alcohol? The lung cancer and emphysema and pneumonia kill them, just like how they killed Bill Wilson.)

Yes, A.A. is responsible for deaths. A.A. actually raises the death rate in alcoholics, and the rate of binge drinking, and the costs of hospitalization.

This slogan exhibits the typical A.A. anti-intellectualism: "The simplicity of it is what drives the over analytical insane."
Wrong. Frank Buchman's cult religion is not "simple", and it does not work to make people quit drinking. And I am not over-analytical, I am just realistic, and I'm not insane.

I agree with this sentence:
"We just know what walking death feels like and don't want to be there anymore."
That is why I quit drinking too. And A.A. had nothing to do with it. I just decided that I was not going to die that way. So I didn't.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Keeping your body healthy is an expression of gratitude to
**     the whole cosmos — the trees, the clouds, everything.
**         ==   Thich Nhat Hanh

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#CM ]

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 22:56:50 -0800     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: C M
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why Mr. Orange?


May I ask why you have put forth such a sustained, enormous effort toward discrediting A.A.?

Let's just say for the moment that all your arguments are correct and useful. Are you happy? Are you content?

Did A.A. do you a disservice? If so, why not just offer your experience?

Even if you are right that A.A. has done wrong by some people, do you see it as your job to turn all possible seekers away from A.A? If so, why do you see that as your mission?

I believe that you are sober and have done so without A.A. because you say so and I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

But do you have some peace of mind? The volume of work, and the tone of your work, seem to indicate that you are still very upset about something.

If I understand the A.A. program, and I'm not sure I do, at least not completely, it is not only to stop drinking, but offer some tools for calmer, more peaceful living. Have you found something that helps you live with such peace? If so I'd be very interested in hearing about it, because frankly, I find all kinds of things about A.A. that aren't attractive.

If you care to offer any answers, I'll definitely read them.

And I wish you well.

C. Michael M.

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the letter and the questions.

I've explained my motivation for doing the Orange Papers web site many times, in several different ways. Look here:

  1. Why did I make all of these pages? For a lot of reasons.

  2. About the motivation for creating the site, that is funny. I never set out to create any such thing. I was just going to write a 30-page essay about A.A. and what I saw as its failings and why it was inappropriate for use in treatment programs.

  3. the introduction, my introduction to A.A.

  4. the "treatment" bait-and-switch trick

  5. another friend goes missing

  6. who are you

  7. who are you, again

  8. really an alcoholic...

  9. definitions of "an alcoholic"

  10. Rat Park and Other Children's Stories

  11. How did you get to where you are?

  12. A biography written for SOS

  13. history of the Orange Papers, and

  14. censorship, the Orange Papers censored and erased by Yahoo Geocities

  15. the "Orange" name.

  16. There are some recent pictures of me and my little friends here and here and here.

I can sum it all up by saying that I saw that A.A. did not actually work as a cure for "alcoholism" or addictions, but it was being sold as the standard cure by most of the so-called "treatment programs" in the USA. So somebody had to say something. Somebody has to tell the truth.

Then you asked, Let's just say for the moment that all your arguments are correct and useful. Are you happy? Are you content?

I am relatively happy and contented, but not completely. I don't think anybody gets total happiness in this life. I even remember a Christian minister who said that we should be happy, but not completely happy, while so many people suffer around us.

You asked, do you see it as your job to turn all possible seekers away from A.A?
My job is just to tell the truth. Whether people choose to attend A.A. meetings after they learn the truth is their choice. Some do. I even have the Newcomers Rescue League, which is a bunch of good people who go to A.A. meetings to save the newcomers from the bad sponsors and Big Book thumpers.

You asked, The volume of work, and the tone of your work, seem to indicate that you are still very upset about something.
The volume of work is just because I've been at it for 13 years. Upset about something? Well, yes, I consider it a fraud and a crime to foist an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties on sick people and lie to them about how well it works. That is also the crime of practicing medicine without a license, which must stop.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his
**     own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for
**     his nation, his religion, his race, or his holy cause.
**     A man is likely to mind his business when it is worth
**     minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own
**     meaningless affairs by minding other people's business.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Meshblorg ]

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 22:53:47 -0800     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Meshblorg
To: [email protected]
Subject: Audio book version of How A.A. Steals Your Soul?

I like to listen to audio books while I drive. Is this available?

Hello Meshblorg,

Thanks for the question. Alas, the answer is "No, not exactly. Not that I know of." However, there are computer programs and apps that will read books out loud for the blind. And I'm pretty sure that there are computer programs that will convert text files to speech, so you could convert your favorite web pages into audio files and then listen to those.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In a world of the blind, the one eyed man is a pariah. Ask Galileo. Ask Darwin.
**       ==  OKParrothead

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Laura_L ]

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:30:42 +0000     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: <laura l.>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Hello:

I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have a question: do you know if Bill Wilson was familiar with the work of Milton H. Erickson?

Thank you for your writing.


Laura L.

Hello Laura,

That's a good historical trivia question, and I don't know the answer to that. Does one of the readers?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Education Is Not the Filling of a Pail, But the Lighting of a Fire."
**      ==  W.B. Yeats

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Lew ]

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2014 22:12:20 -0500     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Lew
To: [email protected]
Subject: Been a while

Hey bud its been awhile. I'm the crazy asshole that was ranting about naltrexone a couple years back. It worked for awhile, til I figured out how to time the med so I could still catch a buzz. Its interesting to me that I could satisfy the physical cravings and stave off the DTS. But I still craved something else? Anyways, I decided to just drink. I think guys like me just get something else from alcohol that makes us feel normal?

I also want to say that I live in a city that is rife with heroin overdoses. And naltrexone has saved more than a few lives lately. Our EMTs are now stocking the stuff. Maybe, there is something there. Stanton Peele may be onto something with harms management? Anyways, just thought I'd let you know about my experience with naltrexone....

Lew =-O

Hello Lew,

Thanks for the report. That is just what I wondered about, when people take chemicals to stop drinking. The old Lizard Brain can figure out a work-around to still get high. With more primitive drugs like Anabuse, the person can simply "forget" to take that Anabuse, so that he doesn't get sick when he drinks.

The previous comment was that Naltrexone works, and Lizard Brain doesn't figure out how to defeat Naltrexone, but you are reporting that the little monster is clever enough to do it.

Yes, that is what I was afraid of. Lizard Brain is quite an interesting creature. Most of the time, he seems so moronic that he can't think beyond the "Five F's": Feed, Fuck, Fight or Flee, and Feel good. But at other times, he seems to have a diabolical genius for figuring out ways to get high.

I still think that chemicals may help some, but there is no substitute for a determined desire to not drink alcohol. As long as there is that lingering desire to drink, there is a good chance that someone will fulfill the desire, sooner or later. What is essential is "setting your will", and "enhancing motivation" to not drink. That is the process of reducing the desire to drink, and increasing the desire to remain sober.

I spoke about setting your intention here:

And links to all of the letters about Naltrexone are here:

This line is important: But I still craved something else? Anyways, I decided to just drink. I think guys like me just get something else from alcohol that makes us feel normal?
Yes, I know that feeling. Perhaps it comes from having a damaged Cerebellar Vermis as a result of childhood abuse. Or maybe your feelings are caused by lingering effects of PTSD or some condition like Bipolar Disorder. Or maybe you have a broken gene that made your dopamine receptors in your brain grow in less than optimal ways.

Have you seen a doctor? I mean a really good doctor? Someone who is perceptive enough, and sharp enough, to get at the underlying cause. Far too many doctors and psychiatrists stop looking for answers as soon as they hear the word "alcohol". They just diagnose "alcohol abuse", and assume that all of the patient's problems are caused by alcohol. without asking, "But why alcohol abuse? What is he trying to fix?" We were just talking about that, here:

Thanks again for the report. I like to get feedback and hear how things work out.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The miserable have no other medicine,
**     But only hope.
**       ==  William Shakespeare (1564—1616), Measure For Measure, Act III, Sc. I, line 2

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Colleen_P ]

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 10:21:12 -0600     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Colleen P.
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Good article on AA

Sent from my iPhone

Thanks, Colleen.

And you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     How far that little candle throws his beams!
**     So shines a good deed in a naughty world.
**       ==  William Shakespeare  (1564 — 1616)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Bob O. ]

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:49:44 -0500    (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Bob O.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Religion

I am considering starting a new 12-step religion by combining XA and Mormonism and I will call it Moronism. What are your thoughts? Thank you for all you do.
Long Island Bob O

Hello again, Bob,

Thanks for the laugh. That's good.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
**     I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
**       ==  Spike Milligan

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Naples ]

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:56:42 -0500     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Naples
To: [email protected]
Subject: Bill W

He may not of understood his own program, but the program saved my life and the thousands I have touch over the last 23 years. Progress not perfection.

Hello Naples,

Alas, that is the commonest piece of misinformation that A.A. repeats endlessly. A.A. has not sobered up thousands or millions of people. A.A. actually raises the death rate in alcoholics, not the sobriety rate.

We just went over all of that again in a previous letter, here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism,
**    but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling."
**      ==  Dr. George E. Vaillant, formerly a member of the A.A. Board of
**    Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics
**    Anonymous, in "The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns,
**    and Paths to Recovery", Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA,
**    1983, pages 283-286.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Don_C ]

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:15:00 +0000     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Don C.
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Hello Orange

Hello orange. I could go on a long rant, but that wont serve either of us. I just want to say thank you for the work you have done: you nailed it my friend. Have you ever investigated Bill Wilsons military service claims? He claimed to have been an artillery officer in the US Army. I suspect he is full of crap about this like everything else.

Hello Don,

Thanks for the question. And the answer is great:

Bill Wilson joined the Army very late in WW1, just months before the armistice, to avoid flunking out of college. He got a lieutenant's commission because he had been attending a small military academy, Norwich University.

Bill and his platoon were shipped to England, where they got held up for a month by an outbreak of the Spanish Flu in France. When they finally got to France, they were assigned to guard a remote French village way up in the mountains, far from the front, where they saw no action. Two weeks later the Armistice was declared and the war ended. Bill's platoon sat in that village for a couple of more months, and then was deactivated and shipped home. And that was Bill's entire military service.

But here's the kicker: When they were on the troop ship sailing from the USA to England, the US Navy dropped a depth charge right next to Bill's ship, and the bang was so loud that they thought they had been torpedoed, and the troops who were down below in their bunks started rushing for the ladders to board the lifeboats. Bill ordered them to stay in their bunks, and pulled out his pistol and pointed it at his own men and threatened to shoot them if they didn't obey his orders. That was the highlight of Bill's military career, the only time he pointed his weapon at anybody.

Later, Bill Wilson claimed that the incident proved that he wasn't a coward, because he kept his cool while his men were "panicking".

The story is described at greater length here:
and here:

Another curious point is World War II. Bill Wilson claimed that, when WWII started, he went down to the recruiting office and volunteered, but they wouldn't take him because he was too old. I doubt that. Bill was just a few months too old to draft — he was just over the line — but they were still taking back generals who were even 65 years old or older. Experienced officers were welcome. If Bill had really volunteered, I think they would have taken him.

That leads to this interesting piece of historical trivia:

Page 13 contains more falsified history:

When war broke out, with the possibility that he might be recalled to active duty, Bill suggested, on the basis of his authorship of the Big Book, that he be granted a royalty on book sales, as a means of providing income for Lois.

Oh how noble of Bill. "I have to provide for Lois in case I heroically die in the service of my country." There is no truth to that. And in another story, Bill said that the Army refused to take him because he was too old, but Bill still kept the money.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     There is more power in rock and roll and blue jeans than
**       in the entire Red Army.
**         == French socialist philosopher

September 19, 2014, Friday, my yard in Forest Grove, Oregon:

I think this is one of the young ones that was born last spring. They are becoming increasingly tame as they learn that I feed them and don't eat them. Instead of running away, this little guy is just looking at me.

Now, while he watches me, he is eating one of the sunflower seeds that he stashed in his cheeks earlier, when he was down on the ground collecting them, before I came along.

[The story of the birds continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html#Dennis_M ]

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:47:18 +0000 (UTC)     (answered 23 November 2014)
From: Dennis M.
To: Terrance Hodgins <[email protected]>
Subject: The Cult Tentacles Reach Deep

This e-mail exchange happened this morning. It's very troubling just how easy it is to suck people in to the madness. I hope my kids never get a positive drug test but if it were to happen, they had better tread carefully on what to do about it.

Dear Parent(s)/Guardian(s)-

I am writing to inform you that today **HS conducted the first random drug and alcohol testing session. Twenty five students from the qualifying student pool were randomly selected to betested. The random selection was done by the company that provides the tests for us. We gathered a saliva sample from each randomly selected student for testing. I sent the samples to the lab for testing today. Due to confidentiality concerns we will not share the names of students who were tested today. I encourage you to ask your student if he or she was tested today. Your student may tell you that he or she was randomly selected for a test today. If, after talking with your student, you have questions, please contact me at (XXX) XXX-XXXX. If your student was tested and the results are negative, I will not be in contact with you. If the results are positive, I will call you to set up a meeting to share the results. Generally we will get the results within 2 business days.

Sincerely, Mr. R.

Mr. R:

I'm very curious as to what happens when a student does in fact test positive. Obviously a meeting with theparents are held... what types of consequences does ***SC employ to the student(s), if any? What resources are recommended to the parents, if any? I am asking in a general sense, not specifically about my children.

Thanks. Dennis M


Here are the consequences for a positive test:

1st offense
Tobacco-42 Calendar Days
Alcohol-42 Calendar Days
Drugs-84 Calendar Days

During the period of suspension, the student is excluded from attending all extra-curricular activities. Re-testing may take place periodically throughout the school year. Student drivers will not be subject to action for a"positive" test for nicotine. However, parents of student drivers under the age of 18 will be notified of a "positive" test for nicotine. Rehabilitation Clause: On the first offense, the student may regain eligibility to participate after 21 days for tobacco products, 21 days for alcohol, and 42 days for drugs, if the student:

  • 1) presents documentation of an assessment by a qualified medical provider
  • 2) presents documentation of participation in a recognized multi-session treatment/assistance program;
  • 3) completes community service hours at *** High School as assigned by the principal or his designee; and
  • 4) has afollow-up "negative" test

2nd Offense
Tobacco- 90 Calendar Days
Alcohol-90 Calendar Days
Drugs- 365 Calendar Days

During the period of suspension, the student is excluded from attending all extra-curricular activities. Re-testing may take place periodically throughout the school year.

Student drivers will not be subject to action for a"positive" test for nicotine. However, parents of student drivers under the ageof 18 will be notified of a "positive" test for nicotine. Rehabilitation Clause: On the second offense, the student may regain eligibility to participate after 45 days for tobacco products, 45 days for alcohol, and 182 days for drugs, if the student:

  • 1) presents documentation of an assessment by a qualified medical provider
  • 2) presents documentation of participation in a recognized multi-session treatment/assistance program;
  • 3) completes community service hours at *** High School as assigned by the principal or his designee; and
  • 4) has a follow-up "negative" test

3rd Offense
Exclusion for the balance of attendance at *** CSC

Student drivers will not be subject to action for a"positive" test for nicotine. However, parents of student drivers under the age of 18 will be notified of a "positive" test for nicotine. Our goal, with the help of parents/guardians, students and the school staff working together, is to create a drug free environment at *** CSC.

The key is the rehabilitation clause which requires an assessment and treatment along with community service hoursat **HS and a negative follow up test.

We will provide some possible assessment places. Doing those things reduces the consequence time by half.

I think it is important to find out if a student needs help and to get that help if deemed necessary by a qualified assessor/counselor.

For an athlete, the consequences revert to the Athletic Code of Conduct which also includes an assessment,treatment and community service to reduce the time for the consequences. Hopefully that makes sense.

If not, please ask me questions so I can clarify. Thanks!

Mr. R

Mr. R:

Thank you for your prompt response and information. I find it very troubling. Kids at this age are unfortunately likely to experiment. I don't condone that they do so, but it's just a reality. If a teen has a lapse in judgement, gives in to peer pressure, whatever the case may be and tries a cigarette or alcohol just once and tests positive, this program could really derail their school career unnecessarily.

Even if a kid is regularly using something, suspending them from school can only make matters worse in my opinion.

Certainly they should suffer consequences and receive education on the potential harms they are facing, but I feel that suspending them from school will potentially damage their school career and possibly their future. Being caught with illicit substances on school property may warrant a suspension as it poses an immediate danger to others, but a positive test shouldn't necessarily be grounds for a suspension.

This worries me also: " 2) presents documentation of participation in a recognized multi-sessiontreatment/assistance program"
This suggests that a kid that experimented with something, and may not intend to do again, must get "treatment".

The overwhelming majority of treatment really means being introduced to 12 step programs which can be dangerous environments for the young and vulnerable. They are not safe places, they are full of sexual predators and other dangerous types. I can provide more information on this if necessary.

Unfortunately I don't have any bullet-proof solutions to offer but I do urge that the school system reevaluate the suspensions and forced treatment. I strongly feel that these actions can do more damage in some cases.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Dennis M

Hello Dennis,

Thank you for the letter. That is indeed frightening. That is so draconian that I can only call it fascistic. That program is far more suited to a state penitentiary than a high school.

A year suspension the second time a kid is found to have smoked pot? A year???

A friend of mine did three years in San Quentin for possession of three marijuana cigarettes back in the nineteen-sixties. It totally wrecked his life, and totally freaked him out. When he got out of prison, he hid away from society on a hippie commune way up in the mountains of northern New Mexico for the rest of his life. He died of old age a few years ago. Stories like his are one of the reasons that I welcome legalizing pot. I don't want to see any other kids punished in such draconian manners.

Notice that, in the last election, three more states legalized marijuana, so we now have Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Washington DC, and one other that I don't recall legalizing it. But this school administrator is going in the other direction and implementing intolerant policies that really will wreck a child's school career. And there is a good chance that he will be alienated from society and the power structure. It will not end well.

I agree that such policies will make matters worse. What are the kids supposed to do during those suspensions besides sit around the house and get high? And a year suspension will cement him into a new ego of "drug user". He and the other suspended kids can hang out together and do drugs for a year. What else will they have to do?

I agree that the "treatment" is highly questionable and dangerous. That school administrator just likes the sound of "treatment", but he does not have a clue what goes on in 12-Step groups, or in 12-Step-based "treatment". The teenage girls are highly likely to end up with STD's or pregnant, or both.

You didn't reveal what high school that was. I am curious. Is that actually a normal, civilian, tax-supported public school? If so, how did they get to be so crazy? Who let the Nazi in?

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings.
**     Reject the insidious pressure in society that would blunt your
**     critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that
**     would caution silence in the face of injustice lest you
**     jeopardize your chances of promotion and self-advancement.
**     This is how it starts, and before you know where you are,
**     you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack.
**     The price is too high.
**       ==  Jimmy Reid

From: Dennis M
To: Terrance Hodgins <[email protected]>
Subject: The Cult Tentacles Reach Deep
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 13:40:35 +0000 (UTC)

You didn't reveal what high school that was. I am curious. Is that actually a normal, civilian, tax-supported public school?If so, how did they get to be so crazy? Who let the Nazi in?

It is most definitely a civilian, tax-supported township school (Mount Vernon High School in Fortville, Indiana). I wasn't sure if I should publicize that but I guess it can't hurt.

I also wrote the Superintendent. He ignored nearly all of my points in his response, and just cited the most extreme circumstances to justify the policy:

Mr. M:

A lot of thought went into the decision to establish this program. We believe it gives young people another excuse to turn down the types of opportunities you mentioned. Our program is modeled after the program that has already been through the legal process and upheld by the Supreme Court. The use of drugs and alcohol present a danger regardless of the circumstances, but they are even more dangerous when used while driving or participating in the designated extra-curricular programs. If a student is high and dies in a car wreck on the way to school, it doesn't matter if it was the first or two hundredth time they got high. I understand your concerns, but the risk factors justify the program.

Fortunately, I received another e-mail shortly after this from the board that this Superintendent is retiring, and the board is seeking input on what we would like to see in a new one. I will definitely be sharing some thoughts.

Hello again, Dennis,

Thanks for the answer. Sweet.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
**     victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
**     robber barons than under omnipotent, moral busybodies. The robber
**     baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be
**     satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us
**     without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience....
**     To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not
**     regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet
**     reached the age of reason."
**       ==  C. S. Lewis,  "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment",
**           God in the Dock. William B. Berdmans Publishing Company,
**           Grand Rapids, MI, 1994.

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Last updated 18 January 2015.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters418.html