Letters, We Get Mail, CCLIV

[The previous letter from Rodney_R is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Rodney_R ]

Date: Wed, August 3, 2011 3:09 pm     (answered 6 August 2011)
From: "Rodney R."
Subject: Re: stuiped is as stuiped does

Fascinating!!!!!!! We can justify anything,, I bet you were once in A.A. and didn't make it so now your bitter and have sought other methods that better suited your life style — I couldn't afford those places and or treatments because I was broke due to drinking!!!!

Hello again, Rodney,

That is a really lame attempt to explain away information that disturbs your favorite superstitions.

The truth is, I quit drinking two weeks before I went to A.A., and I have 10 years of sobriety now. I also have 10 years off of drugs and cigarettes. I just quit everything at once by using self-reliance and my own intelligence and will power. And my determination not to die that way.

I went to A.A. and N.A. meetings for a short while, about 3 months, and then rejected them as just another cult religion.

I did get a so-called "treatment program", paid for by the Oregon Health Plan. That is where I learned that quackery and cult religion were being sold as a cure for drug and alcohol problems. That story is here.

Yes a scum buckett,,,, I WAS,,, Well, my suggestion is to hurry up and get all this help to those that need it,, because the court system and Hospitals still send them (hurting people ) to A.A./ I bet those DOCTORS you pointed out,, are keeping it to themselves or they are selling it to the highest bidder or to Insurance Companies,,,

Doctors keeping what to themselves? What are you talking about?

Now thats a mockery,,Regardless the Dollar Occult is still out there while others with The Truth,,lol,, stay quite ,,You know I once heard that those that do nothing usually find Fault with those that do something!!!!!!! Just saying- Keep up the Good Work-Fault finding is really hard work...NOTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm fumilure

Rodney, I both find fault with quack cures and suggest better alternatives. Look here for better alternatives.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

[The previous letter from UNNAMED is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#UNNAMED ]

Date: Wed, August 3, 2011 3:12 pm     (answered 6 August 2011)
Subject: Re: When you quit successfully — a question

Thanks Terrance for a great letter. On the genetic thing. On re-reading my letter I did come across as anti-genetic research being done on alcohol dependency. I did not mean that. All research for its own sake broadens knowledge. It is just that when it comes to the brain and genetics we are about in the 13th century as regards to its effective non destructive application. In Spain during this time doctors were called 'mata sanos' which means killers of the healthy .... and until whatever genes or combination thereof once isolated are fully understood .... policies regarding what to do with this new knowledge are best NOT MADE.

Have a great day


Hello Unnamed,

No worries. I was not referring to you when I talked about some people denying the genetic link to alcoholism. I was referring to the doctors and other authority figures who vehemently deny that there is any genetic component to alcoholism. As I said, that is a hotly debated topic. There are some people who have published very strident articles that insist that we have been looking for an alcoholism gene for 50 years now and have never found anything, so the genetic theory is thoroughly disproved.

No it isn't:

A Functional Neuropeptide Y Leu7Pro Polymorphism Associated With Alcohol Dependence in a Large Population Sample From the United States

This is only the second specific genetic mechanism ever identified that modulates risk for alcohol dependence.
(See: Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2002;59:825-831;

James Christopher's book SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs contains an interview with Dr. Kenneth Blum, who discovered the first gene that is linked to alcoholism.

Now some people who wish to believe that there is no genetic component to alcoholism try to dismiss their research as flawed, so the debate is still going on, hot and heavy. I hope that the newly-decoded human genome will give further hints and evidence. We will get it all figured out eventually.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: And then something else came to mind: The alcoholic monkeys in this video: Alcoholic Vervet Monkeys

That monkey population has the same percentages of alcoholics and tea-totalers as humans do, which strongly suggests a genetic factor that is common to everything from those monkeys to us. There is no way to argue that those monkeys and humans have the same environments, society, or childhood upbringing.

(So why don't more monkeys become alcoholics? Because they can't get a steady supply of alcohol.)

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience
**     The word "pseudo" means fake, and the surest way
**     to spot a fake is to know as much as possible
**     about the real thing, in this case science itself.
**       ==  author unknown

[The next letter from UNNAMED is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Patrick_H ]

Date: Wed, August 3, 2011 9:46 pm     (answered 6 August 2011)
From: "Patrick H."
Subject: Mind Blowing

I'm absolutely blown away by the amount of data and documentation you have gathered and assembled and made freely distributable. Its amazing.

I quit AA 3 1/2 years ago. I figured out much of what you have figured out. I started complaining about being tired of the lies, and then some members pointed me to you and accused me of mimicking you... like I'm not capable of figuring out the lies after 16 years. I kept looking around at others with the same amount of time and I realized they were abusing their status in AA, and they were not happy with me because I was not following in their and other's footsteps.

Screw them. When I decided to quit, I had nice young lady who had less than a year tell me she was really mad at me because she loved my message and I have so much time that I'm taking away from the program that she needs... she told me that RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY WIFE when we went out to eat and she was our waitress!!!

Amazing what a brain washing operation AA is. I have no desire to be involved in that crap anymore. Prison Yard / Psych Ward / Control Freak Fest assembly. I'm actually ashamed I forced myself to go there for so long knowing in the back of my mind what kind of sick crap goes on there. It hurt me quite a bit I think. Yea, I'm grateful for my sobriety, but I'm really ashamed I was in that organization. Every guru I met had some kind of sick crap they were doing in there.

One lady I met, a real guru, had been sponsored by one of the first 100. She was 20 years my senior and she kept grabbing my ass every chance she could get (without anyone noticing). What the hell?

Hello Patrick,

Thank you for the letter. And congratulations on your newfound freedom, and also for your sobriety, in all meanings of the word.

The story about the young lady who was so upset at you rejecting A.A. because it deprived her of the "message" that she loved is so revealing, isn't it? "Don't bother me with the facts; I don't want to hear the truth; I have my comforting fairy tales, and I don't want to lose my belief in them."

About the other old-timers, that just seems to come with the territory, doesn't it? It's really funny how both Frank Buchman and Bill Wilson managed to sell the idea that if you gather a bunch of sinners and degenerates and sick people and mentally ill people and criminals and alcoholics together in a room, and have them do some cultish practices, you will eventually get a bunch of saints. (Even though Bill wrote in the Big Book "We are not saints." Yes, but he also wrote, "Progress, not perfection," which implies that A.A. members progress towards perfection, and eventually The Promises will come true.)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply
**     flawed person will cure another deeply flawed person.
**     A dynamic fraught with peril.
**        == Anonymous

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Captain_Britain ]

Date: Thu, August 4, 2011 2:06 am     (answered 6 August 2011)
From: "Captain_Britain"
Subject: hi

hi terrence

thanks for your reply to my letter regarding the publishing of a book i dont blame you for wanting to hit the beach instead of the computer i,m not very good with computers myself i,m still on vacation at the moment but when i return to my town i intend to print some flyers with the website addresses of alternatives to the 12 step cults including your own website its been quite amazing since i left cult and got my brain out of hock i,m starting to realise the true extent of my own personal power and act upon it.

i will be entering the dens of AA when i get home and handing out flyers to the newcomers theres no point in trying to reason with the old timers their brains are addled with wilsonite doctrine the new methods of stopping drinking seem to be about empowering people to take control of their lives and actions and to put people in touch with their own personal power it makes sense.

Anyway terrence thankyou once again for the orange papers
your friend
captain britain NRL
ps added a couple of pictures to make you smile

anti-12-Step image             anti-12-Step image             anti-12-Step image            

Okay, Captain,

Thanks for the thanks, and the images.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      True information, human intelligence, and reason
**      are the mortal enemies of cult leaders...

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Mikhail_S ]

Date: Thu, August 4, 2011 2:18 am     (answered 6 August 2011)
From: "Mikhail S"
Subject: What is A.A.'s goal? What is your goal?

Hi Orange.

I have been sober for 11 months now. Was going to A.A. meetings and at some stage was very passionate about the 12 Step program. Was thorough and honest and was often invited to give speeches about miracles of the Program to those, who are less enthusiastic in their journey through 12 Steps. I am used to be a living example of "working the steps".

Everything changed for me when I started to carry "this" message in Step 12 last month. I've got a nice and pretty female sponsee (or she got me). And a difficult one. She was asking many difficult questions. I did not like her desire to know everything BEFORE working the steps. And at the same time, did not feel right to simply ignore her legitimate questions.

My sponsor, who has been in A.A. for forty (40!) years told me to say to my sponsee: "SHUT THE F@#K UP!". I must say, it was quite a discovery for me, since I was convinced that I should not be ashamed of standing together with God and carry His message.

Very soon I felt that when I carry "the message", I do not believe myself. What I say is "right", according to the Big Book and A.A., I say the same things I was told, but I simply felt there was something terribly wrong with it. I started to doubt if what I was doing was right.

On 24 July 2011, early morning, I asked myself a question: "What actually happened first? I sobered up, or worked the Steps?". I did not like the answer, but — it was ME who stopped drinking and smoking (after 15 years of doing both). I simply "was swallowing my fist" in the times when it was hard and did not take a drink or a cigarette no matter what...

I felt disturbed and cheated: A.A. was taking "credit" for my sobriety. Also — I was looking for help with alcohol and instead obtained membership in a cult.

When I discussed it with my sponsor (for the purpose of solving this inner conflict and getting back to my comfort zone), the guy who probably remembers A.A. being formed, answered: "I can debate about anything, but I am not prepared to debate about A.A. or the Steps — the most beautiful program in the World". Also that I can go and drink, that I will crawl back... That I hurt him... Asking about what happened to me, since I was working the Steps thoroughly etc.... And also — he asked me to keep away from meetings, so I can't harm anyone with my evil thoughts. (I did not "understand it", since "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking". In fact — I don't even have to call myself(or be) an alcoholic).

Thanks to my sponsor, by his actions, he confirmed everything I did not want to believe in: A.A. is a religious sect, open-mindedness does not exist there...

I found your Web-Site and... Well, thanks, you made a big job and put so many thoughts together.

I do not like to turn around 180° when actually things are working fine. I still go to meetings. Nowadays, I sit in my group of Alcoholics Anonymous and I have no bloody clue what for. I see a bunch of very nice men and women who with sincere interest discuss fairy tales. Well, having delusional aims and living in delusion, unfortunately leads to quite a real fall. And the pain from the fall is quite real as well.

I have stopped carrying the message, but my sponsee, told me a couple of days ago, that she feels that A.A. is a sect! Thank you, my dear... And what could I tell her? "Yes, it is!".

I speak to many people from A.A. about it. I carry my "evil" message. In the form of questions. The same ones I was asking myself. I feel like doing it BUT, I am confused with some issues:

  • 1) Why do I need to enlight A.A. members (by carrying MY message)? Is it not nicer to let people live in a happy delusional reality?
  • 2) Why do you "spoil the fun" for Alcoholics Anonymous? You are very harsh (sometimes, I think, too much. Also, some critisism of yours towards A.A. can also be applied to mainstream religions. To accuse religion or A.A. in irrationalism is like to accuse water in being wet). So, Orange, WHAT is YOUR GOAL (purpose, aim)???
  • 3) What is the REAL purpose of A.A.??? Is there a purpose besides pumping money from "poor" alcoholics?

What do you think?


Hello Mikhail,

Thank you for the letter and a bunch of great questions. And thank you for your pursuit of the truth.

Well, let's see if I can answer those questions.

  1. Why do I need to enlight A.A. members (by carrying MY message)? Is it not nicer to let people live in a happy delusional reality?
    That's a great question, one that reaches to the very core of life.

    First off, A.A. doesn't really give people a happy delusion. For every person who finds A.A. to be a happy fairy tale, 19 others grow disappointed and leave. Unfortunately, before they leave, they get taught that to leave A.A. is to relapse and die drunk in a gutter. And many make that a self-fulfilling prediction. And since they have also been taught that they are powerless over alcohol, some don't think they have any choice in the matter. The misinformation of A.A. takes its toll.

    Then there are the people who get told not to take their medications, and end up in the hospital or dying. Then there are the girls who get sexually exploited. A.A. isn't really such a happy fairy tale. And then there are the people like you and your sponsee who get told to stop looking for the truth. "SHUT THE F@#K UP!"

    Then there are all of the people who hear each meeting start with Bill Wilson's lie: "RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
    Many of the beginners think that A.A. actually works, and has a working program for sobriety. They don't realize that they are being sold an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties, and that it is all a big hoax. It really isn't fair to do that to them. They deserve the truth. Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people and lying to them about how well it works is really a despicable crime.

    Then there is the whole question of the meaning of life. Is the real purpose of life to just enjoy a comforting fairy tale until you die? If you believe in any kind of spirituality, then the answer to that question has to be "No." Like Jesus said, "Learn the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

    On the other hand, if you think that just whiling away your time happily deluded is an okay thing to do with your short, precious life, then why not just stay drunk and stoned all of the time? That is pretty much the same thing.

  2. Why do you "spoil the fun" for Alcoholics Anonymous? You are very harsh (sometimes, I think, too much. Also, some critisism of yours towards A.A. can also be applied to mainstream religions. To accuse religion or A.A. in irrationalism is like to accuse water in being wet). So, Orange, WHAT is YOUR GOAL (purpose, aim)???

    This is really the same question as question number one. And the answer is the same. "Spoiling the fun" by telling the truth is not a bad thing.

    Yes, most religions can be criticized for being irrational. But most religions don't pass themselves off as a magical cure for alcoholism and drug addiction. (I know, some do, I said most.)

    Then you tacked on another question: What is my goal? My goal is to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I believe that if people know the truth about A.A., alcoholism, recovery — the whole big thing — that it will help them.

    A few true believers may be disturbed by hearing the truth shattering their cherished illusions, but most people will benefit from the truth.

  3. What is the REAL purpose of A.A.??? Is there a purpose besides pumping money from "poor" alcoholics?

    Ah, now this is a complicated question. Alcoholics Anonymous is different things to different people. There are a whole lot of reasons and purposes.

    • As you hinted, some of the people at the top are only in it for the money, just the same as any other cult.

    • And many of the people at the bottom are in it because they are true believers and they love their comforting fairy tale and their guaranteed ticket to salvation, and the feeling of being special, "in with the in-crowd", just the same as any other cult.

    • Other people are old-timers with a lot of Time and status, and they get a lot of respect and admiration from the youngsters, and they don't want to lose that — they don't get it anywhere else.

    • Other people sincerely want to quit drinking and recover, and they have been lied to and fooled into thinking that A.A. actually has a working program for sobriety.

    • There are many more reasons. We have discussed all of this a few times before and made up much longer lists there, so look here, and here, and here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will
**     either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest.
**       —  Anonymous

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Kat ]

Date: Thu, August 4, 2011 8:01 pm     (answered 6 August 2011)
From: "Kat"
Subject: info on AA

I am just wondering where you get your information from. I find it really interesting since I have read some of the work on the onerecovery website. Please let me know. I would really like to know of the reference material this is based on.


Hello Kat,

Thanks for the question. My first source of information was, and still is, the official A.A. publications themselves, like the Big Book, and 12X12, and PASS IT ON, and "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age", and "Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers" and stuff like that.

And then sometimes, on some rare lucky occasions, some anonymous mouse sends me a goody like the A.A. internal document that I just got that talked about the problem of sexual exploitation of underage girls and women in A.A. groups, here.

And then a zillion other history books, and books about cults, and books about human psychology, and recovery, and addiction and alcoholism, and on and on... See the bibliography, here.

Then I use the local public libraries heavily, and also the local medical school library. I also use their databases and catalogs and indices. I described how I do that here and here.

I also do searches using my public library's access to EBSCO and other periodicals databases. Many of the best articles on these subjects are not directly accessible on the Internet (via a search engine like Google or Lycos); you have to go through a database like EBSCO or The Electric Library to get them (free).

And then of course I use the Internet. Wikipedia isn't very useful though, because the A.A. true believers delete any disturbing information within minutes of it being posted.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Knowledge is of two kinds: we know a subject ourselves,
**     or we know where we can find information upon it.
**       ==  Samuel Johnson  (1709 — 1784)

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23. continued:

drum circle in North Waterfront Park
Drum circle in North Waterfront Park, Portland, Oregon
[More gosling photos below, here.]

Date: Fri, August 5, 2011 1:29 am     (answered 7 August 2011)
From: "John M."
Subject: 13th stepping


That's a new one. It's the first time that I've seen an admission like this that 13th stepping constitutes sexual harassment as opposed to just women using AA meetings to find dates (though I have no doubt that occurs as well). If anything will bring down AA, I think this is what will.

Hi again, John,

Well it would be nice if that brought down A.A., or at least ended the coercive recruiting for A.A., but I kind of doubt it. A.A. has more tenacity, and is harder to wipe out, than a colony of cockroaches. A.A. has survived so many "crises" for so long that I think it will take more than a sex scandal to end it.

But one can hope.

At the very least, the growing public awareness of what A.A. really is, is slowly taking the shine off of A.A.'s stellar reputation.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Many of the demons of the darkness pretend to be creatures
**     of the light. Some of them have even fooled themselves into
**     believing that they are creatures of the light, and on the
**     side of what is true and right.  You can discover what they
**     really are by shining the light of truth on them, and seeing
**     if they immediately scurry into the shadows like cockroaches.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#John_M ]

Date: Tue, August 9, 2011 6:51 am     (answered 10 August 2011)
From: "John M."
Subject: 13th stepping

Hey Orange:

While I have no doubt that the AA Organization is strong and will try to combat these "isolated" 13th steppers, I think it will be just about as successful as the Catholic church trying to combat the "isolated" chomo priests. Legally, they may get off (no pun intended) but the public relations will be a nightmare. Which is kinda sad, actually, since it will ignore the voodoo science that they have been based on.

Hi again, John,

Indeed. Talking about the sexual abuse in A.A. doesn't even mention the quackery or ineffectiveness of using an old Nazi cult religion as a treatment program for addictions.

But maybe, just maybe, the truth will out eventually.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The Hungry Ghost
**     Hungry ghost: that dwells in consciousness, torments our desire 
**     Sexy ghost, a performer, a demon, a gadfly 
**     To never have enough be enough get enough 
**     Dancing on coals 
**     In a state of mind, bewitched, unsettled over
**     what he thinks or she thinks, what they think 
**     What the "I" thinks: hieroglyph for the hungry ghost
**     Unsatisfied — dancing on nails!
**        —  Anne Waldman, "Sleeping with the Hungry Ghost"
**         http://www.tricycle.com/feature/sleeping-hungry-ghost

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Ray_S ]

Date: Fri, August 5, 2011 1:25 pm     (answered 7 August 2011)
From: "Ray S."
Subject: taking over groups

I was reading about the Midtown mess:

..and saw this:

#28 "Later: And this is an interesting post: the MySpace group "The Fall of Midtown" has posted an article on how to keep your group from getting taken over by the Midtown group. It seems that Mike Q. and his gang have taken over 18 A.A. groups by invading them in large numbers and then voting the previous leaders out, and changing the rules to make the Mike Q. clique dominant. It sure sounds like an invasive cancer to me. (Or the Borgs: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.")"

This is exactly what fundamentalist AA in Miami did when people attempted Freethinker/atheist/agnostic meetings. Only one such meeting survived, probably because it was in a bad part of town on Sunday morning.

I'm glad there weren't more atheist/agnostic meetings, it makes all the other things wrong with AA less obvious.

Hello again Ray,

It's good to hear from you. Perhaps your experience in Miami was not just a coincidence. For a few years, legal things were getting to be too hot for Mike Quinones in Washington DC — the cops were asking a lot of questions about the statutory rape of underage girls, and where all the money was going — so Mike moved part of his gang to Miami, Florida, and set up the southern branch of his cult there. It is quite possible that you were not seeing copies of the Midtown Group, or look-alikes, you were seeing the actual Beast itself.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If we allow the fundamentalist nutcases to take over America, then
**     those of us who believe that God is love and compassion will be
**     ruled by those who believe that God really hates everyone but them.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Professor_G ]

Date: Fri, August 5, 2011 11:17 am     (answered 7 August 2011)
From: Professor_G
Subject: please do not post email address

I did not notice on the orange papers anything talking about the reason they called it the Big Book. Perhaps it is there somewhere and sorry if I missed it. I posted this on the X-steppers forum. Feel free to edit and add to your site it you would like.

Why We Call It The Big Book

A printer in Cornwall, NY, named Edward Blackwell, had been highly recommended to Bill Wilson. Blackwell was the President of Cornwall Press. So Bill and Hank Parkhurst (author of the personal story "The Unbeliever" in the first edition of the Big Book) went to Cornwall to see Blackwell. There they were told that the book would probably be only about four hundred pages when printed. That seemed a bit skimpy. They wanted to sell the book for $3.50 per copy. That was a very large sum in those days, probably the equivalent of about $50 today, and people might not think they were getting their money's worth.

They picked the cheapest, thickest paper the printer had, and requested that each page be printed with unusually large margins surrounding the text. This made for an unusually large book. Thus, the book came to be nicknamed the "Big Book."

Blackwell had an excess of red material for the bindings, so he offered them a special deal. Eager to save costs, Bill and Hank agreed. They also thought, according to some reports, that the color red would make the book more attractive and marketable.

== Taken from

There are many AA sites with the same basic story.
$3.50 in 1939 had the same buying power as $54.79 in 2011. Annual inflation over this period was 3.89%.
So what happened to "Our hope is that when this chip of a book is launched on the world tide of alcoholism, defeated drinkers will seize upon it, to follow its suggestions." — page 153 of BB
"Though we work out our solutions on the spiritual as well as an altruistic plane" — page xxiv in the BB
"We feel, after many years if experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them." — page xxvi in the BB

altruism: unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

And this:

"We would like it understood that our alcoholic work is an avocation"

== Taken from page xiii, Foreword to First Edition

avocation: a subordinate occupation pursued in addition to one's vocation especially, for enjoyment

Even while back in AA and trying to work their so called "program" I would love to bring this point up to the hard headed true believers. If AA was the altruistic movement it claimed to be why did they feel the need to make the book unusually big with the thickest, cheapest paper they could find and extra large margins so they could sell it for what today would be $55.

Obviously they choose the cheap red binding material to make the most profit and not to make the book any cheaper to help "save" all these people dying from alcoholism. Most would answer in a low mumble that the book was made to spread the message and help save alcoholics and then disregard the point I was making.

How many defeated drinkers in 1939 had the money to buy this book? How many sponsors today would buy their new "sponsee" a Big Book like they do now if they had to pay $55 instead of the $8 they get it for now?

Even the book itself was printed with deceptive motives.

A little info on Hank Parkhurst

"The problem of Hank's stock was solved when one day he showed up "completely broke and very shaky," according to Bill. "He pointed out that most of the office furniture still belonged to him, particularly the huge desk and the overstuffed chair." The furniture had been paid for at least once before, but Bill agreed to pay him again if he would turn over his stock. He accepted two hundred dollars for the furniture and turned in the stock.

But Hank resented Bill's persuading him to turn over the stock, and to make matters worse, soon Bill was granted a royalty on the book, similar to one that had already been voted for Dr. Bob. Hank's son said that Hank always felt he had been treated badly and that Bill had made a deal with the foundation that excluded Hank from any future share in the book's profits. The entire issue was clouded by the fact that Hank's drinking had put a wall between him and many members who eventually supported royalty payments for Bill.

Hank wrote a memo to Bill in late 1939, which is quoted in full in "Pass It On." It asked questions that echo still today, questions about the separation of a moneymaking business and work for the love of it, about individualism and the cult of personality that was already beginning to gather around Bill and Dr. Bob."

== Taken from

Aint it nice how Bill got Hank to turn over his stock in the Big Book?

Hello Professor G.,

Thanks for information. You make a bunch of good points there.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Rather than argue with, and possibly embarrass Bill Wilson,
**     my father chose not to expose Bill for his devious ways for the good
**     of the Fellowship."
**     A notarized statement from Doctor Bob's daughter, Sue Smith Windows

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Callme_Shane ]

Date: Sat, August 6, 2011 7:22 am     (answered 7 August 2011)
From: "Callme Shane"
Subject: You might enjoy this

Father Ted was an English series about 3 cathaholic priests stuck on a tiny island called Craggy Rock in the British Isles.

Father Jack was the mad alcoholic priest.....

Father Jack goes to AA


Hi again, Shane,

Thanks for the link. Yes, another A.A. spoof.

(Is it just me, or do there seem to be a lot of them lately?)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   "The best cure for drunkenness is whilst sober,
**   to observe a drunken person"
**     ==  Chinese Proverb

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#shefikhasbun ]

Date: Sat, August 6, 2011 9:22 am     (answered 7 August 2011)
From: shefikhasbun
Subject: AA

I would like to congratulate you for your sublime writing. Thank you keep it up. Did you relapse?


Hello Shefikhasbun,

Thank you for the compliment. And I'm happy to say that I didn't relapse. I have 10 years of total sobriety now, free of alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Wisdom tells me I am nothing.
**    Love tells me I am everything.
**    Between the two my life flows."
**      ==  Nisargadatta Maharaj

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

man with snake at Saturday Market
Man with snake at Saturday Market

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[The previous letter from UNNAMED is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#UNNAMED2 ]

Date: Thu, August 4, 2011 5:25 am     (answered 8 August 2011)
Subject: Re: When you quit successfully — a question


Your description of the brutal childhood you had is moving. I believe and that what it is and cannot be proven ... that alcohol dependence is primarily a learned behavior. As a small child you wanted the acceptance and respect of your father and as a child you were not able to discern that his opinion of you was a worthless as he was not a good role model. You learned unconsciously that male adults get drunk when they are happy or upset. Then you had the misfortune ... of growing up in a culture where between the ages of say 15-25 it is acceptable to get drunk out of your mind with friends. With that pain you were lugging and in a culture that promotes emotional autonomy not interdependence in which someone would have gone out of their way at any point on this road to coach, encourage, and care for you ... yes it was inevitable. That is how I explain why until very recently female alcoholics were as rare as albinos in the country I grew up. Even when the father was abusive and a drunk ... the mother was not. The immediate consequences of getting drunk for a woman were so frightening that they always moderated their drinking. Although they had limited opportunities in terms of changing their life circumstances they always had the comfort found in female solidarity and friendship. They were never a number or a statistic. Anthropology is a science that looks at themes regarding human behavior as it works in many cultures. The US should include more of it in the study of this condition. It would help to moderate this raging controversy that makes one area too much focus. I now have returned to the country that is very similar to the one of my childhood and *I do go out of my way to make time for the kids next door whose father is an alcoholic. Your letter inspires me to keep doing it. *


Hello again, UNNAMED,

Thank you for spending time with the kids next door.

About learned alcoholism: That really is the heart of the debate, you know. Nature or Nurture. Genetics or learned behavior. When a child has an alcoholic parent, he could either inherit genes for alcoholism, or learn it from the alcoholic parent, or both. Personally, I think it's both.

And it isn't just a matter of learning that drinking is okay because Dad did it. There is also the whole problem that having an alcoholic parent dumps the children into an environment that is very warped and different. The children learn a lot of values and attitudes that come from living with an alcoholic parent. Like the idea that you can't win. Like the idea that you can't trust anyone. Like the idea that it's okay to kill your pain. Then the constant stress causes the children's Cerebellar Vermises to grow malformed, which makes them feel weird and out of sorts for life.

Then, if there are several genes that modulate the risk for alcohol addiction, and that unhappy child has inherited some of them, then you really have trouble.

It really is a complex puzzle. We need a lot more research. Unfortunately — or really, fortunately — it isn't possible to do randomized longitudinal controlled studies on children, to see what makes them turn alcoholic.

Have a good day now.


*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
**      Genius hits a target no one else can see.
**        ==  Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 — 1860)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Kevin_D ]

Date: Sun, August 7, 2011 5:05 am     (answered 8 August 2011)
From: "Kevin D."

what people chose to believe is as personal and God given as is their life. just like so many of lifes critics, people can find whats wrong with something rather than looking for the good.

AA saved my life when all else failed....that is a fact....I have worked with many others that could not stop drinking and don't drink today...that is a fact. my ignorance is always an asset

looking at whats wrong with others. AA has shown me a new way of seeing others and life its self ,LOOK FOR THE GOOD

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the letter. Congratulations on your sobriety. Nobody else and nothing else did that for you.

I'm sure that you believe that A.A. saved your life. A.A. is good at making people believe that A.A did something good for them, much better at that than at actually making people quit drinking.

You believe that A.A. saved your life. What you are ignoring is the fact that 19 other people around you didn't benefit from the A.A. routine. A few people quit drinking by using their own will power and determination, and then A.A. steals the credit for their hard work. A.A. takes none of the blame for those people who don't quit drinking, or who repeatedly relapse while working the Steps.

When you say, "Look at the good", what that means is, "Don't look at the big picture. Don't see the whole thing, the good and the bad. Especially, don't notice what is wrong with A.A."

We have to look at both the good and the bad of A.A., especially when A.A. kills more people than it saves.

You said,

"what people chose to believe is as personal and God given as is their life."

Actually, beliefs are given by men, not God. Beliefs are taught. Churches teach beliefs, and cults routinely routinely teach lots of goofy beliefs. Unfortunately, many of those beliefs are very harmful, in addition to being untrue.

For instance, if a cult were to tell people that they should not to go to a doctor and get medical treatment, and should not take their children to a doctor, rather just trust the cult's religious practices and prayers to heal them, then I would have to denounce that belief as one very bad belief.

In fact, I've done so, many times. Here in Portland Oregon, we have a church that claims to be Christian that routinely kills another child every couple of years by not taking the child to a doctor when he or she is sick. Two parents were just convicted of manslaughter, and the trial of another pair is coming up.

Alcoholics Anonymous does the same thing too when a sponsor tells his sponsee not to take the medications that the doctor prescribed, and just trust the 12 Steps to heal him. That is a very bad belief, and not from God.

It does not matter how fervently people believe in their beliefs, that does not keep the victims of such superstition alive.

Finally, this line is great evidence for what is wrong with A.A.: obstinate anti-intellectualism and refusal to learn the truth:

"my ignorance is always an asset"

Being ignorant of the truth is not an asset.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human
**     stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and
**     justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism
**     and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or
**     political idols.
**        ==  Aldous Huxley

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Vicki_W ]

Date: Mon, July 25, 2011 9:24 am
From: "vicki w."
Subject: i delt in the occult while going to aa.

i delt in the occut while going to aa. now i have stange things happening to me. not being funny at all. i believe everything u have written. wish i knew it then. when i would ask my sponser a question she would tell me to do the first three steps over first.

sorry about the spelling. as i said, she would have me do the first three steps over. i did this for seven years. now i have a force? spirit? trying to control my life. its like its trying to make my life miserable so i will have to go back to aa. cant do that. i think i have been ostracized from aa. last time i went, a women came up to me and said what are u doing here. didnt know the person. some stare at me. i have been yelled at in aa. told i should be ashamed of my self. some people didn't think i was an alcoholic. i told a friend in aa when someone asked a question about me to tell them i was writing a book. then i went to my cousins in wilmington for six months. when i came back, all this crazy stuff started. went to one aa meeting and they told me they heard i was dead. i think they would have liked. after that downhill. eventually stopped going. whats wierd about aa is that when i attended the first meeting i could recognize what you are talking about, but then i did get brainwashed. u know the saying something like your brain needs a good washing. anyway this force has missed up my life. have you seen any evidence of hypnosis? please reply. sincerly. now spell check wont work.

Date: Sat, August 6, 2011 8:19 pm     (answered 8 August 2011)
From: "vicki w."
Subject: aa

i asked u about covert hypnosis. it happens in aa. i graduated high school in 1970. i didnt literally burn my bra. but i heard the message. i am a independent thinker. u know better than i how independent thinking will get u in trouble.

when i would talk about myself in aa. i would be put down by the older men in aa. the old timer of the group didnt like what i would say. he would tell my sponser to put a rein one me. well it is horse country here.

or then the next person to share would talk about a generational thing. it was all about put down. this is about the hypnosis.

the psychiatrist that i saw in the hospital was an aa member. saw him in aa meetings . in fact i was in a meeting after being absent from that meeting for a while and a man starting saying shame on u,,, and he was very angry. and this dr. told the person to be quiet. do u know i have seen this person at a lot of meetings and he or his wife never acted angry with me . just one one more strange incident.

i will never god bless anyone else or tell them to have a good day. aa propaganda. i am just about to get mad about what happened to me. i was a nurse who worked at a health department when this happened . not alot of experience. i was thrown into a different world. aa takes advadvantage of a person. but i did get what your last person said about aa being nosey, they are. gut instinct

Hello Vicki,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your pain and suffering. There is a lot of it going around, isn't there?

Technically, the way that they were messing with your mind is not called hypnosis, it is something else. You might call it brainwashing. A lot of what A.A. does qualifies as brainwashing. (Look here.)

Of course they were trying to suck you into the cult and turn you into a well-indoctrinated person who just parroted all of the right slogans, just like them. And who attended meetings regularly, and conformed to the group, just like them. And who said just what they wanted to hear.

So that guy got angry with you when you weren't going along with it.

So it goes. Welcome to freedom.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Force, violence, pressure, or compulsion with a view
**     to conformity, are both uncivilized and undemocratic.
**       ==  Mohandas Gandhi

[The next letter from Vicki_W is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html#Tom_H ]

Date: Tue, August 9, 2011 11:32 am     (answered 9 August 2011)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: There has GOT to be EASIER Way to Donate

Hey Terry,

There has GOT to be a easier way to send you few bucks than paypal. I even opened up an account so as to be able to donate ( and have in the past) and today I cant figure the damn thing out. I understand your need for anonomy and all of that.


PS I am about two weeks off cigs (13 years off alcohol) and its a BITCH. I think nic is tougher than booze in many ways cause smoking has never gotten me in jail or caused me to lose my mind. Take care.

more per month in service fees than the total donations that I receive. So they are out of the question.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

P.S.: Congratulations on the cigarettes. I also found quitting smoking to be much harder than quitting alcohol. Nicotine is one very strange drug.

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
**     It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
**     == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

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Last updated 8 March 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters254.html