Letters, We Get Mail, CCXLII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Megan ]

Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 1:26 pm     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Megan sent you a message on Facebook...

Subject: Hello and a few questions for you :)

Hey There, Orange.

I have a few questions for you, if you've got a second. First, would you say you were more liberal or libertarian? I know, it says you're indie on your FB information. Also, are you a supporter of Jack Tripley? I think some of Jack's ideas are interesting and superior to the AA ideology; however, I mostly think he is overly consevative, pedantic, and maybe even slightly crazy. In this same line, I would like to know your thoughts on Stanton Peele; I think he is OK, particulaly in comparison with Jack. And he's got a great voice to listen to.

I am also wondering if you are a reader of fiction (I think you probably tend to read current nonfiction, right?) and if so, who are your favorite authors.

Much thanks and have a super day,

Hello Megan,

That's a bunch of interesting questions. Well, starting at the top:

  1. Definitely more liberal than libertarian. I don't think much of the libertarian philosophy. I think it's a sham. As one political pundit declared, Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke pot.

    I once read a "libertarian" novel. I wish I could remember the name of it. But the gist of it was that this young man who was just setting out in the world got a money-belt from his father, filled with gold coins, and for the rest of the novel, he bought what he needed. If he needed some security or mercenary fighters to help him in a fight, he hired them. He bought all of the tools and equipment that he needed for his adventures and exploits. He never partook of social services, because there weren't any in his world. From the beginning to the end of the novel, he simply paid his way and bought what he wanted. And eventually, he triumphed over the bad guys and got the girl and all of that.

    The problem with that story is obvious. If Daddy Warbucks hadn't given the kid the gold coins, he wouldn't have accomplished anything. That was not a story of the independent self-reliant man taking care of himself in a tough world, it was the story of a kid in a shopping mall with Daddy's credit cards.

    The entire Libertarian philosophy has the same problem. So do Ayn Rand's delusions. There is no such thing as a self-made man. I'm sure that his Mama has strong opinions on the subject of who made him.

  2. Jack Trimpey seems okay. I totally agree with the idea of "The Beast", the addictive voice urging us to just indulge a little. I stumbled across the same thing, and called it The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster.

    I disagree with Trimpey's harsh denunciations of addicts and alcoholics. He calls them immoral. I don't. The way I see it, we are all just trying to make it through the night. At least half of all addicts and alcoholics are suffering from underlying conditions like mental illness, child abuse issues, rape issues, and the like, and they are just trying to kill the pain and get straight. That isn't immoral.

  3. I love Stanton Peele. I think he's right on. I just don't have any criticism of him.

  4. Reading fiction. Wow. It's been a while. I really have to strain my brain to remember the last fiction that I read. Now I'm not against fiction. When I was in high school I was a big Hemingway and Steinbeck fan. It's just that I almost exclusively read factual stuff now. I just don't get around to reading fiction much any more.

    The last fiction that I can remember reading is William Gibson — things like "Neuromancer", "Burning Chrome", "Johnny Mnemonic", and "The Difference Engine". That last one is a real hoot. What if Charles Babbage had finished his gearwheel computer in the Victorian era, and Great Britain had become the computing powerhouse of the world? It almost happened. It's a very realistic plot. The only reason that it didn't happen is because Babbage's family was angry about the large amounts of money (the whole family fortune) that he was spending on his computer, so they had him declared insane and stopped the project.

    But if things had been a little different, things would be very different.

    By the way, the society of "friends of Babbage" finished his Difference Engine in 1991, and it worked perfectly. Charles Babbage knew what he was doing. And his girlfriend, Lady Ada, was the world's first computer programmer, too. She was writing programs for the thing before it was even finished.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A group of baboons is called a congress.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#John_McC ]

Date: Sun, June 5, 2011 3:00 pm     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: "John McC"
Subject: Fw: Steppers don't even buy the disease b.s.

Hey Orange,

How can this nice piece of insight get "linked" to the OP Forums?? (Sorry I do not possess the computer know-how to "link" it to a different location (e.g. "OP Forums").

From: horsejeff
To: John McC
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:42 PM

Subject: Re: Getting Insurance Giants

I'm chill on Bob and I know the whole AA song & dance. I just want to end the dangerous stranglehold...

On Jun 4, 2011 8:29 PM, "John McC" wrote:

Well, then the way to do that would be to start with a "relapse", and here is why:

1.) If you "lapse", it is obvious that the "treatment" (12-Steppism) DID NOT WORK, so why would the HMO continue to pay for what clearly DID NOT WORK, or does the HMO like to pay for treatments that clearly FAIL?

2.) If there is a "medical basis" (e.g. a "disease") for this "addiction" you have, what makes this "disease" (called "addiction") a "disease"? HOW has your HMO been convinced that addiction to ANY chemical substance is a "disease" when there is ZERO, OBJECTIVE MEDICAL EVIDENCE OF THAT (I don't think a VOTE by an AMA convention in the 1960's qualifies!).

3.) Find out HOW MANY TIMES you can "relapse" with this "disease" you allegedly have (that your HMO must think exists, because they ARE paying for it, right?), and ask if the same "limit" applies to say, cancer, diabetes, high-blood pressure, etc. I bet anything that you have a LIMIT for the number of times you can be in "in-patient" treatment for drug/alcohol "treatment"!

These are the questions/issues that HMO's need to have thrust in front of them! Once they see the BULLSHIT that 12-Step treatment is, they WILL STOP PAYING FOR IT, and once the lawsuits come out (from treatment centers, etc., and others that are dependant on an HMO tit", the answers to questions 1 and 2 can be answered/addressed in said lawsuits! ;)

From: horsejeff
To: John McC
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:54 PM
Subject: Steppers don't even buy the disease b.s.

And who LEAST believes in the disase bullshit? STEPPERS THEMSELVES! Get this, just from popular culture:

You can't watch a single sporting event or entertainment awards show anymore without seeing participants wearing some colored wristband, ribbon, or something in the "Fight Against Cancer/diabetes/autism/terrorism/whatever the fuck you want." But where's the Battle Against Addiction... as in a CURE?

AA estimates its U.S. membership at around 1 millon persons. If each member gave an avg of $5 each to a research fund at Johns Hopkins or Mayo or UCLA they could go a long way to at least beginning to CURE this "physical illness."

If I had an ailment killing me and I had network of fellow sufferers gathering in church basements and Alano Clubs 7 nights per week I would be damn sure organizing a fundraising drive to CURE this PHYSICAL, DEADLY, HOPELESS condition. But the absence of any such effort on the part of steppers proves that they themselves don't really believe the disease nonsense.

Hi John,

Yes, you and Jeff make a bunch of good points there. The one that really stands out to me is the fact that health insurance policies put a limit on treatment of drug and alcohol problems. The last health insurance policy that I had would send somebody to alcoholism treatment just one time, ever. But there were no such limits on the treatment of cancer or heart attacks or AIDS or diabetes or car accidents or anything else...

That is highly revealing. If alcoholism was really a disease, would that even be legal?

I'll copy this letter to the forum, here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of alcoholism, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Jennifer ]

Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 2:46 am     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: Jennifer
Subject: Re: abuse in aa

Thanks Orange. I wanted to tell you thank you so much for everything you are doing.

And to Tom H. could you give example of how Orange is one angry dude? I see him as being passionate about exposing aa as well as other issues. I love his writing and my question to you is, what are you doing to help make more people aware of the atrocities that are happening within aa? You thinking Terry is angry is comical. You don't just seem angry but filled with animosity towards the guy. And just bitter in general. Let me guess though your a right-winger huh?

Sorry Terry I know you wanted this on the forum, you don't need to reply back. Just wanted to get my two cents in. Btw I have been reading your site for years now and have come to have so much admiration for you. Take care.


Okay, Jennifer,

Thanks for the compliments, and have a good day now.

Oh, and I'll get it to the forum for you, here:

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings.
**     Reject the insidious pressure in society that would blunt your
**     critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that
**     would caution silence in the face of injustice lest you
**     jeopardize your chances of promotion and self-advancement.
**     This is how it starts, and before you know where you are,
**     you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack.
**     The price is too high.
**       ==  Jimmy Reid

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Gordon ]

Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 4:23 am     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: "Gordon B."
Subject: AA "success" rate

Hello again Terrance, greetings. The following quote is from your reply to my letter in 'Letters 232'. "I don't understand what you mean by this statement:

The spontaneous remission rate for alcoholics is 5%; the 'success' rate for AA is 5%, no better than doing nothing at all. This is only true */if the spontaneous remission people disappear/* and that is our problem, /*they are still around*/."

Yes, it is poorly worded by me, to clarify:-

People quit booze on their own without any outside help (spontaneous remission) at a rate of 5%.

Along comes AA with a 'success' rate of 5%. If this is in addition to spontaneous remission then the 'quit booze' rate nearly doubles to near 10% and AA is successful. (5% + AA's 5% of the other 95%)

However, if the spontaneous remission rate falls to 0%, i.e. AA simply mops up those who were about to quit on their own anyway, then AA is useless. This is what I was trying to say, "This (AA is useless) is only true if the spontaneous remissiom people disappear (into AA) and that is our problem, they are still around (the spontaneous remission rate has not fallen to 0%, loads of people still quit on their own outside AA)".

There you are, clear as mud!

Best Regards and keep up the good work. Gordon.

Hi again, Gordon,

I see what the problem is. You are thinking of the spontaneous remission rate as a variable (that might change in response to A.A.). Think of the spontaneous remission rate as a constant, something that is just there no matter what. The spontaneous remission rate will be the same no matter whether alcoholics get no help or treatment at all, or go to the local Tiddly-Winks Society, or to the Ladies' Home Garden Club, or to A.A.

When A.A. produces a zero-percent improvement in the sobriety rate of alcoholics, it will appear to have a 5% success rate. But the A.A. program is not due the credit for those recoveries. That's just the normal rate of spontaneous remission. Those are the people who would have quit drinking anyway.

And the A.A. success rate doesn't rise to 10%, because A.A. has no success rate of its own to add to the normal rate of spontaneous remission. The observed success rate just stays flat at 5%.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The NIAAA's 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol
**     and Related Conditions interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the
**     criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
**     "About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence
**     do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol
**     (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol
**     dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Daniel ]

Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 2:59 pm     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: "Daniel B." (of the U.K.)
Subject: just wanted to say...

...I don't know what the meetings are like where you live? But where I am from people in AA will go out of their way to help you, and expect nothing from you in return.

How can that possibly ever be a bad thing?

Sure, AA is not perfect. It's ran by a bunch of ex-drunks!... We're all just muddling through doing the best we can... So if you were expecting something perfect when you arrived, sadly you were always destined for disappointment...

I've read a little of your stuff and I have to say I do not believe you for one second when you state that your motives for creating this site are out of some genuine care to expose the 'evils' of AA and protect the general public...

Personally, I think you just got burned by a fellow drunk... Probably a chick.

Well, guess what? You're not the first and won't be the last.

Danny (UK)

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for the letter. That's a bunch of good examples of propaganda techniques, including

The Statistics of Small Numbers means that you only observe a small number of cases and then generalize a big picture, as in,

"They say that one out of every five people on Earth is Chinese. That can't be true. I know hundreds and hundreds of people, and only three of them are Chinese. So Chinese people must be pretty rare, really..."

Defenders of A.A. use similar bad logic: "I've been to 20 different A.A. meetings, and never saw a girl get taken advantage of."

But A.A. likes to brag that there are many hundreds of A.A. meetings in every city — hundreds of thousands of meetings in the world. Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean that it didn't happen someplace else.

In addition, failure to see something does not prove that it does not exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

By the way, I get reports of bad things happening in A.A. in the U.K. too.

The Glittering Generality is trying to paint A.A. as a wonderful faultless organization:

...where I am from people in AA will go out of their way to help you, and expect nothing from you in return.
How can that possibly ever be a bad thing?

If that were an accurate picture of Alcoholics Anonymous, then it would not be a bad thing. But there is much more to A.A.: the 13th-Stepping and sexual exploitation of girls and women, the insane cult religion nutcases telling sick people not to take their medications and just trust God and the 12 Steps to heal them, and the mental cases acting as sponsors and trying to tell other people how to live, just for starters. Then there is the whole delusional idea that Frank Buchman's crazy fascist cult religion is a cure for alcoholism. Read the list of A.A. horror stories for lots more examples: A.A. horror stories here.

The Minimization and Denial is obvious. "Sure, A.A. is not perfect..." Even when hundreds of people write in, reporting their bad experiences and problems with A.A., you just minimize and deny the evidence. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

The Spurious Delegitimization is trying to claim that a girl is to blame for all of my criticism of A.A.

Actually, the person who really yanked my chain was a dogmatic 12-Step-oriented "counselor" who turned out to be an Internet child pornographer and coke-head child rapist. You can read about him here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The instinctive need to be the member of a closely knit group
**    fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes
**    inessential what these ideals are.
**       ==  Konrad Lorenz

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Kate ]

Date: Mon, June 6, 2011 8:33 pm     (answered 8 June 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Kate W. sent you a message on Facebook...

Hi orange!

I'm wondering if you have any advice on the matter of revenge. A friend and i have been unable to move beyond a desire for sweet revenge on AA. We refuse to accept that the best revenge is living well, because what good is it if they don't know, or dismiss you as 'just a hard drinker'?

We both want to cause AA some pain. But AA is so slippery! Ho do you harm an organisation that is just a composite of individuals? Smugness seems a good weapon, but once again, who's going to know about it if you don't go to meetings? We really admire your efforts to hurt the ideas of AA. Do you have any ideas? Has anyone else asked you this before?


Hi Kate,

Thanks for the question. Oh, that is a tough one. One of the toughest of all.

Coincidentally, just last night there was a human interest story on the evening news. About fifteen years ago, a woman's teenage son was shot and killed by another teenager in a stupid juvenile squabble. And it was her only son.

The killer was sentenced to 15 years in prison.

Remarkably, the mother ended up visiting the killer in prison, and befriending him. She said that at first she did it because she was a Christian, and if there was a chance to reach the young man, and help him to be a better person, she had to do it. Later, she did it because she got to know the guy and actually like him. When he got out of prison, she even got him housing next door to her.

Here is the punch line: When asked about the forgiveness, the woman said that she didn't do it for the young man, she did it for herself. She said that anger and hatred are like a cancer that will eat you from the inside out. She just had to let go of the anger to be able to live.

That is the big important point: She did it for herself, not for the other guy.

I also have my own list of people I'd like to get revenge on, but I have to let it go. If I keep that list, and dwell on it, I will just end up an angry bitter old man. The world has enough of them already, thank you anyway.

Now that does not mean that you do nothing. You can use your feelings and your energy to expose A.A. for what it is. You can write and speak and post, and read and learn more.

But please remember that the individual people who make up A.A. are just sick, deluded people who imagine that practicing an old pro-fascist cult religion will accomplish great things. They are of course insane.

Then, I know that there are genuinely evil people in A.A. too: the monsters who delight in sexually exploiting the girls, and the tyrants who enjoy lording it over the newcomers and sponsees, and the fools who don't care who else they hurt in pursuit of their own ego gratification. They are harder to forgive. But still, you have to let it go, or else the anger will just eat your guts out.

So you can start by writing to your Congressman (or Congresswoman) and two Senators, telling them about the hoax that the 12-Step treatment industry is foisting on America while consuming precious taxpayer dollars. Writing on paper is much better than emailing, and has more effect, and your letter stays around longer.

Then you can just keep on speaking the truth. The truth is the mortal enemy of the Big Lie, and that is what A.A. is, a big lie. If enough people knew the truth, A.A. would collapse and vanish like all of those strange old cult religions from the eighteen hundreds that we never even hear of any more.

Heck, for that matter, have you even heard of any Rajneeshies lately? Or followers of Rev. Jim Jones's People's Temple? Seen any Hari Krishnas? Heaven's Gate? Synanon? As the truth gets out, those things just whither and die.

And don't worry about whether the people in those A.A. meetings know what you are doing. They will, eventually, as their membership walks away and the group shrinks. And they will, when they find that newcomers are better informed, and ask too many discerning questions.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The secret of health for both mind and body is
**    not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future,
**    but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
**     ==  Buddha

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued:

Canada Goose gosling
Small Orphan and Big Brother
The orphan is the small one on the left. A larger step-brother is on the right.

Canada Goose gosling

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Christopher ]

Date: Tue, June 7, 2011 9:57 pm     (answered 9 June 2011)
From: "Christopher"
Subject: Clearly a waste of time

Good stuff, but a waste of time. The programs do work even if one person has been saved. Please find something more constructive to spend your time. Your attempt to undermine the fellowships is equivalent to Scientology attempting to undermine the Catholic religion. Reality is it will never happen.

Best Regards, Christopher

Hello Christopher,

Thanks for the letter. The lame rationalization that A.A. is okay "even if one person has been saved" is without merit. The truth is, A.A. kills more people with misinformation and quack medicine than it ever saves. Even a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., proved that. Look here.

Telling the truth about the the 12-Step cult religion fraud that is called "the recovery industry" is not like Scientology. Scientology is a hoax very much like Alcoholics Anonymous. Both are cult religions that were founded by a raving lunatic. Both have their holy scriptures that are just plain wrong. Both sell a fairy tale as a cure for deadly addiction problems. The only difference between two is that A.A. wants your mind, your life and your soul, while Scientology wants your mind, your life, your soul, and your money.

Scientology calls their "addiction cure" racket "Narconon".

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Alcoholics Anonymous and Scientology could get together and
**    do a joint venture: They can declare that alcoholism is
**    caused by interplanetary cooties — that is, by the
**    ghosts of unhappy aliens who were dumped into a volcano here
**    60 million years ago, and who are now flying around and biting
**    people and making them drink alcohol. And the cure is to give
**    all of your money to an Alcocon Treatment Center®, which
**    will perform a 12-Step exorcism and tin-can confession session
**    to help you to get rid of those bothersome ghosts, but only
**    if you really try and thoroughly follow our path.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Daniel_S ]

From: "Facebook"
Subject: Daniel S. sent you a message on Facebook...
Date: Wed, June 8, 2011 6:57 am

Subject: valliant's statistics


I was reading your website as I often do, and I saw this info re: Vaillant- https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters206.html#Vaillant

Where the hell does AA get this info that it publishes in their literature? Do you have any idea? Thanks for your work man. Peace.

Grapevine: You said about 40 percent of the people who remain abstinent do it through AA. What about the other 60 percent? Could we in AA be more open, more supportive of these?

George Vaillant: Yes. You know, if you're batting 400, it's all right to miss a few. I think the fact that AA knows the answer to an extremely complicated problem is probably all right.

But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with[out?] the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call "substitute dependency" doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses.

And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's "little" sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough.

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for the question. That's a great question.

Where do they get their numbers? Well, they just make them up. Even George Vaillant was giving out false information there. Perhaps you thought that he was being generous and honest by admitting that 60% of the sober people did it without A.A.? Nope. He wasn't telling the truth either.

Here is the truth:

The NIAAA's 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
      "About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

So the NIAAA says that 75% quit drinking alone, on their own. The most that A.A. could possibly have is 25%, not 40%. But A.A. doesn't get that remaining 25%. Not even close. That 25% includes everybody else who ever got any kind of help or "treatment".

That 25% includes people who went to the Catholic Church and participated in the Calix or St. Vincent DePaul programs. Or did a fundamentalist Protestant program like Saddleback. Or went to the Salvation Army program. Or did the Veterans' Administration program. Or went to SMART, SOS, WFS, Rational Recovery, or the like. Or got "treatment" from a "treatment center".

I fall into that last category, theoretically. I allegedly went through a treatment program. The State of Oregon Health Plan (OHP) paid $1700 for my "treatment". But all that it amounted to was three "group therapy" sessions per week, conducted by a cocaine-snorting Internet-pornographer child-molester who yammered a lot of A.A. slogans and insisted that we must have a "higher power" in our "recovery program". And then they stuck acupuncture needles in us and said that it reduced our cravings. And then he told us to go to at least three A.A. or N.A. meetings per week. Oh, and they made us piss in a cup to see if we were taking drugs. That's it. That's "the cure".

I got myself sober two weeks before that "program" started, so I give it zero credit for my recovery. "Treatment" was just one more painful experience that I had to endure.

So the truth is, the number of people that A.A. can really claim to have cured is miniscule. Other great quotes from Dr. Vaillant declare that A.A. produced a zero-percent improvement in the recovery of alcoholics, while producing the highest death rate of any method for treating alcoholism. Look here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism,
**    but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling."
**      ==  Dr. George E. Vaillant, formerly a member of the A.A. Board of
**    Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics
**    Anonymous, in "The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns,
**    and Paths to Recovery", Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA,
**    1983, pages 283-286.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Gayle ]

Date: Thu, June 9, 2011 3:45 pm     (answered 11 June 2011)
From: "gayle l."
Subject: How to find you on Facebook?

Hi :-)

I survived 23 yeeeeaaarrrssss in AA (with big, long periods of non-attendance) and I am finally, thoroughly, finished.

I am truly impressed by your work. Are you on Facebook?

Thanks for getting the truth out there.

Gayle L.

Hi Gayle,

Thanks for the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are free now.

I am "Orange Papers" on Facebook:

But you can also use the new forum:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Kayla ]

Date: 2011-06-10
From: Kayla E.
Subject: Facebook posting

Orange Papers just thanked me for a shout out i sent his way and I can't express in words how much that means to me. He is my hero. His website was exactly what I needed to stumble across in order to remove myself from the offensively addictive cult we call Alcoholics Anonymous. Although the doubts were already there, I pushed them to the side and told myself "not up for discussion."

This was because I was told there was no other alternative and I would die if I didn't do it their way. He vocalized so many truths on the horrific epidemic that I was scared to even discuss in my own mind. It's kind of similar to walking in religion on blind faith because of fear or guilt trips. Is that really "happy, joyous, and free?" Use your higher power given brains and open your eyes. A Narcissistic addict just tricked the world into following a program that is not working. Can we say ILLUMINATI? Just another example of "New World Order." Wake up people. You are being Duped. The signs are obvious. It sounds nice. Lives do get saved, while immediately becoming enslaved. You are told that if you leave the group, you will die a terrible death. Your only option is AA. Wait a second...what about the contradictive statement i heard repetitively, that stuck in my head the most: "Take what you need, and leave the rest." Cool, thanks for the kind words and beautiful souls. I don't stick around one spot too long. I learned mad shit. I played mad games. I walked away the same way I walked in, slick and quiet as fuck. Nobody had a clue, including myself. Maybe if I was treated with more respect then I would have reconsidered my permanent exit. However, I wasn't, so therefore, I do not feel the need to be abused by a bunch of boys with the mentality of toddlers and a bunch of women with the jealously of high school girls. I hope you can understand. Have a nice day and remember that it aint my fault bitch.

Orange Papers:
I'm glad to hear that you are free now. So really have a good day, and a good weekend too.

== Orange Papers

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#DougM ]

Date: Thu, June 9, 2011 8:44 pm     (answered 11 June 2011)
From: "DougM"
Subject: Incredible information. Thank you!

Dear Mr. Orange,

I have been reading through your incredibly thorough site for the better part of a month now. It has helped me immensely in my deprogramming process from the pseudo religious cult of 12 steppism. Thank you for the enormous effort that must have went into creating the Orange Papers. They are a huge help!

I voluntarily attended AA meetings for about 2 1/2 years, then my attendance started to drop off drastically. I never could quite identify with the fellowship and I always felt like I was on the periphery of the program. If you weren't a regular, good little Wilsonite, you were never fully "one of them." All I ever heard besides praising the program and drunkalouges, were slogans. They have stupid little clichés for everything! Whenever I asked for clarity, or explanations, there was a ready-made slogan for a response. The way they sucker you into the whole thing is just purely deceptive.

So much of my experience with AA seemed surreal. It is so contradictory. They stress to a newcomer to keep an open mind, yet the entire doctrine is closed minded, and so were most of the people I encountered at meetings. No original thought permitted! Buchman and Wilson's fake, outdated, twisted ideology removes individuality, shuns free thinking, destroys the will, closes the mind and crushes the spirit. It breaks down the detoxing, stressed and often desperate newcomer and rebuilds them in the image of the program (cult).

I especially loved the historical research you have presented. I feel that it is very important to understand the roots of an organization such as AA, to gain a clear understanding of that which it was founded upon. Hmm, a psycho, a Hitler supporter and a proctologist put this thing together? That's a religion for me!

Speaking of Dr. Bob: that guy was surrounded by assholes, both literally and figuratively!

The fact that AA has scammed its way into the health field and the justice system, and generates billions in league with the recovery industry, all by proselytizing Wilson's alcoholic philosophy, illustrates what a scam the whole thing really is. It dawned on me; the recovery industry does not want a system that works. There is no profit in the cure.

I've been to several cult gatherings, where court-ordered, people in state rehab facilities were bussed in, and so few of the ones mandated by the courts stick around much when their sentence is up. I've seen so many come and go in my time with AA. There seems to be a core of people, who have made AA their life, and then a bunch that just come and go. The whole system is a colossal failure. And the ones that have given their lives to it, behave just like you would expect any cult member to.

My first sponsor was an arrogant, passive-aggressive, true believer who walked me through the first 4 steps and also recommended 90 in 90 which I did. It's so damned depressing going to those things every day and hearing people recycle the same old trite slogans, boring war stories and endless praise for the most perfect fellowship. His royal highness also suggested that I "hit my knees." I never did because I don't pray that way. In fact I disregarded much of his advice, and resisted anyone trying to run my life for me. But that didn't stop them from trying.

There's so much more, I could probably pump out pages and pages. I knew I didn't need AA anymore (if I ever really did) when I went through a very tragic event, and shortly thereafter was diagnosed with a serious, incurable and progressive illness (you know, like alcoholism) and didn't need to go to a meeting to "share" nor did I have the urge to drink. I was no longer attending meetings and I started to heal the moment I made the decision to end my membership permanently. For so long, something just didn't feel right. Then, for no apparent reason, I googled: "is AA a cult"" and then the dam broke open. I found the Orange Papers and I've been pouring through them ever since. They are such a tremendous help to someone who was in my position and I also realized I'm not alone. Thank you again!

Hello Doug,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments, and I'm glad to hear that your mind is alive and free. And congratulations on your sobriety too.

One line really resonated for me: "They don't want a cure because there is no profit in a cure." Yes. That is a real serious problem with our whole medical system. Medicines that merely treat, but do not cure, a disease, are much more profitable than ones that cure. When cured, the patient doesn't buy any more medicine. But if the pharmaceutical companies can get people habituated to taking an endless stream of pills that don't ever quite cure, then they have a customer for life. So what are the pharmaceutical companies pushing? Things like Viagra, Boneva, and cholestrol-lowering drugs, and blood-pressure medications, and arthritis medications, and diet pills — anything that you have to take for the rest of your life.

We are actually heading for a bad medical crisis because the germs are growing resistant to all of our antibiotics, and the pharmaceutical companies are not developing new antibiotics. There is no money in it. Not like the money from Viagra and Levitra and Cialis.

We really should have some government labs develop new antibiotics fast, but the Republicans won't tolerate "socialized medicine" where the government "goes into competition with private enterprise". The government laboratories won't actually be in competition with the pharmaceutical companies, not when those corporations refuse to make new antibiotics. But the Republicans would rather let our children die from flesh-eating bacteria than let "big government" get into medicine.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The principles of Washington's farewell address are still sources
**     of wisdom when cures for social ills are sought. The methods of
**     Washingtons's physicians, however, are no longer studied.
**         ==  Thurman Arnold

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Darren ]

Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 2:07 pm     (answered 11 June 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Darren O. sent you a message on Facebook...

A quick hello. Thank you for accepting my friend request. Your writing via the Orange Papers site has been very educational, and at the risk of being dramatic, inspiring. I was caught up in the nightmare of the 12 steps off and on for many years. I have watched AA dogma kill a friend. I can't prove it, but nevertheless she is dead. I refuse to attend meetings. I am sober and still alive. I also quit smoking a few years ago. I no longer smoke nor ingest alcohol. Abstinence is sobriety, period.

That aside for the time being. although I am a Canadian existing out here on the great prairie, I find many of our political and personal ideas mesh. We do have much in common, and as is normal we differ in some respects. I enjoy creative writing immensely, and have found a place for it in my life and day to day routine. Perhaps someday I will be published, what a great day that would be. But writing is in itself a reward. It is very therapeutic for me. I am an avid reader and enjoy your writing. How much writing do you do beyond the 'Papers'?

I have a hell of a time keeping anything I write 'short'. I will end it on this note; You are a great writer and an intelligent man. I admire your tenacity and writing skill, you have a distinct writing voice. Your voice speaks the truth and anybody with half a brain will hear it.

It has been a pleasure introducing myself. I look forward to the coming days as they may arrive.

Best Regards; Darren

Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 3:33 pm
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Darren O. posted on your Wall.

Hi Orange,

""Others can help and support you...but in the end it is ONLY you that can save yourself. You have the fantastic gift of free will, along with that gift comes ultimate responsibility. You are accountable for the good and bad choices you make. Accept the consequences for the bad, but also claim the credit and praise for the good. Have a great day my friends.""

Hello Darren,

Thanks for the compliments, and you have a good weekend too.

Oh, and I love that last paragraph. That says it all.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human
**     stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and
**     justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism
**     and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or
**     political idols.
**        ==  Aldous Huxley

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Mike ]

Date: Fri, June 10, 2011 4:26 pm     (answered 11 June 2011)
From: mikenzoie
Subject: Alcohol a disease?

Dear Orange,

I hope you are well. It has been over four months since I stopped going to AA and life is better than ever. I am the one responsible for not drinking and that is a very empowering act. yesterday I had coffee with a stepper who said: "We are worried about you and want you to come back. Some people heard that you called AA a cult." I replied: "only a cult would care if I was a member or not." Then the stepper told me stories of a meeting he attended where a newcomer made a racist comment to him which appalled me (most likely the newcomer was a court ordered attendee who was acting out of defiance). I replied that "Why did you not leave or any one defend you, or call out the newcomer for intolerant behavior?" And the stepper could only make the excuse that the newcomer came first and was a sick person. My response was that AA meetings are full of toxic people who can not possibly help you.

So far I can report that I consider my problems were behavioral, and for that there are therapies and medical treatment which work if one applies themselves. it is very important to stay away from meetings because sick people can not help sick people get better.

So I have this question: if alcoholism is a disease then how did I stop without any therapy, drug, or other medical intervention? And since I have stopped,on my own what happened to the "disease"? Real diseases don't just disappear on their own. well take care and keep up the good work.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the letter. You've got it. I don't need to tell you anything.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "The scarcest resource is not oil, metals, clean air,
**    capital, labour, or technology. It is our willingness
**    to listen to each other and learn from each other and
**    to seek the truth rather than seek to be right."
**      ==  Donella Meadows

May 22, 2009, Friday: Day 22, continued:

Canada Goose goslings
The orphan is trying to cuddle up with its larger step-brother. But the step-brother just isn't big enough to get underneath.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Matthew ]

Date: May 23 at 6:19p     (answered 11 June 2011)
From: Facebook
Subject: Matthew L. sent you a message.

I wanted to thank you for saving my life. you have no idea the torment I endured 12 years in and out of that program. I have seen the worst of the worst. It wasn't till I read your website, that I was finally free. But I never stop fighting. I always fight those who try to go to 12 step rehabs or send their families there. Not knowing what they get into.

Anyway, thank you for saving my life.

Hi. I just found your letters. Honestly, you saved your own life. But if I was able to help in some small way, then great.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters242.html#Ray ]

Date: Sat, June 11, 2011 1:07 pm     (answered 12 June 2011)
From: "Ray S."
Subject: Flock of geese shows that birds are amazing surfers, too

Hoping you're able to see videos now:

Thursday, June 9, 2011 11:40am PDT
Flock of geese shows that birds are amazing surfers, too
By: Pete Thomas, GrindTV.com
Birds of a feather not only flock together, they surf together. That was the case, anyway, involving several geese that rode downstream and collectively caught, and rode for several seconds, a standing wave in swift-water conditions at Glenwood Springs Whitewater Park on the Colorado River. The event was posted onto YouTube this past week by a user named AlSwearengen15, who apologized for his brief laughter because a few geese appear to have been temporarily swamped. "But seeing them catch the wave in unison was unexpected," the videographer explained. Also unexpected was how remarkably well most of the flock handled the wave. Take a gander:


Hello Ray,

Thanks for the link. Yes, videos are working at the moment, so I saw that. What nobody mentioned was that the geese were a family with half a dozen children. Look closely, and you will see that several of them are small. Nevertheless, they handled the river quite well.

Something that took me a while to get used to was just how drown-proof little goslings really are. You would think those cute little fluff-balls would be at the mercy of the river. Nope, they just ride it. They are water birds, and they are totally at home on the water. They've been doing it for about the last million years.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "All our geese are swans."
**    Robert Burton (1577—1640)
**    The Anatomy of Melancholy, pt. I, sec. 2, member 3, subsec. 14

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Last updated 14 August 2013.
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