Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters369.html#Sibylle ]

Date: Fri, September 27, 2013 12:41 am       (answered 29 September 2013)
From: "Sibylle B."
Subject: sponsor

Dear Orange,

I am German, I can read and understand your orange-papers perfectly, but I am not good in writing in English.

I hope you can understand my story.

I had a husband. We knew each other for 35 years, we married 1998, our son was born in 1998.

In the year 2004 my husband started to go to meetings of AA. He wanted to be an alcoholic in recovery (without having been a real Alcoholic before — he just wanted a cult that took control over his whole life). He spent a lot of time in online-meetings. He found himself a sponsor. This sponsor took control. In the following years, my husband stopped his lifelong friendships with ordinary people from our daily life. He chose new friends or the sponsor chose for him. My husband was not able to make decisions or choices about his business and family life. He always had to ask his sponsor or the other AA-people.

He ruined his business as a cabinet maker / joiner. He left me and our son. He was not able to see reality, especially his financial, economic situation. All he wanted was: to be a full-time recovering alcoholic. He called these people his friends. But you cannot find friends, when you see them only in the evenings in a meeting, where everybody is telling just stories. To be friends, you need the experience of seeing somebody in his everyday life.

In the end my husband dropped dead in his joiner's workshop — I think he knew somehow that he had completely ruined his whole life. That happened in march 2012. I waited more than one year, then I asked myself if this tragical story is finished for me. I found out that it isn't.

2010 I wrote a warning letter to that sponsor and to AA Germany. I told them about the danger. I knew my husband well enough to know about the risks. Afterwards I found the reaction letter of AA Germany: they agreed with the sponsor, that I, the wife, should attend Al-Anon-meetings, and they had not made any mistake. The sponsor misunderstood my warning letter — oh she's just a jealous wife ..

There exist a few very interesting letters and I am thinking about legal steps and talking to the newspapers. The 12steps lobby in Germany does exist, but I think it is not so powerful like it is in the USA.

Thank you for your good work!


Hello Sibylle,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your suffering. I'm adding this letter to the list of A.A. Horror Stories.

What you have described is just so classic. Taking total control of a person's decision-making is just standard cult behavior — it's in the Cult Test.

And people who voluntarily submit to such supervision are fleeing from freedom. I think either Eric Hoffer or Eric Fromm wrote a book "Flight From Freedom", about people who seek escape from freedom. I shall have to make another attempt to find it.

Their reaction to your letter is also typical. They cannot believe that they did anything wrong. It's unthinkable. They believe that their group and their teachings are always right, and you are always wrong. Yes, it's a cult.

You are right that the A.A. lobby in Germany is not as powerful as it is in the USA. And A.A. would be even less popular in Germany if more people knew the true history of A.A., like that the cult religion that became A.A. was created by a renegade Lutheran minister, Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, who thanked Heaven for giving us Adolf Hitler. And neither of the founders of A.A. in the USA — Bill Wilson, Dr. Robert Smith, or Clarence Snyder — quit A.A. in protest when Dr. Buchman went to Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies and Sieg-Heiled Adolf Hitler, and praised Hitler and Heinrich Himmler.

All that those three founders did to create Alcoholics Anonymous was rename the alcoholics' branch of Frank Buchman's cult religion to "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Clarence Snyder made up that name), and change a few words, like changing "sin" to "alcohol". Instead of Buchman's followers supposedly being defeated by sin and powerless over it, A.A. followers were supposedly "defeated by alcohol" and powerless over it.

We discussed that before in a previous letter, here: "the "benevolent" support group AA has its roots in the Nazi regime."

The story of Matthias getting sued by A.A. in Germany for producing his own German inexpensive translation of the old out-of-copyright first edition of the Big Book is also enlightening:

  1. Alcoholics Anonymous committed perjury in the courts of Mexico and Germany to collect more royalties.
  2. Mitchell K. 12: The Saddest Day In A.A. History
  3. Mitchell K. 13: German Court Date Delayed
  4. Mitchell K. 15: Open Letter to A.A. Members
  5. Mitchell K. 20: The A.A. German Court Case
  6. Mitchell K. 21: German Court Orders A.A. Books Destroyed
  7. Mitchell K. 22: Threats By Alcoholics Anonymous World Services Attempt Cutting Off a Members Right To Communicate with the Fellowship
  8. Mitchell K.'s appeal to the membership, 1998

Yes, the German A.A. is just as corrupt as the American organization.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his
**     own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for
**     his nation, his religion, his race, or his holy cause.
**     A man is likely to mind his business when it is worth
**     minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own
**     meaningless affairs by minding other people's business.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer
**     Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent
**     a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves.
**         ==  Eric Hoffer 

July 29, 2013, Monday, my front yard in Forest Grove:

A Sunflower in my front yard

A Sunflower in my front yard

July 30, 2013, Tuesday, residential Forest Grove:

My Street
My Street. My house is on the left, tucked behind the white house.

A neighbor's garden

A neighbor's garden

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#iamnotastatistic ]

Date: Sun, September 29, 2013 6:05 pm       (answered 1 October 2013)
From: "iamnotastatistic"
Subject: The Culture of Cults and new drug treatments

Hi Orange,

I know that you have covered the cult aspects of AA incredibly well on the website but I thought that this article on cults would be a good addition to an already great resource.

I see from the letters section that your are using Baclofen. I just wondered if you knew that Baclofen has been approved for the treatment of alcoholism in France and there is lots of talk on the web of it being very helpful for cocaine dependence.

Also, recently the NIAAA reported on positive reports for Ondansetron for alcohol dependence based on studies by our old friend Dr. Bankole Johnson.

I wonder how the research into Higher Powers is coming along? I've heard a rumor that they're going to have an injectable Higher Power very soon! :-)

Keep on keepin' on Orange,

Hello again, iamnotastatistic,

Thanks for all of the information.

Yes, I ran across the information about some doctors using Baclofen to treat alcohol abuse. The dosage that they are using is like 10 or 20 times as much as I'm getting. I don't know what that would feel like. The dose that I'm getting is so small that I'm not sure if it's doing anything at all. I just assume that it must be taking the edge off of muscle tremors and twitches.

Still, the idea of using a muscle relaxant to treat alcohol abuse is an interesting one.

I'll have to check out those other two links.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The future does not come from before to meet us,
**     but comes streaming up from behind over our heads.
**       ==  Rahel 

[The previous letter from Matt_J is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Matt_J ]

Date: Sun, September 29, 2013 8:28 pm       (answered 1 October 2013)
From: "Matt J."

I think all that you wrote about recognizing cults and their.... ways.... Is just a remarkable accomplishment and read.... truly and thank you. I don't think I can look at the mainstream... whomever or whatever.... the same way ever again. I like this guy, Stansberry of Daily Crux.... is, for me, out of the box thinking like you. Matt

The Fall of the American Empire Has Begun

An interview with Richard Maybury

The Daily Crux: Richard, you've long said the collapse of the American Empire would be the central issue for Americans, with regard to money, investing, and life in general.

In your recent issue of Early Warning Report, you said there's now a very high probability this collapse has already started. Can you talk about why you think that is?

Richard Maybury: Let's start with a little history: All empires eventually fall. No one in Washington will admit it, but the U.S. has been an empire for decades now, and there has never been any reason to believe our empire would be immortal.

People who are power-seekers want more power, and they'll sacrifice other things in order to get that power. One of the things power-seekers in a large government almost always sacrifice is the financial integrity of the country. They will bleed the whole economy dry just to increase their power. That's a main reason empires fall.

We see it all through history. You can look back to any of the ancient empires... They're forever wrecking their economies in order to increase their political power. So it's no brilliant prediction to say the U.S. Empire is going to fall. Anyone who has studied much history should have been able to predict this mess was going to arise... and here it is.

It's fascinating to me. I talk to all sorts of so-called ordinary people, such as dentists, barbers, and taxi drivers. Most have no understanding of what's actually happening to America, but they all know deep in their hearts something has gone terribly wrong... and it's not going to end anytime soon. This is an interesting condition that has arisen recently.

Americans, up until the last year or two, have always been optimistic. They would say things like, "Yes, hard times come along, but this, too, shall pass." They aren't saying this anymore. They're beginning to figure out that America's troubles aren't going away this time.

You can see these problems in the financial markets and elsewhere... unemployment, bankruptcies, mortgage defaults, poverty... These are all just symptoms of the fall of the empire. Let me quickly point out, however, that the fall of the empire is actually a wonderful thing. Empires are cancers, and it's a good thing to excise them as fast as possible. But the surgery necessary to do it is awfully painful.

If you look at any previous empires I write about — the French Empire, the British Empire, the Russian Empire — these countries are all much better places today than they were when they had empires. America will be too. But we've got to get from here to there... and the process is very, very painful. We're going to experience an awful lot of trouble because of it.

Crux: For many years, you've also been writing about the problems in the Middle East. In the past few months, it seems many of those problems are coming to a head. Can you explain how the troubles there — part of the area you refer to as "Chaostan" — are related to the troubles we're facing here at home?

Maybury: Sure. For those who aren't familiar, "Chaostan" is a term I coined for the area from the Arctic Ocean to the Indian Ocean, and Poland to the Pacific, along with North Africa. This area includes the Middle East.

In Central Asia, the suffix "stan" means "the land of." For example, Afghanistan is the land of the Afghans. So in 1992, I coined the term Chaostan to mean "the land of great chaos."

The reason this area is so often in chaos is a conversation of its own, but here's a quick summary.

All religions teach that there is a higher law than any government's law, and they all teach two fundamental laws: Do all you have agreed to do, which is the basis of contract law, and do not encroach on other persons or their property, which is the basis of tort law and some criminal law. Each religion expresses these laws in different ways, but they all teach them.

These principles are the basis of the old British common law. It was called common law because it grew out of principles common to all.

In a book called The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution, historian Bernard Bailyn pointed out that the American Revolution, the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence all sprang from the common law.

In the decades following the revolution, other people saw America's new liberty and prosperity. They wanted the same thing, and the American philosophy began to spread around the world. The areas where it took root became known as the "Free World."

Then in the mid-1800s, socialism began to spread, and it nearly killed off the American philosophy — a philosophy that I believe is now being rediscovered.

Chaostan is the most important area where the principles of liberty never got a chance to take root. From the beginning of history, most parts of Chaostan have been a sea of blood and destruction because they never had rational legal systems... and still don't.

The turmoil is greatly aggravated by the interference of European regimes during past centuries.

When you look at this area on a map of the world, you see all these countries are delineated by borders drawn by Europeans. Very few Americans understand this. Practically every border in the world was drawn by the European governments as they swept over the globe conquering one country after another.

European rulers would draw the borders in locations that were convenient to them. And so there are very few borders in the world that were drawn by the people who are native to those areas.

This means what we regard as a country when we look at a map usually isn't really a country at all. It's a collection of tribes cobbled together by the Europeans for the convenience of the Europeans.

In each of these so-called "countries," there are some tribes that are either dominant or want to be dominant. And the way they achieve dominance is by acquiring money, weapons, and other resources from outside powers, which were originally the Europeans.

A good example is Saudi Arabia. The Saudi tribe was one of many that lived on the Arabian Peninsula. The British government essentially created Saudi Arabia by giving money and weapons to the Saudi tribe and helping them take control of the other tribes.

This would be akin to China or some other foreign country coming to the United States and choosing single families or neighborhoods to rule over entire states. These families would have all the wealth, all the power, and would make all the rules. And just in case anyone got any ideas, the Chinese government would keep a few battleships and aircraft carriers parked near our shores.

Crux: We're huge fans of your Uncle Eric books here at The Crux, and I remember being blown away the first time I read that example. We're not taught these things in our schools... But when you look at it from that perspective, it's not surprising there's so much anger toward Western governments.

Maybury: Exactly... and this is the case all over Chaostan. None of those nations are what you and I would regard as natural countries. They were artificially created, and the rulers of those countries were propped up, in nearly every case, by the Europeans.

Keep in mind that except for five countries — Iran, Thailand, Afghanistan, most of China, and Japan — every country in the world at one time or another was conquered by the Europeans. So the political structures we see in these countries — nearly all countries — are either creations of the Europeans or outgrowths of those creations.

During and after World War II, some of these tribal leaders wanted help maintaining their power after the Europeans departed. The U.S. was the top dog at that time, so they said to Washington, "We will do your bidding — we will be your surrogate here — if you do what's necessary to keep us in power."

That's the deal that was made with dozens of regimes around the world. That's the U.S. Empire, and that's what is falling apart now. The people who have been dominated by tribes backed by Washington are sick of it, and they're starting to overturn the existing political matrix.

So the troubles in the Middle East are to a large extent part of the collapse of the empire. For instance, Hosni Mubarak in Egypt was one of Washington's closest surrogates... and he was a nasty guy. He's out of power now, and Egypt is in great turmoil. Nobody knows who's going to take over the place.

That's just one example out of many. The whole thing is beginning to crumble. Egypt was one of the early cases, and I think there are going to be a lot more.

Even nations that were not part of the U.S. Empire are being thrown into chaos, as the spirit of rebellion spreads.

As of a couple weeks ago, I think there are now 11 countries over there experiencing uprisings of one kind or another. I expect this is going to continue to spread.

It's very possible Egypt will wind up being the model for what happens in many of those countries... where you have a U.S.-backed dictator who is overthrown and then so-called Islamic fundamentalists come in and take over. That's very likely what's going to happen in Egypt.

Obviously, I don't know for sure... no one should be certain about these things. But I'm inclined to believe the Egyptian government is going to be replaced by something that will not be friendly to Washington.

Again, however, we're really on thin ice when it comes to making predictions about these sorts of things. Egypt contains many millions of people, each with his own agenda. Predicting how all that's going to go is very, very problematic.

What I can say with confidence is the political matrix Washington put in place during and after World War II is now crumbling. I think that's pretty clear. And again, I return to the point: This is ultimately a good thing. The U.S. Empire should never have existed in the first place.

Crux: Why did the U.S. get involved in Chaostan to begin with?

Maybury: I believe it really just goes back to the lust for power. That's one thing the mainstream news media is absolutely derelict about... They say practically nothing about political power.

Crux: Could you define political power for us?

Maybury: Perhaps the simplest definition is "the legalized privilege of using brute force on persons who have not harmed anyone." This privilege is what sets governments apart from all other institutions. No church, charity, fraternal organization, or any other institution can legally send people with guns to your home to force you to buy their services or obey their rules. Only the government can do that. And whether they realize it or not, it's this privilege — of using force on persons who don't deserve it — that a power-seeker wants.

Crux: Is that related to the old saying that power corrupts?

Maybury: Very astute of you to make that connection. If the American founders were here today, they'd tell us political power is poison... Stay as far from it as you can... It's evil stuff.

But the media have bought into this assumption that political power is good, it's the solution to our problems, and a world full of political power is a good place. They almost never look into the psychology of it... What causes a human being to want to force his will on other people? Because that's what political power essentially is — the ability to bend other people to your will. And the media just don't look at that at all.

There's this assumption that the people in the federal government are a whole lot of nice individuals who have good intentions, and it would never occur to any of them to get a thrill out of forcing their plans onto somebody else.

But that's what it's all about, and that's what it's been about for thousands of years. Government is brute force. Coercion. Chains. Prisons. Follow our plans or else. The political mind is the mind of a bully.

Crux: We often hear the U.S. is involved in the Middle East because of oil... How big a role does oil actually play?

Maybury: I think oil is an excuse. I don't think it's a reason for the empire. Whoever owns the oil has to sell it or it's worthless.

They may not want to sell it directly to us, but they're going to sell it to somebody. This will increase the total world supply of oil, and the price of oil from other suppliers will go down.

So the idea that this is all about oil... that's just a smokescreen. It's about power. It's about the thrill that these people in Washington get out of meddling in other countries.

Crux: You mentioned before that it's very difficult to make predictions. But what do you see happening next in the region?

Maybury: As far as that's concerned, I refer to Egypt again. The friends of Washington are widely hated by their own people, and they will be coming under pressure to hit the road.

Look what happened to the Shah of Iran back in the late '70s. I think it's going to happen to pretty much all of Washington's surrogates. Like I said, it's a fool's game to try to predict these things, but that's the direction events are going now, and that's the direction I've been predicting since the early 1990s.

Before the Soviet Empire fell apart, the Soviet Union sat on Chaostan like a lid on a pressure cooker. One of the forces at work there was the individual tribes that ruled these countries did not want to be conquered by the Soviets, so they formed alliances with Washington as a protection against the Soviets. When the Soviet Union fell in the early '90s, this essentially removed the lid on the pressure cooker. The explosion began, and now it's escalating.

In the 1990s, the rest of the world was cheering a new era of peace and brotherly love... and I was saying, "That's ridiculous. The whole place is going to blow up." Everybody said I was crazy, and I kind of wondered if maybe I was.

But it turned out that by the year 2000 — a mere 10-year stretch of the new era of peace and brotherly love — more than 100 wars broke out and more than 5 million people were killed.

I think what's happening today is just the beginning of what will turn out to be even more violent than the '90s. There are literally hundreds of millions of really angry people over there, and a rebellious momentum is growing.

Again, I'm really reluctant to make specific forecasts on this kind of thing. All you can say is governments have been creating empires since the beginning of history, and empires have been falling apart since the beginning of history... We're in one of those "falling apart" periods now.

Crux: Do you think the individuals in power in Washington realize the empire is crumbling? Do they even realize it's an empire?

Maybury: Well, it's official U.S. policy that Washington does not have an empire. Everybody is taught that.

But just a couple months ago, President Obama phoned up Mubarak in Egypt and fired him. If that's not an empire, what is it?

Now, Obama has decided the Libyan government should change, too. These people in Washington seem to think they're ordained by God to somehow make the world better.

I think it's amazing they believe they're intelligent enough to be able to do that. It's actually pretty hilarious.

Crux: So as the empire begins to crumble, how do you think Washington will respond?

Maybury: I think we'll see more examples of Washington trying to steer events in directions favorable to Washington. Notice I'm not saying favorable to America. I'm saying favorable to the U.S. government. They are two entirely different things.

Of course, the people in Washington are all individuals. They all have their own agendas. They can't even agree on what's favorable to the government.

So they're all grasping at straws. They have no idea what they should really do in a situation like this. There are no guidelines. And since they don't even want to acknowledge they have an empire, they don't understand what it is they're trying to save.

I mean, talk about a bunch of lost souls. They seem to think being elected means they have some sort of special ethical position in the world. They have no idea what it is they're trying to defend. All they know is they're trying to defend it.

Typically, in every empire, it all continues until one day somebody looks at the books and says, "Gee, we're broke. We can't do this anymore." That's when it all starts to come apart.

One of my favorite stories is about William Gladstone — the prime minister of England in the mid-1800s — and that's essentially what he did. He just said, "Look, we're going broke trying to prop up this empire. This is ridiculous."

He started dismantling the British government's power. He probably made more progress in abolishing political power than any other lone individual in history. It's an amazing story.

Gladstone is one of the few peaceful examples of how all empires go down. They eventually realize they can't play the game anymore. They realize they've exhausted their resources... They've bled the population dry.

Humans can only produce so much wealth, and the government is consuming this wealth in order to prop up the empire. Eventually, it all just goes under.

Incidentally, we're talking here today about the federal government's empire abroad... But America itself, internally, is part of the federal empire, too. There are no less than a quarter-million federal bureaucrats making and enforcing regulations on us. And each of these regulations is backed by guns, chains, and prisons. It's not much of an exaggeration to say the whole world — including America itself — has been conquered by the federal government.

Crux: How close do you think we are to the point where the empire collapses the economy?

Maybury: My best guess is we're in the process of going under now. That's the economic trouble the average American is noticing... the unemployment, the business failures, the financial crash, the real estate collapse... plus the mental and emotional strain — the psychological depression, marital problems, divorces. It's the process of the empire going under. The economic problems are symptoms of the manipulation of the currency, and all sorts of other economic tomfoolery, to try to keep the federal bureaucracy well fed at the expense of the rest of us.

The absolute best thing Washington could do for the American people — if the folks in Washington were honest — is just announce that the empire is over. "It's finished, we quit." We're going to withdraw our troops from all those countries around the world. We're going to bring them home to defend America. We're not going to meddle in other countries anymore.

After all, this attempt to keep the Empire alive is just squandering blood and treasure for nothing. We're bankrupt. We can't do this anymore. The attempt to preserve the empire — which means, largely, the attempt to keep Washington's surrogates in power — is just dragging out the whole painful process and making it all the more expensive and hopeless.

If they'd just give it up, that would be the first big step in triggering the economic recovery. But they're not going to do it. They're power junkies. They'll drag this thing out until — in the words of political philosopher Howard Kershner — the last bone of the last taxpayer has been picked bare.

Crux: So what are the personal and investment implications of the fall of the American Empire? How do you recommend people prepare for what you see coming?

Maybury: First and foremost, you should have a good stash of emergency equipment and supplies. Everybody should have these things anyway, because you never know what's going to happen, be it earthquakes, riots, hurricanes, riots, epidemics, riots, blizzards — did I mention riots?

Hello again, Matt,

Thanks for the interview. Now that is very interesting.

I agree with Richard Maybury's basic premise of the American Empire coming apart and falling down. And I agree that the so-called "leaders" are really men who are addicted to power. They believe that they must run the world or the world will run them. (There might even be some truth to that.)

Something that Maybury did not mention is the fact that very rich and powerful men own and run the corporations that make the decisions to dominate impoverished foreign countries and extract their raw materials and pay little for them. Much of the American wealth was actually taken that way.

I disagree with how Richard Maybury downplays oil. Petroleum is absolutely essential to our industrial civilization and without it, nothing works right. Oil is both a chemical feed stock and an energy source. Without oil, it will all come to a screeching halt. And the world is running out of oil. We are just fresh out of dinosaurs (and Jurassic vegetation).

We use oil as the raw material for everything from plastics to medicines to insecticides and fertilizers to grow our food. Then we use it as fuel to move the food into the cities. Almost everything that moves is powered by oil. (Coal converted into electricity powers only a few trolley cars and subway trains, and a handful of electric family cars.)

We even use oil as the energy that builds other forms of energy, like nuclear and solar. Diesel powers the bulldozers that dig the uranium ore, and the trucks that drive it to the refinery, which is also petroleum-powered. Then more petroleum-powered vehicles carry the finished fuel rods to the reactor, which was also built with petroleum power.

Extremely-highly-refined chemicals and solvents that were made from petroleum are used to process silicon which makes the purified silicon wafers that become microcomputers and silicon solar cells. And the machines which make silicon wafers into integrated circuits were also built with petroleum energy and parts made with more petroleum.

Without oil, none of that happens.

Around 1998 to 2000, the price of oil was hovering in the $10 to $14 a barrel range. Now it's in the $100 to $140 range. That is ten times more expensive. Our economy and our industrial civilization were built on the basis of cheap oil. The highway system, the automotive industry, the division of cities into inner core and outer suburbia, all depend on cheap oil. The mass production of food depends on oil, and transporting it into the cities depends on oil. The railroads and airlines depend on cheap oil. Expensive oil is bleeding the lifeblood out of the system.

So how is any of this relevant to the Orange Papers? Well, for starters, I find Richard Maybury's descriptions of men addicted to power to be accurate. They totally crave power and they are in denial about it. They will do crazy things, even suicidal things, to continue to feed their addiction, which they call "the American way of life". They rationalize their behavior and even consider it virtuous. They minimize and deny the problem, and insist that they don't need to change their ways. They even insist that they are doing the right thing, as their lives fall apart. And as they harm others.

This is also relevant to the Orange Papers because we all live in this crazy world that they have made. I don't see much joy in getting unaddicted to alcohol, tobacco, and drugs, only to freeze and starve in the dark. Me, I keep an ax and a bowsaw in the closet. And I have plenty of pocket knives and sharpening stones. Now maybe that's just because I lived on a hippie commune, and I'm familiar with that lifestyle. I can see going back to chopping wood and gardening. That lifestyle is workable, at least for me.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    People unfit for freedom — who cannot do much with it
**    — are hungry for power. The desire for freedom is an attribute
**    of a "have" type of self. It says: leave me alone and
**    I shall grow, learn, and realize my capacities. The desire for
**    power is basically an attribute of a "have not" type of self.
**       ==  Eric Hoffer

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Matt2 ]

Date: Tue, October 1, 2013 4:56 pm       (answered 4 October 2013)
From: "Matt J."

I thawt you'd like Stansberry.... he's on Wikopedia as a sort of bad guy, but the Wall Street Journal (and others) thawt otherwise. Cutting edge on an interesting level.... and I have bawt some of his suggested stocks (that have done ok). I think he mite have woken me up to [practicing] cults as well. However, what you've written is 'mo powerful stuff... parallel.. I lean twards conservative, but I don't know anymore..... both parties seem to be fascist.... but fk them. From my Boston 'daze" at BU's College of Basic Studies..... well, the info given was placed and learned [enuff] in the good way, but not understood or grocked by me at the time. Now it seems to be, well, the chix have come home to roost. It is odd tho... once the snake has bitcha, it does no good to charm [the snake}. I like snakes, but I get the meaning of being bitten by something poisonous. Anyway, we do not live long enuff to recognize patterns... political or otherwise.... that harm us. Your work is very important to me.

Thank you, Matt

Hi again, Matt,

Oh yes, I found it very interesting. Thank you. And thanks for the compliment.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The history of the rise and fall of empires teaches us that
**     it is when their own citizens finally lose faith in the virtue of
**     infinite war and permanent occupations that the system enters into
**     retreat."
**       ==  Tariq Ali

[The next letter from Matt_J is here.]

July 31, 2013, Wednesday, my back yard in Forest Grove:

Bell Pepper
A Pepper in my garden. At least, they told me that the plant is some kind of pepper. I'm wondering about that.

This bush was a gift from my gardener Alan. I never realized that Rosemary was just pine needles. But it is. Very spicey, aromatic pine needles. And this Rosemary doesn't come any fresher.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Sober_By_Choice ]

Date: Thu, October 3, 2013 9:57 am       (answered 4 October 2013)
From: "Sober By Choice"
Subject: The Pepper

Hi Terry, I just saw your photo of "the pepper" from your garden in the most recent letters. That looks to me like what we used to call "ground cherries." There is a round seed inside that is juicy and makes great preserves. However, the plant stem and leaves don't quite look like the ones I knew back in the Blue Ridge Mtns. that my grandmother's made into preserves, or quite like the plants we have here in the Rockies that are similar. The shell is paper-like and fluffs off in the wind sometimes. Deer are fond of them when ripe out here. I once looked up ground cherries and think I recall there are many varieties in the US.

Anyway, hope your pain is better, and congrats on the great work you continue to do and number 13. I just passed 32 years last month.

Sober by Choice

Hello Sober by Choice,

Thanks for the note. Wow. 32 years. That must feel like an eternity. That's been so long that you might have trouble remembering when you drank. "Did I really drink, or did I just imagine it in the previous century?" (Just kidding.)

About the "peppers": I'll have to check that out. Whatever they are, they are supposed to be good to eat. Last spring, some people were giving away some surplus garden plants, and I got tomatoes and "peppers". They didn't know what kind of peppers they were. I assumed that they must be either green chili peppers or green bell peppers. Or maybe little red-hot peppers. But whatever these plants are, they are not any of those.

Well, the tomatoes were really tomatoes, and they are good and tasty. All of the plants flourished in my back yard. Not a single one died. Now I need to figure out what to do with these "peppers".

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      Give fools their gold, and knaves their power;
**      Let fortune's bubbles rise and fall;
**      Who sows a field, or trains a flower,
**      Or plants a tree, is more than all.
**         == Whittier, A Song of Harvest

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Mario_R ]

Date: Mon, September 30, 2013 10:29 am       (answered 1 October 2013)
From: "Mario R."
Subject: Another trick from lizard brain

Hello, Orange.

You never replied to the forwarded message below. :) But never mind.

I would like to add another "argument" that addictive voice (lizard brain) makes in order to consume again. It's this:

— You'll have to consume in the future, so you might as well consume now.


  • — You can't stop drinking for good. In some moment in the future you'll be offered a drink and you will have to drink it because of the social pressure. So you just might as well drink now.

  • — You can't stop looking at porn for good. I mean, you just go to any drugstore and you are surrounded with suggestive magazines, and the Internet is even worse. You just can't stop looking, come on. So you might as well just look now.

I hope this is useful to your website!


----- Mensaje reenviado -----
De: Mario R.
Para: "[email protected]"
Enviado: Miércoles, 4 de septiembre, 2013 10:55 A.M.
Asunto: Small comment

Hello, mr. Orange.

Just wanted to add another "strategy" that Lizard Brain will use to get its 'fix'. It happens to me (a sex addict) a lot, and it is:

* So you need to be totally clean... But you just looked a little bit. Oh, OK, you're not clean anymore. You might as well get on a sex binge now!!

I guess for an alcoholic could it be something like:

* So you need to be totally sober... But you just thought about drinking... or you accidentally drank a little bit of wine that was offered to you. Oh, OK, you're not clean anymore. You might as well get totally drunk now!!

The fallacy here is, of course, the Perfect solution fallacy, also known as the Nirvana fallacy. This is the prominent argument of my lizard brain while I am on a binge.

That's it! Thanks! Have a nice day,

Hello Mario,

Thank you for the letter and another logical fallacy. I'll have to add the "Nirvana Fallacy" to the Propaganda Tricks web page. The reason that I didn't respond to it before is because I never saw it before. I don't know what happened to it. But I've got it now. Thanks for sending it again.

I had that Lizard Brain thought listed this way:

Aren't you tired of torturing yourself? Why do you persist in denying yourself life's little pleasures? Why do you persist in putting yourself through all of this pain and all of these cravings? You know you will relapse sooner or later anyway, so why not make it right now, so you can feel good right now?

And also,

Oh heck, you know you don't have the power to really stay sober for years, so why bother trying?

Oh what a devious little monster that Lizard Brain is.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths,
**      but how myths operate in men's minds without their
**      being aware of the fact."
**       ==  Claude Lévi-Strauss, The Raw and the Cooked [1964], Overture.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Monica_R ]

Date: Thu, October 3, 2013 4:14 pm (answered 7 October 2013)
From: "Monica R."
Subject: Re Courts sending violent and sexual predators to AA and NA Petition still getting signatures

hi all,

will you post this again. I still think there are people out there who have no idea. I'm going to post it once a month till my film is released!

Its a tough film to make but someone has to do it. Thanks for all your support.



Okay Monica,

Your wish is granted. Good luck with your movie.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Some people want to know the truth, and some don't.
**     He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
**     He who has eyes to see, let him see.

[The previous letter from Subhuti is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Subhuti ]

Date: Thu, October 3, 2013 4:34 pm (answered 7 October 2013)
From: "Subhuti"
Subject: Diabolical

I am at a point that I would like to put a lot of this behind me. I wish there was some thing I could do to help the people caught up in this. From what I can see, people just move on. I think that is why there are not to many people against AA on the sites and forums. I think that is why AA gets away with it's bs.

From what I could see the people in the program for the most part have serious mental health problems and personality disorders. And then there are those that have had those types of people in there lives feel right at home with them. I do not know what to do except to just get away. The thing that tells me that some thing is wrong is when I feel drained. I am putting a lot of effort in and getting nothing back. It is very delusional, you think some thing is going on, but it is all in your head. That is how the person with NPD does it. They get you to do all the work. That is what the 12 step program is all about. Diabolical, if I may say so.

Hello Subhuti,

Yes. Just yes. You've got it. You understand. And I agree that just getting away is the best solution to the problem. You just don't need problems like that in your life.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When some men were feeling grandiose and bombastic, they said,
**     "Let us build gigantic towers that reach up into the sky."
**     And they did. Then they looked up and said, "Look at how
**     mighty we are.  Look at how big our buildings are."
**     But when people climbed up to the tops of the towers and
**     looked down, they said, "Look at how tiny those people are.
**     They look like a bunch of ants."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Tom_M ]

Date: Fri, October 4, 2013 1:20 am (answered 7 October 2013)
From: "Tom M."

More twelve step propaganda. They never rest. Oooh, my compulsive sexual behaviour is a disease, so I don't even need to try to exercise personal responsibility and self-control. What a self-serving crock. It's sad to see good actors debasing themselves with this rubbish.


Hello again, Tom,

Thanks for the link.

Just this line alone is hilarious. It sounds like a droll satire:

"...attendees at a self-help group as they fight courageously with an inability to keep mickies in pants."

Heck, it's much funnier than members of Overeaters Anonymous courageously fighting donuts.

I notice that the review just slams the movie:

... this poorly written, valiantly acted film allows no such escape from psycho-baloney. It's like watching a horror film that demands the viewer actually believe in the existence of ghosts. Where will this obfuscation of responsibility end?

Well somebody has his head screwed on straight.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When I "graduated" from the so-called "treatment program" at the local
**     "treatment center" (because the health insurance funding ran out), they
**     congratulated me for my continuous sobriety and for "achieving the goals"
**     of the treatment program. That starkly contrasts with the A.A. dogma
**     that says that you are powerless over alcohol. If I were really powerless,
**     then I couldn't have chosen sobriety, and I couldn't have accomplished
**     anything. The so-called treatment is contradictory: They demand that you
**     go to 12-Step meetings and get a sponsor and join the 12-Step cult
**     religion, but they also demand that you act like you have the situation
**     totally under your own control, and abstain from drinking or drugging
**     as a matter of choice.

July 31, 2013, Wednesday, Farmer's Market in downtown Forest Grove:

Farmers Market
Farmers' Market

Farmers Market
Farmers' Market

Farmers Market
Farmers' Market

Farmers Market
Farmers' Market

Farmers Market
Farmers' Market

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[The previous letter from Matt_J is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html#Matt_J2 ]

Date: Fri, October 4, 2013 9:18 am (answered 7 October 2013)
From: "Matt J."

Dear Orange,

Again, I have more crap I wish to dump. I like hearing what you have to say.

I've been thinking how the AA religion brainwashed me. After reading accounts and also going to your (the Orange) site reading how cults operate, presently for me, any widely held and read dogmatic scripture or otherwise that says this right way will get you results (to heaven) or this wrong way gets you to hell.... *plucks my nerves*!

Presently, I'm pondering how to get over three decades of AA cult thinking. I drink too much, know that, and now begin to understand I can change that if I want..... but after three decades of doom-thinkin, its gonna take some effort and time. I'm one of those people who needs other people to help me out of a hole, but I don't know who to trust — given what I've been reading recently.

I just read a list of Major Areas of Post-cult Adjustments. I'm hearing I need to do some cult deprogramming and wondering how one goes about that?

Too, and basically, all this info is aimed at people who are self actuated, that is, they can determine what is right or wrong for them. I never was very good at that. Thru AA, it was easily hammered home that I don't know what's good for me, I am powerless.... not only over an incurable a disease, but I'm a very bad person too, and if I don't follow their program, I'm gonna die of all of the above.... via the lack of a "spiritual" (religious) program of recovery (AA). At this point, I feel bad, but at least I know I'm not bad. I'm more daunted and confused than anything else.

Somehow, I needta turn three decades of overlearned prophecy and lingering dogma around.... and I don't exactly know how.... nor can I completely fathom what the other side of that damn " AA prophecy" looks like? And, what the hell am I getting myself into this time? Is this another scam?

What has held me together for many years is a Bible parable about how God separates the wheat from the chaff. God keeps the wheat and the chaff goes in the fire. I thawt this meant that God throws sinners into the fire (hell) and the others (if any) went to heaven. What I now understand it to mean is that God takes each individual and separates what fear-based reasoning and behavior is over-learned and absorbed while here on Earth — and throws all that into the fire. What is left must be the opposite of fear — Love. I imagine there is no recognition of self anymore.... that all our addictions and mean shit we did in life, etc.... God throws that corruption into the fire, forgotten, gone. What is left is who or what we really are..... energy of some sort? I think this happens even to the likes of Adolf Hitler.

This, of course, goes against the tenets of human thinking. After death, bad people should be punished... in, preferably, an inferno. Is this the design God, who has better shit to do, would make to keep people acting nice while alive on planet Earth? I don't think so. Only humans could dream this dogma up on a massive enough scale that its believed all over the world. Like AA, it doesn't work.... just the opposite in my opinion. However, it appears to me the threat of hell does work well for control freaks, those who want things run their way, and only their way. The only hell I know about is the one here on Earth because of them.... and, as it occurs to me, and tho I am but a mere victim, I include myself due to my own ignorance and stupidity. After all, down here, we all draw from the same pool of ignorance.

I pray that after death, there is nothing terrestrially trauma-influenced anymore. Its all good (total no recall).... and certainly not the harps and clouded heaven or woeful-souls in hell crap we're lead to believe. Mark Twain got that right.


Hello Matt,

Thanks for the letter. Your description of "purification by fire" reminds me of the process of purification of the mind that the Buddhists describe as happening in meditation or death. They also occasionally use the fire image. The individual personality is gradually burned away, leaving only pure awareness, without a personal history or a list of good deeds and sins.

By the way, do you have a link for that "list of Major Areas of Post-cult Adjustments"? I'm curious.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The spiritual virtue of a sacrament is like light,
**     although it passes among the impure, it is not polluted.
**       ==  Saint Augustine (354 — 430 A.D.)

UPDATE: 2013.11.06:
I did not get a URL for the "list of Major Areas of Post-cult Adjustments", but a Google search yielded this, which is probably what he was talking about:

That is a page by none other than Janja Lalich, Ph.D, who also co-wrote a bunch of books about cults with Prof. Margaret Thaler Singer of University of California at Berkeley, who was a reknowned expert on cults and brainwashing. (Look here and here.)

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Last updated 6 November 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters370.html