Letters, We Get Mail, XXXVII

Date: Sat, February 11, 2006
From: "Tammy P."

Why the hell would you put down something that is working for many people. You don't know what you are talking about and it is a damn shame that you are attempting to turn people in need of recovery away from something that can work for them. Are you an addict/alcoholic? If it didn't work for you then you don't want to get better. Do you have God in your life? Silly question I know. Of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be so angry and evil. You know what makes me mad about the God that I love? It is that he loves even you.

Hello Tammy,

You know, there is getting to be quite an echo around here. Your letter is simply a repetition of so many things that other Steppers have parrotted over and over again. There isn't an original word in the whole mess.

  • Why the hell would you put down something that is working for many people.
    It does not work. The claim that A.A. works great and has sobered up millions of alcoholics is the Big Lie of Alcoholics Anonymous.

  • You don't know what you are talking about and it is a damn shame that you are attempting to turn people in need of recovery away from something that can work for them.
    I do know what I am talking about. Read the web site. You could start by just reading the bibliography to see where I get my information.

  • Are you an addict/alcoholic?
    Yes, and no. It depends on your definition of those terms. Read these definitions and the answers.

  • If it didn't work for you then you don't want to get better.
    Wrong again. What "IT" are you talking about? What supposedly works? We just discussed that question in a previous letter, here.

    I didn't try to use cult religion for my salvation. I pretty quickly figured out what A.A. and N.A. were, and used my own intelligence and common sense and will power, and I quit my own way. I have 5 years of sobriety now, so MY PROGRAM is working just fine, thank you.

    • Notice how you claim that any cases where A.A. doesn't work are the fault of the alcoholic. The A.A. program is never to blame, never responsible for any failures.
    • But if a person gets sober while attending some A.A. meetings, then A.A. claims the full credit for the guy's sobriety. Suddenly they say that A.A. really is responsible for the situation.
    • Well, you can't have it both ways.

  • Do you have God in your life? Silly question I know. Of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be so angry and evil.
    It is actually none of your business what my religious beliefs are. You are proving that A.A. really is a cult.

    How or why would my religious beliefs have anything to do with the success rate of the A.A. quit-drinking program?

    Whenever someone disagreed with Bill Wilson, he accused them of being an agnostic or an atheist. You are doing the same thing. That is also just another repetition of the standard propaganda trick of ad hominem.

    But just for the heck of it, I will tell you that I am neither an agnostic nor an atheist. For a greater understanding of my religious beliefs, you should read the file The Heresy of the 12 Steps

  • You know what makes me mad about the God that I love? It is that he loves even you.
    Wow. Are you saying that God goofed? So you are mad about God's behavior?

    How does that jive with the remarks you just made about "Do you have God in your life? Silly question I know. Of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be so angry and evil."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  You believe in God. I believe in God, too. But I also believe
**  in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and The Tooth Fairy, so I
**  am obviously more religious than you, and morally superior to
**  you, because I believe in a lot more supernatural stuff than
**  you do.
**  Next, I'm going to come to believe that the world is flat, so
**  I can really be more religious than all of you.

Date: Sat, February 11, 2006
From: Golightlymuse
Subject: What We Are Really Afraid Of...from a speech by Nelson Mandela

Our Deepest Fear...from a speech by Nelson Mandela

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you /not/ to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

Hi Muse,

Good to hear from you again. I love that quote. Good stuff.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Gandalf said, "The demons of the darkness howl in
** pain when you shine the light of truth on them."

Date: Sat, February 11, 2006
From: "Satish M."
Subject: an average AA expression

Dear Secret Agent Orange

Why am I writng to you ? persuation?appeal?or retort? --not at all --by this time u must hv known that AA cannot afford a contravesy--it is very very intoxicating .I hv no intention of oblivion--&therfore will abide by AA philosophy of no opininion on outside issue including contraversy by an outsider on AAitself !

we all AAs know that athesist/beliver is non issue' --Bill was not angel or saint but "exraordinarily ordinary"--nocult or any cult we hv no problems--negative groowth? but we r not organised to do reasearch or maintain statstics to negate --actually we dont intend to negate ---"As Bill says" we want the best or even the worst to come out ---to reiterate the basic faith of average AA member that AA has saved our life.We believe that this life saving fellowship is much dependent on the personally experienced priciples than any personality be it Orange or Bill himself!----Is AA gender baised --no opinion---Is ths eastwhile 3 legacy symbol was good for jewelry --we dont know it is no more our symbol!!----

In the city of Thane where I live near Mumbai --India we AAs discussed your website --&I AM GREATFULLY OBLIGED TO INFORM YOU THAT ALL OF US FELT THE SAME ---------AA has saved our life which no body could do earlier &we have no opinion on your views ---with best regards----

Satish M --Navaprakash Group --Thane Mumbai India

Hi Satish,

Thanks for the letter.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with just about every line of your letter.

  • To say that "AA cannot afford a contravesy — it is very very intoxicating" is nonsense. That is just a standard cultish demand that nobody dissent or disagree with the cult. Everybody has to parrot the party line.

  • You say, "we all AAs know that athesist/beliver is non issue".
    Oh no it isn't. It is a very big issue. I just got another letter from another true believer who accused me of "not having a God" because I criticized Alcoholics Anonymous.

    Now I know about all of the talk about how you can have any beliefs that you want. That is just the standard A.A. bait-and-switch trick that alternates between saying that you have complete religious freedom, and then demanding that you believe what Bill Wilson believed (or else the program won't work and you will die).

  • You wrote: "negative groowth? but we r not organised to do reasearch or maintain statstics to negate --actually we dont intend to negate. Bill says" we want the best or even the worst to come out ---to reiterate the basic faith of average AA member that AA has saved our life."
    Then how could you possibly claim that the A.A. program works? You can't possibly know what you are talking about if you don't have any accurate numbers.

    And it doesn't matter how much "faith" someone has that the A.A. program works. That is misplaced faith. Have faith in Jesus or Krishna or Buddha or Mohammed, but don't have faith in "a program" — especially not one that came from a crazy American fascist cult leader.

  • Again, you wrote: "We believe that this life saving fellowship is much dependent on the personally experienced priciples than any personality be it Orange or Bill himself!"
    Again, beliefs are not facts. Belief does not equal truth.

    A.A. is not "a life-saving fellowship". It is a cult religion that has a terrible failure rate at sobering up alcoholics.

    I know that you already said that you are not organized enough to keep records or collect data on the success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous, so you can't answer this question:

    What is your success rate? Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A. who come seeking some kind of help or advice for quitting drinking, how many of them become successful sober 10-year old-timers?

    But if you could answer that question, then you could tell me why you believe that A.A. is a "life-saving fellowship". Since you can't answer that question, you have no evidence that A.A. actually works to help anyone quit drinking.

    Well of course you did. That is one of the requirements for a cult. You have to all uniformly believe in it. No independent thinking is allowed. No questioning of the cult is allowed. No dissent is allowed.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Smart people are very good at rationalizing things
** they came to believe for non-smart reasons."

[2nd letter from Satish:]

Date: Mon, February 20, 2006 11:08
From: "Satish M."
Subject: Re: an average AA expression

Hellow dear Orange

thanks for your mail

Hello again, Satish.

I wish to express my experience & strength as under--------- At the outset thanks to A A for granting me the wisdom of survival visavis momentory elusive pleasure of winning an argument---& this has not happened out of barrowed knowledge but on a very sound foundation of persoal experience of 17years & experience of hunderd living AA members around me-------


That is just the standard cultish claim that our group is special, really special, much better than all of the other cults.

And the talk about individual freedom is absurd. The slogans are,

  • "Work the Steps, Or Die!"
  • "If you don't work a Fourth you'll drink a fifth."
  • "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."
  • "When we think we are in control of our own lives we are living in denial."
  • "If you leave, you'll come back on your knees."
  • "Are you in AA or around AA?"
  • "This is a program of rigorous honesty."
  • "Fake it until you make it."
  • "Act As If..."
  • "You can act yourself into thinking right easier than you can think yourself into acting right."
  • "Don't let anything get in front of your recovery."
  • "You must be willing to go to any length for your sobriety."
  • "I pray to God every day that I never get the idea that I can run my own life."
  • "Sit Down, Shut Up, and Learn Something."
  • "Listen and Learn."
  • "Quitting isn't an option for addicts like us."
  • "There aren't any 'musts' in this program, but there are a lot of 'you betters'."
  • "Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. We must obey certain principles or we die." Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.


Apparently, you have not bothered to read either the fourth chapter of the Big Book, 'We Agnostics', or Bill Wilson's second book, "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions". Start there. You can click on the names of those two things to get more information on them.


The fact that you might go to an usual group does not prove that Alcoholics Anonymous is not a cult religion that demands conformity. Again, click on those links to 'We Agnostics' and "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions".



Of course there are demands. Look at that list of slogans above again.


Isn't it funny how cults and odd-ball sects love to declare that "reason doesn't work" whenever they are proclaiming some totally insane cult dogma?

I find every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of it gladly; and where it fails them, they cry out, "It is a matter of faith, and above reason."
John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, 1690


You have a good day too.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches
** pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people
** recovering their true sight, restore their government
** to its true principles.  It is true that in the meantime
** we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the
** horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
** debt.  == Thomas Jefferson

Date: Fri, February 10, 2006
From: "Josie"
Subject: Treatment story

Dear Orange,

Thank you for your website. It helped me tremendously during a dreadful period in my life. You asked for 12-step treatment horror stories. Here is mine:

I was in AA for about 4 years. Married someone in the program. We stopped going to meetings but didn't drink. We had two beautiful daughters. The marriage went bad and I became very depressed at the thought of divorce, went into therapy and on medication, which totally screwed me up. After a year of this and on the way to my Dad's funeral, I had a drink and for some time thereafter continued to drink in moderation. My husband started to go to meetings again, practically moved into the AA-club. Granted, it must have been very difficult for him to watch me have a drink. Both his parents were alcoholics and he practically grew up in AA. His mother died when he was 9 and his Dad relapsed. He's had some truly hair-raising experiences while his father abused alcohol and no kid should have to go through what he had to. On the other hand, my family's attitude towards alcohol was very relaxed and a glass or two or three were a normal and enjoyable part of life.

I traveled for a living and while I was gone the husband would take the girls with him to the club. They would not bathe or brush their hair until I came home. They were late to school or would stay out altogether because Dad had to be at the eleven o'clock meeting every night and then they had to go out for coffee afterward. Four days a week while I was home they were loved and doted on, three days of it were devoted to their father's wants and needs. The marital difficulties now got blamed on my 'drinking'. His total lack of care or concern, combined with my medicated depression and the lack of sleep and an overabundance of jet lag, made me swallow a handful of over the counter sleeping pills one night. Immediately realizing my error, I vomited everything up but he made a big fuss and woke up the girls. I had to go to the emergency room. Although I felt fine (the whole thing was very cathargic actually) I went along. From the ER I had to go to the psychiatric ward at a treatment center. Just wanting to get the hell out of this nightmare I finally agreed that yes, it was entirely my fault, yes I should stop drinking and give AA another go in order to save my marriage. I committed to treatment on an outpatient basis and was able to work my regular schedule.

I desperately wanted to stop taking the meds but instead was given a higher dosage as well as some others to counterbalance the effects of the first. I was told I was in denial about being an alcoholic, that I wanted to blame everything on the pills. So I shut up and went to meetings. My fellow AA-members ridiculed my 16 years of sobriety. I'd just been a dry drunk. One woman laughed when I shared about my half-assed suicide attempt. Right away I remembered why I'd left the first time around. Back at home I got more AA-bullcrap thrown at me. The husband felt victorious, I'd admitted defeat and he was the good guy with 17 years of sobriety. The girls were fully indoctrinated by now. What had been a bad marriage became intolerable. Financially we were spinning out of control thanks to a business he had started a few years earlier, which drained all my hard earned money. I told him to leave and he finally did. The relief was wonderful! Life immediately became so much better. I decided to experiment with alcohol because I was not at all convinced that I had a problem with it. For the first time in years I really enjoyed life again.

The husband rented a gigantic warehouse that he was going to transform into a 'babe-magnet'. He shared it with other people from the program who were down on their luck, vagabonds and strippers, etc. It was an hour's drive to the girls' school and they were absent more and more often. One day a member from the school board came to my door to inquire. The school counselor had been told that Mom was a practicing alcoholic, which of course explained the fact that the girls appeared unkempt and neglected. Never mind the fact that I lived within a mile of the school and they were always on time on my watch, as well as clean, well fed and rested. The Department of Family and Children's Services became involved and demanded that I not drink and go to AA-meetings if I were to keep my kids. When I told them to investigate living conditions over at their Dad's they shrugged it off — he didn't drink. Back in the program again! Things didn't improve no matter that I stayed sober and went to a meeting every day, so the DFCS counselor decided I was lying about not drinking. She yelled at me that she knew 'you sick alcoholics. You'll lie about anything!' Dad was sitting there listening to it, relishing it.

My eldest daughter at ten years old decided that she didn't have to take me seriously anymore and refused to do her chores. She said I was an obsessive-compulsive about keeping the house clean, which is a real joke, but when you compared it to the pigsty 'babe-magnet' then yeah. One time when I came to pick the girls up from his place there was dog poop all over the floor as well as a dead kitten that had been mauled by the dogs. There was trash everywhere. But hey, he was not drinking!

Around this time I became involved with a man in AA, a relationship that was much frowned upon by the other members because I 'ain't from 'round here' and was also openly questioning the principles of the program. He broke up with me right before Thankgiving dinner.

All this stuff made me severly depressed again and I was put on more medication. Unable to sleep for nights on end and stressed out beyond belief I began having panic attacks and soon was unable to function. The medication made me shake and tremble so that everybody figured I was drinking pretty badly, when in fact I'd been stone-cold sober for months.

Seeing this man at every meeting, in spite of our agreement not to go to the same meetings, made things worse. I was shunned by him and everybody else. Three women from that AA-group had committed suicide in as many months, but nobody questioned themselves or the group, let alone the program. (On 9/11 the leader of the meeting suggested 'gratitude' as a topic, so I raised my hand and asked to please address what surely was on everyone's mind: the horror of what had just happened. The reply was that it was political and 'we come here to get away from all that kinda stuff'. Talk about denial!)

One morning my daughter had a tantrum because I told her to do one of her (very few) regular chores, she called her father and asked him to pick her up because 'Mom's being crazy'. He glared at me very self-righteously as he took my girls away. Good Dad. Bad Mom.

In AA they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, but I came to find out that insanity comes when reality as you know it gets turned upside down and inside out — when good is bad and bad is good, when normal is crazy and crazy is normal. Having failed at everything (i.e. curing my depression, saving my marriage, being a Mom, etc) I just lost the point of it all. I felt truly insane. But, I didn't drink! I was a total wreck and I knew I needed to get off the damned pills but I was afraid to stop taking them. If I was depressed now, how would it be without medication? Without my kids and very miserable and confused I didn't see any point in not drinking, so I picked up a carton of beer and called up the Employee Assistance Program at my work and said I needed to get treatment. The treatment center at first didn't want to take me in because my blood alcohol level wasn't high enough, but then did anyway.

So now I was back in treatment (inpatient this time around) to get this horrible mess over with. I was fanatical about it all, wanting to be a model student, wanting to get everything right this time. When I went to see the doctor though he said that my dosage of medication wasn't nearly high enough if I still suffered from depression and that I could safely go to almost twice that. I protested that I wanted to quit, or at least taper down; that my mental health and overall efficiency had greatly suffered throughout the course and that I was in danger of losing my job because of frequent medical absences. He smiled indulgently and handed me the prescription. When I expressed my wishes about psychotherapy he said that all I needed was AA; that there was nothing wrong with me that AA couldn't cure. I told him that I'd been in AA for years and that I'd been sober for 16 years; that I was not in denial and that perhaps I wasn't your typical case. That of course did it. Not your typical case, haha. From that moment on he avoided me like the plague, only calling on me in class to show the others that I was a classic example of relapse due to an AA-less existence. By the time I got discharged (against my wishes because I felt not ready at all), I was on 4 different medications but they negelected to give me a prescription for them. Wanting to get off meds anyway I let it ride but after 3 days I went through excruciating withdrawals and had a helluva time getting the pills I was obviously addicted to. Funny, coming out of a treatment center.

I became a wreck: unable to leave my house, shaking violently. I remember sitting at the kitchen table like a zombie, drifting in and out of consciousness, not knowing if seconds or hours or days had passed by. Luckily I had forced accumulated vacation time. I went back to the treatment center for a follow-up and told the physician what was going on. He said I was at the maximum dose but that there were other meds to straighten things out. I frantically urged him to please see about reducing my meds. He said no way.

After 2 weeks I saw him again. I'd lost a considerable amont of weight, for which he actually complimented me. (At 5'7' and 125 lbs I had no reason to want to shed 20 lbs.) He was annoyed that I hadn't been working and said it was 'suspicious' that I had vacation time right after coming out of treatment. As if I'd plannned any of it! Out of my fog I told him that I hadn't been able to function at all and to please look at the medication I was taking. He laughed and said I was alright and that I better not pretend otherwise and he dismissed me like that.

I called the EAP person and told her that I had been blown off and to please refer me to another doctor. She said that was impossible and that without a note from this guy I would be unable to stay out. He responded to the company that my 'treatment' had been successful and that there was no reason I should not return to work. This doctor had seen me privately for less than 10 minutes over a 3-week period, he messed me up with more drugs and then he declared me well and that was all there was to it.

I'd had 12 years with this company and I lost my job. How's that for treatment?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this lengthy story.

If you put this on your website, please sign me Josie.
Best regards.

Okay Josie,

Wow. Heavy. What a story. Thank you.

And have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
** has cured millions. RARELY HAVE we seen it fail...
** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
** Take what you want, and leave the rest."

Date: Sun, February 12, 2006
From: "Brian H."
Subject: What you make occur for other's will naturally occur for you

At least Alcoholic's Anonymous got one thing proper; through helping other alcoholic's/addict's recover such has caused me to stay sober while aiding other's through recovery.

This principle doing unto other's in order to receive in return is nothing new although such is foundation of the 12 step.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the letter.

Well, to start with, A.A. does not help alcoholics to get and stay sober. A.A. is just a cult that steals the credit for other people's hard work to quit and save their own lives.

A.A. merely recruits those who just quit drinking, or who are about to. Then A.A. says that it "made them quit drinking", or "helped them to quit drinking". Bill Wilson, the founder of A.A., described the recruiting process this way:

"As a matter of fact, the successful worker [A.A. recruiter] differs from the unsuccessful one only in being lucky about his prospects. He simply hits cases who are ready and able to stop at once."
Bill Wilson, quoted in 'PASS IT ON', The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, page 252.

I however did not use these 12 steps through my recovery although provide truths that free one another from cravings; although intelligence is the name of the game.

That is pretty incomprehensible.

Nobody intellectually minded, which applies wisdom throughout their lives, will ever use mood and mind altering substances as a way out of or through escape of their very own problems.

That is pseudo-intellectual bull — just grand-sounding sweeping declarations supported by no facts. The truth is, intellectuals, doctors, priests and ministers all fall victim to alcoholism and drug addictions. If anything, intellectuals, artists, and such people suffer slightly greater addiction rates than the "regular people".

Solve the livelihood problems there with wisdom while truths become intellectual knowledge; which is powerful stuff, therewith you empower rather than de-thrown.

Again, that is incomprehensible nonsense.

A head start for alcoholic's/addicts to gain the freedom from cravings (ignorance) can be gotten through reading: "Total Freedom" by J. Krishnamurti, as well as: "Seat of the Soul", and "Heart of the Soul" by Gary Zukav. All of which destroy ignorance, along with empowering provocative truth.

While reading the philosophy of the East is a good thing, "ignorance" is not the same thing as feeling bad and craving drugs that might make one feel better. That is what you call a False Equality.

No one person should ever be without these minimal prevocational words. Such heals more than one would expect. Partly philosophical but undeniably certain to give one the edge regarding dissention(s).

That is more gibberish. What do you mean by "prevocational"? The Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary defines it as "pertaining to, or constituting preliminary vocational training".

Too much stated about these wonderful works shall merely do injustice for truth speaks for itself, while standing on its very own face value where non shall dissent upon knowing these comprehensibly...

Brian H.

That is simply too garbled to respond to.
Have you been forgetting to take your medications?
Have you seen a doctor?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become
** President. Now I'm beginning to believe it.
**   == Clarence Darrow

Date: Sun, February 12, 2006 20:53
From: "Jim M."
Subject: unrelated

I've heard it said, that a carpenter walked among us some 2000 years ago. Some say he is the son of God. While others say he was a prophet.

Kind regards,

Hello Jim,

Yes, I've heard the same thing too.

Have a good day.

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** When you can't tell the difference between patriotically
** defending America at home, and killing thousands of
** children in a foreign country with "Shock and Awe"
** bombing, you are officially crazy.

Date: Sun, February 12, 2006
From: "Matt M."
Subject: Hi

Dear Orange,

(please accept my advanced apologies for any rough language I may use.....)

Hopefully one day I will find out your real name. I have been off the booze since 9/10/93 and like you was never comfortable with the whole demeaning process of AA where they stripped your self esteem down to nothing in order to "build you up." There was some goofy slogan or cliche behind that but since I've been away from AA for over 1 1/2 years now, I completely forgot what it was. Maybe that is a good thing since it all looks stupid now. If that makes me a "dry drunk" in the eyes of AA, so be it. They can get together in their little meetings, carp about how they are "living in the moment," and profess their fatalistic prophecies about being "one drink away from death." Today, I have no time for such claptrp and found other avenues that are far more productive than sitting with a bunch of neer do wells. In essence I discovered life and got one.

When I went to my 1st AA meeting, I had this mousy looking fuck named Jason who told me he loved me "but your stinking thinks and you don't love yourself." What a wonderful fucking thing to tell a newcomer. Makes me want to "keep coming back." Anyway, he was a charming as PT Barnum and at the time I fell for it hook, line, and sinker and so he appointed himself to be "my sponsor." Kind of like how Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were able to seduce the masses of Cambodia back in 1975 into thinking that an agrarian society and Communist economic philosophy were going to be the best thing for their country. And if you saw the movie "The Killing Fields" or have studied the history of Southeast Asia, you know (in the words of Paul Harvey) what "the rest of the story" is.

AA, with the aid of the American legal system and our tax dollars, is doing the same thing compelling alcoholic offenders in forced conscription to a failed treatment program. It appalls me that we have the choice in this country to choose our own health care provider, the car we drive, the religion we wish to follow, the career we want to choose, the college we want to attend, et al. But if we get busted for a DWI, we have no choice in choosing the type of treatment we want for our alcohol/drug problem /*if we deem we have one*/. That being said, our treatment facilities have been force fed the tenets of Bill Wilson, the greatest American con artist since PT Barnum (at least Barnum had an entertaining product in the circus), and his 12 step program. The Minnesota Model alcohol assessment is so fucking biased in its questioning that anyone can be an alcoholic who answers their skewed questioning. Where is the choice in treatment options and how widely available are they? In this capitalist society (if we still are one), it doesn't exist. Either go to AA or go to jail is there mantra.

OK, I ranted from my libertarian soap box long enough and you may have guessed that I am a libertarian based upon my last paragraph. One of my favorite quotes that I live by today is from Thomas Jefferson. And I quote:

"I have sworn, before the altar of God, eternal hostility against any form of tyranny over the mind of man."

I get shivers whenever I visit the Jefferson Memorial and see that quote underneath the rotunda.

OK, back to the purpose of my letter. I would love to share stories with you about unsolicited medical advice given by AAers concerning antidepressants, non alcoholic beer (try Kaliber from Guiness... it's awesome!), and other goofy shit I have heard from the speaker dais at meetings that I used to attend. I can also tell you stories about AAers that speak from both sides of their mouth (or ass depending upon your view) who tell their sponsees not to get involved in relationships for their 1st year and then end up porking some newcomer female with 2 months clean time. And how they deal with racism inside the halls (AA response: "Let it Go and Let God" and "what was your part?") At this point, I am saying fuck anonymity because I am going to be dropping names like a pigeon drops /guano/ (shit) on unsuspecting al fresco diners at Spago. But right now, I am suffering from writer's block and would like to continue a dialogue with you.

In all fairness, I have met some good people in AA. While I believe they are good in nature, their thinking has been twisted by some zealots who threaten intimidation if they dissent with the party line. (You know, "If you leave AA you'll drink again and die.") One of the wonderful things about this nation is our God given right to dissent with thse we don't agree with. If we didn't have the ability to reason or think, we would be monolithic robots droning through life. The AA meetings I've been to seem to be a lot like that. I am happy to say that since I sobered up, I have a great job with the largest financial institution in the world, have a wonderful wife who was chased out of AA for her Wiccan beliefs and her refusal to say the Lord's Prayer, found some serenity and happiness in cooking Thai food in my leisure time, and spending time with my 4 year old daughter. In essence, I was given the power to rediscover life because I have the ability to reason and think for myself. Whether you believe in God, Buddha (whose teachings I follow), or whatever Wicca believes (my wife knows more than I and I'm learning more about it everyday), we are blessed with certain gifts and have the power to use those gifts to make ourselves happy.

Keep up the good work and hopefully I will get to know your real name. Feel free to use mine anytime.

Best Wishes,

Matt M. (aka ThaiGuy2006 on the More Revealed message board)

"Let's face it. Pizza and a Sprite after games just don't get it."
== Carlton Fisk, MLB Hall of Fame catcher

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the letter. And I agree with you a lot.

Feel free to correspond. I'd like to hear more, especially the no-medications nonsense and the other malpsychia that is foisted on the A.A. victims.

And one day you will know my real name. Someday I will drop the anonymity, when it serves my purposes.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "People unfit for freedom — who cannot do much with it
** — are hungry for power. The desire for freedom is an
** attribute of a 'have' type of self. It says: leave me
** alone and I shall grow, learn, and realize my capacities.
** The desire for power is basically an attribute of a 'have
** not' type of self." == Eric Hoffer

Date: Mon, February 13, 2006 8:54
From: "william n."
Subject: You're On the Money

Dear Orange,

What a great website. All I can say is "thank you" for providing an alternative viewpoint. I've had my doubts about the "fellowship" for a long time, but since I've been foisted into it by the court system, I've had to pretty much stuff them and fall in line.

Hi William,

Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks.

A few things in particular really gall me about AA. One is the absolute vacuum about its non-success rate. What a crime.

Indeed. If it works so good, then why won't they say precisely how good it works?

Do you mean to tell me there has been at least an equal, if not greater chance I would've gotten sober by just doing it on my own? Jesus, to think of the years of time and aggravation I've spent in the rooms. Also, at one time I was sentenced to a halfway house in lieu of jail time — I spent 14 months at this halfway house, which of course, was an AA/12-step training facility.

I get so pissed when I think of all the crap I had to convince myself that I was in order to comply with the program:

my thinking was "stinking;" I was self-centered ("in the extreme"); I had nothing to offer anyone, i.e. sit down, shut up, put the cotton in your mouth; I was morally bankrupt; I was god-less, and on and on.

And of course the more you fought, objected to, or denied these things, the "sicker" you were — and the more it "proved" you needed them. As you pointed out, it's like the Red Chinese brainwashing system. It was impossible for me to get any satisfaction within that closed system of reasoning. And deep down I just knew I had to be the one, alone, to overcome the drinking, but god help you if you ventured that in a meeting.

Yep, it's the witch test. A double-bind.
If you confess to being a witch, then you are one.
If you deny being a witch, then that just proves that you are an evil liar who won't even tell the truth about being a witch.

I also resent (yes, RESENT) the so-called fellowship of AA. I think it's a load of shit. I'm a pretty decent friendly chap, I think, but for some reason I was never invited to be part of the "inner rings" of the AA groups I attended. Those people were the lucky ones always meeting for lunch or going to the diner, doing social things. I dearly wanted to make some friends and do that. I can't tell you then number of people I've called on my phone list and never got called back. I think it has something to do with my looks or my weight. (I'm over weight, what do want from me?) I'm not obese or anything, but I feel it prevented me from being invited anywhere. That was something that really really hurt me. I even talked about it at meetings (with the "blessing" of my sponsor — what a mistake) but once you do that, other AA'ers think you're a loser. So that cemented my outcast position.

I had the same problem too — I was never even close to the inner circle either — but I think the real reason is that the true believers know — they can feel it in their guts — who is a real giddy mindless true believer and who doesn't believe in Bill's Bull.

If you are still thinking for yourself and are skeptical of the obviously untrue dogma in the Big Book, and don't enthusiastically endorse the nonsense you hear in meetings, then you are one of the faithless unbelievers.

And they fear and avoid the unbelievers, because they are afraid that you might contaminate them with doubts and make them relapse and then they will die drunk.

I was told to try other meetings but since I don't have a license (DWI) I have to stick to the local ones that I can walk to. What a drag. I've been to enough meeting over the past 13 years to know it's not just the people at this particular meeting; it's the whole social-club "A-List" scene at these meetings. It's ridiculous. If you're taught to believe "we'll love you even if you can't love yourself," and then those very people reject you, don't call you back, don't ask you to do things with them? well, no wonder people leave and maybe even relapse.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the slogan about "Let us love you until you can love yourself" is just a condescending put-down, just another game of spiritual one-upmanship. It's just another way of telling people that they are inferior and messed up. That isn't love at all.

After some serious reflection and after stumbling on your website, I realize I don't want to hang out with those people. They're really a bunch of sophmoric, programmed non-thinkers who have ceded their personalities and brains to this crazy cult, and frankly I don't need it. The AA "success rate" has got to be the biggest scam perpetrated on the public and society. I really wish the failure rate could be broadcast for public scrutiny.

Me too. And you know, the Internet kind of works. Word is getting around. My bandwidth usage is climbing sharply, so somebody is reading this web site. In just the last 3 months, the downloading (page viewing) has gone from 14 gigabytes to 18 to 22.

It's a long, slow, hard battle, but we are winning. Those of us who are working to get the truth out are doing very well, considering that A.A. has a 70-year head start in spreading its stories.

I personally think the advent of the AA 12-Step program was the beginning of the "I am not responsible for my actions" sickness that has invaded all areas of our society, including the courts, the education system, etc. I think there would be no Oprah or Phil if not for AA, that's for sure. If you stop and reflect on how this philosophy has infiltrated our very core as a society, with all its far reaching tentacles and all its ramifications in almost every public arena, you have to stop and catch you breath ? that?s how sinister this has become.

Yes, for sure. Stanton Peele called it "The Diseasing of America". No matter what they do, everybody has a disease. It's really funny how A.A. talks about spirituality and morality and individual responsibility, and then promotes just the opposite. (Ah, but hypocrisy and reversal of reality is what cults do. It's practically a hall-mark of a cult.)

Anyway, keep up the good work. I look forward to reading more of your stuff.

Bill N.

P.S. I had to crack up when I read one of your letters: You were giving one of your Australian fans some bullet point suggestions about what to do with his time in lieu of going to meetings and one of them was, "You could tie me kangaroo down, mate..." Those of us of a certain vintage remember that tune. Really cracked me up. Thanks for the laughs and the great info.


Thanks for the compliments, and yes, isn't that a great song?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  You did a heck of a job, Brownie.
**  You did a heck of a job, Bushie.
**  You did a heck of a job, Chertoff.

Date: Mon, February 13, 2006
From: "Mvega"

Hi Orange!

I've sent you e-mail in the past.

Yesterday was Sunday Feb 12. The last time I had gone to a meeting was awhile back. When I sent you that other e-mail (I think it was Dec 23-24/05) I had not gone to a meeting then in about 3 weeks to a month.... I can't recall exactly.

Well, I haven't gone to one still (now Feb 12/06). That is until yesturday! I had decided to go just to see something. Just to prove to myself something that I already knew. I don't know why I went really, nothing has changed.

The people that were there, were the same ones as before, with the exception of a newcomer. I had not seen him before.

The same people from before, had the same problems that they had, I mean word for word was said exactly verbatum as before! NOTHING had changed for them!

I was told when I had gone to rehab that meetings were there to help me grow! What a load of crap! You see, it wasn't that one or maybe two people hadn't changed.

There were about 14 there. None of the 14 people had shown any growth!

We sat there for the 40-45 minute discussion and the same topics were brought up since the last time I was there.

Topics being, Step 1, Gratitude, Resentments. I don't know about anyone else but if I have to talk or listen to anyone ever talk of these topics again, I am going to rip my hair out!

Person after person went around talking self defeating talk. Many said, "I am powerless not only over alcohol, but people places and things". What baloney!

So when it came time for me to speak I said something like this.... "Hi my name is _________ and I used to drink a lot. When I drank I got into a lot of trouble. I don't do that today. In fact, I have not had a single drop of alcohol in over 5 years now. My life is manageable today, my drinking you could say is manageable today, as long as I don't have that first drink. So I guess from what I've heard said here today means that no alcoholic could ever hope to better himself. Such things include aquireing a new career, keeping one's present job, making friends, keeping friends. Having a happy family. If one is married it would be impossible for an alcoholic to keep his family, let alone meet someone new and start one. You can forget about ever being happy!"

Needless to say there were a lot of angry people in that room that day.

I looked around and said, "What? didn't you just say you were powerless over people, places and things? People if you believe you are powerless over people places and things, then you can kiss your hopes of having a fullfilling and rich life [goodbye]! You see, I need to have power over myself, situations that involve people, and things such as buying a house or a car or keeping my job. Without these things I would be pretty miserable. I have power over myself and my marriage when it comes to keeping it. It takes work. Both from my wife and me. I guess no alcoholic could ever take on the medical field, for example. That would require a lot of studying, power over the homework!"

Well let me just say that I was asked to leave!

"What? I thought I was allowed to speak my mind?"

The chair person answered with.... "Please leave your discussion to the topic of alcohol and AA. It is clear to us that you are probably not sober, or at best a dry drunk! Come back when you have had an attitude adjustment"

LOL! That is insane isn't it?

Well, I'm never going back. No matter what! Even if I start drinking again, which I know I won't.

Keep up the great site and BYE! ;)

Hi Mvega,

It's good to hear from you again. Thanks for the letter and an entertaining story. And congratulations on your freedom.

It's both funny and tragic how they flip out when somebody tells the truth. And that's another hall-mark of a cult.

And those people are entitled to tell others how to live and recover from alcoholism?

Their stubborn insistence that they must be powerless over everything really reminds me of the mythical Church of Loserism that I was describing in the web page on Powerless Over Alcohol:

It's the church where you proudly brag about what a helpless loser you are. The Beatles' song I'm a Loser is the standard church music. Competence, strength, intelligence, self-reliance, and self-confidence are terrible vices and sins, immoral mistakes to be avoided at all costs, while incompetence, stupidity, ignorance, irrationalty, superstition, blind faith, dependency, weakness, powerlessness, and insanity are virtues to be proudly "admitted" at church get-togethers.
"You are powerless over everything,"
"You can't do it without your support group,"
"You can't handle life without having keepers to tell you what to do",
are the sacred teachings of the church.

I thought I was being funny but it sounds like those people are living it.

Oh well, you are beyond that now.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Gandalf said, "The demons of the darkness howl in
** pain when you shine the light of truth on them."

Date: Thu, February 16, 2006 5:57
From: "Happy Dancing Fox"
Subject: Thanks for making the great site......

Thanks for making the great website.

Thanks for making it as a great down load......

I have been fighting with an "old AA friend" lately and in some ways he is a good friend, but I have been dipping into this site some more and telling him about it, and he says essentially that your a poor deluded fuck who's full of shit.

And I have put it to him "Ok fine, go through his entire site, and counter every fact he raises, with being either substantially correct, partly correct or substantially false and misleading.."

And despite being nailed point blank with "provide the proof to support your argument" about 20 times over 30 emails, he has resorted to a whole spectrum of shit from character assassination, to weak excuses, to lies, ducking and weaving and everything, except to provide the evidence that backs up his contention that you, via the information you have provided, are according to him, full of shit.

And do you know what, he can't fucking do it....

He hasn't provided one fucking grain of evidence to support anything he says in an effort to invalidate you as a person, for promoting verifiable fact based information, that AA is a bullshit predatory cult.

I have been drug free now since Nov 89 and I have walked out of NA and AA, a long time ago — because the members don't like people who get well and can think for themselves, and the fellowships are so fucking corrupt — as in the service structure is an "organised crime" gang type of corrupt, and the people in the service structure right up to the WSO's, back up all the crooks in the groups, areas and national service bodies.

They don't like people who are honest and they don't like being stood up too or exposed for what they are.

So anything that exposes these criminals for what they are, gets my support.

Shane H.

Hi Shane,

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for all of the compliments.

And have a good day.

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could
** touch and help only about five percent. The doctors started
** giving them a dose of LSD, so that the resistance would be
** broken down. And they had about fifteen percent recoveries.
** This was all a scientific thing."
** === Nell Wing — PASS IT ON, page 370.
** (Nell Wing was an early secretary of A.A..)
** Apparently, for treating alcoholics, LSD works three times
** better than cult religion.

Date: Thu, February 16, 2006
From: "Mairtin O M."

Hi Orange

Hope you're well.

Hi Mairtin,

Yes, I'm doing great, and I trust that you are too.

I was reminded after reading one of your recent letters about how stale and still life is in AA. I remember one guy, who had that blank, empty expression we discussed, sharing self-righteously about how grateful he was and about how other members ought to be too.

Six years later I met him at a meeting. Guess what? He shared exactly the same thing. Many members are like stuck records. If fact what they often say is just a recording in their brain, with no original ideas. I guess this is classic brainwashing.

I am no expert but many of the pro AAs that contact you appear mentally disturbed. I don't say this lightly or as a joke. I mean really! It is not funny but I admit I have almost fallen off my chair laughing at them. Half the time I can't figure out what the hell they're talking about or what point they're trying to make! My message to them is keep sending in your letters. They're great! The lack of basic intelligence and logic is a wonderful example and warning to all: This is what the 12 steps will do to your brain!

Yes, there is a very high incidence of mental illness in Alcoholics Anonymous. Sometimes I think of it as a club-house for the nutcases.

Some psychologists did a survey of A.A. members and found that the vast majority of them were mentally disturbed, ranging from merely neurotic, all the way up to full-blown psychotic. Look here.

Hey another thing. My IQ has increased since I left AA!! No joke mate! I also dress better, have more confidence, and have gone back to education — paid for by my boss! They used to say at meetings, "things just happen when you go to meetings" Bullshit, life happens when you leave.

Yes, I believe it. My IQ has gone up too. Now actually we can't establish a real cause-and-effect relationship there, not based on such thin data. My improvement is probably because I have more years off of alcohol and tobacco, and the brain and body have had more years to heal. With such improved health comes improved mental functioning, for sure.

It is just coincidental that I also have just about the same number of years away from the 12-Step clubhouse.

But there is certainly room to argue that getting away from the insanity and relaxing and clearing your mind can improve your thinking. Chronic anxiety and guilt is not good for your brain.

That would be a fun study to do, but it will probably never be done because the Steppers won't cooperate with a study like that, one that would show that you are better off without Alcoholics Anonymous.

I just found a bit of ACoA material from the course I did many years ago. It is about the roles children play in an alcoholic family and how they will turn out as adults!

"The family hero" turns out as an adult: competent, organised, successful
"The scapegoat" turns out as an adult: good under pressure, has courage, helpful
"The lost child" turns out as an adult: Independent, creative, talented
"The Joker" turns out as an adult: good with company, charming, helpful

Now there is one little snag. They have to do the 12 steps to achieve this magical life as an adult.

Ah yes, that's the gotcha. And if you don't turn out to be witty and charming and good under pressure, it's your own damn fault because you didn't work the Steps right.... right?

What they never bother to explain is just how or why people turn out like that. How do those darned Steps do that magic, anyway? I've never heard a good explanation of that one.

This nonsense came from the Handley Centre in County Dublin, staffed mostly by AA members. It may have originated in the US. If I find anymore of this crap I will send it on.


Okay, Mairtin. Thanks for the input.

And have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Rev. Jim Jones said, "If you want what we
** have, and are willing to go to any length to
** get it, then, here, drink the red koolaid. It
** has cured millions. RARELY HAVE we seen it fail...
** But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
** Take what you want, and leave the rest."

Date: Fri, February 17, 2006
From: "Howard W."
Subject: Dry Drunk

Dear Orange:

I find your web site excellent; and, necessary. And, almost entirely correct; that is, I agree with almost all of it.

But, not quite all of it.

I strongly dislike the term "dry drunk". I consider that term to be merely verbal abuse. Verbal abuse perpetrated by AA zealots seeking to employ emotional blackmail.

Taking that as my context, I must disagree with calling GWB ("43") a "dry drunk". By all accounts, George Walker Bush ended his abuse on his own; good for him.

That bit reads as if it were written by an enemy of GWB, using whatever club was available at the moment. I do not believe that you should be a party to that. Plus, you should leave AA weapons in the hands of AA. You are better than that.

FYI, I am a dry drunk. I quit on my own.

So, FYI, was my maternal grandfather, born 1880. In 1919, he was drinking a pint of legal bourbon ( Jack black) a day. When prohibition came in, he quit. He was a dry drunk; and, a very fine fellow ( he died in 1965) I draw your attention to the fact that Bill Wilson did not stop when liquor became illegal. Who should be my example???

In regard to AA, I asked myself this question:

Is AA part of the solution? Is AA part of the problem?

All the rest is commentary.

I commend you and your efforts. You have my support and respect.

Howard W

Hi Howard,

Thanks for the compliments.

I agree that the only relevant question about A.A. is whether it makes alcoholics stop drinking. All of the talk about how wonderful the fellowship and brotherhood is, and how nice the religion makes them feel, is just irrelevant cultish behavior.

I agree that the term "dry drunk" is nothing more than a put-down. You must have seen my web page on The Dry Drunk, I do my best to destroy the notion of "dry drunk".

Also, when we see people behaving badly, it could be caused by anything from mental illness and insanity down to just a hateful temperament, or greed, or callous indifference to other people's feelings, but I don't attribute any of it to "dry drunk".

I have also repeatedly and consistently criticized books and magazine articles that tried to push the "dry drunk" dogma:

Now about the notion of George W. Bush being a dry drunk: I never called G.W. Bush a dry drunk. Others have, but I did not. How could I when I don't think that there is any such thing?

You did not say what page you were talking about. I have several references to G. W. Bush and the concept of "dry drunk".

  1. In the file on The Heresy of the 12 Steps, I asked why the dogmatic A.A. members who accuse the do-it-yourselfers of being dry drunks weren't saying that about Bush. Later, I found that a few did, but most just ignore the question.

  2. In the page on Propaganda Techniques, I was exploring the A.A. "Chosen People" idea, and asking how alcohol prepares us for leadership roles. I mentioned Bush in that context, but didn't call him a dry drunk.

  3. The most likely reference is Alan Bisport's editorial article, "Dry Drunk: Is Bush making a cry for help?" I quoted that article at length at the end of the file on dry drunks. I think that the term 'dry drunk' was used a bit tongue-in-cheek there. Bisport was exploring the concept a bit there, saying that "A.A. says a dry drunk acts like this... Does George act like that?"

    The real thrust of that article was to ask whether George Bush is suffering from severe brain damage from 20 years of whiskey and cocaine. Is George's current behavior the result of drug-and-alcohol-induced brain damage?

Personally, I am most assuredly an enemy of George W. Bush. I regard him as a lying murdering war criminal who should be executed for his crimes. I think we should ship him off to Nuremberg and do with him what we did with the Nazis.

But I don't call G. W. Bush a dry drunk. I can't. There ain't no such thing.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** When you can't tell the difference between patriotically
** defending America at home, and killing thousands of
** children in a foreign country with "Shock and
** Awe" bombing, you are officially crazy.

[response from Howard:]

Date: Sun, February 26, 2006 14:28
From: "Howard W."

Dear Orange:

I am sorry that I did not understand your point with the chapter on "dry drunk". I saw only the AA epiphet.

I find your site to be excellent. I found the links you provided, which I appreciated.

Myself, I quit on my own. I started on my own as well. I drank too much after my wife passed away.

AA is completely unnecessary and useless, as is the 12 steps. I went for a few times after I quit and found AA to be pathetic; an insult. I am not alone in concluding that.

Howard W

Hi Howard,

Thanks for the feedback. Don't worry about the misunderstanding; I do that too now and then.

Glad to hear that you are feeling better now. Have a good day.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Your friend is the man who knows all about you,
** and still likes you."

From: "R.T.B."
Subject: can you clear something up?
Date: Fri, February 17, 2006


In the email you put up as a update from Steven B, it looks like the line "he doesn't need a higher power apparently he is god!" was written by Steven himself . The email in general seemed supportive of your site. You seem to hammer the guy for it by writing this:

I especially liked the line about, "he doesn't need a higher power apparently he is god!" So if you don't join a crazy cult religion and grovel and wallow in guilt, then you suffer from delusions of grandeur and think you are God? That is an example of the Either/Or propaganda technique — reduce the argument to just two extreme choices and try to force people to chose one or the other.

It's also the propanda trick of Sarcasm and Condescension, with a touch of ad hominem — "Oh, he thinks he's God."

Well, Steven B wrote that as a criticism of Thorburn, I didn't see anything in the links provided that had the "he thinks he is god" statement. Is there something I'm not aware of? Has he written you a pro AA email before? Is he in AA? His email reads like he's supportive of your site. Your answer reads like you just bitch slapped him.

Just curious


Hi Rob,

Thanks for the letter.

I think that perhaps you read some part of that exchange in some way different than how either Steven or I read it. I was certainly "bitch slapping" Thorburn, but not Steven B. I wasn't criticizing Steven at all, and I'm pretty sure he knows that.

We have been continuing our exchange of letters, and did two more just today, that you haven't seen yet. They are all in letters file 36, at the tail end of the file.

I think that the point of confusion was in the phrase "I really like the line about..." I meant that in the reverse sense of "Now here is a really outrageous example of a dishonest propaganda technique."

You are correct in saying that the "he thinks he's god" line came from an email between Steven and Thorburn, so there is no link to it. I trust that Steven is telling me the truth about it. The reason that I believe Steven is because I have read all of the rest of the stuff that I have been able to find by and about Doug Thorburn, including his own web site, and I find it appalling. (And I will read his books, just as soon as I can get my hands on them.) We have another fake expert on our hands, telling us all about alcoholics and addiction. And he goes on and on about how alcoholics "need their egos deflated", which in standard A.A. dogma is followed by "alcoholics think they are god".

I really do "have a thing" about frauds and quacks who try to profit from the suffering of sick people. It's one of the lowest and most despicable crimes around. It's really heartless, too. I'll bitch-slap those quacks any day.

Oh, and this is just too good (again, using that reverse 'like' or 'good' sense). This is the frosting on the cake. Doug Thorburg wrote to the web site sexnewsdaily.com (Dead Link. Domain Name is now owned by sedoparking.com.), and...

We heard from reader Doug Thorburn, EA, CFP and drug addiction expert in reaction to our story on porn star Jenna Jamison's autobiography: "I've long hypothesized that most porn stars are either addicts or children of addicts. Jameson is both. I'd also theorize that men who chop off their penises, mistaking them for chickens, are under the influence and, at age 67, long-time alcoholics. And same for leaders of mobs in Nigeria. Have you checked out my Thorburn Addiction Report? You can download the archives and double opt-in for future issues at www.PrevenTragedy.com. I doubt you'll enjoy it quite as muchas I enjoy SexNewsDaily!, but I think you'll be interested."

Shades of my "spiritual" 12-Step recovery counselor who also liked porn and kinky sex...

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*                  Agent Orange               *
*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.

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Last updated 30 December 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters37.html