Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXVII

[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Thu, September 20, 2012 9:52 pm     (answered 30 September 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Another Bullshit Comment from the Peanut Gallery

Yeah. At least the birds do fight back occasionally. When I lived on the farm, there was this one mockingbird who really had it out for Alley, probably because she killed another mockingbird. It would dive down at her and force her to hide under the lawn furniture. Hilarious. I would rescue Alley, not because she deserved to be rescued, but because that bird made a lot of racket while attacking Alley. It even went after Titania, probably because she's a cat, and she looks a lot like Alley. Both cats are tabbies, with the main difference being that they have different stripe patterns.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Yes, the last time I saw a bird attacking a cat, it was because the cat had grabbed the mate of the bird.

Yeah, ocicats are basically a combination of siamese, abyssinians, and American shorthairs. Somehow, that results in a cat with a spotted tabby pattern that looks like an ocelot, despite having no wild cat DNA (unlike the similar-looking savannahs, who are serval/cat hybrids).

I think my two favorite pieces of cat-related bullshit are this Kickstarter for a cat motivational tape
(mostly for the hilarious Rob Paulsen reading) and this reiki cat video
In the latter, the cat apparently wasn't even ill, just hyper. You know, like most cats tend to be for 30 minutes — 1 hour each day. Since the cat calmed down with the reiki, it probably just wanted affection, and putting your hand on a cat's head and speaking to it in a soothing voice is affection. Titania gets in the way and walks all over my laptop when she wants attention. Sometimes, she steps on the power button.

And there is a cruel irony to the Dakotas being anti-Indian, considering those states were named after Indians.

Yes, and the Dakotas were originally "the Indian Territory", guaranteed to the Indians by treaty forever — "as long as the river flows, and the grass grows", etc. But then somebody discovered gold in the Black Hills.

Funny how gold automatically invalidates previous promises.

I do have to wonder about the sort of people who have so much anger and hatred as a lot of talk radio personalities do. It can't possibly be good for them. I can see why Rush Limbaugh abuses painkillers. Spewing vitriol every day drains a person, no matter how much money they make from doing that.

Yes. What kind of a life is it, knowing that you are making millions of dollars as a professional liar and hate-monger? You would have to have a very warped value system to rationalize that.

Unfortunately, Big Nurse is everywhere when you have a disability or mental illness. Or, heaven forbid, both. Incidentally, mental hospitals and prisons are a lot alike. No shoes with laces allowed. You can't wear certain clothes (I had my overalls confiscated). The days are highly regimented, from the time they want you to wake up to the time they want you to go to bed. Visitors are only allowed at certain hours. After every meal, they check to make sure you've returned all your plastic cutlery. By the way, the food tastes like prison food. The soap is in travel-sized containers. And you stay in the hospital for however long the doctors want you to stay.

That last sentence sounds frightening. In bad rehabs, that translates into "as long as your health insurance pays."

Warm Springs is kind of a cross between that environment and a college. There's no restrictions on your clothing. You're actually free to walk to town and even have a car, unlike the mental hospital, where I was confined inside from day one until the day I got out. Things are set up so you don't need a car, though, and there's even trips to Walmart every weekend. The cafeteria food tastes significantly better. Your parents can visit you whenever they want. But if you stay with your parents for longer than the weekend, you have to tell your assigned counselor beforehand. Kind of like a probation officer, actually.

The whole "working your way up" thing isn't restricted to the medications. New residents start off in a barebones dorm with a roommate, and you're not allowed to bring in furniture that can't be moved easily. To be fair, that's because there's a decent chance your roommate will be a wheelchair user. Eventually, you can move in to an apartment with a fridge and your own room. They never trust you with appliances like toasters, though. This set-up is a lot like my old college, where upperclassmen got nicer dorms than the freshmen.

I can't quite tell from the tour just how regimented the day is. Is it structured like a college, or structured like a mental hospital? I'm also not sure how easy it is to quit the program if I don't like it. But the place does have a fair amount of good points. They stopped requiring everybody to take the same living skills classes before work training. Instead, they test everyone to see what skills they need. There's a variety of work I can choose to do. It seems like I'll get paid while training. They'll help me get a job when I'm done with the program.

So, it seems like I can get a lot out of this if I can put up with being treated like a naughty teenager for a while. I do wish a non-patronizing program of this type wasn't too much to ask for, though.

Good luck there. Yes, I also wish for non-patronizing personel in such places. It seems to be an occupational hazard — many of those jobs like caretaker for people with mental problems quickly lead to the staff having patronizing attitudes, or worse.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve
**     the Great Spirit.  If there is but one religion, why do you
**     white people differ so much about it?  Why not all agreed,
**     as you can all read the Book?
**       ==  Chief Red Jacket, "We Also Have A Religion", 1805

[The next letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Rebecca_J ]

Date: Sat, September 22, 2012 7:49 pm
From: "Rebecca J."
Subject: Attack on AA

You are an idiot.

Sent from my iPhone

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#LDJ ]

Date: Mon, September 24, 2012 12:16 am     (answered 30 September 2012)
From: "LDJ"
Subject: Thanks for your web site

Dear Orange,

A few years ago I got sucked into the AA nightmare. At the time I thought it was the only way out of an ongoing battle I'd been having with alcohol. Well, it turned out that it only made it worse. I was always relapsing, going back to meetings, relapsing, going back and on and on. Finally, just one year ago I ended up in the hospital for the umpteenth time, nearly dead and so messed up that they kept me sedated for a week while trying to get my heart rhythms back to normal. While in the hospital, a friend stayed with me and together we searched the internet for alternative answers to AA and found your site. There was enough information there to get me going in an entirely new direction, 180 degrees away from AA, a direction that I think saved my life. Today, I'm sober, I'm happy, I'm healthy and I've been that way ever since leaving the hospital one year ago. I have a future ahead of me, a new business I now own and I'm in better shape physically than I was when I was 20. Most importantly, I have drive, determination and I now know I WILL make it and realize my goals. It's all because I read the information you provided and made a decision.....a decision to take responsibility for my actions and I consciously decided NOT to drink, ever again. I made that promise to myself and it's worked. I have no cravings, I'm not an unhappy "dry drunk" and I'll never set foot inside an AA meeting again. I now see AA for what it really is, a cult that simply does not work. I also occasionally see some of the AA members that I used to see in meetings, on the street from time to time, and to a man, they're all still locked in a battle they'll never win as long as they stay in AA. I've tried to help a couple of them but there is no help until they open their minds and see that they're being brainwashed. I just wanted to thank you for putting your web site out there. There are alternatives and they work, whereas AA will always fail. Thanks Orange, I have my life back.


Hello LDJ,

Wow. Thank you for the letter. I'm flattered and very happy to hear that things worked out for you okay. It sounds like you've got it, and there isn't really anything for me to say other than, "Thanks for the thanks, and have a good day." And congratulations.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When they tell you that you are powerless,
**     that just means that somebody else gets the power.

May 30, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Mallard Duck
Mallard Duck

Canada Goose goslings
The first Family of 6

Canada Goose goslings
The first Family of 6
The baby of the family is the last one in line.

Canada Goose goslings
The first Family of 6

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Fri, September 21, 2012 6:48 pm     (answered 30 September 2012
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Could this Bullshit be AA? Damn..A bloody murder in 86


Mother testifies about finding Ginger Hayden's body

Posted Thursday, Sep. 20, 2012

By Dianna Hunt

Her last words to her mother were, "I love you."

During emotional testimony that left some jurors in tears, the mother of a slain 18-year-old woman testified from her wheelchair Thursday about finding her daughter's brutally stabbed body in the apartment they shared in west Fort Worth.

Sharon Hayden Harvey, who has multiple sclerosis but was not using a wheelchair at the time her daughter was killed, told jurors in state District Judge Everett Young's court that she found the body when she went to investigate why her daughter had not turned off her alarm.

That morning, Sept. 5, 1984, would have been Ginger Hayden's second day of classes at the University of Texas at Arlington. Harvey said she saw Hayden slumped beside the bed.

"I thought she was teasing me," Hayden testified. "I went down and touched her leg and it was cold.

She said she stumbled from the room and called an operator for help.

"I said, 'My baby's dead,'" she said.

Her screams woke the neighbors.

Harvey fought through tears several times on the witness stand but broke down in sobs as she left the courtroom.

She was among the last witnesses to testify for the prosecution in the capital murder trial of Ryland Shane Absalon, 45, a former schoolmate of Hayden's at Arlington Heights High School who lived in the apartment upstairs.

Prosecutors Lisa Callaghan, Jim Hudson and Anna Summersett have presented DNA evidence linking Absalon to the crime, and several witnesses have testified about confessions he made while undergoing drug and alcohol abuse treatment a few years after the killing.

Defense attorney Gary Udashen has told jurors that Absalon falsely confessed because of pressure to participate during the Straight Inc. program, a controversial drug rehabilitation program that was eventually shut down because of abuse allegations.

Two former participants testified Thursday about hearing Absalon confess to stabbing a girl while in group therapy in 1986.

Stefany Knight, now a social worker in Arkansas, said Absalon told the group that he was high on heroin when he stabbed a young woman to death.

"Shane stood up to admit to wrongdoing when he was high on heroin," Knight testified. "He said he killed a girl ... stabbed her. He had a knife. He waited in the closet, then he stabbed her on the bed."

Details of the confession closely mirror the facts in the slaying. Hayden was found slumped beside her blood-soaked bed and had been stabbed 57 times.

Another former participant, Michele Valencia, who now owns a physical therapy clinic in Plano, said the confession made her "ill, sick to my stomach."

But she later testified under questioning from the defense that the goal of the untrained program staff was to force people to admit to wrongdoing even if it wasn't true. She said she told the group she was a drug-addict and alcoholic even though she wasn't, just to get out of the program.

"It was cult-like," she said. "There was some brainwashing going on ... I learned I had to conform. I had to do it to get out."

Earlier in the day, Deputy Medical Examiner Marc Krouse told jurors that Hayden's injuries indicate she fought back against her knife-wielding assailant, but that the onslaught of stab wounds eventually killed her.

Krouse said that four stab wounds were "very bad" and several potentially lethal, but the 53 other stabs and cuts contributed to the massive blood loss that eventually killed her.

The defense is expected to begin presenting its case this morning. If convicted of capital murder, Absalon would face automatic life in prison but would be eligible for parole after 20 years. Because he was under 18 at the time of the killing, he is not eligible for the death penalty.

Hello Peter,

Thanks for the tip. That is Straight, which was actually worse than A.A., if you can imagine such a thing. Straight was a very abusive "treatment program" that was derived from Synanon, which was derived from Alcoholics Anonymous.

Charles "Chuck" Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was a former member of Alcoholics Anonymous who decided that he could take the "best" parts of A.A. and add on a confrontational "group therapy" where everybody attacked everybody else, and make a better treatment program for drug addicts. Dederich had this crazy idea that having people verbally attack each other and rip each other to shreds would improve people and make them get clean and sober.

It didn't work. In the end, Synanon degenerated into a nightmare commune cult of guns and alcohol and violence and attempted assassinations. Synanon formed a goon squad called the "Imperial Marines" that was armed to the teeth. The "Imperial Marines" attacked former members and dropouts. They smashed Phil Ritter's head with a baseball bat from behind in the dark of night, and he got meningitis and nearly died. When some victims of such abuse sued Synanon, the "Imperial Marines" put a rattlesnake, minus the warning rattle, in the lawyer Paul Morantz's mailbox. He nearly died from the snake bite. When the police came to arrest the leader Chuck Dederich for attempted murder, he was too drunk to walk. The police had to carry Dederich out on a stretcher. That's really quite some Director of a rehab program, isn't it?

Nevertheless, Synanon is still the basis for all of the "confrontational" drug and alcohol treatment programs in the USA. Former members of Synanon claim to be experts on recovery, and they have set up new abusive programs using Synanon techniques. And those programs spawned more bad programs. There are literally dozens of abusive treatment programs that decended from Synanon, which descended from Alcoholics Anonymous nonsense. Quackery everywhere. What Synanon really taught them is that you need no credentials or training or expertise to go into the child-abuse-for-pay business. Just advertise that you are "helping children", and you can get away with murder. (Literally.)

Every Straight program that ever existed was charged with child abuse and sued. They all shut down under a firestorm of lawsuits and accusations and charges of criminal child abuse. Nevertheless, more abusive descendants of Straight are still in operation, "helping children".

Here are some links to more information about Synanon and Straight.

Now legally, this story presents some interesting questions. The defense lawyer has a point when he complains that his client was coerced into the confession by Straight. Not much of a point, but a little one. I'm sure that the prosecutor will get her conviction anyway. But legally, it's a real question whether someone who is undergoing court-ordered attendance (which this apparently was not) at any confessional drug or alcohol "treatment program" (like A.A. or N.A. or anything based on 12-Step cult religion) can then be prosecuted with the confessions heard there. I think not. However, the prosecutor has DNA evidence, which is probably not tainted by the confession.

Legally, a program like Straight has no right to confidentiality of confessions, like the Catholic Church gets. Straight was never a religion, or based on confessing sins and seeking God, like A.A. is. A.A. supposedly has such protection, because judges have ruled that A.A. is a religion, but that is also violated often. A medical treatment program, which A.A., N.A., and Straights also purport to be, is also supposed to have medical confidentiality, but obviously, they don't. Nothing that you say in any A.A. or N.A. meeting, or "group encounter" drug and alcohol treatment program is confidential or safe, really. On that point, I advise people to assume that anything confessed in an A.A. or N.A. meeting, or in a rehab "group therapy" session, will be faxed to the police, published on the Internet, and gossiped all over town.

From a medical point of view, I'm very curious about how heroin supposedly made this guy kill a girl. Heroin does not tend to make people violent — it makes them passive, and "down". A junkie who just got his fix is nodding out and very happy, not looking for someone to kill. I suspect that this murderer is a very dangerous, very sick psycho killer who just happened to take some heroin before committing murder. Perhaps he was trying to calm down his spinning mind by taking heroin. Apparently, it didn't work. Obviously, the guy has much bigger issues than a heroin habit.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser,
**     in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness.
**     Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment."
**        —  Charles Bufe

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Ron ]

Date: Sat, September 29, 2012 8:55 pm     (answered 2 October 2012)
From: "Ron"
Subject: Correction

A sour grape...Oops...A.Orange....

worked for mew for 29+ years...

Maybe you just didn't do what you were told to.....we call that "self-will" Read 1st sentence on page 58 of the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

THAT'S where the secret is.....

Hello Ron,

Congratulations for your 29 years of choosing to not drink alcohol. Apparently, that's the smart choice for you. By the way, there is no "sour grapes" for me. I have 11, almost 12, years of sobriety too, so my "program" is also working great.

Thank you for showing once again that Alcoholics Anonymous really is a cult. Surrender to "the program" or "the group" is a standard cult characteristic. It's in The Cult Test. Look here:

Surrender to a cult is never the answer to drug or alcohol problems. The very idea is insane. But that's what Bill Wilson was — insane. He just took Dr. Frank Buchman's pro-Nazi cult religion and declared that it was the cure for alcoholism, so alcoholics had to "make a surrender", and that was supposedly "the answer".

A.A. has no magic "secret". Again, that is cult talk — We Have The Panacea.

There is nothing wrong with self-will. It beats the heck out of being a slave and just obeying someone else's will. And doing just what you are told is the path that leads to drinking the cyanide koolaid when the leader tells you to. (Or to not taking your medications, or to becoming a victim...)

By the way, what you are calling "self-will" is often really just thinking for yourself, rather than being one of the sheep.

The first sentence on page 58 is Bill Wilson lying with qualifiers, again: "thoroughly followed our path."

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
Alcoholics Anonymous, William G. Wilson, Chapter Five, "How It Works", page 58.

Bill wanted to count only the sober people, so that his "program" would look like it really works, so he claimed that only the sober people had "thoroughly followed his path." Bill Wilson was a lying con artist who knew how to play word games. Only count the sober people, and disqualify all of those who drink again for not having thoroughly followed the path, and hey presto! — you suddenly have a 100% success rate. What a great program. NOT!

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     What is the difference between surrendering your Will
**     and your life to "Higher Power" in Step Three, and
**     selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety?

May 30, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The older Family of 3

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4. The babies are eating some rolled oats.

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The older Family of 6

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Wade_B ]

Date: Sun, September 30, 2012 4:21 pm     (answered 3 October 2012)
Subject: not so bright
From: "Wade B."

A. Orange,



Hello Wade,

A.A. has not "helped so many." A.A. harms and even kills more people than it saves. That is why I criticize it.

I'd be all for A.A. if it actually worked half as well as the A.A. promoters claim. But telling people to list and confess their sins and not take their medications kills more people than it saves.

And practicing an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties does not get people closer to God either, or make them spiritual, or improve their lives.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Learn true joy and you will meet God.
**        ==  Rabindranath Tagore

[The previous letter from William_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#William_B ]

Date: Tue, October 2, 2012 12:22 pm     (answered 3 October 2012)
From: "WILLIAM B."
Subject: Recent Suicides

Hi Orange

Two more tragic suicides.

Jessica below recently killed herself. I knew her personally from meeting her at AA meets. I liked her and some considerable years ago she seemed friendly and approachable but later became very wary of me. Although I have to honestly say I do not know why.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/9874577     [Dead link]

Inquest hears of Brighton teacher's repeated suicide attempts

3:30pm Wednesday 15th August 2012 in News

A Brighton teacher  tried to hang herself three times in a day at a psychiatric hospital which had been criticised for patient safety three months earlier.

Jessica Philpott died three days after throttling herself with a television aerial cable in the gardens of Mill View Hospital in Hove.

Yesterday the jury at her inquest was told the hospital had decided to discharge her despite "grave concerns" about the risk she posed to herself.

Miss Philpott, a former RE teacher at Oakmeeds Community College in Burgess Hill, suffered from emotionally unstable personality disorder, also called borderline personality disorder.

Between September last year and her death in February she went to hospital six times, after cutting herself, taking overdoses of prescription drugs or strangling herself.

On February 13 she was found in the hospital gardens with the cable around her neck. Earlier staff had stopped two attempts she made to barricade herself in rooms and strangle herself.

The inquest is being held to determine how Miss Philpott died and whether Mill View "by its act or omission" caused or contributed to her death.

Miss Philpott had been admitted to Mill View on February 1 after strangling herself at Royal Sussex County Hospital.

A man in a nearby town of Worthing killed himself in March by jumping off a crane. Verbal reports from acquaintances say he was seen at Al Anon meets looking for somewhere to fit in. The last place I saw him was at an AA meet last year where he complained that my eating chips at the meet stopped him understanding what was going on.

Obviously my own self protection is a strong motivation not to approach aggressive people so I avoided him.

I heard this morn from a friend that some one I should know who claimed to want to go back to AA died. He had met a girl in AA and they had got married and had a daughter. I can not put a name to these people although their names seem familiar. But with 500 people a year in our area being sent by the treatment centres I just get lost in a sea of faces.

I can not help but feel that the 12 Step Program probally fucked with these peoples heads and left them no option but to kill themselves.

I can not help but think of my earlier letter:

" did my own survey. I went to 5 meetings AA, NA, CA, on Monday last week. I counted 157 people not including duplications. Using Vaillant's figures: In one year's time 3 or 4 of these people will be dead. The quote of Vaillant on your site does not reveal a distribution chart for the deaths. It just says that 29 out of the 100 people he could trace were dead after 8 years. We have to remember that the 6 people he could not trace may be dead as well.
129 x 29% = 37
Am I missing something because I find it hard to believe that these people who I know and love are going to die."

In reviewing this letter I can see that my maths is correct but how I got from a sample of 157 to 129 not sure — must have had a bad day.

However the facts that I have reported at the beginning of the letter from only those people who I know or should know personally bear out Vaillants findings. Since Vaillant clearly reported his findings factually this does not suprise me.

On a personal note one day when my son D and I were playing golf on his Wii machine I said "lets look in the shed for some clubs and go out to the local 9 hole. I forgot that it is half a golf course not a pitch and putt. So off we went. I also forgot that I would have to carry the clubs.

Anyway D enjoyed it so now every weekend we play golf. D particularly likes rolling around in the bunkers and playing the 7th hole on his hands and knees using only a putter.

My father in law offered to buy some junior clubs but I had that covered I thought it was because he is from Scotland and he wants D to remember his Scottish heritage. But apparently he told my wife that "no one encouraged me to do anything when I was young" and indeed Hell would have frozen over before my father took me to play golf. Is it not amazing that childhood regrets/losses/etc. echo down the generations.

One query I remember seeing a film which was claimed to be based on a true story of a young lady who led a family of hand raised geese on a migration to Florida by using a microlight. So the question is how do your orphan geese achieve this feat.

Regards and Respect

Hi William,

Thanks for the letter and the information. The suicides are certainly depressing. So I'll take the last item first. That's easy.

The story of the family of hand-raised geese getting led south by an ultra-light is a true story. Actually, the journey's start was in Canada, in Ontario, I think, and the destination was North Carolina in the USA. They made a movie of it — it's called "Fly Away Home". (Recommended. Rent it, or download it, or something.) I described that movie more in this letter:

How you get the geese to follow is super-easy: You can't stop them. Canada Geese goslings are very intelligent, and they know who their parents are. And they know when you have adopted them and saved their lives, and become their foster parent. So they become very attached to you, and follow you around all day long and hop into bed with you at night, and cry if you won't let them sleep with you. (I learned that one the hard way, and had to give it up and sleep with them.)

Young Canada Geese expect their parents to lead them south on a migration in the autumn. So when the girl who was the foster mother of the orphaned goslings started leading them around in an ultra-light, the young geese were eager to follow. All that she had to do was exercise them, taking them on longer and longer flights around the neighborhood, to build up their wing muscles before the journey.

Now, on to the suicides. That is so sad. The hospital kicking that woman out when they knew that she was likely to commit suicide is reprehensible. I can just see some official rationalizing, "It's policy. That's what the rules say. Three days and out." I'm sure that part of that is due to budget cut-backs. Great Britain under Margaret Thacher and the USA under Ronald Reagan have both seen big cuts to government services, and cuts in funding of mental hospitals have been the result. Reagan actually argued that mentally-ill people should be free — he was nuts, he was an Altzheimers case himself — so he kicked all of the mentally-ill people out onto the streets and closed the mental hospitals. As a result, we now have homeless mentally-ill people in the streets of every city in the USA. And occasionally, they commit suicide or murder.

And of course, those sick people often try to fix themselves by self-medicating, so they also get into trouble with drugs and alcohol.

I agree that A.A. and Al-Anon are doing a great disservice to those sick people. The last thing that depressed suicidal people need is some 12-Step fanatic telling people to "Work The Steps" and list and confess their many sins, wrongs, moral shortcomings, and defects of character. That's just another "repent and be saved" cult religion, which is not good for already-depressed suicidal people. Again, A.A. is just not qualified to treat mental illness. They aren't "the experts of addiction", like they claim.

Oh well, have a good day anyway. Speaking of which, playing golf with your son is a lot more fun than going to an A.A. meeting, isn't it? Healthier, too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In any given year, people with alcohol dependence commit more
**     than 20 percent of suicides in the general population; while
**     80 percent to 90 percent of alcohol dependence suicides are
**     by men, mostly white.
**        ==  Fred W. Johnson of the Prevention Research Center at
**            Texas A&M; University == UPI, Sept. 21, 2009

May 30, 2012, Wednesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The new Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
Four Goslings Underwater
Those four goslings suddenly decided to play, and also get a bath at the same time. They all just dove and went underwater. Geese and goslings are also good underwater swimmers. Going underwater is also a good defense against eagles and hawks that might want gosling for dinner, so it's a good skill for them to practice.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#William_N ]

Date: Fri, September 28, 2012 6:06 am     (answered 4 October 2012)
From: "william N."
Subject: Dr. Griffith Edwards

Hi Orange,

Hope you are well. As always, I've been enjoying the letters section of the Orange Papers.

Hey, have you heard of this guy, Dr. Griffith Edwards? Here's his obit:


Any thoughts on this guy?


PS — Like you, I've been into bird photography. It's such a nice way to spend a day in the woods or at the shore. I live in NJ so I go to Cape May a lot to take photos.
Really fun and relaxing.

Dr. Griffith Edwards, Addiction Specialist, Dies at 83

Published: September 25, 2012

Dr. Griffith Edwards, a psychiatrist who helped establish addiction medicine as a science, formulating definitions of drug and alcohol dependence that are used worldwide to diagnose and treat substance abuse, died on Sept. 13 in a hospice near his home in Greenwich, England. He was 83.

Griffith Edwards
Dr. Griffith Edwards

He died after a stroke, his wife, Susan, said. The death had not been widely reported outside England.

Dr. Edwards reshaped thinking about heavy drinkers and their problems, about the psychology of drug use and its treatment, and about the policy implications for governments and health agencies seeking to reduce abuse.

He was among the first doctors to perform careful studies of skid row drinkers and of talk therapies for addictive drinking — " these at a time, in the 1960s, when habitual drunkenness was considered a moral failing and virtually the only treatment was to dry out.

In 1975, Dr. Edwards took what had been a respected but obscure medical journal, The British Journal of Addiction, and turned it into the field's flagship platform, publishing the top research findings from around the world.

In 1976, working with Dr. Milton M. Gross, another addiction researcher, he examined what was then loosely known as alcoholism. The two determined that a true drinking problem had several discrete, measurable components, like craving, heightened tolerance, loss of control and physical withdrawal symptoms. That description became the basis for the definition of drug or alcohol dependence in two of the world's most influential diagnostic manuals, from the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization.

"He was one of the few true giants who moved the alcohol and drug field into mainstream medicine," said Dr. Marc A. Schuckit, a distinguished professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego, "one of the first to begin asking questions in a systematic way about these problems" rather than merely describing them.

In one of his most influential papers, Dr. Edwards described how he and a team of researchers, in 1977, compared the effects of a standard long-term counseling program for heavy drinkers with a single "advice" session. After a year, there were no significant differences between the groups. But after two years, those with more severe dependence were drinking less, on average, if they had received the more intensive therapy. The finding inspired study of the so-called matching hypothesis, in which treatment approaches are tailored to individuals depending on their habits.

"Now it's pretty standard that no matter what therapy you use, the most important thing is engaging patients in a collaboration to achieve sobriety," said Thomas F. Babor, a professor in the department of community medicine and health care at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine.

Dr. Babor, a top editor for Dr. Edwards's journal, now called Addiction, added, "He was the father of some of the major conceptual advances in this field."

James Griffith Edwards, who was known as Griff, was born on Oct. 3, 1928, in what is now the Uttar Pradesh state of India, where his father worked as a veterinary bacteriologist. The family moved back to England in 1929, and he received his early education from his mother.

He won a scholarship to Oxford and, after serving in the military, graduated from Balliol College in 1951 with a degree in animal physiology. He later added a master's degree and a medical degree and began his career as a lecturer in 1966 at London's Institute of Psychiatry at Maudsley Hospital. (The institute is now part of King's College London.) There he fell under the influence of the prominent addiction researcher David Lewis Davies.

By the time Dr. Edwards became a professor of addiction behavior at the institute, in 1979, he was a star in the emerging field of addiction medicine, having directed the institute's addiction research unit. In 1991, he helped establish England's National Addiction Center.

To the end of his long career, Dr. Edwards was part scientist and part missionary, writing hundreds of professional papers and contributing to more than 30 books. In recent years, he wrote two books for lay readers: "Alcohol the Ambiguous Molecule" (2000) and "Matters of Substance" (2004). He consulted regularly with governments and with the World Health Organization on policy making.

In addition to his wife, Dr. Edwards is survived by a son, Daniel, and a daughter, Rose, both from a previous marriage, and a granddaughter.

For all his work to reduce abuse, Dr. Edwards maintained a strong skepticism of prohibitive measures. He and his wife hosted salonlike events at their house in Greenwich that were known for more than the warm conversation.

"He was a real wine connoisseur, and there was always a cocktail before dinner," Dr. Babor said. "He was a strong believer in social drinking."

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the tip. Oh yes, do I have some comments and opinions on Griffith Edwards. He was a lying fraud who devoted his career to promoting the 12-Step cult religion and passing it off as a successful cure, and writing propaganda that declared that A.A. works. The New York Times obituary was a real white-wash and glorification of a fraud.

I have discussed Griffith Edwards several times before. Look here:

  1. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-effectiveness.html#Orford
    Doctors Orford and Edwards performed a big, expensive, year-long test of A.A. in England, and found that a whole year of a 12-Step-based treatment program was no more effective than having a doctor talk to the alcoholics for just one hour, telling them to quit drinking.

    The NY Times obituary mentions this clinical test, but neglects to mention the fact that Griffith Edwards then proceeded to ignore these test results and spend the rest of his life promoting the 12-Step quack treatment anyway.

  2. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters90.html#Griffith_Edwards
    Griffith Edwards' propaganda:
    Edwards conjectures, on the basis of available research, that "AA probably works, in some way or other, for not less than 50% of the troubled drinkers that make contact with it."

  3. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters144.html#Edwards
    Griffith Edwards' criticism of Stanton Peele's writings

  4. https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters302.html#Edwards
    Orford and Edwards appear to quote Vaillant

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants,
**     is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Wed, September 26, 2012 1:41 pm     (answered 4 October 2012)
From: "Peter Ferentzy"
Subject: good article (in my view)


Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

Hi again, Peter,

Yes, a very interesting article.

The first thing that caught my attention was the 60-year-old woman junkie. I thought, "If she hasn't quit by now, then she never will. Might as well just legally give her the stuff." It would save society money in the long run.

Harm reduction saves money, too. Not to mention the fact that it is the compassionate and Christian thing to do.

I agree with your statement:

"The politicians and other critics who oppose harm reduction are on the wrong side of history, and they will be judged harshly."

Unfortunately, I think that there will large stacks of bodies before public sentiment recognizes that the prohibition crusaders are barbaric, sort of like how we now look at the "noble, virtuous, Godly" witch-hunters of the Middle Ages. Alas, our current enlightened attitude towards witches doesn't bring the burned girls back to life.

Date: Thu, October 4, 2012 4:44 pm     (answered 8 October 2012)
From: "Peter Ferentzy"
Subject: RE: Web and Social Networking Positions open in Toronto

Unfortunately, I think that there will large stacks of bodies before public sentiment recognizes that the prohibition crusaders are barbaric, sort of like how we now look at the "noble, virtuous, Godly" witch-hunters of the Middle Ages. Alas, our current enlightened attitude towards witches doesn't bring the burned girls back to life.

Yes that's true. Im just hyped because we're gonna win. But sure, it would be nice if we didn't have to struggle against ignorance and malice. Yeah ... dead witches and dead junkies and etc.
Thanks for getting in touch.
ALl best
Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

Now that's a good positive attitude. Celebrate our eventual victory, rather than mourning our losses.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches
**     pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people
**     recovering their true sight, restore their government
**     to its true principles.  It is true that in the meantime
**     we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the
**     horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public
**     debt.
**         ==  Thomas Jefferson

Date: Wed, October 3, 2012 10:10 am
From: "Peter Ferentzy"
Subject: FW: Web and Social Networking Positions open in Toronto

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

From: [email protected]
Subject: Web and Social Networking Positions open in Toronto
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 11:50:28 -0400


Website Curator & Social Network Manager
Canadian Harm Reduction Network
Location — Toronto

Website Curator
Responsibilities —

  • to address and correct functional errors in the current Website and assist in updating current information on web pages
  • to develop new Website material, with Director's approval
  • to maintain and further develop the Website using the appropriate technologies that conform to international standards
  • to support the Director/staff in maintaining the Website and to develop the operational manual so that others can update the Website
  • to address problems as they arise
  • to advise on web hosting, mail server, mailing issues, etc.
Applicant must
  • be skilled in the most recent version of DRUPAL version of Drupal.
  • be skilled in web design, Photo Shop and Illustrator, Java Script, Flash, etc.
  • have some knowledge of harm reduction and an understanding of drug policy concerns, and be committed to position of the CHRN
  • be able to work with volunteers and to train others
  • show a flexible attitude and proven experience of working in a small team and with a restricted budget
  • have good communication skills and be attentive to detail
This is a part-time paid position, but funding is limited.
Applicant must have demonstrable experience in web design and site management.
References will be required.

Social Networking Manager
Responsibilities —

  • to work with the Director to facilitate a robust social networking presence
  • to develop and implement a social marketing strategy
  • to train others in social marketing programs and strategies
  • to participate in blog, facebook & twitter conversations with constituents in an informed and constructive manner
  • to advise on web hosting, mail server, mailing issues, etc.
Applicant must
  • have a grounding in harm reduction and an understanding of drug policy concerns, and be committed to position of the CHRN.
  • be able to work with volunteers and to train others
  • possess a flexible attitude and proven experience of working in a small team and with a restricted budget
  • have excellent communication skills and be attentive to detail
This is a part-time paid position, but funding is limited.
Applicant must have demonstrable experience in social media and skills in social marketing. References will be required.

To apply for either of these positions, please send your résumé, references and links to samples of your work to:
Walter Cavalieri
The Canadian Harm Reduction Network
[email protected]
Competition closes midnight, October 19, 2012
Please do not phone.

The Canadian Harm Reduction Network (CHRN) was founded in 2000, with a grant from the Drug Policy Foundation in the USA., with the aim of developing in Canada a network of harm reduction workers, agencies, organisations, individuals and groups of individuals, including people with current drug- use experience, for the purpose of exchanging information and providing mutual support. Our full statement of goals can be read on our home page: http://www.canadianharmreduction.com/.
This current project is supported by a grant from the MAC AIDS Fund.

This notice was sent to you by the Canadian Harm Reduction Network.
Please visit our Website and support us by becoming a member. Check us out on Facebook ...

Okay, good luck. It sure would be nice if American drug policies were as enlightened as those of Canada.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If a man love the labor of any trade, apart from any
**     question of success or fame, the Gods have called him.
**        ==  Robert Louis Stevenson

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Last updated 9 March 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters327.html