Letters, We Get Mail, CCLXXXVII

[The previous letter from Hagar is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Phyllis_F ]

Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:39 pm     (answered 5 February 2012)
From: the email address of "Hagar The Horrible"
Subject: Leave My Sponsee Alone

Dear Mr. Orange,

I want you to leave my sponsee alone and stop talking to him on your abomination of a website. I read his emails he sent to you and what you sent back and also what you said to someone else about him. Did you know he has a serious spiritual disorder and also one inside his head? He doesn't know any better than to write a fool like you. He's just a retard kid who is still very childish. He even thought I wouldn't know he wrote you if he used a fake name but I saw write through it. I read your letters all the time to warn people about how you will lead them into sin and back to the bottle. That kid is so lucky we got him in AA. His dad gave him a bottle of liquor and he brought it to school, or else he never would have got here. You can't lead him away from what is good for him. I also think it's depictable that you made fun of the creation museum where I took him. That kid needs a good guidance and God is the only way to go. You need to do all your steps before you tell people such horrible things and get my sponsee not to talk to me. Good thing it's easy to convince him to talk to me again after some convincing. You are exploiting a poor retard and sick in the head kid. You should be ashamed of yourself. Start doing all the steps, especially 4, 5, 9, and 10. AA is the only thing that's going to bring this world back to Jesus, and that's the truth. I hope you get saved and get back in AA.

Mrs. Phyllis F.

Hello Mrs. Phyllis F.,

You did not bother to say who your sponsee is. I see that your letter came from the email address of someone who calls himself "Hagar the Horrible". I can only assume that you must have hijacked his computer and used his computer and email address to send your letter.

You really have contempt for your sponsee, don't you? You say that your unfortunate sponsee is retarded and suffering from "a serious spiritual disorder and also one inside his head"? And how did you determine that? Are you a doctor? Are you a psychiatrist? Are you a priest? What qualifies you to treat "spiritual diseases"?

You say that the young fellow was given a bottle of alcohol by his father. That does not make him an alcoholic. What is he doing in A.A.?

Obviously, it is you who is "exploiting a poor retard and sick in the head kid."

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    And do you think that unto such as you
**    A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
**    God gave a secret, and denied it me?
**    Well, well — what matters it? Believe that too.
**       ==  The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
**           (Richard Le Gallienne translation)

Also see comments on this letter here.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 5:37 pm     (answered 5 February 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Yet More Random Comments

More and more, it seems like they make the computers last just long enough to get out of warranty, and then poof!

Yeah, no kidding. My netbook was actually still in warranty when it died, but Asus claimed that smoking and melting its own charger was, somehow, not covered under their warranty. I'm pretty sure said netbook died of the same thing that caused AM problems: a short in the power supply. And I never did anything particularly unusual with any of my systems, unless installing Linux counts as unusual. Which it definitely isn't, especially for the netbook. (Windows 7 Starter is easily one of the worst OSes I've ever used. It's pretty much a crippleware version of Windows 7 Home Premium.)

And the ones that worry me are not the German Neo-Nazis, it's the Americans. And not the ones who march around with Swaztika arm-bands. Those guys are just nutcases. The ones who worry me are the perfectly reasonable gentlement dressed in suits and ties who sell the Nazi philosophy under some other guise, like "therapy". Bill Wilson himself sold the Nazi idea that we do not even have the right to think for ourselves, that we should just obey the orders of a "Higher Power". Thinking for yourself is "playing God". And A.A. still pushes that idea today.

Indeed. I hope against all hope that I never, ever end up with a "therapist" like that. Hopefully, there's not a "Psychotic Depression Anonymous", but there probably is. Any good Stepper would find a way to blame it all on alcohol regardless, I suppose, despite the fact I've never had more than a few sips of booze in my entire life. And it would not be wise for me to start now, since I doubt alcohol would play nicely with my meds.

About the sex thing: I was just repeating the lecture that I got from my biology professor: "Possession of the XX or XY chromosome pair is the primary sexual characteristic. All of the other things that guys admire, like breasts, are just secondary sexual characteristics."

Of course there are some individuals with XXY chromosomes and other odd combinations, but they are very very rare. I remember the case of one XXY who made it into the Olympics, as a woman, and they had a big debate about whether she was a man or a woman. I seem to recall that they disqualified her because possession of the Y chromosome gave her manly musculature, and they considered that an unfair advantage in competing against other women.

I don't think that was the case with the girl who when autopsied by an incompetent coroner, was found to have a normal penis and testes. I think that the explanation was that the coroner either mixed up his papers, or examined the wrong cadaver, or didn't even actually examine any body, and just made up the whole thing.

Yeah, that is an accurate description of sex, but there's a lot of things that determine gender. There's evidence that transgendered individuals have the brain structure of the gender they identify as:

And while the unusual combinations are rare, there's enough people in the world that "very rare" still means thousands of people. I remember that Castor Semenya mess. I would argue it's more unusual for her to be athletic enough to qualify for the World Championships than it is for her to be XXY. There really needs to be a Trans- or Inter- Olympics.

No disagreement about the incompetent coroner, though. It's a wonder he graduated high school, since basic anatomy does get taught in middle school where I live.

As for the mudblup thing, all I managed to find was the reference to Teddy Ruxpin, so thanks for that explanation. They sound vaguely zombie-like.

Anyhow, I'm off to not attending a creation museum and trying to enjoy life as a temporary college drop-out. (I had to be put on additional meds, due to the "psychotic" aspect of my depression showing its ugly mug. That, and the "depression" part, too. Those textbooks were certainly an even bigger waste of money than usual.) Hopefully, I can at least get an entry-level job. If not, escapism time until Fall 2012.

Hello again, Meatbag,

Thanks for all of the input. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
**     I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have
**     finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.
**          —   Buckminster Fuller  (1895 — 1983)

[The previous letter from Danteris is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Danteris ]

Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:08 pm     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: danteris
Subject: Re:

oh so thats your solution mr orange someone elses opinion. back in the 1800's.its 2012 by the way i dont agree with the diesease theory. you wouldnt happen to be on disibility would ya?

Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 7:09 pm     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: danteris
Subject: Re:

oh ya you have a good day as well

Hello again, Danteris,

It isn't a matter of "just somebody's opinion". Careful medical tests have shown that A.A. is a failure, and any of the alternative ways of treating alcohol abuse produce a lower death rate.

If you want something that is really just somebody's opinion, try Bill Wilson's crazy opinion that Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion would cure alcoholism. Now that is sheer insanity. There is a very good reason why Bill Wilson was under the care of two psychiatrists — Dr. Harry Tiebout and Dr. Francis Weeks.

By the way, the claim that it's all "just somebody's opinion" is the propaganda trick called "Escape via Relativism". It's a lame attempt to dismiss information that you don't like by claiming that it's all just a matter of opinion, one opinion versus another opinion, and nothing is certain... Yes, some things are certain, like that A.A. is ineffective and just raises the death rate in alcoholics.

As a matter of fact, I receive a Veteran's Administration disability pension. Can you explain to me what that has to do with Alcoholics Anonymous or drug and alcohol rehabilitation? Does being a disabled veteran make someone less qualified to criticize A.A., or talk about recovery?

That is an example of the propaganda trick called "Ad Hominem, Launch Personal Attacks On Opponents" — don't talk about the issues, or debate the facts, just attack the speaker.

You have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*     I thank God that He chose to give me a working brain, rather
**    than just a lump of dense, unthinking meat between the ears.

[The previous letter from Mark_M is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Mark_M ]

Date: Tue, January 31, 2012 8:21 pm     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: "mark m."
Subject: RE: Inquire

Dear Orange,

Thanks for your reply. It at least shows me you are passionate. I find that comforting. I thank you for the essays. I really didn't understand what AA was about, but thanks to you and your experiences I think I do. This leads me to the crux of my initial contact. What does work for the apparently out of control drinker? I had a good friend die, another one is on the way, and I'm deeply concerned. AA is a very institutionalized organization now and is shoved down people's throats as you noted. I just thought that attitude was formed by those not wanting to try AA or resisting treatment altogether. Now I can see where they are coming from. What has been and is a successful road to recommend? I don't want to lose another friend to drugs and alcohol. I know the outcome of his life is his doing, but I'd sure hate to offer advice that may be harmful.


Hello again Mark,

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, the accusation that "you just don't want to get sober, and that's why you criticize A.A." is a common one. When I talk about the A.A. failure rate, they respond by claiming that "You just couldn't get sober in A.A.", or "You just don't want to get honest and work the Steps". Even when I had 10 years clean and sober, they were still saying the same things, like here:

By the way, I have 11 years clean and sober now, and I actually quit drinking two weeks before I was sent to A.A. by a so-called "treatment program". That is where I was shocked to learn that cult religion is the standard American treatment for drug and alcohol problems. And that's when I began collecting evidence against such insane treatment, and writing and speaking out.

About your friends — I'm sorry to hear about the death of a friend. I've lost many, too, especially since I began associating with what they euphemistically call "the recovery community".

Statistically, it's a coin toss whether somebody will quit his bad habits and recover, or never quit. Approximately 50% of all alcoholics eventually quit drinking, and the other half don't. And the situation with drug addicts is about the same. Many of the non-quitters die premature deaths from alcohol, tobacco, and drugs.

On the bright side, most of the 50% who do quit do it alone, without any "treatment" or "program". They just get sick and tired of being so sick and tired (like I did), and just quit.

Now the good news: Yes, there are several good things that can help. I wrote it all down before, so I'll point you to the lists of letters and discussions and pages:
How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day now, and good luck with your friends.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The number of drug overdose deaths has more than tripled in the US
**     since 1990. More than 100 people die of a drug overdose in the US
**     every day.  This increase was not caused by illegal street drugs
**     — the number of deaths from heroin overdose remains relatively
**     constant. The majority of drug overdose deaths in America today are
**     cause by prescription painkillers.  Sales of prescription painkillers
**     in the US have tripled since 1999 — paralleling the tripling
**     of drug overdose deaths.
**     == Project Lazarus, by Kenneth Anderson,
**        blogtalkradio.com, Thu, Jan 5, 2012

[The previous letter from Jordan_C is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Jordan_C ]

Date: Mon, January 30, 2012 8:57 pm     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: "Jordan C."
Subject: Did u know: Bill Wilson dropped AA to drop acid.

Do u have anything more than whats in the official aa book about Bill W.'s handing over the reigns of AA to "go to any lengths" for a Real spiritual experience by dosing his wife and friends on acid? ...

Hello again, Jordan,

Yes, I have several items of information about Wilson's LSD use.

But note that Bill Wilson did not quit A.A. to take LSD. He took the LSD while he was still in A.A., and that became a problem for the trustees, because Bill Wilson was using his office at the A.A. headquarters and official A.A. stationery to promote LSD use, so they asked him to knock it off. It was years later when Bill Wilson resigned from A.A.

  • First off, there is the "official book" PASS IT ON.
    'PASS IT ON': The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world     Authorship credited to 'anonymous'; actually written by A.A.W.S. staff
    Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS), New York, 1984.
    ISBN: 0-916856-12-7
    LC: HV5032 .W19P37x 1984
    LCCN: 84-072766
    Dewey: 362.29/286/O92
    'PASS IT ON' contains a whole chapter describing Bill Wilson's use of LSD. Bill Wilson's first trip was August 29, 1956, in Los Angeles. See PASS IT ON, pages 368 to 377.

  • My Name Is Bill; Bill Wilson — His Life And The Creation Of Alcoholics Anonymous     Susan Cheever
    Simon & Schuster, New York, London, Toronto, Sydney, 2004.
    ISBN: 0-7432-0154-X
    LC: HV5032.W19C44 2004
    Dewey: 362.292092—dc22 or B W11c 2004
    Susan Cheever, who was allowed to read the secret locked and sealed A.A. historical archives, talked about Bill Wilson's LSD distribution and experimentation: Bill Wilson and Helen Wynn had plans to establish an LSD research foundation. And Bill Wilson loved LSD.

  • Aldous Huxley talked about Bill Wilson experimenting with exotic drugs in "Letters of Aldous Huxley" edited by Grover Smith — adrenochrome at that time. Adrenochrome is an epinephrine derivative with hallucinogenic properties. This paragraph is in a letter that Huxley wrote to Dr. Humphry Osmond. Osmond, you will recall, was the researcher who supplied Wilson with LSD. The date was September 16, 1960.

    "Yesterday I lunched with Bill Wilson who spoke enthusiastically of his own experiences with leuco-adrenochrome and of the successful use of it on his ex-alcoholic neurotics. This really sounds like a break-through and I hope you are going ahead with clinical testing."

    The Huxley letter is here: orange-Huxley_letter.pdf

  • The Soul of Sponsorship: The Friendship of Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters     Robert Fitzgerald, S.J.
    Hazelden Pittman Archives Press, Center City, MN, 1995.
    ISBN: 1-56838-084-4
    Dewey: 362.29286 FITZGERA 1995
    It contains letters describing Bill's LSD usage — that is the subject of all of chapter 13.

  • Bill W. and Mr. Wilson — The Legend and Life of A.A.'s Cofounder     Matthew J. Raphael
    University of Massachusetts Press, Amherst, Mass., 2000.
    ISBN: 1-55849-245-3
    Dewey Call Number: B W11r 2000
    LC: HV5032 .W19 R36 2000
    It contains a bunch of surprises, like detailing Bill's sexual infidelities, his and Bob's spook sessions — talking to the 'spirits' in séances through the use of Ouija boards, spirit rapping, and channeling, LSD use, and publicity-hound megalomania.

  • Bill W. A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson     Francis Hartigan
    Thomas Dunne Books, An imprint of St. Martin's Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10010, 2000.
    ISBN: 0-312-20056-0
    Dewey: B W11h 2000
    Francis Hartigan was the personal secretary of Lois Wilson, Bill's wife. Hartigan also described Bill Wilson taking LSD.

  • Chemical Ecstasy: Psychedelic Drugs and Religion by Walter Houston Clark
    Sheed & Ward, New York, 1969.
    Page 101 says:

    "One of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous [Bill Wilson] described to me the transcendental experience he credits with giving him control over his compulsive drinking. Years later he took LSD five or six times. This, he said, reinstated his original ecstasy, and consequently he wishes that LSD were more available to alcoholics."

    Note: Bill took LSD for two years, not just 5 or 6 times.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could
**     touch and help only about five percent. The doctors started
**     giving them a dose of LSD, so that the resistance would be
**     broken down. And they had about fifteen percent recoveries."
**     === Nell Wing  —  PASS IT ON, page 370.
**     (Nell Wing was an early secretary of A.A. and Bill Wilson.)
**     Apparently, for treating alcoholics, LSD works three times
**     better than cult religion.

May 27, 2009, Wednesday:

Mallard Duck Mallard Duck

Mallard Drake
Mallard Drake

Great Blue Heron
Beethoven the Great Blue Heron, scratching

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Wed, February 1, 2012 5:25 pm     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: "Peter F."


Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

Hi again, Peter,

Thanks for the tip. Yes, I really like that. One line really stood out, and my mind was adding to it:

For a long time, we have believed that we should treat people good. Except for the exceptions — except for the Indians, except for the Blacks, except for the Jews, except for the Japanese, except for the Mexicans, except for the Hippies, except for the Gays, except for the drug addicts...

And there are more. At other times, it was the Irish, or the Polish, or the Catholics, or the Arabs, or... Yes, it sure is a long list, isn't it?

May we, as a species, rise above that.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Underage binge drinking occurs more frequently if child
**     maltreatment such as neglect, physical and sexual abuse
**     is experienced, U.S. researchers said.
**        ==  UPI, March. 4, 2009

Date: Tue, February 7, 2012 4:50 pm
From: "Peter F."
Subject: RE:

Yes, we really ought to rise above that stuff. I actually believe that we will.



Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Hugh_G ]

Date: Fri, February 3, 2012 10:08 am     (answered 6 February 2012)
From: "HUGH G."
Subject: Acceptance was the answer.


Thanks for the time and effort you put into the papers. I have read you for a few years and am amazed by the amount of research you have carried out.

I am in my 18th year of sobriety (no alcohol) and 8th year cigarette free. In my first 12 years of sobriety I must have attended about 3 thousand meetings, in the next 4 years some few dozen meetings and about 6 in the last two years. I am not planning to go to a meeting today.

If your ONLY complaint against A.A. was that a message is given to some members by some other members not to take medication prescribed by qualified medical personal (tradition 10 — long form), that should surely be enough for the relevant authorities to investigate when the inevitable deaths occur. If this was the only matter that you concerned yourself with it would be enough for you to be commended by any right thinking person.

What are your views on members being led to believe that they are victims and powerless at every turn. At many meetings the constant whine of " I am powerless over people places and things " is ever present and repeated and repeated and repeated......

The reading or saying that was guaranteed to irritate me the most is from one of the stories at the back of the Bigbook. 3rd edition — "Doctor Addict Alcoholic". Renamed as "Acceptance Was The Answer" in the 4th edition. Apparantly every person, place, thing or situation is exactly as it is meant to be as nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. If I cannot accept that war, violence, rape, racism, antisemintism, religious hatred, bankers greed, etc. etc. is part of some master plan, I am told that it is my fault. (And I may drink)

For many years I gave A.A. the credit for sobering me up when in effect I was 2 months sober before I attended A.A.

Obviously I went to so many meetings for so long because I was getting something out of it. I believe the most important thing I received was the one thing I always insisted was not that important — the fellowship of other people.

Thanks again

Hello Hugh,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments, and I have to agree on all of your points. And congratulations for being alcohol- and tobacco-free for so many years. It really feels good to be healthy, doesn't it?

That crazy dogma about helplessness and powerlessness is really harmful, isn't it? If I really believed that I was powerless over alcohol, how could I have ever quit drinking and stayed sober?

Unfortunately, some confused people really buy into those teachings that they are powerless, and come to believe that they are powerless, and then they end up powerless. Funny how that works.

And yes, I was also two weeks sober before I went to A.A. Quitting was a bitch because it took me a long time to build up the drive and the determination to quit and stay quit, but I wasn't powerless.

I agree that having a sober social circle can be a big help. That's one of the reasons that I am happy to see more and more of the other sobriety meetings getting established — like SMART, SOS, Lifering, WFS, and HAMS. (The whole list is here.) Having a group of people who are very understanding and supportive, and who won't teach a bunch of insane misinformation about alcohol and addiction, can be a real help to newly-sober people.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We are social beings.  We are absolutely hard-wired to fit in.
**     We don't want to be outsiders.  It causes neurological stress.
**       ==  M. Heffernin, "Willful Blindness"

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Meatbag2 ]

Date: Mon, February 6, 2012 7:05 pm     (answered 7 February 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Holy Motherfucking Shit

I just saw that Phyllis F. letter. That really needs to be displayed prominently on your site, because it pretty much is everything wrong with AA in a nutshell. I hope poor Hagar escapes that batty woman. And that he changes his email address.

Hi again, Meatbag,

Thanks for the comment. And I have to agree. That letter just displays so many characteristics of the worst of sponsorship relationships:

  1. The sponsor is a know-it-all and the sponsee is allegedly a "retard".
  2. The newcomer supposedly has a "spiritual disease".
  3. The sponsor claims to be qualified to diagnose and treat "spiritual diseases" and also other mental disorders.
  4. She imagines that A.A. has all of the answers and nobody else knows anything.
  5. She claims that only A.A. is entitled to speak to the sponsee, and the sponsee cannot talk to outsiders.
  6. The "spiritual, not-religious" A.A. program is supposedly going to lead the kid back to Jesus, which is "the only way".
  7. She claims that only wonderful A.A. will lead the people back to God and Jesus.
  8. She says that someone who disagrees with A.A. is a sinner who is trying to lead others to sin.
  9. A kid who got caught drinking alcohol once is supposedly an alcoholic who has to spend the rest of his life in A.A.
  10. She says that the kid was lucky to get shanghaied into A.A.
  11. The sponsor obviously "has a resentment".
  12. The sponsor is a domineering bully.


Well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*     If you wonder whether evil karma can be neutralized or not,
*     then know that it is neutralized by desire for goodness.
*     But they who knowingly do evil deeds, exchange a mouthful
*     of food for infamy. They who knowing not wither they
*     themselves are bound, yet presume to pose as guides for
*     others, do injury both to themselves and others. If pain
*     and sorrow ye desire sincerely to avoid, avoid, then, doing
*     harm to others.
*        — W.Y. Evans-Wentz, Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Meatbag3 ]

Date: Tue, February 7, 2012 3:34 pm     (answered 8 February 2012)
From: "Meatbag"
Subject: Re: Holy Motherfucking Shit

Even if Hagar actually is a "retard" (which I doubt), I've met people with developmental disabilities before. I shared a special education program in high school with people with developmental disabilities (before then, I attended a richer school district which separated their special ed program by disability type). They were pretty much normal teenagers in many ways. They certainly had their own opinions. They possessed basic reasoning abilities. Nobody needed to think for them. They needed support, not some domineering sponsor who denies them the slightest bit of privacy or any form of contact in the outside world. (In fact, those kids often did volunteering stuff and held jobs with the aid of the special ed teachers.)

Yeah, bringing booze to school is pretty much more "normal teenager did something dumb" than "alcoholic". There's no shortage of well-adjusted kids at my high school who got either kicked out or booted to the alternative school program for bringing drugs. At one point, the alternative school program was full, and I bet the majority of attendees fell in that category. Zero tolerance is fun. Incidentally, said high school is in the middle of the Bible Belt.

Hello again, Meatbag,

Yes, the whole situation is way overblown and wrong. Apparently, the kid got sentenced to A.A. meetings by the judge for bringing alcohol to school, and then this crazy manipulative woman decided that she was going to collect him as her slave and remake him in her image. And I notice that the judge is responsible for handing a defenseless kid to a fundamentalist cult religion for indoctrination and conversion, which is blatantly illegal and unConstitutional.

When I sent my response to her letter, it bounced with the message:

From: [email protected]
Subject: failure notice
Date: Tue, February 7, 2012 4:43 pm
To: [email protected]

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at outbound-ss-923.bluehost.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<[email protected] </3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php?send_to=hthehorrible%40yahoo.com>>: failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 554 delivery error: dd This user doesn't have a yahoo.com account
([email protected] </3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php?send_to=hthehorrible%40yahoo.com>) [-5] - mta1193.mail.mud.yahoo.com

--- Enclosed are the original headers of the message.

To Mrs. Phyllis F.: Re: Leave My Sponsee Alone
Size: 1.7 k
Type: message/rfc822
From: Unknown sender


So she has cancelled his email account at Yahoo to cut his line of communications and keep him from communicating with me or anybody else like me.

That is also typical cult behavior — isolation of the new victims for more intense brainwashing. Dr. Robert J. Lifton called it Milieu Control.

And this kind of abusive behavior is passed off as "drug and alcohol rehabilitation". Only in America.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser,
**     in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness.
**     Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment."
**        —  Charles Bufe

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Terry_V ]

Date: Sun, February 5, 2012 11:29 am     (answered 7 February 2012)
From: "Terry V."
Subject: Your Site


I love your site. Thanks for all your hard work and dedication. I'll be reading it for some time to come. It should certainly help me keep an upbeat attitude as I persevere in my court ordered AA/NA meetings. It's been a long time since I've been to one. I didn't like them then, and I don't like them now. I've been to one AA and one NA in the last week. AA has not changed one bit. NA has seemed to change just a little and given a choice I would do NA over AA. Maybe it's their more rebellious nature that I prefer. As for the 12 steps — Fuck the 12 steps. The only point to AA I can even imagine is, initial crisis and subsequent reality check. Once you've got your bearings and orientation, get the hell out as fast as you can before you're assimilated and lose your sanity.



Hello Terry,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

Did you know that it is now illegal to force people into A.A. or N.A.? They have to give you other choices, like SMART, or you can sue them. Yes, you can actually sue a judge or parole officer or probation officer for not giving you a choice. They cannot legally force a cult religion routine on you. Look here: the Inouye v. Kemna case.

Now I know that law gets broken every day. Plenty of law enforcement people ignore the law and do whatever they wish to do. And you can sue them for it later.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is doing it,
**     and right is right, even if nobody is doing it."
**       ==  Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters288.html#Terry_V2 ]

Date: Tue, February 7, 2012 9:36 pm     (answered 13 November 2011)
From: "Terry V."
Subject: RE: Your Site

Hi Orange,

Thanks, I know about the cases and all. For now, I don't have the energy to make a Federal Case out of it, nor do I want to attract attention to myself in my small city (I got my DUI out of state and would have to sue my local treatment counselor as well as the judge). I suggested SMART to my lawyer, but he said, no way would any judge go for online meetings as they could be faked. Yea whatever, how naive. Don't they realize the paper signed at a meeting is easier to fake than an electronic document? Well, I could fake an electronic document, but it's more of a hassle.

The 12 steps are a complete waste of time. I've quit a number of things at various junctures in my life, tobacco, demerol/morphine, meth... You know what? I did it myself, no steps, no treatment. Just the realization that I can do this! There is no higher power other than to just do it!

Have a good one, c'Ya 'round.


Hello Terry,

Okay. Some times, we just have to accept things as they are, and work through it. This sounds like one of those times for you. Obviously, you aren't going to get brainwashed into their bull because you already know too much.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less reasonable a cult is, the more men seek to establish it by force.
**         —  Jean Jacques Rousseau

May 27, 2009, Wednesday, Downtown Portland, Waterfront Park:

Beethoven the Great Blue Heron
Beethoven the Great Blue Heron

Beethoven the Great Blue Heron
Beethoven the Great Blue Heron

Beethoven the Great Blue Heron
Beethoven the Great Blue Heron

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Captain_Britain ]

Date: Sun, February 5, 2012 4:52 am     (answered 8 February 2012)
From: "Captain Britain"
Subject: hi

hi again terrence just wanted to say thanks again for helping me to see the light .

I just wanted to say the NRL is alive and growing here in england i have had three sucesses so far ive had a few threats and my front door daubed with paint ,it made me laugh it seems the colour of AA is yellow lol keep it up dude , i may at some time visit you or if not i may have the funds for you to visit england .

i love what you have done terrence god bless you love captain britain ..

Hello again, Captain Britain,

I'm glad to hear that you and the NRL are doing well.

England would be fun. I've only been in England one time in my life, in 1962, for only two hours, and I wasn't allowed out of Heathrow Airport. We were just transferring from one airplane to another. My big experience of England was hearing a woman with a beautiful English accent making announcements on the public address speakers.

We were traveling to Germany, where we would spend the next three years (which I loved). My father was in the Air Force, and I was a teenager at the time, and we were transferred to Germany.

Unfortunately, they insist that the travel be so efficient. I mean, there we were, in England, and could not even dawdle and goof around and see the place for a week before getting on another airplane and continuing on to Germany. Just two lousy hours in the airport. What a waste of travel money. I mean, if you are going to pay for an airplane ticket to go someplace on the other side of the world, at least see the place. Geez.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French;
**  I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their
**  language."
**    ==  Mark Twain

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Lex_Economidis ]

Date: Fri, February 3, 2012 8:21 pm     (answered 8 February 2012)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: New message from Lex Economidis

Just making sure you had this particular tidbit. I read this last year, but don't think I did more than mention it at ST. You know more about Aspen Education than I do, I'm sure. Its parent company is owned by Bain Capital, founded in 1997 when Mitt was still at the helm. I can't find on Wikipedia where I originally saw it, but it's there. Also here:


Just something I figured I would mention, not that that will derail Romney any worse than his claims of being an unemployed guy who isn't concerned about the poor, but it's still there.

Hello Lex,

Thanks for the input. I knew about some of that stuff, like the history of Straight, and the political connections between funding of the teen abuse industry and some Republican donors, but this is even more detailed.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Education of children has little to do with educating them
**     but a lot to do with getting them to conform.
**       ==  frankiepoo

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Steve_S ]

Date: Mon, February 6, 2012 11:16 pm     (answered 8 February 2012)
From: "Steve S."
Subject: AA


From Day 1, in that smoke filled room of people who were happy joyous and free... from the 10 year sober man who dissed Jesus... my skin crawls.

What is your background if you don't mind... it does not require a discourse... just one sentence or too. I will say more ...for a little knowledge is dangerous... drink deep from the Permian Well...

Thank you sincerely

Hello Stephen,

Thanks for the comments and the question. I can easily give you a lot more than one sentence, because I've been asked that question many times before, and already wrote down all of the answers. Look here: Who are you?.

By the way, my name is Terrance Hodgins and I live in rural Oregon.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The connection between Oscar Wilde, Ernest Hemingway, Picasso,
**     Van Gogh, Toulouse-Lautrec, Degas, Manet, Strindberg, Baudelaire,
**     Rimbaud, Verlaine and Kylie Minogue is Absinthe.
**     The Great Binge (1870-1914) is a period in history given by
**     social historians, due to Absinthe in Europe and other dangerous
**     drugs such as heroin being commercially available. Heroin is
**     a brand name.
**      == Steven Fry, the BBC TV show Q. I.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters287.html#Mike_H ]

Date: Tue, February 7, 2012 10:01 am     (answered 13 February 2012)
From: Mike H.
Subject: AA staff compensation

Greetings —

I was doing some research on trying to find out the compensation of staff at AA GSO in New York, and ran across your email address. Sounds like you're a good watchdog on this matter.

In any event, I have emailed an inquiry to the main AA office but don't expect an answer anytime soon, if at all. Is it possible for you to provide me with how much the "Very Rev." Ward Ewing makes? as well as other top staff?

Thank you.

Mike H.
Traverse City, Michigan

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the letter and the question. It will be interesting to see what kind of a response you get to your question. Please let me know if you get anything.

I don't think I have any current information on the new leader of A.A., Rev. Ward Ewing, but I know about the previous leader, Greg Muth. He was getting a total of $250,000 per year. He was getting $125,000 per year for being the General Manager of AAWS and also $125,000 for being the leader of the GSO. Not a bad job, $125,000 per year for working four hours a day (twice). And his lawyer friend Thomas Jasper got $469,850 for a going-away present (which some observers complain has never been adequately explained).

This link will lead you to a whole bunch of information on A.A. finances, including copies of their Form 990 filings with the IRS. Those documents require them to list the salaries of the leaders.


You have reminded me that it is time to go looking for Form 990s for 2009 and 2010, so I shall go looking. There are a couple of good places to find them, including Guidestar, which is a rating service for non-profits and charities.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When it is a question of money, everyone is of the same religion.
**        ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)

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Last updated 25 October 2014.
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