Letters, We Get Mail, CCLVIII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Ben_N ]

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 10:14 am     (answered 24 August 2011)
From: "Ben N."
Subject: Cannon Beach

Hi Orange

A friend just sent me an e-mail of the sand sculptures at Cannon Beach. A quick look on Google maps ahowed me it's just up the road from you. Have you seen it? Some amazing sculptures.

One caught my eye (attached). Have you been moonlighting as a sand sculpture model?...lol

No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.

sand sculpture

Hello Ben,

Thanks for the note. Alas, I haven't been to Cannon Beach in over 30 years now. I used to live down that way, in Coos Bay, but that was a long, long time ago.

Now, Cannon Beach is actually quite far away when you are riding a bicycle. But Portland has an annual event, "Sand in the City", that is also very impressive. They fill up Pioneer Courthouse Square with sand and do the same thing. Teams of sand sculptors work all day to produce such things.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I like nonsense — it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a
**     necessary ingredient in living. It's a way of looking at life through
**     the wrong end of a telescope... and that enables you to laugh at all of
**     life's realities."
**        ==  Dr. Seuss

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Wendy_N ]

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 8:08 am     (answered 24 August 2011)
From: "Wendy N."

Hi Orange.

I wrote to you a few months back, and have since read most of the letters. Before I got to your site, I was entrenched in AA, in the belief it's AA or drink-and-die. What blew me out of the water, was what you had to say about Bill Wilson being a 13th stepper, a sexual predator in AA.

That alone, is what has caused me so much pain, and confusion. A lot of the pain is a sense of betrayal. And, I got a lot of pain when trying to talk to AA friends about it. Either 'I don't believe it' or 'well, Bill was human. YOU are...resentful, judgemental, angry, bitter.' take your pick.

These responses really upset me. It's like my incestuous family all over again. And, these are responses from WOMEN.

One guy just dismissed you completely as 'some anti AA nut'. When I was telling this guy about Bill, his sexual behaviour, and how it discredits the steps, he said 'god wrote the steps.' Excuse me?

I have a few people i really like, one is in aa, and I haven't told them about any of this, because i couldn't bear any more of the same denials, minimisations, and accusations.

I've read your letters, and am horrified by how many AA true believers say of Bill 'well, he was human. so what?'

I've been to meetings since finding out, but I feel such sickness in my gut, when people go on about the steps, and the Big Book, and 'the program.'

I've tried a few Smart meetings. I just don't want yet another way of analysing things, and yet another person telling me how to live my life.

Since I was 23, and first went for counseling and AA, I've been told how to live. I miss the fellowship, but it was a kind of false sense of connection. By that, I mean that people in AA left me alone. I would get asked to share a lot, because there's less women than men. I'd feel some sense of connection by listening and sharing, and yet no one would come up to me afterwards, and I'd go home alone. I don't know why it was so hard to mix and mingle.

In 1987, I had a mental breakdown after a very abusive drug and alcohol rehab. (not 12 step based.) This, after the sexual abuse by a drug and alcohol counselor. Plus abuse and trauma growing up. So, in 1987 I went back to AA, and was extremely traumatised. I got the message about medication being wrong. At 2 years sober, I was very skinny (too disturbed to eat), and quite psychotic. I was hospitalised, and put on medication for the first time. I was reluctant at first, but it brought my anxiety levels down from 'through the roof'.

I've been on medication ever since, anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Is this why i get left alone? some people say AA is 'loving and supportive' but I don't have that experience at all. since i came back from a bust 5 years ago, I've been left alone. except for one woman, that is, in 5 years, who offered support. It's like there's a big moat around me.

Going back to the 80's and 90's, I was hospitalised a lot. One time, a memory landed me in the acute ward of a public psychiatric hospital. I went to the AA meeting on the grounds. They asked me to share, so I said where i was and that I was having a really hard time. well, no one came up to me after the meeting. That really hurt at the time.

I was left alone a lot, since '87, and got away from AA altogether. I heard a rumour that i was drinking. I stayed sober on my own for four years. Went back to meetings, and eventually drank again. It's no big deal, but in AA it's a huge deal. I feel that for the rest of my life, I'll be 'one of those that kept relapsing'. One of THOSE.

Just a few things. You get lots of letters where true believers say that they don't think AA is the only way to stay sober. I don't believe them. I think there's a lot of 'It's AA or drink-and-die or go crazy.'

Another thing they say is that the 12 steps are only suggestions. No, they're not. There is huge pressure to 'do the steps.' Huge! That's why I never talked about them from the floor.

I'm thoroughly disgusted about 13th stepping. I was 13th stepped by my drug and alcohol counselor, who was sober in AA. He was in his 60's and i was 26. It did a great deal of harm. The day he left my flat after doing the deed, I sat on my bed in a state of shock for several hours. Shortly after that, I went on an all-out binge, planning never to try and recover again. I lasted 6 weeks, and nearly attempted suicide. That's when I ended up in detox, and at the crazy drug and alcohol rehab.

If anything, I want to stay sober so that no one can control and abuse me anymore. Bill Wilson's got nothing to say to me about how to live!!! I had an uncomfortable talk with my sponsor. She used to be mostly pretty good. Didn't go on about the steps. But, with this Bill Wilson thing, we've parted ways.

Take care. W.

Hello Wendy,

Thank you for the letter and a moving story. I'm sorry about all of the suffering that you have been going through. The health-care system has failed you badly. But I'm glad to hear that you are doing better now.

The way that the Steppers reject you when you mention parts of the A.A. history that they don't want to hear about is really typical of cults.

  • First they deny it and insist that it's wrong, and you are misinformed.
  • Then they minimize and deny and say that it's no big deal.
  • Then they attack you and call you evil and subversive and up to no good, and say that you are crazy to even think such a thing.
  • Then they cease communication and run away.

And that is common to most all cults, too, not just A.A. You can get the same routine from the Scientologists or the Moonies if you tell them the ugly truths about their cult and their founder. When you criticize Scientology, the Scientologists will start loudly screaming "What are your crimes?!" at you, as if you must be guilty of horrible crimes to want to say something bad about Scientology.

This is nothing new. Dr. Jeffrey Schaler described it so well quite a while ago:

Cult Busting:

One way of testing the cult nature of a group is by challenging the ideology binding the group together. We can discover something about the nature of a group by how well its members tolerate opposition to the ideology that holds the group together. How well do members tolerate difference of opinion, opinion that challenges the very ideological heart of the group?

Members of the cult are like a colony of insects when disturbed. A frenzy of activity and protective measures are executed when core ideologies are challenged. The stronger the evidence challenging the truthfulness of the group ideology, the more likely members of the cult are to either lash out in a more or less predictable fashion, fall apart, or disband into separate cult colonies.

Oh well, have a good day now.

By the way, I just reprinted the list of other groups and forums where you might find some kindred spirits and comfort, and non-judgemental friendship, here.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Richard_H ]

Date: Mon, August 22, 2011 8:01 pm     (answered 24 August 2011)
From: "Richard H."
Subject: A.A.

Im early in sobriety an AA has work for me I don't know how or why but it does please open your mind to the ideal it helps people and remember Bill W was a drunk a lair a cheat and a their like the rest of us but we sober 1 day at a time

Hello Richard,

Thank you for the letter. Congratulations on your sobriety. I'm glad to hear that you are abstaining from drinking alcohol. You did it, and you are continuing to do it. Nobody and nothing is doing it for you. Congratulations. Well done.

I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out. Doing the practices of an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties does not make people quit drinking.

When you say that you don't know how it works, that means that it doesn't really work. When it is impossible to explain how Action A could cause Event B, the most likely answer is that there is no connection between the two things. Like the rooster crowing does not really make the sun rise. And attending meetings of an old cult religion and confessing your sins doesn't really make alcoholics quit drinking.

What really makes alcoholics quit drinking is that they just get sick and tired of being so sick and tired, and they decide to stop doing it, and then they do quit. A.A. has nothing to do with it. A.A. just steals the credit for the people who were going to quit anyway.

Worst, A.A. is downright harmful, increasing binge drinking, and increasing the death rate. We just discussed that in a previous letter, so I'll just point you to it here.

Have a good ay now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  This battle never ceases to amaze me. People seem to be much
**  more inclined to believe what they hear from non-experts
**  because it's what they'd rather hear.
**     ==  Prof. Jennifer Francis, of Rutgers University,
**            speaking about global warming
**         New York Times, Dot Earth, "Experts: Big Flaw in
**           Will's Ice Assertions", 27 Feb 2009
**  (And "recovery" seems to have the same problem.)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 5:55 am     (answered 24 August 2011)
From: Bob_O
Subject: How to stay stopped

Mister T,

I heard this many years ago and it recently came to mind. I may not have it correct and you may refine it. "I stopped drinking and went to AA meetings. Soon I started drinking again. I stopped drinking again and went to AA meetings again and I started drinking again. This happened repeatedly. Finally at an AA meeting I was told if you keep doing what you have been doing you will continue to drink.... so I stopped going to AA meetings."

Thank you for all you do.

Long Island Bob O.

Hello Bob,

Thanks for the note. Yes, I quite agree. It's kind of amazing how A.A. can yammer about "rigorous honesty", and how "Insanity is doing the same thing again and again, and expecting different results," and then they refuse to see that many A.A. members just relapse repeatedly, and A.A. isn't working for them.

Well, the phobia induction is part of it. Some A.A. members panic at the slightest hint of the thought that A.A. doesn't really work. They think, "Oh no, I'll die drunk in a gutter without A.A.! A.A. must work."

So they quickly suppress the thought and return to their comforting fairy tale where the Fairy Godmother will wave her magic wand and make everything okay.

Ooops! I mean "Higher Power" will wave His magic wand...

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     And then Cinderella's Fairy Godmother visited the A.A. meeting,
**     and waved her magic wand, and Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo!,
**     they all quit drinking.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Christopher_M ]

Date: Mon, August 22, 2011 6:04 pm     (answered 23 August 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Christopher M. shared a link on your Wall.

Disconcerting to say the least.

A Radical New Definition of Addiction Creates a Big Storm | Drugs


A sweeping new definition of addiction stakes out controversial positions that many, including the powerful psychiatric lobby, are likely to argue with.

Thanks for the tip. I just had to post a comment.

ASAM — the American Society for Addiction Medicine, was founded by Dr. Ruth Fox in order to promote the Alcoholics Anonymous quack cure for alcoholism. Dr. Fox liked to torture alcoholics by giving them antabuse and then making them drink alcohol. She insisted that all detoxing alcoholics had to get this treatment, even after she nearly killed a couple of them. Dr. Ruth Fox also liked to give alcoholics LSD because it made them more compliant.

The most recent president of ASAM was Dr. G. Douglas Talbott, who ran the Talbott-Marsh Treatment Center in Atlanta, Georgia. Dr. Talbott was sued out of the business for false imprisonment and false diagnosis of a doctor who was not an alcoholic.

In May, 1999, just after Talbott stepped down as president of ASAM, a jury awarded Dr. Leonard Masters, of Jacksonville Florida, a judgment of $1.3 million against Talbott, his daughter-in-law Morrison, and other Talbott associates for malpractice, fraud, and false imprisonment, based on Masters' stay with Talbott in 1994. Testifying at Masters' trial that he was not in fact alcohol dependent, as he had been diagnosed by Talbott et al., was Anne Geller, the president of ASAM prior to Talbott. Talbott's attorneys quickly settled with the plaintiff before the jury decided on punitive damages against Talbott and his colleagues (an amount which is usually a multiple of the compensatory damages that had already been awarded).

Despite this legal setback, Talbott has faced no professional repercussions. Indeed, the ASAM has neglected to discuss the case at all in the year since the Masters' decision in its newsletter or at its Web site. And ASAM and Talbott continue to bask in their roles as the premier medical advocates for and caretakers of addicted individuals.

What you will not get from the news reports is that the judge was so impressed with Talbott's ability to intimidate those who testified against him that:

  1. No witnesses were sworn in by name! Witnesses were introduced as "the doctor from Pennsylvania" or the "veterinarian from North Carolina"! Thats all... no name. Sometimes the doctor's wives got to testify to confirm the threats made to the families.
  2. After the trial the trial transcripts were "sealed". Perhaps to protect the witnesses, but this move, unfortunately, also protects the public from ever knowing the abuses that the witnesses spelled out to the jury.

Talbott also has a bad track record for driving his patients — other doctors and nurses — to suicide.

That is the kind of organization that we are talking about here.

Oh, and ASAM still has not condemned Dr. Talbott or his practices.

Now ASAM thinks they are going to define addiction?

Christopher: "I just looked it up. Good work! The question is — will the APA be bullied into reflecting this in the DSM? One would hope not. Science — not emotion!"

I really hope not too. It looks like such a naked grab for more money. If the definition of addiction expands, and the patients have a disease over which they have no control, then obviously those poor slobs need more expensive treatment that will get paid for by the government or HMO or somebody...

Have a good day now.

== Orange

Christopher: "Yup — seems like money is the driving factor in all health care. While troublesome in the other areas — adding money to quackery while promising a solution — well — there's your suicide rate right there. Keep at it. Unfortunately for this cause — many of our countrymen and women prefer ignorant bliss, emotion, and anecdote, over science and fact."

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "I have sworn, before the altar of God, eternal hostility
**      against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
**        ==  Thomas Jefferson, from a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, 1800

P.S. The ASAM article is also being discussed here:

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

Carmen the Canada Goose gosling and her family
Carmen the Canada Goose gosling and her family
Carmen is the smaller gosling on the left. You can see how her two brothers are bulking up and getting larger than her. The mother is the adult on the left; the father is on the right.
[More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Brandon_D is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Brandon_D ]

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 3:01 pm     (answered 25 August 2011)
From: "Brandon D."
Subject: Re: re "big book" of AA

Thoughtful stuff to be sure, I am aware the program was pirated from the oxford group. I am also aware that alcohol is only mentioned in the first step. Basically, AA postulates that spirituality is the fix for the emotional problems that caused alcoholics to obsess about drinking, so they took someone else's spiritual boot camp. I personally don't believe in a traditional Christian God, and neither do most of the people I know.

However I do think the 7 deadly sins are indeed the cause of some trouble. They are separate from other sins because they are simply forms of selfishness — they are not deadly at all despite their name. The "deadly" part is a misnomer. They are also not unique to Christianity; Buddhists and Muslims also share the idea that these pursuits are harmlful. I have to check about Hindus.

I definitely think its desirable to be hard working, unselfish, humble, etc. Those are the qualities I admired in my grandparents. they used to call t character.

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 3:08 pm     (answered 25 August 2011)
From: "Brandon D."
Subject: Re: re "big book" of AA

I didn't however, notice some of those contradictions you pointed out in the literature. There is definitely some questionable language used in the literature, that's a fact. I didn't notice how rigid some of those concepts were stated to be since the book repeatedly says they are not rigid. Odd contradiction. I can say with certainty that I don't find the practice to be rigid at all, many people just do whatever they want.

Hello again, Brandon,

About the Seven Deadly Sins: Yes, The Oxford Group assumed that drinking alcohol was a sin, and so was most everything else too, like smoking a cigarette, or wearing make-up, or having sex, or being poor. And Bill Wilson just copied their religion, lock, stock, and barrel. That's why Step Four is a moral inventory. And that's why Bill Wilson raved about the Seven Deadly Sins in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.

Alas, there is not a shred of evidence to support such crazy beliefs. Even common sense and a little observation of the human race will tell you that sex and sloth and gluttony do not lead to alcoholism. They may lead to obesity, but not alcoholism.

"Selfishness" is also not the cause of alcoholism. Now selfishness plays a part in it, I'm sure, but still, the real causes of alcoholism are things like mental illness, child abuse, emotional damage, chronic stress, chronic pain from other illnesses, malnutrition, and even the pain from how cigarette smoking is killing you. Attacking "selfishness" as the prime villian in alcoholism is just flat-out insane. But Bill Wilson was having his fun, putting alcoholics down again.

(Haven't you noticed how Bill Wilson hated alcoholics, and constantly slandered them? While A.A. says that they want to reduce the stigma of alcoholism, they actually work to increase the stigma. That's another bait-and-switch trick.)

A reality check shows that A.A. just does not work as a cure for alcoholism or any other addictions. Neither the Oxford Group nor Alcoholics Anonymous have been at all successful in getting alcoholics to quit drinking by using such a moralistic approach. Bill Wilson's entire business venture of selling the Oxford Group religion as a cure for alcoholism was a failure. Well, it was a failure as a cure for alcoholism, but it was quite profitable for Bill Wilson. (And it is still very profitable for the treatment centers today.)

— Which leads to hypocrisy. While Bill Wilson was ranting and raving about how selfish all of those alcoholics were, he stole all of the A.A. money for himself. (As well as the copyright on the Big Book, and the women, and the glory, and the fame, and the credit.)

And hypocrisy isn't one of the Seven Deadly Sins, either. Neither is theft. Nor is lying. Nor is hatred. As a moral code, the Seven Deadly Sins are a failure. The Seven Deadly Sins are really just an attack on some human emotions. Yes, other religions also criticize things like selfishness and sloth and gluttony, but that does not mean that the Seven Deadly Sins are an okay standard, or that they cause alcoholism.

And Bill Wilson's sermon about how pride leads to alcoholism is the ravings of a certified lunatic.

About the rigidity: You noticed that people were not following the rigid rules, they were just doing whatever they wanted to do. Yes. And that discredits the entire A.A. program. If people can just quit drinking by doing whatever they want to do, instead of following Bill Wilson's rules, why do A.A. recruiters continue to tell the newcomers that they must follow the A.A. program exactly or they will die? Why continue to claim that the 12 Steps work as a cure for alcoholism when most A.A. members just do whatever they want to do?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie,
**     Which we ascribe to heaven.
**       ==  William Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well, (1602-03), 1.1.231

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Darren_O ]

From: "Facebook"
Subject: Darren T O. shared a link on your Wall.
Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 4:17 pm     (answered 24 June 2011)

The American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) is classing addictions as a brain disorder and disease. They claim years of research and scores of medical experts who back the claim of the disease model of addiction. Who is the ASAM really? Who are all these experts and where are the results of their findings published?

A curious mind wants to know.

Check it out

Addiction Has A New Definition — It Is A Disease, Not Just Bad Choices Or Behaviors

Addiction is a chronic brain disorder, and not merely a behavioral problem or simply the result of taking the wrong choices, according to the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM),

Date: Tue, August 23, 2011 5:05 pm
Darren T O. commented on his link.

Hi Orange,

"Fodder for thought, this is directly lifted from the ASAM website;

Short Definition of Addiction

Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors.

Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one's behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.

-Just another AA front group propping itself up to appear official and medically relevant."

Hi again, Darren,

Thanks for the link. And I agree. Just another A.A. front group selling quackery. And ASAM is an organization with a terrible reputation. We have also been discussing ASAM and its "report" in another letter, here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

[The previous letter from Roxanne_B is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Roxanne_B ]

Date: Wed, August 24, 2011 6:06 am     (answered 25 August 2011)
From: Rox
Subject: Re:

All I see are a lot of people cutting down AA and NA. I want to know if you have something better that I can use? I do not have time to read pages and pages of slams.

Hello again, Roxanne,

Yes, the short answer is here: How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The preservation of health is a duty. Few seem conscious
**     that there is such a thing as physical morality.
**         ==  Herbert Spencer, Education

May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

Carmen the Canada Goose gosling
Carmen the Canada Goose gosling and her family
Carmen is the gosling in the foreground, closest to the camera. They are eating bread. The adult is the mother. She has her mouth open like that because she is asking for more bread.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#Jeff ]

Date: Fri, August 26, 2011 10:48 am     (answered 27 August 2011)
From: "Jeff in Napa"

Great stuff.... Thank's..

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     My English teacher taught me, "I before E, except after C."
**     But what about all of the weird words like veiled, unveil,
**     rein, weigh, weight, height, their, leisure, heir, heirloom,
**     either, reinvest, alzheimer's, sovereign, being, agreeing,
**     seize, protein, atheists, freight, foreign, Frankenstein,
**     and weird.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#John_McC ]

Date: Fri, August 26, 2011 1:09 pm     (answered 27 August 2011)
From: "John McC."
Subject: ASAM, NIDA, and "Disease" definition

NIDA appears to be as big a proponent of the "addiction as a disease" theory, with a Dr. Nora Valkow of NIDA (who is in the 2007 HBO "Addiction" documentary series). There is all this screaming about "addiction is a "brain disease", but I have yet to hear ANY MD at ANY level state: a.) here is the medically accepted definition of what "disease" is (something that is taught in medical school for example!), and b.) here is HOW "addiction" meets the "disease definition" criteria!

WHEN will THAT ever occur?

John McC.

Hi John,

Thanks for the letter. You make some really valid points there. The medical research that shows that addiction is a "brain disease", rather than a poor lifestyle choice, is zero. At least, I haven't heard of any either, and I've been looking for a long time now. And I've invited people, especially Steppers who believe in the disease theory, to send me what they have. And I got nothing.

I get the same old repeated propaganda about how Dr. Silkworth said that it's "a disease" — "a compulsion combined with an allergy" — which is not the definition of a disease. And I get the token doctors who are promoters of the 12-Step cure parroting the same old slogans and the standard party line, but I've never seen anything resembling valid medical information that shows that "alcoholism" is a "disease". No real research, no clinical tests, nothing.

It sure is a strange situation. Imagine if we treated cancer by citing the holy book of a religious cult from the nineteen-thirties.

I'll have to investigate Dr. Valkow further. Thanks for the tip.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of addiction, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.
**     The fact that it is difficult to break established bad habits
**     does not mean that those bad habits are diseases.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#SJL ]

Date: Mon, August 22, 2011 8:32 pm     (answered 30 August 2011)
From: "SJ L."
Subject: The Hitler myth of the Big Lie

I looked for this in my copy of Mein Kampf and the one on Hitler.org and it does not exist. Where did you find this? I suspect you have been taken in by the Zionist propaganda.



"The greatness of the lie is always a certain factor in being believed; at the bottom of their hearts, the great masses of a people are more likely to be misled than to be consciously and deliberately bad, and in the primitive simplicity of their minds, they are more easily victimized by a large than by a small lie.... Some part of even the boldest lie is sure to stick."

The greatness of the lie is always a certain factor site:hitler.org

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+greatness+of+the+lie+is+always+a+certain+factor+ site%3Ahitler.org&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMY_enUS338US339&num=10&lr=&ft=i& cr=&safe=off&tbs=


In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote:

But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall [of Germany in WWI] precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice. All this was inspired by the principle — which is quite true in itself — that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper stata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.

From time immemorial, however, the Jews have known better than any others how falsehood and calumny can be exploited. Is not their very existence founded on one great lie, namely, that they are a religious community, whereas in reality they are a race? And what a race! One of the greatest thinkers that mankind has produced has branded the Jews for all time with a statement which is profoundly and exactly true. He (Schopenhauer) called the Jew "The Great Master of Lies." Those who do not realize the truth of that statement, or do not wish to believe it, will never be able to lend a hand in helping Truth to prevail.

Clearly, Hitler is not advocating the use of the "Big Lie," and, far from creating it, he in fact is ascribing the "Big Lie" technique to the Jews and Marxists. The "Big Lie" technique is Hitler's in the same fashion that Halley's Comet is Halley's — not because either man was the inventor, but rather because he was the discoverer.

Hello SJL,

What we have here is merely a matter of a different translator. You can find this Hitler quote from Mein Kampf at a dozen places on the Internet:

"The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, because the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them more easy victims of a big lie than a small one, because they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell big ones. Such a form of lying would never enter their heads. They would never credit others with the possibility of such great impudence as the complete reversal of facts. Even explanations would long leave them in doubt and hesitation, and any trifling reason would dispose them to accept a thing as true. Something therefore always remains and sticks from the most imprudent of lies, a fact which all bodies and individuals concerned in the art of lying in this world know only too well, and therefore they stop at nothing to achieve this end."

Mein Kampf Mein Kampf Mein Kampf Mein Kampf

Also see:

Notice the slightly different wording between those quotes. The quotes begin with "the size", or "the greatness". That is the same word in German: die Grösse. Both are correct translations, although the choice of which word to use gives the translations a different feel. This is a very common problem with translations. It's the curse of translators. Sometimes you have either of two English words to use, and sometimes no word is quite correct. There are some German words that have no really correct English equivalent. In a large translation job, you will have lots of situations where you have several almost-correct words available, but no word that is quite right. And in other situations, you just have to choose which of several possible words seems the most appropriate.

I have been trying to get my hands on a German-language version of Mein Kampf, to find the page number for that quote, but haven't gotten an original German copy yet. And it turns out that I cannot download the full German-language version of Mein Kampf from the Internet because the state of Bavaria owns the copyright on Mein Kampf, and they are using the copyright to prevent any further publication of Hitler's book. The copyright will not expire until 2015.

I never said that Adolf Hitler invented the Big Lie technique. I said that he used it. This is what I wrote in that Propaganda Techniques web page:

The Big Lie is a technique that Adolf Hitler used with great success. The idea is that you just keep repeating the same lie over and over, in spite of all arguments or evidence to the contrary, until people believe it. Massive repetition is essential. (Think: "Why do they keep running the same stupid commercials on TV, over and over and over again, ad nauseum?")

I'm sure that people have been lying since shortly after they began to talk. Hitler did not invent or discover that. I can just see some caveman saying, "Hey! I didn't steal your food. I didn't screw your woman. No, not me." The Big Lie technique is just a matter of telling really huge whoppers and repeating them endlessly, until people believe them.

Like, for instance: Ronald Reagan's "Trickle-Down" theory of economics: "If the rich people are allowed to get really, really, really rich, then they will share the wealth with the rest of us by hiring us as their servants, and we will all be happy."

Or, as John Maynard Keynes said, "Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."

Yes, Hitler accused the Jews of lying. That is called "projection". Projection is a psychological technique where someone who is guilty of a sin or crime accuses others of doing what he is doing. That is common behavior in cult leaders. In Mein Kampf, Hitler lied like a rug, so he accused the Jews of lying like rugs.

Speaking of which, Hitler also used projection when he accused the Jews of following the evil plans in the book The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. That forged document laid out plans for using lying and deceit to take over the world. Well, it was Hitler, not the Jews, who used the techniques and plans in The Protocols to try to take over the world.

Lastly, no, I am not the victim of some Zionist propagandists. Hitler was so bad that the Zionists do not have to make up false quotes about Hitler in order to make Hitler look bad. Hitler did a fine job of that himself.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "To win the sympathy of the masses, you must tell them the
**      crudest and most stupid lies."
**         ==  Adolf Hitler
**     "Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people
**     can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round,
**     to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise"
**         ==  Adolf Hitler
**     "There is a road to freedom. Its milestones are Obedience,
**     Endeavor, Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness,
**     Sacrifice, and love of the Fatherland."
**      ==  Message, signed by Adolf Hitler, painted on walls of
**          concentration camps; Life magazine, August 21, 1939

[The next letter from SJL is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#John_M ]

Date: Sun, August 28, 2011 6:35 pm     (answered 30 August 2011)
From: "John M."
Subject: Another AAA (Atheist AAer) article:


BTW, it's funny that AA assumes that if you're an Atheist you automatically assume you have a "Godcode", to borrow from the video game culture.

Hello John,

Thanks for the tip.

Yes, that "Godcode" thing is standard Wilsonism. In Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, Bill Wilson made up the grandiose lie that he had gotten an education at a wonderful engineering school where he was taught that Man is God. (Just like how Bill Wilson also wrote in the Big Book that he was a stock broker.)

Bill told the story this way: One day in the fall of 1934, Ebby Thacher, a fellow Burr and Burton Seminary alumnus, as well as an old drinking buddy and a "hopeless alcoholic", showed up sober and eager to recruit Bill Wilson for the Oxford Group cult. Bill described their conversation this way:

Then I asked him, "What's this all about? You say that you aren't drinking. But you also say you aren't on the water wagon, either. What's up?"
      "Well," said Ebby, "I've got religion."
      What a crusher that was — Ebby and religion! Maybe his alcoholic insanity had become religious insanity. It was an awful letdown. I had been educated at a wonderful engineering college where somehow I had gathered the impression that man was God.
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, pages 58-59.

That wasn't true at all. Bill Wilson was not educated at "a wonderful engineering college" — Bill flunked the MIT entrance exams and didn't even get in. So the engineering college that Bill didn't attend didn't teach him that "man was God".

Instead, Bill Wilson went to a small military academy in Vermont where he excelled at baseball and failed to graduate.

And of course engineering schools do not really teach that Man is God. They teach that Mother Nature is a merciless taskmaster, and if you don't do everything just right, then your bridges will fall down, your airplanes will crash, and your ships will sink.

So Bill says that you think you are God if you don't believe in Bill Wilson's fascist version of God? That is the ravings of a certified lunatic. (Not to mention a compulsive liar.)

And now we have a bunch of junior lunatics walking around parroting Bill's bull, and claiming to be the experts on addiction. As the author of this article reported, the recruiters often use this logical fallacy, framing the argument in false terms:

And not infrequently, they said, "So you think you're the biggest, most important thing in the universe?"

But Bill Wilson was not even being original. Frank Buchman and his Oxford Group cult recruiters used the same technique, and Bill learned it from them.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The alcoholics must understand that they themselves are not God!"
**       ==  Drug-Impaired Professionals, Robert Holman Coombs,
**       Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass. & London, England,
**       1997, page 217. (Italics in original.)

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters258.html#John_McC2 ]

Date: Mon, August 29, 2011 1:08 pm     (answered 31 June 2011)
From: "John McC."
Subject: CNN Article: "The Atheist Way Through AA"

Please read this article, and post it to the forum, so we can all BITCH SLAP this alcoholic "journalist"! Clearly, she either does not know of your site, or is biased against it, so she needs to be confronted as such! And there is no better ANTI-AA AUTHORITY then YOU, Orange!


Hi again, John,

Yes, we were just talking about that article in the previous letter, here.

Talking about bitch-slapping her, what gets me about the story is how she accurately reports how intolerant and bigotted the other A.A. members are, and how they accuse her of thinking that she is "the biggest, most important thing in the universe" because she doesn't believe in their superstitions, and yet, she still has only good things to say about A.A., and praises it as accepting all. What the heck? Talk about blindness. What part of religious bigotry does she not understand?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If the concept of God has any validity or any use, it can only
**     be to make us larger, freer, and more loving. If God cannot
**     do this, then it is time we got rid of Him.
**       ==  James Baldwin

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