Letters, We Get Mail, CXCV

[The previous letter from Lewis is here.]

Date: Mon, August 30, 2010 11:53 am     (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "Lewis S."

hey orange, me again..

Just an update, I got my naltrexone. You wouldn't believe what I had to go through to get it legally. My doctor wanted to have me locked up when I told her that my ptsd was acting up and I had been self medicating with alcohol. As if it couldn't be two seperate issues. Well she wrote me a script on the condition that I go to outpatient 12 step treatment for depression. So I agreed. I also purchased a book called The Cure For Alcoholism by Dr. Eskapa. Unbelievable, that they are hiding this information from suffring alcohol dependent people. Anyways, I will keep you informed of my progress. Fyi, naltrexone is Fda approved to combat cravings with abstinence. That is not how the sinclair method works. The formula is naltrexone plus alcohol equals cure. I know that you are all for abstinance, but think of the implications. No need for expensive detox, no need for higher powers, no need for meetings, big books or self deprication. this would prove your entire website. Which of course u have already done. Well, say another prayer for me, please, I have alot on the line.


Hello again, Lewis,

I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. I hope that Naltrexone works for you.

But "outpatient 12-Step treatment for depression"? That is the worst quackery I have heard of lately. I didn't know there even was such a hoax being sold. The 12 Steps do not cure depression; they cause it.

I will have to check out that book The Cure For Alcoholism by Dr. Eskapa. I had not heard of that one before.

Of course they are hiding information. They are not all stupid and deluded. Some of them know full well that they have nothing but old cult religion to sell. If the full truth were well-known, they would be out of a job. So they rationalize their behavior by declaring, "Well, if he would obey orders and work a strong program, it would work."

Sure, and if people will obey my orders and quit drinking when I tell them to, my program will work too. — Any program, no matter whether it is the Ballerina Tutu Cure, or the Baskin Robbins Cure, or the Patty-Cake Treatment Program, or the Tiddly-Winks Cure. If people will do what I say, and quit drinking when I tell them to, then any goofy cure will work.

Actually, this line is a misimpression: "I know that you are all for abstinance, but think of the implications.."

What I am really all for is total abstinence for me.

Whether any given person should totally abstain from alcohol depends on that person — specifically, on his medical condition, and his mental condition, and his biochemistry, and how he reacts to alcohol.

My reaction to alcohol is instant love, like I want to marry it and make it my lifestyle. And I want to drink myself into Heaven. Forget about petty things like relaxing and just having one or two. I want to go way up above Cloud Nine. I want it to be like LSD, and go for the Ultimate, and zone into The Next Dimension.

That is the dead give-away of someone who should not touch the stuff.

But other people are different. Again, the Rand Corporation study found that half of the recovered alcoholics did it by total abstinence, while the other half did it by just tapering off into moderate, controlled, drinking.

My attitude is, "Whatever works for you." I just want people to quit killing themselves.

So each individual person has the problem of figuring out for himself whether he can moderate, or if he really should just totally abstain. "Whatever works for you."

Okay, good luck again, and take care of yourself, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     You can fool some of the people some of the time,
**     And that's enough to make a decent living.
**        ==  W. C. Fields

Date: Mon, September 6, 2010 1:49 am     (answred 2 October 2010)
From: "Lewis S."

hey orange,

heres my update. I got the naltrexone as I said. Life problems and insane arguments with AA people trying to 12th step me drove me out of town for one last bender that lasted 3 days. I ended up broke and out of beer and gas in the middle of the adirondak mountains. I was able to get ahold of my dad to come get me the next day. By the time he got there, I was in full withdrawl. He brought the naltrexone and I took one, waited an hour, then got a six pack. The results were immediate. It normally takes the whole six pack to stop shaking and convulsing. This time it took one. There was really no desire for another but i forced one down anyways. That was it.

I'm gonna cut this short. I am now 4 days into this. I have not stopped drinking but I have also not felt a need or desire to drink at all. I have had a beer or two each day just to stop the shaking. I came to work last night perfectly sober and not shaking at all.

Orange I am a round the clock drinker who has obsessed about alcohol drunk and sober for over 25 years. The obsession is gone with no effort on my part other than taking a pill One hour before I drink. I have read the book and I also joined a cyber recovery group called thesinclairmethod.com. It appears it is a 3 to 9 month process before the addiction is extinguished. But I have hope that I have not had in so many years. Why can't there be a cure?? Because Aa says so??

By the way there is a thread on My way out dedicated to people using the sinclair method of recovery. I also found an interview with Stanton Peele. It seems he wont get behind TSM because he does not believe addiction is a disease so then there is no cure. this seems ignorant or self serving. Whatever, its working for me. I am also looking into getting help for my ptsd and depression. I am still interested in your take if you have one. My goal is to be alcohol free. The beauty of this method is it eliminates the fear of disasterous relapses as long as i take my pill before i drink, if i do decide to drink.

Anyways,have a good day.

Hello again, Lewis,

Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that Naltrexone seems to be working for you. That's great. Please keep us updated.

This line is very tricky: ...he does not believe addiction is a disease so then there is no cure.

I don't believe that "alcoholism" is a disease either, but there sure as hell is such a thing as addiction. I've also gone through withdrawal, and it isn't a choice or all in your head. The shakes, the seizures, the pain, the agony, the hallucinations and delusions and insanity, that stuff is for real. I think it's a big mistake to equate the words "alcoholism" and "addiction". They aren't the same thing at all.

I can even agree with Dr. Jeffrey Schaler's book title "Addiction is a Choice". Yes, choosing to consume something until you get addicted to it is a choice, but once you are addicted, you have a physiological condition of chemical dependency, and if you don't get more of that chemical you go into withdrawal, and that isn't by choice.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The secret of health for both mind and body is
**    not to mourn for the past, nor to worry about the future,
**    but to live the present moment wisely and earnestly.
**     ==  Buddha

Date: Fri, August 27, 2010 8:39 pm     (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "John H"
Subject: Article in July Wired Magazine online

Thought you could skim through this quickly. You offer much more detail and history.


John H.

Hello John,

Yes, that was an interesting piece of misinformation, wasn't it? I just recently dissected that article, here.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A lie gets halfway around the world before the
**     truth has a chance to get its pants on."
**         == Sir Winston Churchill (1874—1965)

Date: Mon, August 30, 2010 1:58 pm     (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "stefan c."
Subject: speakers corner

Hello —

You mention speakers corner in a letter response which you think is Hyde Park —

It is indeed hyde park, London. There were other corners designated for public speaking around London, though I dont think any are used any more.

There is an idea that you can say anything you like at speakers corner, that its exempt from the usual laws, which it isn't

Regards stefan

Hello again, Stefan,

It's good to hear from you.

Yes, Hyde Park.

Date: Mon, August 30, 2010 1:59 pm     (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "stefan c."
Subject: www.inexcess.tv

you may find some of this interesting. lots of 12 step nonsense being talked, thought of you, regards stefan



I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip.

Date: Tue, August 31, 2010 3:03 am &nbps;   (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "stefan c."
Subject: FW: www.inexcess.tv


heres another one.... at the bottom, it says you can charge £70-£100 a time so it wont be long til you get your £3500 back!

Presuming you can find 35 people willing to pay £100 to "open heavens door" that is...

What a racket. That sure does sound familiar. That's one of the commonest con-job come-on lines, "You can get your money back so easily. Just a small investment leads to big gains..."
Everybody from Amway to Scientology promises that.

I'll have to check that out.

I've been going to NA in england for 9 months. I read you bit last night about de-programming your own mind and not being too down on yourself that you get snared. I really was quite shocked at how much I swallowed without thinking or asking... but I think I have to look on the positive side in that for first couple of months I was not mentally capable of thinking straight, and after 6 months or so I was having serious doubts and after 8 I quit.

Again, remember that they are very skilled at messing with your mind. They know a lot of clever techniques for fooling you into accepting ideas and believing stuff. Alcoholics Anonymous is, after all, one of the most successful cults in the world, and they have their recruiting and proselytizing act down pat. They are not individually that smart; they learned those mind-bending techniques from it being done to them earlier, when they were new to A.A. Alcoholics Anonymous has had 70 years to polish its act. And earlier, Bill Wilson and A.A. learned those techniques and mind games from the Oxford Group and Dr. Frank Buchman. Frank Buchman wasn't all that smart, either. He learned those recruiting tricks and mind games and illogical theological arguments from Henry B. Wright of Yale University, who learned them from Dr. Robert E. Speer, who got them from Henry Drummond, who probably got them from somebody else before him...

The cult religion game is a very old one. I mean very old. Thousands of years old. You were up against a lot of old pros with an awful lot of years of accumulated experience in messing with the minds of newcomers and fooling them into believing nonsense. It was never a fair contest.

Lots of things rang alarm bells, probably all things you have heard before. One was the spiritual principles and meditation stuff. I never heard anyone in NA mention they had been meditating, not once. I never understood (still dont) what anyone means by spiritual principles.

Yes. I know that they claim that doing the 12 Steps is "practicing spiritual principles", but it isn't. Making a list of all of your sins and shortcomings and wrongs and reading it out loud to your sponsor is a cult practice, not a spiritual principle. The rest of the 12 Steps are also practices, not principles. There isn't a spiritual principle in there anywhere. But Step Twelve reads, "...we tried ... to practice these principles in all our affairs." That is another line that they got from Frank Buchman. He is the one who claimed that his goofy cult practices were "principles".

Onward and upward,

regards stefan in england

You have a good day too, Stefan.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The power of accurate observation is frequently
**      called cynicism by those who don't have it."
**        == George Bernard Shaw (1856—1950)

Date: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:10 am     (answered 2 October 2010)
From: "laurance"
Subject: Ann Landers AA

Hi, Orange/Terry...

once again I'm having a great time reading things on your site.

And thanks, thanks plenty for what you're doing.

Now, got a question here.

UPDATE: Much later, in August of 2009, Roger Ebert revealed that both he and Ann Landers were secret members of Alcoholics Anonymous. So Ann Landers was not revealing her bias there.

So I did some clicking and found "My Name is Roger", and scrolling down I came across

It prides itself on anonymity. There are "open meetings" to which you can bring friends or relatives, but most meetings are closed: "Who you see here, what you hear here, let it stay here." By closed, I mean closed. I told Eppie Lederer, who wrote as Ann Landers, that I was now in the program. She said, "I haven't been to one of those meetings in a long time. I want you to take me to one." Her limousine picked me up at home, and we were driven to the Old Town meeting, a closed meeting. I went in first, to ask permission to bring in Ann Landers. I was voted down. I went back to the limo and broke the news to her. "Well I've heard everything!" Eppie said. "Ann Landers can't get into an A.A. meeting!" I knew about an open meeting on LaSalle Street, and I took her there.

What I get from this is that Ann Landers had been to AA meetings in the past, and on that occasion visited again, at an open meeting. This account doesn't specifically say that she'd been a member, only that she wanted to visit.

Somehow I think that if she'd really been an AA member and "an alcoholic", she would know that she could come to a closed meeting. I'd think also that Roger Ebert would know that he couldn't break her anonymity without her permission (although I gather that she had already died by the time this account was written).

Do you have more information about this? Is there more evidence out there to support the assertion that Ann Landers was an AA member (other than her relentless flogging of the program)?

(Oh, and this gem from Ebert, "One sweet lady said her higher power was a radiator in the Mustard Seed, 'because when I see it, I know I'm sober.'" I thought it was the Almighty and Highly Powerful Doorknob. Some years ago I set up an altar with the Sacred Doorknob on it and took a picture which I then posted on 12-step-free, of which I was a moderator at the time. I think it's a swell picture. I'm pretty technologically challenged, and I don't know if I can attach and send a picture of it to you or not.)

Anyhow, hooray for you and what you're doing.


Laura, co-owner, EFTCoaa (Escaping From The Cult of aa @ yahoo), 12-Step_Coercion_Watch, and without_aa (@ yahoo)

Hello Laura,

Thanks for the thanks.

I think you are quite right. Saying that Ann Landers was a "member" is too strong of a statement. Roger Ebert was, but Ann Landers wasn't. At least not from the evidence that we have. If she were really a member, she wouldn't have to ask permission to attend a closed meeting. I came to that conclusion a long time ago, here, as soon as I read Ebert's article. So that wording was unfortunate, and not quite accurate. I should change that.

I'm still curious about why she spent a lifetime promoting Alcoholics Anonymous. She was sure a believer in it.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The difference between fiction and reality?
**      Fiction has to make sense."
**         ==  Tom Clancy 

Date: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:57 pm     (answered 6 October 2010)
From: "Meg W"
Subject: More AA murders (old news)

Hello again, Orange.

Still loving the website! Just wanted to share these links with you, since I've recently stumbled across several AA murder stories on your site.

Lou Wilson was a casual acquaintance with whom I shared several mutual friends. We'd occasionally cross paths at the coffee shop and chat. He even spent a night or two at my apartment. If you have a strong stomach, you can google his name to get the whole story of how he raped her dead body for several days and spent all her money, or something along those lines — I've tried to block all the specific details.


Josh was one of my dearest friends, until he started hanging out with Matt Johnson. I had told my then-sponsor in April 2008 I had a gut feeling Matt had the potential to murder someone, namely Josh. No concrete evidence, just a gut feeling because Matt was that sketchy. I was told to add Matt to my 4th step, because, in said sponsor's eyes, all that was just anger and resentment I was holding against Matt. I still have that 4th step. Josh was murdered less than six weeks after that 4th step. I wrote in there in so many words that I was afraid Matt would kill Josh. If only I had not been so blinded by the AA bullshit of "Sponsor knows best," Josh might still be alive today, because I would have been more inclined to go with MY OWN intuition, and not my sponsor's.


I'd share more, but this email has been quite the emotional drain, bringing up these memories.

I am quite happy to add that since I have recovered from my addiction and quit 12 stepping, I have not become close friends or even casually acquainted with any rapists or murderers.

Keep on shining the light of reason!

Peace, Love, and Light,

Hello Meg,

Thank you for the letter and the sad story. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.

A.A. promoters often brag that everybody is welcome in A.A., that the only requirement for membership in A.A. is a desire to quit drinking alcohol. And all kinds of "everybodies" do show up there, too, as you have noticed. A.A. meetings are definitely not a safe place to recover.

I've been creeped out at A.A. meetings, too, like when I realize that the big muscular fellow who is sharing a story about flying into a rage and trying to kill his friend is really a dangerously unstable, homocidally violent psycho.

I was just wondering what kind of a hospital we would have if we announced that we had a hospital for everybody, no rules, no questions asked except, "Do you wish to quit drinking?" And no security staff on duty, either — not ever. And whenever somebody does something bad, the other patients and the doctors and nurses just rationalize, "Well what did you expect? We are not saints."

P.S.: And any criminal or psycho can become a doctor after simply hanging out in that hospital for a couple of years, and he is free to treat the patients however he wishes. That would be quite some hospital.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   "Things are now in motion that cannot be undone."
**     ==  Gandalf, Lord Of The Rings

Date: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:53 am     (answered 6 October 2010)
From: "Kevin R."
Subject: slight correction

I was reading your snake-oil article and was disgusted to find a schizophrenics anonymous group in that long lost of AA groups. Absolutely revolting. However, I checked it out and while it is still obnoxious, the steps have been softened a little bit (just to be fair). There are only 6 steps, and In particular, there is no mention of daily meditations and seeking god (which you made mention to in your article).

Although this is a small detail, I think it is worth correcting for accuracy purposes.

Thanks for listening,


Hi Kevin,

Thanks for noticing that. Yes, that's a good thing to fix. I want to keep every detail accurate. As you noticed, the truth is so outrageous that I don't need to exaggerate.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Alcohol Abuse doesn't need people like you besmirching its reputation."
**       ==  Randy Rhodes, spoofing a Congressman who went after young boys
**           and then blamed it on alcohol — a comedy routine on the
**           Randy Rhodes Show.

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20:

beach with Canada Goose goslings The beach scene
The Family of 9 is on the left, with all four parents visible, and the Family of 5 is on the right, with the parents just off-screen. That is the family of 5 older goslings that refused to adopt Carmen.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

Date: Wed, September 1, 2010 9:42 am     (answered 8 October 2010)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Martin M. M. sent you a message on Facebook...

Martin sent you a message.

Subject: Book you may like.

"Hello, Terrence, hope you're well. I've just read a fantastic book that I think you'd be interested in. It's called 'Tricks of the mind', By Derren Brown. It's very interesting, and his writing style is similar to yours. Have a lovely weekend mate."

Hi again, Martin,

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check that out.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If God had intended us to fly, he would have given us wings.
**     Well, didn't He?
**        ==  Peter, Paul, and Mary
**     If God had intended us to think, he would have given us brains.
**     Well, didn't He?

Date: Wed, September 1, 2010 12:51 pm     (answered 8 October 2010)
From: Katherine
Subject: AA — religious vs. spirituality, etc.

Dear Mr. Orange:

Hello. I've written before about secular support groups for families and you were kind enough to reply.

I was hoping you might be able to steer me in the direction of an answer to an ongoing debate. There's an ongoing argument at a forum on whether or not AA is religious.

There are some very interesting and intelligent arguments being posted, but it's basically down to, "AA ISN'T religious, it's spiritual!" vs "AA IS religious, it's spiritual!"

Apparently mentioning God doesn't count for religious, it's "spiritual."

It's frustrating. Can you point me in the right direction on your website to maybe get some better evidence or debating points?

Thanks. I'm throwing your site $5 as well, which doesn't sound like much, but hope it helps.


Hello Katherine,

Thank you for the question and the donation. That does help. There are a zillion little odds and ends expenses in doing a web site like this, and they add up. I just got another old book on what might be another cult religion just last night. Thanks.

Ah, yes, the old "It's spiritual, not religious" baloney. I covered that in the file "It's Spiritual, Not Religious".

I can't think of much to add to that right now, but I really have to repeat Judge John Shabaz's ruling, when he was faced with that question:

Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
— Wisconsin's Federal 7th Circuit Court Judge John Shabaz, in the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, 1984.

Claiming that A.A. is spiritual, not religious, is like claiming that it is night, not dark out. Such jabber is meaningless.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool ... shun him.
**     He who knows not and knows that he knows not, is ignorant ... teach him.
**     He who knows and knows not that he knows, is asleep ... wake him.
**     He who knows and knows that he knows, is a wise man ... follow him.
**        ==  Persian proverb

Date: Thu, September 2, 2010 3:27 pm     (answered 8 October 2010)
From: "John S."

Howdy Orange...

Just thumbing through some old letters because I enjoy them so much and ran across this nugget highlighted in red. Apparently alcoholism isn't caused by drinking alcohol. It's from hostility towards AA. I suppose under those conditions Ted Bundy could be considered an alcoholic since he exhibited hostility towards women. Hope you're enjoying the summer.


Date: Wed, July 2, 2008 11:29 am (answered 8 April 2009)
From: "Arthur F."
Subject: More Big Lies

Your hostility to AA suggests to me that you are an alcoholic. You obviously prefers to drink andneed to convince as many other alcoholics to drink themselves to death rather than recover so you'll have plenty of company. ...

Arthur J. F.

[The entire letter is here.]

Hi John,

Thanks for the letter. Yes, that detail slipped by me. "Hostility to AA" proves that someone is an alcoholic? Hmmm. I don't recall seeing that one on any of the standard tests or questionaires that test whether someone is an alcoholic.

I understand his goofy logic, but it is goofy logic. He thinks I need drinking company. But he has his facts all backwards. Even if I were drinking, which I'm not, I wouldn't need to waste my time talking about A.A. in order to find drinking companions. Just a short journey to the nearest bars and pubs will supply all of the drinking buddies anyone could wish for. No need to manufacture more.

Oh, and I couldn't help but think, "Does that mean that hostility towards Scientology proves that I am a 'Suppressive Person' who is secretly working for the Evil Galactic Overlord Xenu?"

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If misery loves company, misery has company enough.
**        ==  Henry David Thoreau, Journal, Sept. 1851

Date: Thu, September 2, 2010 3:55 pm     (answered 8 October 2010)
From: "Gordon G."
Subject: WRONG

Do you know how much damage you are doing with this? You are a good example of self will run riot and you obviously are not an alcoholic. Leave things alone that you know nothing about. You do not recover from Alcoholism. You are given a daily reprieve. You do this by being part of the fellowship of AA. You don't run and hide and do it alone. You might stop drinking but I can guarantee you will be miserable if you are an alcoholic.

Hello Gordon,

Wow, here we go again. It's the same old lines about how telling the truth about A.A. is doing a great disservice to alcoholics. But this time, you are claiming that I am not an alcoholic. The previous letter was saying that my hostility to A.A. proves that I am an alcoholic.

What is missing from your letter is any evidence that A.A. actually does anything good. What about the damage that A.A. is doing by foisting an ineffective quack cure on sick alcoholics?

By the way, I did quit drinking, and stay quit, without A.A., and I am quite happy, thank you. In two more weeks, I will be celebrating 10 years of sobriety. And then, three weeks after that, 10 years off of cigarettes too.

Your argument that people do not do it alone is a reversal of reality. The truth is that the vast majority of people who successfully quit drinking do it alone, without a "support group", or a cult religion, or "treatment center" rip-off.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Rev. Jim Jones said, "Drink the red koolaid. It
**     has cured millions. RARELY have we seen it fail...
**     But then again, the green koolaid is good too.
**     Take what you want, and leave the rest."

Date: Sun, September 5, 2010 7:35 pm     (answered 9 October 2010)
From: "Glen H."
Subject: Your article.

Dear Orange,

Thanks for your article. You alcoholic? Have a cousin who says he is. Not sure what that means. He won't or perhaps can not stop drinking. Lots of damage. Any suggestions? It appears you've done a good literature review. Any person experience with friends family, etc.?



Hello Glen,

Yes, an alcoholic. But watch out for the definitions of that funny word. A.A. routinely uses several different definitions, and mixes them up, which confuses the issues. See the definitions here.

We have talked at length about what works to help alcoholics to quit drinking. I just answered those same questions a few letters back, so I'll refer you to that letter, here.

Have a good day, and good luck with your cousin.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Whisky is a good thing in its place. There is nothing like it for
**    preserving a man when he is dead.  If you want to keep a dead man,
**    put him in whisky; if you want to kill a live man put whisky in him.
**      ==  Guthrie.

May 20, 2009, Wednesday: Day 20, continued:

Canada Goose family, eating oatmeal
Carmen's Family, eating oatmeal
It's hard to say for sure, because one gosling is out of the picture, but it looks like Carmen is the small dark gosling in the the back, center, with her head down. The father is the adult on the left. He is easy to recognize because of his distinctive spiked white head patch.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Fri, September 3, 2010 6:56 am     (answered 8 October 2010)
From: "Anon UK"
Subject: C Mann Paper

Hi Orange

Not read all your wonderful website yet, so you may have already seen Cathleen Mann's paper on Therapeutic Groups v 12 Step Groups. If not here it is:-


Anyway as another who suffered much mental agony and turmoil at the hands of that disgusting satanic aa cult and also lost two friends, one a suicide, during that horrendous time, I say thanks for all your work.

You have a great day.


Anon UK

Hello Anon,

Thank you for the tip and the compliments. No, I had not seen it.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      If everybody is faking it until they make it,
**      all you are left with is a room full of fakes.
**         ==  Anonymous

Date: Wed, September 8, 2010 6:17 pm     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "Todd Q."
Subject: Stinkin' Thinkin'

Hey Terrance,

We have a community of people over at http://stinkin-thinkin.com/ who are beginning to talk about some sort of activism to expose the AA fraud. I'm sure that many of us would be happy to hear some of your thoughts. I understand that you've already got some ideas as far as letter writing campaigns. I think it's a good idea for us likeminded folks to stick together... so here is my unnoficial invitation for you to join us.

Thanks again for what you do... You didn't save my life... You just gave me permission to save it for myself.

Hello Todd,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. And thank you for your activism.

I'll try to get in there and take a look. I am offline now, and I just walk down to the local library with a laptop to get Internet access, so the amount of time that I have available for cruising the net is pretty small. Just keeping up with answering email takes most of my time. And then there is downloading Linux updates every so often, and doing research...

One thing that immediately comes to mind, that I've been wanting to work on, but haven't gotten around to it, it activism relative to the "Paul Wellstone Equal Access Act". Follow that link, and you will learn about one of the lowest political tricks that the bribe-taking Senators have pulled in a while. Basically, it was a trick to give hundreds of billions of taxpayers' dollars to Wall Street. But that trick was piggy-backed on a pre-existing bill to give "equal access for mental health". Well of course the 12-Step treatment centers interpret that to mean that they get more money for foisting cult religion on the suckers.

Also see these letters:

  1. Can we get this shit stopped already???? HOW!? HELP!
  2. the most exploitative criminals of all are The Treatment Providers
  3. it adds the requirement that the treatment must be shown to be effective
  4. We need to keep reminding our politicians that 12-Step treatment is a hoax that does not work

A clause in the bill said that treatment centers had two years to show that treatment works. I am not up to date on the details, but two years is nearly over, and I know that they are going to try to fake the tests to make it look like "treatment works". They stand to loose billions of dollars in health insurance money if the clinical tests show that TSF (Twelve-Step Facilitation) is ineffective. They won't be able to demand that health insurance companies pay for TSF treatment. So they will do everything they can to falsify the results, and not do actual clinical tests.

We need to write to our Senators and Congressmen, asking for properly-controlled clinical studies of 12-Step treatment, specifically Randomized Longitudinal Controlled Studies . The treatment centers should not be allowed to present their faked "studies that find associations" as evidence that A.A. and TSF work to make alcoholics quit drinking, or drug addicts to stop doping.

The elections are nearly here. I wish I had been working on this earlier, but was distracted with other busy-work. Still, the politicians are in listening mood with election day so close. So now is a good time for some letters to your Senators and Congressmen.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian

Date: Thu, September 9, 2010 12:44 am     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Jamie G. posted on your Wall.

Jamie G. posted on your Wall.

Jamie wrote:

"Hey orange hows it going... Been thinking about the lizard brain and how crafty that lil bastard really is. have ya ever felt sorry for it because ya wont give into its demands and then thought poor thing maybe i should give it a drink. lol. Makes me laff. its determination to get what it bloody wants.... Hope ya well and SMART recovery is still going strong over here :))))"

Hi Jamie,

Thanks for the message. Yes, old Lizard Brain is absolutely relentless, isn't he? I really like Whoopi Goldberg's line about the cartoon character "Pepe Le Peau": "He is absolutely relentless. He is everything that you want your agent to be. But he is really just a horny little skunk." Pepe Le Peau is a great personification of the Lizard Brain at work.

But on the bright side, that relentless little Lizard Brain has kept life going for hundreds of millions of years. We might be extinct if he weren't so crazy about getting food and sex.

There is just this little problem with him learning about intoxication and drug rushes. Then he won't quit harping on that.

I'm glad to hear that SMART is going well over in Great Britain. That's good.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Democracy, which has grown up in the last three hundred years,
**     represents, with its emphasis upon individual responsibility
**     and individual actions, the most difficult societal system,
**     requiring a definite human maturity.
**         Totalitarianism and especially fascism can in many ways
**     be regarded as an escape from this difficulty into the
**     irresponsibility of following a leader who deprives the
**     people of their liberty and their maturity but promises them
**     'security' and 'economic progress'.
**        == walter_map,  May 14th, 2007
**      Published on Monday, May 14, 2007 by CommonDreams.org

Date: Fri, September 10, 2010 11:35 pm     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "D ST"
Subject: much thanx Mr Orange

Seriously dude, you crack me up. Your awesome! I lost patience with folks sucked into cults long ago, it is really nice of you to care. I have been to a few aa meetings, with my ex, and a friend. When I went with my ex years ago, after listening to a meeting and various testimonies, I was poking him in his side, low voiced, saying 'this is a cult'....for sure I wanted him to not drink, he was a bitch on booze, but I wanted him not to be a cult zombie a wee bit more. Pick yer druthers I reckon.

Then I went with a friend for her 5 year cake. After that ritual was over, all these smiling people surrounded me, asking me how long I had been a member. As soon as I, uh, — admitted — I wasn't, you wouldn't believe how fast that circle scattered. Cheers to you for taking it on. I just can't seem to care enough for cult zombies to care.

Hello D,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

Yes, that "Love Bombing" routine is really something else, isn't it? And phony as a three-dollar bill.

In the beginning it's, "We love you because you are one of us. We love you unconditionally. Let us love you until you can love yourself."

But then, if disagree with their dogma, and won't buy into the fantasy, and reveal that you are not really one of them, they can't drop you fast enough.

Yep, typical cult behavior.

Oh well, have a good day. I'm glad to hear that your brain is free.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He is "obviously brainwashed, although a light rinse would
**     probably have been sufficient. Even worse, it's been Scotchgarded,
**     and is impervious to contamination by any idea which conflicts
**     with his prejudices."
**        == walter_map,  May 14th, 2007
**      Published on Monday, May 14, 2007 by CommonDreams.org

Date: Sat, September 11, 2010 9:52 am     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Anne I. posted on your Wall.

Anne I. posted on your Wall.

Anne wrote:

"Hello Orange: Just wanted to let you know after having contact w/ an AA member the other day unnerved me, but reading 2 pages on you site quickly allowed me to hold center. Just reading the illogic of members, & your matter-of-fact responses ... reminded me that freedom of cults is still the best choice."

Hello Anne,

Thanks for the note. I'm glad to hear that my pages can act as an antidote to the nuttyness of A.A.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human
**     stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and
**     justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism
**     and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or
**     political idols.
**        ==  Aldous Huxley

Date: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:21 am     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "Jane D."
Subject: A query

Hi A. Orange,

I'm in the process of writing a rather scathing memoir on my experience in a 12 Step rehab for booze problems four years ago.

I am definitely not a 12 Step convert and viewed every step of my three month journey in that rehab with the deepest, most hostile suspicion. The clean time was beneficial to be sure, but not the rest.

Once I overcame my initial fear that "they were right" I went back to my therapist and dealt with my issues the slow sane way, through non-judgmental talk therapy and some behavior modification. Now I have one to three cigarettes daily and two to four drinks. Not a model life maybe, but better than too much of one or the other. A kind of moderation if you will. That's the way I want it..

I ran into your site when I was angrily looking for dirt on AA. I just wonder where you got all your facts or how you went about your research. Do you have a book out?

Best Regards,

Hello Jane,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

I've been collecting facts on A.A. and recovery for more than ten years now. I get information from everywhere I can. You can start with the bibliography, here. I have used the excellent Inter-Library Loan (ILL) system of the local county library to get even rare books about the history of A.A. and it's precursor "The Oxford Group". They are so good that at times they have gotten me the one and only available copy of a rare book in all of the United States and Canada.

I also go to the local medical university library, and get medical and scientific articles there. And I also use the ILL system to get such articles.

And then of course there is the Internet. I download everything that I can find that is relevant.

I also have a fair collection of A.A. and other 12-Step books, pamphlets, magazines, tapes, and such things. A couple of people donated their entire libraries when they quit A.A. Thank you. I also buy old books about A.A. and the Oxford Group and Moral Re-Armament and cults off of Amazon and eBay, and I also occasionally find such books in used book stores, too.

It all adds up, after 10 years.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Money spent on the brain is never spent in vain.

Date: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:13 pm     (answered 20 October 2010)
From: "Brooke K."
Subject: Lack of Safety in AA

Hi Orange,

As usual I enjoy reading your posts.

I noticed mention of pedophiles in and around AA. There was one in the Escondido Newspaper, (2005?) attending AA but when he wasn't in meetings he was staying close to school yards.

I was reminded of Rabbi Neulander, (New Jersey), whose hit man for his wife was, Len Jenoff, who attended AA on an ongoing basis.

And the, "2,000 men," Clancy claimed to sponsor in 1993, one of which was Mike Q.

I wonder how therapists in good conscience, (with expensive liability insurance), can dare risk sending a client to AA.

My best,


Hi again, Beth,

Thanks for the tips. And you bring up a very good question: Malpractice insurance for counselors who recommend cult religion and quack medicine as treatment for a deadly addiction problem — that is, Alcoholics Anonymous and its 12-Step siblings. It seems like the insurance companies should charge a lot for such malpractice insurance. Or they will, as soon as a few people win big lawsuits for malpractice and incompetence.

When you think about it, that situation is a licensed counselor advising the patient go to unlicensed and untrained amateur counselors for "help".

So where are the mad-dog ambulance-chasing lawyers when you need one?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.
[The next letter from Beth is here.]

Date: Sun, September 12, 2010 4:31 pm     (answered 10 October 2010)
From: "John D."
Subject: re AA

A better question might be: Why did you go to so much trouble to prove something that can't be explained? So you can drink whenever? You can do that anyway, with or without AA. The questions you pose and exhausting research could apply to any religion, tea club, or church parish...

John D.

Hello John,

Thanks for the letter. That is a neat, dense little example of A.A. thinking.

The first giant red flag in your letter is "something that can't be explained". So, you are trying to imply that A.A. works in some magical way that cannot be logically or medically explained? Bull. A.A. does not work at all, it just steals the credit from some people who were going to quit drinking anyway, and that can be easily explained.

Claiming to have "Something that can't be explained" is a commonplace cult characteristic, you know.

I do not drink. In ten more days, I will have ten years of sobriety. I do not need to cricitize A.A. in order to "have an excuse to drink", as the A.A. slogan says.

And your third statement is just a lame attempt at standard old Minimization and Denial (DeNile ain't just a river in Egypt):
"The questions you pose and exhausting research could apply to any religion, tea club, or church parish..."
No, the cultish behavior of A.A. is not common to any church or religion or tea club. Read the Cult Test.

The reason why I criticize Alcoholics Anonymous is because it is fraud and quackery that hurts more people than it helps.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     And the cult said, "If you want what we have,
**     and are willing to go to any length to get it,
**     then, here, drink this koolaid."

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Last updated 18 September 2014.
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