Letters, We Get Mail, CLIX

Date: Tue, January 26, 2010 5:46 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Michael"
Subject: Your Orange Papers — Comment & Question


I've read some of your "Orange Papers" and always come away wondering what your motivation is. I also don't see any real contribution. What runs throughout what you write is "listen to me" ... "listen to me".... but you don't offer anything except criticism of other people.

So my question is...... "What do you have to offer other than criticism?"

Thank you, M. T.

Hello Michael,

I have explained my motivation many times. Look here and here.

We often talk about what works for quitting addictions, and what can help, and what has helped others. See this list of what works.

Note that somebody can and should criticize quack medicine, wherever he finds it, even if he does not have a working cure of his own to offer as an alternative to the quackery. Nevertheless, I do have some working solutions and help and aids, starting with what worked for me, the "Do It Yourself" method.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

Date: Fri, January 29, 2010 7:34 am     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Dana R"

Dear Orange,

I am so thrilled for your site and I really hope you write a book. Have you written one yet?

I have been around this cult AA for awhile. I continually relapse for 3 years, in and out of this program that told me if I didn't do it their way I was to die. I finally have gotten sober for good and walk away for good. I have been abused -shamed- told me to be dependent on meetings forever.

I read all about bill and bob and their occult guidance. I am so sicken with CR in churches now when they know damn well the 12 steps were not from God as they claim.

I mean I seen people kill themselves because of AA. I seen predators and horrible people who have forced sexual advances on new people. I have witnessed AA first hand and the disgust I feel is something I must write about. It is truly a dangerous place. They PREY on vulnerable people.

I recently had an argument with a rapist. I found his offender listing online, and he was so-called helping a new girl who is in a wheelchair with walking. So I told this girl. She told him. He confronted me in a dark parking lot and basically threatened me. It was the last straw for me.

I refuse to be associated with sick ass people like AA. I am a strong willed determined woman and I am an analytical thinker which they hate. I mean I have so-called friends in this AA, and when I informed them I was departing and never to come back, they shunned me.. Just like in the ancient times.

Good riddance. I am empowered and I am into true healing which I have found through the holy bible, not some want be cult group. I got clean and saw the "truth" and thought, "Oh my God, no way, this is crazy." They truly believe in not thinking on their own, and I cannot fathom why anyone would choose AA.


Hi Dana,

Thanks for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you have broken free and are doing well.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     What is the difference between surrendering your Will
**     and your life to "Higher Power" in Step Three, and
**     selling your soul to the Devil in trade for sobriety?

Date: Wed, January 27, 2010 10:56 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Mack McA."
Subject: bitter

you either can't stop drinking, or can't get laid.
lighten the fuck up, we're all human.

Hello Mack,

That is quite an argument for foisting quack medicine on sick people.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.
**        ==  Mark Twain (Samuel Longhorne Clemens) 1835—1910

Date: Fri, January 29, 2010 9:24 am     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Brandon F."
Subject: AA

What do you suggest as an alternate for of treatment?

A recovering alcoholic

Sent from iPhone

Date: Fri, January 29, 2010 9:26 am
From: "Brandon F."
Subject: AA

I appologize for my typos. Again, what do you suggest as an alternate form of treatment?

Still an Alcoholic

Sent from iPhone

Hello Brandon,

My favorite things are SMART, and Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT), which is the practice of recognizing the voice of the Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster as it tries to talk you into drinking again. The list of what works, and what has helped people, is here.

And make sure that you see the list of letters where people have talked about what worked for them: here.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Sitting around talking about being depressed with depressed
**      people does not make you better."
**         ==  NPR (National Public Radio), 1:23PM, 23 November 2009

Date: Thu, January 28, 2010 3:32 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "douglas m."
Subject: RE: You've just made my day

Hi Orange

When i have the time I will write you a full essay of my experience.

I was looking on your site in the wish list section and saw this

Somebody did a study that found that upscale, richer, alcoholics were more successful in quitting drinking. They were more motivated to succeed at getting their lives back together because they had more to lose than the down-and-out street drunks who had lost everything (except their lives, which was next).

So what was that study?

You probably already know of this, but if not, you should. I pretty sure that Narcotics Anonymous does an annual survey of their members that includes stats like clean time, ethnic origin, salary, some details on upbringing. I remember seeing some stats that showed that the people who recovered the longest were white middle- and upper-class men with a good incomes. It would be interesting to compare results of any similar studies done on addicts who recovered by themselves.

Date: Thu, January 28, 2010 3:36 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "douglas m."
Subject: FW: You've just made my day

I found the link for you

if that dont work try this

Gender: 56% male
44% female.
Age: 2% 20 years old and under
14% 21-30 years old
23% 31-40 years old
37% 41-50 years old
22% 51-60 years old
3% over 60 years old
1% did not answer.
Ethnicity: 73% Caucasian
14% African-American
7% Hispanic
7% other.
Employment status: 69% employed full-time
9% employed part-time
7% unemployed
6% retired
4% homemakers
5% students.
Continuous abstinence/recovery: ranged from less than one year up to 40 years, with a mean average of 9.1 years.

Hope it's a help

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for the links and the numbers.

Yes, it would be very interesting to compare these numbers to any similar studies done on addicts who recovered by themselves. That would reveal how well the N.A. 12-Step program actually works.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In any given year, people with alcohol dependence commit more
**     than 20 percent of suicides in the general population; while
**     80 percent to 90 percent of alcohol dependence suicides are
**     by men, mostly white.
**        ==  Fred W. Johnson of the Prevention Research Center at
**            Texas A&M University == UPI, Sept. 21, 2009

Date: Sat, January 30, 2010 1:29 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Quentin F."
Subject: seeing the truth

Hello my name is Quentin F. from ohio.

I just wanted to say thank you for going against the grain and refusing to nod your head in agreement just because everyone was too. I have seen the postings on your website to be true from my own experiences. I am sick and tired of going to AA and hearing the lies spread to every newcomer. I go and speak blasphemy as they call it now at meetings instead of repeating the nonsense of Bill W.

Thank you so much for everything. I don't feel crazy anymore knowing I'm not the only one AA doesn't feel right to.

Your Friend and fellow human being,
Quentin F.

Hello Quentin,

Thanks for the letter, and thanks for the thanks. I'm glad that you are thinking for yourself.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools,
**     but that the lightning ain't distributed right."
**        ==  Mark Twain (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835—1910)

Date: Fri, January 29, 2010 6:14 am     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Ted B."
Subject: aloha

i was reading a bunch of new letters ...then my connection shut down. I went back to your site and THERE were no new letters. What's up with that? .... Anyway, have a great day.

Hello Ted,

It was a small matter of a draconian new property management company driving me out of my apartment and making me homeless, leaving me spending my time looking for a new, better place to live, rather than working on the web site.

But it's done — I have the new place now, so I'm back to answering letters again.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the
**     things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
**     So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor.
**     Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
**        == Mark Twain (American Humorist, Writer & Lecturer. 1835—1910)

Date: Fri, January 29, 2010 5:20 am     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Mike B."
Subject: Ordered To AA

Hey, Terry,

This woman wasn't ordered to AA for being an incestuous pedophile, but she was ordered, nonetheless.

Hope your move went well, and the weather is treating your area OK. A friend of mine in Folsom, CA said it has been brutal there.


OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — The stepmother of a suspected incest victim was the first to guess the boy might have been sexually abused by his mother, the boy's father said Thursday.

The 15-year-old boy's mother has been charged with first-degree sexual assault, accused of having sex nightly with her teenage son when he was in seventh and eighth grades. The Douglas County Attorney's office says the 41-year-old woman was released Wednesday on $3,000 bond.

The teen's stepmother asked the high school sophomore about two weeks ago whether he had been sexually assaulted, the boy's father said. The boy has lived with his father and stepmother in Omaha for about the last 18 months.

"I suspected something for years," the man said. "I never thought it was sexual abuse. I thought it could be physical or verbal abuse.

"My wife ... just out of the blue asked him, 'Has someone assaulted you?' His reply was nothing. His actions and his facial look told the answer."

He said he and his wife immediately took the boy to a counselor who had worked with the boy in 2008, when the father gained custody of the boy. The teen told the counselor that the abuse occurred while his mother was abusing prescription drugs, the father said. It was the counselor who reported the alleged abuse to police.

Court records show the mother pleaded no contest last year to a misdemeanor after being charged with intentionally violating narcotics laws. The Washington County sheriff's office said the woman had been trying to fill 15 different prescriptions from seven different doctors for 468 pills of the sleep aid Ambien or its generic equivalent.

The woman was sentenced to one year of probation and ordered to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings as part of a deal with prosecutors.

The boy's father, who was never married to the teen's mother, said his son seems to have had an emotional burden lifted since reporting the abuse, noting that the boy's grades have since improved.

"I think the abuse had gone on for a long time," the father said. "At one point, he was thinking this is how normal people act — that this is what you do with your mother."

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the story. It really is appalling how A.A. is used as a cure-all — like sentencing a woman to A.A. for prescription drug abuse and child abuse, which doesn't have much to do with alcohol. But in A.A. she just might learn how to 13th-Step minors, like in this story.

My move is still in progress — I still have to get a truck and a crew and do the big move. But I'm enjoying having my own place again, with absolutely nobody else there, which is a big contrast from having 90 coughing guys around you all of the time.

(Oh yeh, diseases are a major problem in shelters. You catch everything that everybody else has, which means most every contagious disease that the city has to offer. The guys fan out over the city during the day, working or looking for work, or looking for housing, or whatever, and they collect every disease that is around, and then they bring it all back to the shelter and share their diseases with their neighbors at night. The Pentagon should fund that shelter as a germ warfare laboratory. I'm still getting over a cough that the place gave me as a going-away present.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Dream as though you'll live forever, live as though you'll die today
**    ==  James Dean

Date: Sat, January 30, 2010 4:35 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Mette E."
Subject: Neville chamberlain


I have read alot of what is written here and I wonder if its possible to get documents that show that it is the truth you are telling about Neville Chamberlain been in the inner circle of the Oxford group and Frank Buchman.

Where have you found that documents and where can I get them? I'm very interested because it seems that you are the only one in the world that have them.

From Mette E.

Hello Mette,

Thank you for the question. Happily, I am not the only one who has that information. I got it from Peter Padfield, who wrote the biography of Heinrich Himmler called Himmler, Reichsführer. Peter Padfield is a well-known and respected historian. At least one of his books about the history of naval warfare is published by the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis — Armada. And his book Dönitz, the last Führer: portrait of a Nazi war leader is another biography of a World War II commander.

But please note that I never said that Chamberlain was part of the inner circle of the Oxford Group. I just said that he was a member of the Oxford Group.

At the bottom of page 231 of Himmler, Reichsführer, we see:

      Canaris appears to have been playing both sides. While Abwehr Section II stoked up the situation inside Czechoslovakia he sent his own emissaries to warn London and acted as intermediary between Oster and Halder in the preparations for an Army coup against Hitler. It is possible he had become convinced of the mortal dangers into which Germany was being led and was keeping his options open for a jump either way. On the other hand few were better informed than he, Himmler and Heydrich that 'appeasement' was ascendant in London — it is interesting that both Chamberlain and Sir Horace Wilson were members of the Oxford Group — and Canaris' special envoy on behalf of the 'opposition', von Kleist-Schmenzin, reported in August that his arguments had got nowhere with Chamberlain. From the trend of his message he might almost have been sent to London to muddy the waters for the Goerdeler-Schacht group. Once again there is more than a suspicion that Canaris remained a convinced supporter of the Führer, and that his 'opposition' activities were designed to incite and uncover anti-Nazi generals, delivering them to Himmler who could seize them if they decided to act — so winning great sympathetic support for Hitler and the regime — or mark them if they did not, holding them to the line in future by the threat of his surveillance and their own knowledge of guilt.
Himmler, Reichsführer, Peter Padfield, pages 231—232.

Now Padfield did not include a footnote on the factoid of Chamberlain and Wilson being members of the Oxford Group. I would also like to know where he got that particular tidbit of information.

I read a review on the Internet of Padfield's Himmler book that stated that Padfield did no new, original, research for the book, that he got the material for the book from six other authoritative biographies of Himmler. I would like to know which one of them stated that Chamberlain was in the Oxford Group, too.

Have a good day.

== Orange

P.S.: (2010.05.28)
I also found this:

Chamberlain, who had believed in MRA, was disgraced. He had trusted Hitler too much.
They Have Found A Faith, by Marcus Bach, The Bobs-Merrill Company, Indianapolis & New York, 1946, pages 154-155.

The chapter on MRA is quite good, quite revealing and descriptive, written by a first-hand witness who knew his religions.

(Remember that MRA — Moral Re-Armament — was just the Oxford Group, renamed.)

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
**     hoping it will eat him last."
**       ==  Winston Churchill, Reader's Digest, December 1954.

Date: Mon, February 1, 2010 6:53 am     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "Timothy D. Edwards"
Subject: Your Website

I understand that one of my articles is referenced on your website ("Autonomy and Twelve-Step Therapy: Can They Co-Exist?"). I can't find it. Even so, I was impressed with the depth of your research and obvious energy on this topic. I think it is very important to emphasize that the tactics used in twelve step therapy cannot be squared with the most basic ethical principles that therapists are supposed to follow. It is impossible.

Timothy Edwards, LLM, SJD
Madison WI 53703

Hello Timothy,

I don't think that article is referenced on my site. I don't remember it, and I can't find it either. But it sounds very interesting. Care to send me a link to it?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    If you get bubonic plague, do you go to a club composed of
**    other victims of bubonic plague, or do you go to a doctor?

P.S.: I found it over in the "AAdeprogramming" archives at the "More Revealed" web site.

May 17, 2009, Sunday: Day 17, continued:

Carmen's Family
Carmen's family

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Sun, January 31, 2010 6:46 pm     (answered 3 May 2010)
From: "chris l."
Subject: Re: Hello Mr. orange!!!

thanks for getting back with me. Let me just first start off saying I really hope I make your letters section ha ha ha I'm one of your biggest fans. Man I wish I had half of the intelligence you do. I have been reading your sight for so long now and I am amazed at how thorough and precise it is. Reading the letters makes me laugh so hard especially when people say "why don't you get a big book and actually read it", when clearly you have read it because you have quoted like almost the entire book ha ha ha. Oh man good times. I also love how people keep attacking you but can't really refute your arguments because you have built up a air tight argument against AA. Even when i was hard core into AA I would not have said some of the things the people call you and say to you on here. And wishing another alcoholic to relapse is just shameful and disgusting.

Anyways a little about me. I'll try and make it short. I got sent to AA on a second DUI at 23 years old and had clearly known I had a drinking problem long before then but was unable to stop. One drink and I go non-linear as you like to put it, by the way I'm stealing that saying cause i like it if that's OK? ha ha I was sentenced to 90 days jail but when i went to start my sentence the jail was full so I got beach cleanup instead. I was the happiest person ever riding their bike to pick up trash at the beach from 6am-3-pm you have ever seen because anything is better than jail.

Anyway so i met a guy while doing the beach cleanup and i said i had like 40 days sober and he had like 2 years sober he was just cleaning up the wreckage of his past. He asked if i wanted to go to a meeting that night and i said sure. He drove me and when we got there it was a huge men's stag meeting with like 200 guys in it. They were calling people up to the podium to speak and my name got called, I was like WTF. It turns out regulars bring in new people and they don't tell the new guy but he is going to go up and speak. I thought this was rather rude because no one even asked me if i wanted to. Anyway now that i look back at it, it was part of the in doctrine i guess. So I spouted out the typical stuff just so I would be approved. Like "I have to get honest", and "trying to stay teachable", whatever. Anyway so that guy was my sponsor and I was going there for 1 year. Man I feel so stupid after reading your pages because i never even realized how AA is a cult. Wow like really a cult.

Anyway I started noticing weird things but did not really acknowledge them at the time. One example was a guy started coming to the meeting that had 26 years off drugs and alcohol and was a teacher of some kind but had NEVER been to an AA meeting. He realized he was alcoholic very earlier on and just quit.

I remember telling my sponsor "wow that is a long time to be sober" and my sponsor was like "that guys not sober" I thought if you're not sober with 26 years off drugs and alcohol then how long does it take? Now I realize what he meant. Sober is doing 12 steps. Weird.

Anyway in the one year I was at the meeting I saw everything you describe in your pages. 13th stepping, which is disgusting to take advantage of someone when they are messed up and new. My sponsor told his other sponsee to stop taking his medication, that the 12 steps would solve his problems, oh man everything.

Also the smoking thing was hilarious. My sponsor smoked and let's face it — almost 90% of people in AA smoke. I got lucky in that respect — I never started. So to this day it makes me laugh when people who smoke judge someone else's sobriety. I want to be like, "Well you do realize you are taking drugs into your body right now." I could easily tell them, "You bet your ass cigaretes are a mind altering drug. Look it up. So you technically don't even have one day sober," but that's not my style.

Anyway made it to step ten in the 12 steps but nothing was happening in my life. I felt like I was the only one not getting what these people said they were getting. I would pray and wait for the answers to come but sadly no one talked to me from above and I had to make the decisions on my own. Very confusing. I'm like you — I guess I believe in something — it just does not grant me wishes, it did not give me my alcoholism and it cannot take it away. My god is like "Hey I gave you brains to use, use them." Anyway so this is turning out to be really long ha ha let me get to a couple of questions and also the couple good things I like about AA.

So I think your one step is genious. JUST DON'T TAKE THAT FIRST DRINK, NOT EVER NO MATTER WHAT. But I did have a great experience when doing the ninth step. I hated the other steps that made no sense to me but this one seemed human at least. So I had beat up my ex-girlfriend in a drunken night and that was the night we finally broke up. We had been together for 3 years and I had basically drank the whole time. I always told my self I would never hit a girl and thought those people were cowards but it turned out to be me. I make no excuse for what I did just becasue I was drunk. Anyway I attempted suicide after this because I hated myself so much. But when I finally did the ninth step with her it was like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I apologized and She said "It's cool, it was a crazy time for both of us".

Anyways I guess I work two step program. Your first step and then apologize if I run into the people I have hurt. So I wanted to get your opinion on that step specifically? Is it beneficial?

Also I learned HALT in AA which is so funny cause it totally relates to your lizard brain thing. I turned it into HALTS. So if you thinking about drinking your probalby just H-Hungry A-Angry L-Lonely T-Tired or you need some S-Sex.

Also do you have any idea when they will stop sentencing people to AA from courts and stuff? Hello it's against the freaking constitution why do AA people not care about that? Like are they making headway on changing that?

And last question? Oh I went to a Lifering meeting the other night — first non-12 step meeting in Southern California — just started and I loved it. Never even knew they existed 'till I read your page. Thought AA was the only way. :-) It was really funny 'cause it was held in a church 'cause that's the only place they could get a room and when we started laughing about how it was in a church, one of the guys in there was like "ah, the old bait and switch." I literally fell off my seat laughing.

So my last question is you say that if you go to AA meetings you become dependent on them and you have to give the rest of your life to going to the meeting. So I guess I'm wondering is it the same — if you go to one Lifering meeting a week for the rest of your life? Because my biggest problem is I need to meet other people that are sober constantly for the support and also I forget that I am an alcoholic. At least when i go to meeting where people talk about drinking, it makes me remember how embarrasing all the things were that happened in my life due to drinking.

Anyway I hope I can talk to you from time to time. I hope to meet you someday but sadly I don't think that will happen. Anyway I appriciate you getting the truth out there. No matter how much hate mail you get it's worth it in the long run if you get one person out of the cult dogma ha ha (in my oponion)

Also I love the pics of the ducks you have been taking, and are you still sober? I really hope so. Anyway talk to you later

chris 26 years old

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the letter. It says a lot.

Well, to go down the list of questions:

  1. About making amends: I think that can be a good thing. When you clear the air with other people, it lowers the paranoia level. For example, if you owe somebody money, you might be worried about running into him and having him rag on you about getting paid back. But once you have paid him, there is no more worry.

    Similarly, when you clear the air with people about other things, then you don't have to worry about it any more. And you don't have to keep on feeling guilty about it.

    I just wouldn't make it a life-long practice. I mean, some of the more enthusiastic Steppers are constantly examining themselves, just looking for faults to apologize for, and make amends. That can drive you nuts after a while. Just get the big stuff out of the way, and then get on with your life.

    Also, consider whether the other person actually wants you to come and remind them of some bad old times. Sometimes it's better to just let sleeping dogs lie, and forget it.

  2. I like your take on HALT, or HALTS. That sounds about right. Personally, the angry and lonely items never had much effect on me, but the hungry and tired things would soon get the lizard brain yammering about having a cigarette or a beer.

  3. "When they will stop sentencing people to AA from courts?"
    Fat chance. That is the major A.A. recruiting method. They do not care if it is illegal and unConstitutional. It brings more warm bodies in the door. If they stop it, A.A. will really shrink.

    But note that a recent appeals court decision, in Hawaii, I think, declared that if someone sentences you to a religion (like A.A.), you can sue them for it. That includes suing the judge, the parole officer, a therapist or counselor, or anybody else who infringes on your Constitutional rights. That is a really big decision. That may be the beginning of the end of the A.A. coercive recruiting racket.

    This is really big because until now, you could not sue the judge if you did not like his decision. Judges have nearly total immunity from getting sued, no matter how outrageous their rulings may be. But this is a giant exception to the rule. A judge can be sued for sentencing someone to A.A. because the judge is acting improperly and forcing someone into the religion of his choice.

  4. The Lifering thing sounds good. I have never been to a Lifering meeting personally, because they do not have any meetings in this city. But I have exchanged a few letters with them, and they seem like fine people. I would not worry about getting addicted to the meetings. I don't think it works that way. It's just like SMART, where they expect you to go to meetings for a while, and then, when you have learned all that you are going to learn there, you go out and get on with your life.

    But you can come back for the social circle and friendships if you like. There is nothing wrong with that. And those meetings can be a good place to find friends who don't want to party on drugs and alcohol.

    And sure, going to a meeting every so often just for the reminders sounds okay. Reminders are good. I get my reminders from some of the letters that I get.

    The thing about a sensible organization like Lifering is that they are not poisoning your mind with a bunch of cultish misinformation and put-downs and guilt-inducing practices. So I don't think it will hurt you to go to a bunch of Lifering meetings, and even make it a regular habit if you like.

    Some people go bowling every Thursday night, as a matter of habit, and some guys play poker every Saturday night, without fail, and those habits are just what they feel like doing. I wouldn't call any of it an "addiction", really.

  5. Yes, I'm still sober. I have more than nine years clean and sober now — no alcohol, no tobacco, no drugs, no nothing except good Espresso coffee. How sweet it is. My health has improved so much in the last nine years that it is unreal. (Oh yeh, and I just had my annual physical. The doctor did a whole battery of tests on me, and reported that "ALL of your numbers are GREAT!" Literally. That's what he wrote to me, including the capitalization. That's what comes of not smoking cigarettes, and not drinking or drugging, and making some small efforts to take care of my health, like eating better and getting some exercize.)

Have a good day and a good life. And feel free to correspond some more.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If we don't change our course,
**     we'll end up where we're headed.
**       ==  Chinese proverb

Date: Mon, February 8, 2010 7:24 am     (answered 4 May 2010)
From: "Roxanne B."
Subject: New addiction: Orange Papers ;)


I hope this finds you and yours healthy, warm and safe.

Just a note to say you've done a great job with this site, and to say I appreciate your sharing such in-depth research. I followed a link in a post by Angie Jackson (Antitheist Angie); it piqued my interest because I'm an atheist "normie" (though codependent as defined by AA) with a sister in NA. Needless to say, I've been evangelized about the Program nearly as often as the Gospel of Jesus... and remain not merely skeptical, but biased AGAINST the brainwashing of either cult.

So again, thanks very much. I'll be haunting your pages for a while. :) MY addiction, you see, is a compulsion to read the Internet ;)

Best Regards,
Roxanne B.

Hi Roxanne,

Thank you for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are surviving the missionaries.

So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "They say if you play Microsoft CDs backwards, you hear satanic things. But
**     that's nothing, because if you play them forwards, they install Windows."
**       ==  Anonymous

Date: Sun, January 31, 2010 8:21 pm     (answered 5 May 2010)
From: "Steinberger for SMART Recovery"
Subject: Hazelden offers to help the 'spiritually challenged'

I just thought this would be a good addition to your collection of sick slights the 12-steppers perpetrate against those who disagree with them. Someone suggested that perhaps the Hazelden 12-Steppers are 'reality challenged'.

Henry Steinberger, Ph.D. for SMART Recovery Madison


Hazelden Spirituality Press.pdf
Size: 7 M
Type: application/pdf

So, Hazelden is "Reality challenged", huh?. Now that's good.

Okay, I read that PDF file. Wow. That is quite a document. Thanks for a real jewel. That mess of illogical statements and contradictions is something else.

First off, they parrot Bill Wilson's arrogant statements that non-cult-members are "confused" about theological concepts and terminology. Yep, anybody who disagrees with Bill's Buchmanite religion is "confused" and "struggling" with spirituality.

Then they claim that they have a "formula, based on 12-Step wisdom texts" for teaching spirituality. Wonderful! They should open a seminary and train priests. Oh wait, they did, didn't they?

Then they claim that "The presenting addiction problem is lack of power and that defines the solution — power. That power is spiritual and already is part of everyone."

Then, in the next sentence, they make the completely illogical and contradictory statement that "Over-reliance on self blocks them from that power."

Since the power is mine, and is within me, I most assuredly should rely on my self. I mean, I'm not going to learn to rely on the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, not when the power is within me.

Then they use lots of flowery phrases like, "At the Lodge we specialize in renovating our clients' spiritual programs. "

Yes, I guess his spiritual program needs a new roof, some shingles and tar.

Who says that the client even has or wants "a spiritual program"? Some people want to quit drinking and smoking so much and get healthy.

"We help guests rediscover their spirituality."

And to "rediscover" spirituality, I guess they must have already discovered it once, right?

And this is good: The ravings of the pathological liar and incurable narcissist Bill Wilson in the books Alcoholics Anonymous and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions are "wisdom texts". Those Hazelden guys have a real bad case of "true-believer-ism", don't they?

Then they define alcoholism as a "spiritual disease": They claim that their client "Revisits and reinforces the foundation of recovery — an understanding of the three dimensions (mind, body, and spirit) of the disease of alcoholism." == a crazy assertion for which there is not a scrap of real medical evidence. There is no such thing as a "spiritual disease".

Notice all of the nice-sounding fluff words (Glittering Generalities):
"Reconnects, 'sequence of information', action, wisdom, Revisits, rediscovers, reinforces, foundation, understanding, Reintegrates, recovery, Recreates, experience, spiritual..."
You know, it takes some real talent to write such propaganda.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "It is very common for vice to masquerade as virtue."
**     == U.S. Judge Dennis Jacobs,
**     of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals of New York

Date: Mon, February 1, 2010 2:19 pm     (answered 6 May 2010)
From: "Peter S."
Subject: I'm hurting...

Hi Orange. I have been drawing from your site. Not sure if it's strength, anger, resolve, defeat or what... I aways disliked the AA thing. That 1st step is a doozy! After reading and jumping around and taking it it in as best I can, I feel I know myself better and know what it is about AA that bugs me.

Over and above what is killing me...

I married a swell gal in 1998. We were both touring road musicians ready to settle down, but we wanted to keep on playing together — and party together too. We did that for some years, then four years ago in October my wife decided she had taken her last drink. Her dad had done AA so it was a natural for her too. She asked me to join with her but I was not ready and even if I had been, I would not have wanted to go the AA route. Something just did not smell right about it.

Anyway, she joined up and I kept drinking. This past year I was up to a liter of the cheapest bourbon every week to ten days that I could find. It might not sound like much to some, but to a gal who has been four years sober? Attending meetings twice a week? A group leader? A sponsor? A true believer? It was enough to make her want to divorce me. She was terribly hurt by my attitude toward AA. I did not try to hide it from her or lie about my feelings. Maybe I should have. Maybe I should have just held my nose and gone steppin' with her....

Now she's divorcing me. We have a six year old son... I have been sober since August 27th 2009. But it's not enough. I'm doing it the wrong way! I'm a "dry drunk". I don't believe in AA and even if I went to meetings — (Actually I do. I always say, "Hi I'm Pete and I'm a dry drunk") — I can't tell her because she would be pissed that I was doing it to try to save our marriage and not just for me... It was not just my drinking either. It was step 4. She did her fearless moral inventory and it led her to the conclusion that we are too fundamentally different in our basic personalities — that we never would have gotten married in the first place if we had not been drunk...

The final piece of the puzzle? The bass player in her current band has a marriage that's falling apart because his wife is drinking destructively. I don't know if the guy is a drinker himself or a member of the fellowship. I don't know if he's in Al-Anon. But you see where this is going? He told her about his troubles, she told him about hers and of course that naturally leads to an affair... It doesn't sound like the classic 13th step, but it doesn't have to. It's bad enough whatever you call it.

Oh my Dog I'm fucked up about this! I can't change her mind. I can't get her to see the that if there is to be future for us and most importantly for our innocent son, that she has to forget about the past. But something has clicked inside her and she has gotten are hard nosed and prickly. I can't even point out something as obviously messed up as the fact that when she told me about this guy and the fact that now she wanted a divorce, she was sucking down tokes of pot to calm her nerves! I think I'll tell her sponsor about it. It would be at about the same level of maturity...

Please Orange. Words man, words. I need some wisdom. I can control my drinking but I can't control the AA person she has become. It worked for her and that's good, but it is savaging me... and my poor son...


Hello Pete,

Sorry to take so long to answer — I've been homeless and looking for a new place to live, due to a draconian new property management company driving me out of my apartment. But I have a nice new place to live now, so I'm back to answering letters.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I think that you actually answered your own question in one of the last lines of your letter:
"I can control my drinking but I can't control the AA person she has become."

Exactly. That is the hell of relationships. You cannot control the other person. You can only control yourself, and hope that things will work out okay with the other person. But the other person can do whatever she feels like doing.

Still, I'm not saying that all is lost. She could still wake up, although the odds are not good.

I think it might help to learn some techniques for awakening cult members. Steven Hassan wrote two books about that, called Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, and Combatting Cult Mind Control. I have mentioned them before, several times, and described some useful things in them, and the list of those descriptions is here.

Good luck, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The common dogma [of fundamentalists] is fear of
**  modern knowledge, inability to cope with the fast
**  change in a scientific-technological society, and
**  the real breakdown in apparent moral order in recent
**  years.... That is why hate is the major fuel, fear
**  is the cement of the movement, and superstitious
**  ignorance is the best defense against the dangerous
**  new knowledge. ... When you bring up arguments that
**  cast serious doubts on their cherished beliefs you
**  are not simply making a rhetorical point, you are
**  threatening their whole Universe and their immortality.
**  That provokes anger and quite frequently violence. ...
**  Unfortunately you cannot reason with them and you
**  even risk violence in confronting them. Their numbers
**  will decline only when society stabilizes, and
**  adapts to modernity.
**      ==  G. Gaia

Date: Tue, February 2, 2010 10:02 pm     (answered 6 May 2010)
From: "frank t."
Subject: a book " the twelve preciepts of AA"

Thank You for giving me actual proof that other human beings see through the bullshit

While in jail in Rockland Me. 1987, I came across The twelve Preciepts of AA.

That summer I became aware of this viel of darkness permeating the country.

It was Bush vs Duckakis, and this was the first attempt of national brainwashing that I was aware of.

I had settled into a Hindu philosophy of evolving through higher states of consciousness. That there was no "evil" and the conflicts of humanity was do to ignorance, and the planet would eventually evolve into a state of Nirvana.

The summer of 87,I was aware of this energy, "a dark energy" materializing around me. Everything was co -opted by this energy, the press, radio, television. I thought that I really lost my mind, even family and friends were alien to me.

For some reason my energy and the energy of those around me was like water and oil. Individuals and groups of people were so hostile , I thought that I would be killed. Just for speaking my mind with respect to the election, or evangelical

Christianity, or human values such as justice, economic justice, bigotry, it was totally directed to me. I experimented

To make sure I wasn't delusional, it was accurate.

So I decided to travel to Vinalhaven Me. an island off the coast of Rockland. I figured that if sanity was to be found it would be among lobstermen eight miles off the mainland. As I traveled up the coast I could see this darkness spreading

up the coast as I drove.

I was wrong, I wound up in jail, even my cell mates were affected.

So I found the Twelve Precepts, in an obscure small time jailhouse that had magazines ten years old , a lot of Christian

Books and AA material coming out of the ying yang.

I was not a devote' of AA , two years earlier a motorcycle gang leader that I sold pot was busted.

He owed me money so I waited a year and one half until he came out to talk to him.

He had become a penacostal minister, and AA rising star. He told me that I was the devil, and he didn't have to pay me because it was ill-gotten gains. I had too many other things going on , I could not jeopardize them ,fucking with this guy.

The whole point of this is , how did a tough Motorcycle scumbag become a preacher, and AA superstar in a year.

So I knew all about AA and their ability to brainwash, what amazed me was their lack of selectivity in the people that represented them.

The answer I found in The Twelve precepts.




In the pages that described how this group was able to infiltrate the organization of AA and take it over , without anybody knowing, they spelled it out completely.

These people accumulated through AA and other help groups ( AA is one of many groups that are associated at the top,

but remain invisible and appear to be independent of each other) their prey is the misfits of society, they are set up to capture the most vulnerable among us.

This capturing has been going on through all levels of society and government institutions for at least sixty years in this country. The people who were managing World War II , came to the U.S.to finish what was started in Europe .

I'm sure the lineage goes all the way back to the agreement with jehovah.

This country is close to being checkmated, from my position the only thing that will prevent it is "CITIZEN CENTRAL"

Sorry for leaving some for you to explore , but I have been dealing with this shit since 1987.I'm tired of banging by head against the wall for fellow human beings, I had made my last appeal in Commondreams .org a couple of days ago under the name urganda. I don't like bad guys winning, but who knows maybe the species in ordained for extinction.

I come from another time and space, this is not my gig I'm just passing through.

Hello Frank,

Well, the way I see it, either of two things is happening:

  1. When you see the darkness and the dark energy materializing, closing in around you, and permeating everything, it is time to see a doctor. It isn't a matter of being crazy, it's a matter of brain chemicals being out of balance, shoving you into a paranoid state. Please, see a doctor.

  2. You may be undergoing a spiritual awakening — an increase of awareness — but your new vision is tinted by negative thoughts.

    Many years ago, back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, a character named Art Kleps founded what he called "The Neo-American Church", and he called himself "The Chief Boohoo" of the church. In spite of his joking approach to organization, he had some great things to say. One of his essays talked about what he called "the Plot/plot". He said that as you awaken, you begin to see the interconnectedness of everything in the Universe, and you see the Cosmic Coincidentality of so many events. You begin to see that everything is part of some great plan. But you can interpret that in either of two ways:

    1. If you are in a positive frame of mind, you see it all as a Divine Plan where everything fits in just right, and the Universe is unfolding just as it should, like a rose blooming. That is the "Plot", with a capital 'P'.
    2. Or, if you are in a negative frame of mind, you see it all as a gigantic evil conspiracy, a nefarious plot (lower-case 'p'), where everybody is working together to do bad things and create Hell on Earth.

    You are seeing the same events in both cases, but your interpretation of them is completely different, just the opposite, and hence, what you think you are seeing is different.

So which is it? I don't know. It could even be a little of both. Chemical imbalances in the brain can also cause heightened awareness. Ask any old acid-head (like me). So please see a doctor, to make sure that the brain chemistry is okay, and then get some practice that gets you meditating or thinking about positive things each day. It may be very hard to believe, but just a slight shift in your viewpoint can suddenly have you standing in the Light, with all of the love of the universe streaming down on you.

Nevertheless, I have to agree with some of your observations, like, "how did a tough Motorcycle scumbag become a preacher, and AA superstar in a year"?

Yeh, really...

I wish you health and happiness. So have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."
**      — Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

[The next letter in this chain is here.]

Date: Mon, February 8, 2010 9:30 am     (answered 6 May 2010)
From: "Happy 2 Be Me"
Subject: Intervention for AA brainwashed hubby


I was wondering if there is some way I can have an intervention done on my husband who has been brainwashed by AA.... is there some kind of book I can give to him or handout or even a group I can take him to that might explain things to him. OR is there something you can suggest I do to help save my husband from the AA cult?

One thing I noticed since my husband has been involved with AA for the past three years is that most all people who are in AA end up getting divorced from their spouses or the spouses get involved in the other 12 step programs..... but if NOT divorce is the only answer.

Please help me..... I have been married for 24 years and can't bear to see my husband lose his mind to AA.

Thanks for your help

Rose H.

Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
~ Margaret Mead

Hello Rose,

Thanks for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles.

The word "intervention" puts me off, because I haven't seen any evidence that they work. They seem to cause a lot more harm than good. What seems to work best is letting people slowly go through their changes themselves, rather than trying to force the issue.

That does not mean that there aren't things that you can do.

This line sounds so true: ...most all people who are in AA end up getting divorced from their spouses or the spouses get involved in the other 12 step programs..... but if NOT divorce is the only answer.

Yes, I've been seeing the same thing too. A.A. is better at causing divorces than at causing sobriety. People write to me, and tell me their stories, and the list of A.A.-caused divorces is just constantly growing.

And yet, Bill Wilson had the gall to write this piece of fantasy in his second book:

Permanent marriage breakups and separations, however, are unusual in A.A.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 117.

I think it might help to learn some techniques for awakening cult members. Steven Hassan wrote two books about that, called Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, and Combatting Cult Mind Control. I have mentioned them before, several times, and described some useful things in them, and the list of those descriptions is here. So follow that link, and you will get several suggestions for how to work with someone who is cult-indoctrinated. It may help.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     You can't convince a believer of anything; for
**     their belief is not based on evidence, it's based
**     on a deep seated need to believe.
**        ==  Carl Sagan

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Last updated 26 April 2012.
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